RE: by jayneisagirlsname

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

RE:

POSTED BY: JAYNEISAGIRLSNAME
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 14:34
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Monday, January 30, 2006 1:24 PM

JFANJ

tis a mystery about zoe.

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Monday, January 30, 2006 1:27 PM

GRIZWALD

Quote:
Originally posted by jayneisagirlsname:
... except that she was raised on a spaceship (right? or am I imagining that?)...]

You're not imagining it. She and Wash discussed it in Heart of Gold.

Other than that, I don't know any background. I don't think any of the Independents were soldiers, particularly. I always think they were farmers, ranchers, business people, teachers, craftspeople. Folk, in other words. Folk who had an independent spirit (the same spirit that led them to head out to the outer colonies in the first place) that prevented them from kowtowing to just anybody who claimed to know better than they did.

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Monday, January 30, 2006 2:06 PM

GRIZWALD

Quote:
Originally posted by jayneisagirlsname:
Is this from the Visual Companion? Or is whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry stating their opinion as fact?

I'll be interested to see the answer to this, too. I - even I, newbie that I am - have found myself making corrections to obvious booboos on Wikipedia about Firefly.

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Monday, January 30, 2006 2:07 PM

DONCOAT

Yes, the VC's "Brief History of the Universe" (Joss' preproduction memo) says that Zoe was career Army.

It doesn't say whose army, though. Maybe it was like the Civil War in the US -- when the Southern states seceded, individual soldiers in the US Army had to choose whether to stay or go. Robert E. Lee was one who went -- Lincoln asked him to command the Union army, but he stuck with his allegience to Virginia.

So I'm thinking there may have been a single standing army for the Alliance before the war -- possibly made up of units from each planet -- and when war came, independence-minded soldiers left to fight on the other side.

Might make a nice bit of background right there...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Monday, January 30, 2006 2:27 PM

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

I like Doncoat's explaination. Sounds very logical.

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

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Monday, January 30, 2006 2:29 PM

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

I like Doncoat's explaination. Sounds very logical.

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

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Monday, January 30, 2006 7:26 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
I like Doncoat's explaination. Sounds very logical.

It is very logical. The only thing wrong with it is that it’s impossible.

According to the “Brief History” in the Visual Companion, the opening narration of the BDM, countless anecdotes in the series, and the very name of the war itself (the War to Unite the Planets), the conflict was not a rebellion, a secession, or a civil war. Rather, it was an Alliance invasion of the “Independent” worlds on the border. I imagine (though this is just speculation) that the Independents were like the Allies in WWII, a collection of various nations struggling against one big scary one. So, the War to Unite the Planets was the Alliance’s attempt to conquer (I’m sure they’d say “liberate”) the Independent planets and “unify” humanity under their supposedly benevolent control. Thus, the Independents were never a part of the Alliance until after the big war, and then only reluctantly.

That point being made, Doncoat is right in that Zoe must have been career military in a pre-existing army, but it couldn’t have been the Alliance so it must have been some border world military (maybe Shadow? Since Mal volunteered and ended up in her unit. Or maybe by the time Mal volunteered he could join up with any Independent unit).

Oh, and finally, the “career military” reference was made not just in the Visual Companion but also in one of the deleted scenes on the Serenity DVD, where the Operative is researching Mal with the Ensign’s help.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 12:57 AM

AERIN

When did Zoe say she was raised on a space ship? It sounds a little familiar, but I didn't see it in Heart of Gold. Just Zoe and Wash talking about having a baby.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:52 AM

PURPLEBELLY

From shooting script:

Quote:
WASH
And this beautiful baby of ours, you
don't mine that it's going to grow up
on a spaceship?

ZOE
Worked fine for me.

You aren't alone if you missed it from the broadcast episode

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 4:12 AM

TAISHAN

One thing I'm confused about though, if Zoe was career military and Mal only joined up because of the war, how did he end up outranking her?

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 4:47 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Can we conjecture a career ceiling for black women that is not present for white cattle-barons?

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 4:57 AM

CYBERSNARK

Not in the middle of losing a shooting war (when you're like to need every skilled warrior you've got). Least, I can't. Definitely can't imagine Mal having anything to do with it.

Maybe Zoe turned down a promotion or two.

On another thread like this, folks conjectured about Zoe being a space-samurai (trained and conditioned for a certain function --which would explain her stoic, hyper-competent nature). Also, the independents employing sp-samurai would mesh well with both the samurai-like segmentata armour on Mal & Zoe's space suits (which I assume are military surplus), and a possible reference to The Magnificent Seven (a western based on a samurai movie, making it uniquely suited to the 'verse).

We also tossed around the idea of her being a genetically engineered trooper (bred for grunt work and readily-available cannon-fodder).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 5:00 AM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by TaiShan:
One thing I'm confused about though, if Zoe was career military and Mal only joined up because of the war, how did he end up outranking her?

Mal inspires a lot more courage and has more leadership capabilities than Zoe. While Zoe is a much better soldier, Mal is a much better leader. That's likely also why Zoe has no problem with Mal outranking her--during the war, or on the ship.

