No aliens in the 'Verse...How do you feel? by BWare42

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

No aliens in the 'Verse...How do you feel?

POSTED BY: BWARE42
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 7, 2006 17:25
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 15735
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Saturday, February 4, 2006 2:29 AM

i like how Joss puts it... 'i can make humans more scary than anything made of latex' (or something like that). Also on firefly talk they do a whole segment on it, i can't sactly put my finger on wat episode but its an earlier one, and they nail it. In that by adding Aliens it only detracts from the overall story. People fins it hard to sympaphise with aliens, make em human, bang suddenly we stay up at night hoping we don't get attackde by angery people with major facial problems.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:13 AM

MYCROFTXXX

To me, it makes the whole Whedon 'verse more believable. Yes, I do think there is non earth-that-was intelligent life out there but the laws of probability are heavily stacked against us ever making contact with one let alone a whole galaxy of them. Read or listen to (unabridged edition) Bill Bryson's book "A Brief History of Nearly Everything" or seriously read Carl Sagan's non-fiction writing and you'll understand why aliens aren't in our future.

While on the subject of finding the new 'verse so refreshing, the fact that they don't have FTL drives is another aspect of the show I enjoy. This wasn't obvious when the series first aired (the Firefly acceleration "oil slick" effect looks a lot like other shows' FTL "engage" effect).

So, this brings it down to just one (two maybe) "suspensiion of belief" issues I can handle about the new 'verse. First is the plethora of planets (and moons) we were able to terraform in one star system. This would take some serious technology that goes beyond just making huge "atmospheric processors" as they would say in Alien(s). It would involve diddling with gravity on a grand scale, something that's obviously been conquered in the future (source of Serenity's propulsion perhaps?). Also, planets circle the star at several different orbits meaning the amount of energy they receive differs considerably. This one might be feasible but I'd question it.

Okay, enough about hard science issues, I love the show and as long as the 'verse's "fantastic-future" issues are only the ones mentioned I'll remain very happy with the way the 'verse works.

As far as aliens. If one wrinkled foreheaed critter shows up in a BDS, BDE2 I'll be VERY disappointed!

P.S. the 'verse and BSG also share this aspect of no aliens other than the ones they made (their's, Cylons, ours Reavers) but they do have FTL. However, their FTL is much more believable than "other" sci-fi shows.

Sorry for the long response. You ask an author a question and this is what you get.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:31 AM

BJORNJOHANSSON

There is aliens in the universe, and I believe its just a matter of time before we meet some. To bad I dont think it will happen in the next 1000 years.

But it is possible that aliens already is under investigation by area 51. www.belowtopsecret.com has some interesting things about it.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:44 AM

JONUS

Before Firefly I was into Star Wars and Farscape. Their 'verses had millions of different species of aliens and it was hard to remember 'em all. Too many aliens in my opinion.

I think no aliens in Firefly is more believable. I mean if there's aliens I don't think they'd be right next door - right on the planet or in the solar system next to us. I think our galaxy is a human galaxy.

Mal would kick Han Solo's ass.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:46 AM

BJORNJOHANSSON

Yeah I think thats good for this serie too. No aliens, but what is the thing that eats the humans? with their big ships, dont remember the anmes of them.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:49 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflynutter:
i like how Joss puts it... 'i can make humans more scary than anything made of latex' (or something like that).

I think that's because of two things, one is that humans are scary, the other is that humans are us.

The thing that disturbs me most about the Holocaust isn't what happened, but who did it. Ordinary human beings did all of those things. Normal people. Some of them might have been crazy but the vast majority of the Nazis were completely sane.

The ability to do the worst things we can think of lies within all of us and that is, to me that is even more scary than the actual things being done.

Whenever you look at a murderer, a tyrant, a mass murderer, or anyone else doing things that make you want to retch and would keep you up at night you have to realize, on some level, that that person is just like you. That you are fully capable of being that person and everything that one does you could do.