Just because he's a volunteer doesn't make him less significant, or less of a soldier. He just had something else to do before the war broke out. The vast majority of browncoats were volunteers; so that a good many of those volunteers got higher ranks (especially seeing as they died quickly) ain't too surprising.

Quote:
and a possible reference to The Magnificent Seven (a western based on a samurai movie, making it uniquely suited to the 'verse).

The entire episode Heart of Gold is itself a variation on Seven Samurai as well. That plot's been remade so many time, it's just that good. KF

~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 8:45 AM

AGENTROUKA

I also think it's worth considering that neither Zoe nor Mal were very old when joining up with the Independents.

The flashback in "Safe" with the little Simon and River takes place 11 years pre-series, meaning 5 years before Serenity Valley, and yet little River referrences an "Independent Squad", which implies that the war was either already started or about to.

Mal and Zoe are both in their early thirties on the show. 11 years before, they were anywhere from 19 to 21, and personally I favor the former.

Zoe was a career soldier for one or two years, Mal joined up not much past what we consider highschool-leaving age.

(Provided they joined up right when the war started.)

These were not much more than kids when they started fighting, so I doubt that they had much of a life beforehand to be curious about. :)

Beyond Farmboy Mal and Transport-Ship-Brat-turned-Soldier Zoe, I mean.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 9:25 AM

TAISHAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kizyr:
Quote:
Originally posted by TaiShan:
One thing I'm confused about though, if Zoe was career military and Mal only joined up because of the war, how did he end up outranking her?

Mal inspires a lot more courage and has more leadership capabilities than Zoe. While Zoe is a much better soldier, Mal is a much better leader. That's likely also why Zoe has no problem with Mal outranking her--during the war, or on the ship.

Just because he's a volunteer doesn't make him less significant, or less of a soldier. He just had something else to do before the war broke out. The vast majority of browncoats were volunteers; so that a good many of those volunteers got higher ranks (especially seeing as they died quickly) ain't too surprising.

~KF

I'm not trying to make it seem that he's less significant. Only that the military, and militaries in general, seem to be sticklers for ranks, time served and such. They just don't hand out ranks like that, so the fact that he was a volunteer just makes it seem weirder to me, especially since at war times they are not as properly trained as they have to be into battle as soon as possible. The only thing I could figure is that he recieved commendations for or such for something else and was able to jump ranks because of it.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:11 AM

PURPLEBELLY

How about a political solution? Posit Zoe as a junior scion of a military dynasty that have otherwise stayed with the Alliance. The Independents' commissars contrive not only to keep her in a lowly rank, but also to post her to a unit of volunteer zealots which is habitually sent into situations with few return tickets. There's no evidence for any of this, of course, but it would set up future encounters with surviving members of Zoe's family -- a staple of post-Civil War narratives.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:22 AM

HERA7

I see Zoe is/was a tough stealth, scout, recon type soldier before and during the war. Her actions and comments in the flashbacks in The Message give clues about her status. Rarely do these types of soldiers raise high in rank, to be promoted, you have to be noticed.

Mal was flashy and a proven natural leader, so he made sergant quickly. Except for War Stories, Zoe is always in a supporting role. Zoe thinks tacticly, Mal thinks stratgicly.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:21 PM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Hera7:
I see Zoe is/was a tough stealth, scout, recon type soldier before and during the war. Her actions and comments in the flashbacks in The Message give clues about her status. Rarely do these types of soldiers raise high in rank, to be promoted, you have to be noticed.

I'm reminded of the D&D joke about high-level assassins:

"You don't see many high-level assassins."
"Of course not. You don't get to be a high-level assassin by being seen."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:34 PM

REGINAROADIE

Actually, the whole SEVEN SAMURAI thing that was part of "Heart of Gold" was one of the things that , IMHO, made it one of the more weaker eps. FIREFLY already did the "protect the village from the marauders" plotline in an earlier ep (the beginning of "Our Mrs. Reynolds"). In that case, it had a creative twist to it, and they got rid of it as quickly as possible to get to the real story of that ep. But it seems like with "Heart of Gold", they were already rehashing plotlines, and in a generic fashion.

I dunno. The only rehash of SEVEN SAMURAI that I liked, other than MAGNIFICENT SEVEN, was A BUG'S LIFE, because it had bugs in it and the "warriors" were actually circus bugs.

"What's the point in going out there? They'll only laugh at me."
"THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE A CLOWN!!!"
"Noooo, it's because I'm a PROP. You only cast me as the broom, the pole, the stick (dramatically) a splinter."
"You're a walking stick. IT'S FUNNY. NOW GO."
"You parasite."

and then later

(incredibly dry and sarcastic) Tra la la la la. Spring is in the air. And I'm a flower, with nothing interesting to say."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"YES!!!I'm a man posessed by many demons....Polite demons that would open the door for a lady carrying too many parcels...BUT DEMONS NONETHELESS!!!! Yes. I have walked along the path of evil many times, it's a twisting, curving path that..actually leads to a charming plot garden, BUT BEYOND THAT EVIL!!!"

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