Quote:
People fins it hard to sympaphise with aliens, make em human, bang suddenly we stay up at night hoping we don't get attackde by angery people with major facial problems.

One of the best things in Alien: Resurrection, I thought, was that when the newborn dies you feel sorry for it.

To make that happen they had to give it a mostly human face (making it human a bit) but even so they made you have sympathy for something that is definitely alien, something that isn't just a person with facial problems.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:59 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by mycroftxxx:
As far as aliens. If one wrinkled foreheaed critter shows up in a BDS, BDE2 I'll be VERY disappointed!

Let me ask you something, if wrinkled forheaded critters did show up in the verse would you really believe they were aliens?

With body modification today people end up looking like all kinds of things, I don't think it would be hard to believe a group of people all formed themselves into a "new race" I wouldn't even had trouble believing that those people actually believed they were aliens.

So, if I took that into account, and a funny looking person showed up the most logical conclusion would be that it was a funny looking person.

I didn't think of that until just now.

(I'm not saying I want the funny looking person, Reavers are more than enough, I'm just saying that if someone who looked like a person in makeup came up and said, "Hi I'm an alien," my first response wouldn't be, "So you are," and that holds for the 'verse too.)

Quote:
Sorry for the long response. You ask an author a question and this is what you get.

Maybe that's why I always have so much to say. Especially since at this point I'm a failed author, I haven't been able to write fiction in so long, perhaps all of the pent up writing is being channeled out here.

I hope for the sake of you all that isn't the case, I was working on novels.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:17 AM

MYCROFTXXX

Bumpy foreheads are already found in today's counter culture statement. Like tatooing and body piercing, how long until it becomes mainstream?

Come to think of it Reavers "cutting all over their face" could be just an extreme case of this but I don't think so. Maybe its Joss' subtle statement on today's social scene.

Regarding, authorship... actually, I write technical books about computer aided design. My publisher still calls me an author 'cause I earn royalties on my books instead of getting paid up front (a mild form of slave labor). "Writers" are often work-for-hire types--but not always. Kinda like Jayne without the weapons.

As with all writers/authors I've got several fiction ideas and some even partially underway. Whether they ever see the light of day is another story.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "failed author" unless you are under contract with a publisher, don't deliver the goods and they cancel your contract. Kinda like Mal and Niska only not so much. It just sometimes feels like it! But, of course it has never happened to me, I just bumped my head is all...

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:19 AM

CAPTBRYAN

I think we are Alien enough to our own world and peoples in our world...Why confound the problem?

If there were Aliens out there I honestly believe they would steer clear of us or if we got in thier way we would stand no chance.Well I say we stand no chance because we would just fight amongst ourselves and the Aleins would sit back in Horror or Laughter and let us do the work for them.

If they wanted to be friends some Lunatic Fringe person would ruin that soooo...

I believe we are it folks...

If you believe in evolution then you already know the chances of life coming to being,so be honest with yourself.

If you believe in Creation then you know the answer aready.

But it is fun to Imagine other life forms diffirent from our own...

Saying that God authored confusion by creating Lucifer is like saying my sniper rifle goes out all by itself and shoots people 2 miles away so I dont get into trouble.

Ridin the Ocean's boring when there aint no waves

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:46 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by mycroftxxx:
BTW, there is no such thing as a "failed author" unless you are under contract with a publisher, don't deliver the goods and they cancel your contract.

I got 92,534 words (isn't word count great?) into the thing that care about more than anything else (in writing I mean) that've ever worked on or thought of. Then I couldn't go any further, I simply didn't know what happened after that.

The usual suggestion is that you go back and read what you have so far, I did that and realized that every single thing after 43,800 words (isn't word count great?) was crap.

That's more than half of it, and I still can't write anything new.

I call that failure.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:50 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBryan:
If you believe in evolution then you already know the chances of life coming to being,so be honest with yourself.

If you believe in Creation then you know the answer aready.

Exactly. And the answer both ways is yes.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 5:19 AM

MYCROFTXXX

Quote:
I got 92,534 words (isn't word count great?) into the thing that care about more than anything else (in writing I mean) that've ever worked on or thought of. Then I couldn't go any further, I simply didn't know what happened after that...

...I call that failure.

A few words of encouragement and a suggestion or two. Unless you are writing for a magazine or newspaper where word count is important, don't obssess on this. Instead, return to why you started writing the story and just write "until you are done". Another thing... when I get stuck (as do all writers/authors) it sometimes helps to go back and "kill your children". This is a rather creepifying way of saying re-read what you've written and remove those parts of your prose that doesn't move your story along. This often gets you back to the "oh yeah, that's where I was going with this..." mode. In everything I read or hear about/from Joss, he's a big fan of this and it shows (and one of the big reasons I love this 'verse).

Don't quit... Joss didn't and look what he gave us!

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 5:47 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by mycroftxxx:
A few words of encouragement and a suggestion or two. Unless you are writing for a magazine or newspaper where word count is important, don't obssess on this.

I'm not obsessing actually, I just have the ability to say, "I got this far," with the push of a button so I figure why not use it?

Quote:
Instead, return to why you started writing the story and just write "until you are done".

That's always been my plan

Quote:
Another thing... when I get stuck (as do all writers/authors) it sometimes helps to go back and "kill your children". This is a rather creepifying way of saying re-read what you've written and remove those parts of your prose that doesn't move your story along.

That's something I really can't do, at least not in that way, the story is told in first person and the character telling it dwells on things that don't move the story along, sort of like how in Firefly you can have things where it's just them being them and then it works it's way into moving the story along.

I know that that would turn a lot of people off and prevent me from selling it and getting rich, but I never planned on that in the first place (I'm not completely insane.)

I'm writing the story to tell the story, nothing more and certainly nothing less. The story is from the perspective of someone who slows down the narrative and throws in pointless details, sometimes it annoys even me but it is part of who the character is and if I took it out it would change him in a fundamental way.

That's probably the thing I like most and least about first person. Once you decide who is telling the story you don't get to tell it the way you want, you have to tell it the way the character would.

Quote:
Don't quit... Joss didn't and look what he gave us!

While I maintain that I've failed I haven't given up. Kind of an odd thing but it's true.

Just like the characters in Firefly are real to all of us the ones in my story are real to me, I owe it to them to keep trying even though I've already lost.

Can't just leave them hanging.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 5:48 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sorry to everyone for getting this so off topic.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 6:11 AM

MYCROFTXXX

Ditto.

Back on-topic now... In response to whether other life forms are out there versus the "No aliens in the 'verse", if you follow some of the science writings, statistically, there is a high degree of probability there are other intelligent life forms out there just not close by. The SETI project is proof that at least a few scientists believe this (as do I).

Now, given that when humanity left the earth-that-was, it was at somewhat less than the speed of light (but close to it) so this limits the range of where we settled. If there had been aliens in the area, SETI would most likely have picked them up before the diaspora. It would only take a few hundred light years for their signal to travel which greatly increases the odds of finding them. Much greater than, say, intelligence in the Magellanic Clouds (tens if not hundreds of light years away).

More likely we'd run into non-sentient life forms (lichens come to mind) that we probably drove extinct when we terraformed their planets and moons. Apparently, the Sierra Club didn't make the journey to the new 'verse.

BTW, I _hope_ aliens like the Klingons don't stumble into our cherished 'verse. We'd be a footnote in their history at best (thanks for doing all this terraforming for us, now die!

)

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 10:59 AM

CYBERSNARK

To the writers: anyone try outlining? I find that having the "skeleton" helps me keep the unecessary fat to a minimum. I just start point-forming ideas, then throwing in more ideas, then adding cool scenes/lines, bridging them together and suddenly --hey, this isn't an outline, it's a finished story.

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
humanity just has to play with itself forever.

*snerk*

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 11:07 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
humanity just has to play with itself forever.
*snerk*

*snort* *stifles reply*

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 11:42 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBryan:

... Well I say we stand no chance because we would just fight amongst ourselves and the Aliens would sit back in Horror or Laughter and let us do the work for them.

Hmm, I think we're pretty much right there, now. :)

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 11:50 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBryan:

... Well I say we stand no chance because we would just fight amongst ourselves and the Aliens would sit back in Horror or Laughter and let us do the work for them.

Hmm, I think we're pretty much right there, now. :)

Has it never occurred to anyone that aliens could be just as screwed up as us? There is no way to know how different physical and cultural evolutions would effect a species, but why does everyone seem to assume that we alone have exclusive rights to chaos and infighting?

I mean greed and hatred has allowed human beings to become the dominant species on earth maybe that's what evolution is? (Depressing thought huh?)

I'm not saying that is the way things are I'm just saying that the assumption that anyone we come across will be saner and less screwed up than ourselves seems like wishful thinking to me.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 12:37 PM

CAPTBRYAN

OKay Agreed... It does seems that if there are other life forms out there they would be as screwed up as us...OR worse

Now if they are able to travel intersteller like now ... Then by the time we get to do that we would be a threat to them then...

UUuummm...did that make sense?

So why not blow us to kingdom come now?Be done with it before we become a problem.

Saying that God authored confusion by creating Lucifer is like saying my sniper rifle goes out all by itself and shoots people 2 miles away so I dont get into trouble.

Ridin the Ocean's boring when there aint no waves

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 1:18 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBryan:

... Well I say we stand no chance because we would just fight amongst ourselves and the Aliens would sit back in Horror or Laughter and let us do the work for them.

Hmm, I think we're pretty much right there, now. :)

Has it never occurred to anyone that aliens could be just as screwed up as us? There is no way to know how different physical and cultural evolutions would effect a species, but why does everyone seem to assume that we alone have exclusive rights to chaos and infighting?

Hey there, Mr. cynic, :)

I think it requires a certain level of organization and absence of chaos to venture out into place to try and meet new people. :) That's why Klingons, as a species, are so unrealistic: they're way too chaotic to be plausible aliens (well, bad example, actually, as Klingons, in the strictest sense, are not aliens, but Reavers; but I'll leave that for another time).

Waxing serious, for a moment, what it so brilliant about FireFly/Serenity, is that is HAS a monster; but a very slick one. Not a drooling madman, like, say, the bad guy in Highlander, but a smooth and educated human man; the one y'all know as The Operative:

"There's no place for me there, any more than there is for you. Malcolm. I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

Skipping to the brilliancy part, our Monster actually has a better understanding of humanity than, say, Dr. Mathias. Because The Operative understands that Simon acted out of Love, whereas Dr. Mathias was stupified by it.

Now, see, that's more scary than an alien! And something a good deal more dangerous.

P.S. See? I can make a post without mentioning River! :)

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:06 PM

GIXXER

I feel relieved.

However, there may indeed be aliens out there, but they probably don't have FTL drive, or Gawdelpus, we might actually be the more advanced civilisation...

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:41 PM

JAYSONAYCH

While I think one cannot discount the possiblity of other life on other planets given the vastness of the universe, planets capable of supporting life in a similar sense to how it happens on Earth would be extremely rare compared to the lifeless rocks floating out there, given how perfect conditions on such planets would have to be. Some of those planets probably wouldn't support terribly complex life, and those that did may not at this time support intelligent life advanced enough to travel around in starships. The chances of such life being in close enough proximity to interact with it even within the next 600 years is very slim. So I have no problem with the 'Verse not containing any alien life. It's actually very refreshing when compared to some sci-fi shows like "Star Trek" where a completely new intelligent alien race is introduced every episode. I'm not questioning the validity of the universes of that show and other shows, but having humans in Firefly/Serenity as the only intelligent life does give the show an easy-to-relate-to grounding that sets it apart from other shows.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 5:55 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by JaysonAych:
It's actually very refreshing when compared to some sci-fi shows like "Star Trek" where a completely new intelligent alien race is introduced every episode.

Just want to point out, for no reason at all, that some of those races were damn good. I think the line, "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra," will be with me forever though I don't actually know how to spell it.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 7:33 PM

TIPPY

I will forever be a fan of "Star Trek". And there is no question in my mind, that there is life on other planets out there.......waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay the heck out there. Having said that, one of the many reasons I love "Firefly" is because there are no aliens. You can barley find a futuristic science fiction TV show or movie that doesn't have aliens in it. "Firefly" is refreshing in that way.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 7:37 PM

JAYSONAYCH

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by JaysonAych:
It's actually very refreshing when compared to some sci-fi shows like "Star Trek" where a completely new intelligent alien race is introduced every episode.

Just want to point out, for no reason at all, that some of those races were damn good. I think the line, "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra," will be with me forever though I don't actually know how to spell it.

This is very much true, and that was a very interesting episode...and I hope what I said wasn't interpreted as a bash at "Star Trek." I enjoyed every iteration of the series at one point or another. But the constant addition of new races so frequently in the show, IMO, required some suspension of disbelief, at least on my part.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 9:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I just wanted to weigh in with something that I hope will give a little perspective to the whole "where are all the aliens?" spiel, both on the show and in real life...

This is a LOOOOOONNNNNGGG post, so feel free to skip it. It's also an oversimplified way of looking at things, in the interest of keeping it from being even longer, and because frankly, I'm just not that bright. :)

Let's look at things from a Big Picture point of view. Religious viewpoints and beliefs aside, our best scientific evidence says that our universe is roughly 16-20 billion years old, depending on who you ask, and when you ask them. Even the margin of error in that timeline is enough time to let a world form out of the nothingness, cool down, attract a moon, develop oceans, an atmosphere, and life. And pizza! :)

Okay, given such an overwhelmingly stupendous, really just amazingly big stretch of time, you have a lot of opportunities for aliens to develop (be Created by their Maker, evolve, thrust themselves into this mortal coil, or whatever you choose to believe). Best guesses say the Earth is around 4.5 billion years old, but that not even the most basic life forms started here until over 1.5 billion years into that span. Sooooo... you had basically a 13-17 billion year time period BEFORE there was life on Earth (intelligent or otherwise) where you might have had intelligent life roaming all through the galaxies getting up to no good. Like seeding the Earth with life, for instance. ;)

So there's the whole timeline thing. "Intelligent" humans have been on Earth for thousands of (or tens of thousands of, or hundreds of thousands of) years at best, not for millions or billions. Humans who could actually really recognize, perceive, or accept an alien lifeform as being "alien" have been here a lot less time than that. And we've only been "actively" (I use the term loosely, given SETI's budget) searching for them for, what?, the last 30 years or thereabouts?

Given billions of years, we're carping about not finding them in the last few dozen years. Sounds like we're an impatient bunch, huh? :) Remember that entire classes of beings evolved, lived, and went into extinction within mere millions of years. Generally speaking, our "intelligent" era of life is smaller than a speck when viewed on the timeline of the universe. Other intelligent species very well may have already existed, bloomed into supremacy, and died out long before our proto-human ancestors were even capable of looking at the stars and wondering if they were alone in here.

Okay, let's look at the whole SPACE issue next. As in, "Space - there sure is a lot of it." There's a reason they call it space after all: because it mostly consists of nothing but empty space! But that aside, let's say there are hundreds... no, let's say thousands... wait - let's say there are MILLIONS of planets out there. I'm with you on that part; so many billions of stars in bilions of galaxies, how could there NOT be another one with intelligent life?

But say there was. Or is, or will be. (There's that pesky timeline again.) Now either we've got to find them, or they've got to find us. That's IF two species exist at the same time, and both have the means to search or monitor the heavens, and at least one is searching for another, or hoping to be found by another. Big "if", that. But even if all the planets aligned (so to speak), we could still completely miss each other, even while trying desperately to find each other! Ever see the shows where someone's lost in the desert, the forest, or the mountains? Everyone's looking, and the lost folk are usually really trying to be found, but often as not they're not found. At least not alive. And that's just in one tiny corner of our middling-sized world.

Our technology is sufficient at this point to *start* letting us conduct a rudimentary search, and that's no small feat. Even so, we have a hard time even finding planets orbiting nearby stars. The ones we have found are generally gas giants, not normally associated with being conducive to evolving intelligent life as we'd recognize it. More on that later.

So... where were we? Oh yeah - we have a universe that's big. Really, laughingly huge. So big you could fit everything in the universe in it, and still have huge gaps of space in between. Just barkingly stupendously large, is what I'm saying. Or maybe that was Douglas Adams who said it, and I'm just paraphrasing. And on top of it being so unutteringly vast, we now compound the problem with it being so overarchingly old. I don't mean old in the way your Uncle Georgie is old because he just turned 40; I mean OLD. i.e., old enough that it's older than everything in the universe, and it's the oldest one we've ever found. Bloody ancient is what I mean. No; beyond ancient. It predates ancient. It predates TIME. (Well, not exactly, since "time" and the universe pretty much come into existence at the same time in Big Bang Cosmology as I understand it, which is to say very little indeed.)

Back to that bit about some form of intelligent life we'd recognize. And why would you assume we would? For all I really know about things, my dog could be the more intelligent lifeform in my household. Think about it: he found me, got me to take him in and raise him, has me go to work just to keep a roof over our heads and food in our bellies, AND he dictates when I feed him, walk him, play with him, etc. Sounds like he owns me, not the other way 'round. Part of me belives that Pavlov's dogs were the ones really running the experiments: "Okay, when he rings the bell, let's salivate and see what he does then. Ooooh, look - he's writing, just like you said he would!"

And we tend to assume that any lifeform we might encounter would be carbon-based. Which strikes me as a bit element-ist of us, really. Why couldn't a life form be silicon-based, for instance? And why do we assume we'd know an intelligent lifeform if we found it? What if it were a large purple lichen that communicated by telepathic radio waves, only we weren't tuned into the right station, and completely missed the memo and stepped on it before it could tell us all of the wondrous and glorious things it had done and seen?

Okay, time to try to put all these things into one kind of context. Let's go back to that desert we were lost in a little while ago. Now, you're all alone there, as far as you know. You're going to look for someone else, only here's the rub: you don't know if they ARE there, or WERE there, or ARE GOING TO BE there, or what they look like. They could be that grain of sand. Or that one. Or that cactus. Or the one that was there a thousand years ago. Or the one that will be there a million years from now. And if you find them, you might not recognize them or be able to communicate with them.

See? It's kind of a big question.

As for Firefly, I'm fine with Joss leaving the aliens out. It means either (a) they haven't found us, (b) we haven't found them, or (c) they just weren't that into us. Besides, I get sick and tired of the aliens always having a resemblence to humanoid architecture, as in "head up here, arms here, legs there" and so on. We tend to humanize our aliens when there's absolutely no evidence that such a form is ideal for this or any other planet. We assume bilateral symmetry, but something with radial symmetry (a starfish or a tripod, for example) might make more evolutionary sense. It's just, you know... harder to get actors into those latex suits if they have five arms and no legs or head. ;)

Sorry for the book-length reply, but it's a really big question. One of the biggest. I wrestle with it, a lot.

Mike

PS: My own belief is that there IS other life out there. Like you said, it's a big place with so many stars. Seems a waste just to have only us in it. And look at the track record on Earth: just about anywhere you look, you'll find life. Life tends to flourish anywhere it can grab a foothold. That we haven't found it in the cosmos yet isn't really surprising or disheartening to me; I just don't think we're looking right. It's not so much where we look, but more how and with what tools - and we might not have the knowledge or tools yet. Or it just doesn't want to be found by us yet. Given the way we tend to treat other life forms on this planet - as in "It doesn't speak English, therefore it must not be intelligent; can I kill it?" - I could hardly blame any "other" intelligent lifeforms in the universe for not wanting to throw out the welcome mat.

I hope there's intelligent life somewhere in the universe, because there's precious little of it on Earth!

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 9:34 PM

STILLFREE

I think the show is much better off without aliens. It's about human cultures and how they interact. I understand the point about Native Americans being an important part of the American frontier, but that's an aspect that Joss has chosen not to include. Oh wait, he did: the Reavers. Maybe in a horribly stereotyped way, but the legends of "Injuns" used to include wild, primitive, inhuman raiders wantonly murdering and performing perverse acts. I don't think Joss meant it in that way, though.

As far as the likelihood of running into aliens: remember, this is just one star system. Not finding aliens doesn't lend credence to either side of the "do they exist" argument.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 7:06 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
I think it requires a certain level of organization and absence of chaos to venture out into place to try and meet new people. :) That's why Klingons, as a species, are so unrealistic: they're way too chaotic to be plausible aliens (well, bad example, actually, as Klingons, in the strictest sense, are not aliens, but Reavers; but I'll leave that for another time).

You mean Reavers in the "warped reflection of humanity" metafictional sense, or Reavers in the "stole their stuff from the folks they beat up" sense?

'Cause, chronologically, the (current) Klingon civilization is really young (they just hit the four digits mark during DS9). They should be in the Dark Ages, socially. It's just that the Hur'q invaded them a few hundred years ago, and the Klingons rebelled, killed their enslavers, and stole/modified/copied their tech.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 8:50 AM

CLEANER

As far as I understood it, its not like they have travelled the verse. Just to another solar system probably in close proximity to this one, say less than 20 light years for example.

Nothing is mentioned but I take it there is no such thing as faster than light travel in FF (correct me if I'm wrong) and it a very big verse.

Might have to travel a very long way to meet intellegent life.

"If wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak!!!"

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 2:01 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by JaysonAych:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by JaysonAych:
It's actually very refreshing when compared to some sci-fi shows like "Star Trek" where a completely new intelligent alien race is introduced every episode.

Just want to point out, for no reason at all, that some of those races were damn good. I think the line, "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra," will be with me forever though I don't actually know how to spell it.

This is very much true, and that was a very interesting episode...and I hope what I said wasn't interpreted as a bash at "Star Trek."

I didn't take it like that at all. Like I said I was really saying that for no reason, other than the fact that I wanted to say it, but I don't know why I did.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 2:24 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by StillFree:
I understand the point about Native Americans being an important part of the American frontier, but that's an aspect that Joss has chosen not to include. Oh wait, he did: the Reavers. Maybe in a horribly stereotyped way, but the legends of "Injuns" used to include wild, primitive, inhuman raiders wantonly murdering and performing perverse acts. I don't think Joss meant it in that way, though.

Actually he did. The whole point was to take the horrible stereotype and strip all else away while still leaving them as believable humans.

They didn’t have their land taken away, they don’t have a recognizable culture. They are “Injuns” instead of Indians (as every descendant/tribe-member I have met calls them) or “Native Americans” as non-natives I have met call them.

At the same time in spite of lacking saving graces they are in a very real sense human. We know that if you give a group a little push, or jumpstart them with drugs as the case may be, they could, and would under the right circumstances, create a culture like that which would perpetuate itself long after the cause had gone away.

People can believably be the stereotype without any of the reality factored in, and that is what Joss tried for, the western version of the Indian rather than the real version.

Of course that was just a starting point.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 2:36 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Cleaner:
Nothing is mentioned but I take it there is no such thing as faster than light travel in FF (correct me if I'm wrong) and it a very big verse.

You're right on there.

Not a damn thing faster than light in the verse.

-

(This is not a response to you.)

It took more than a generation to get to the system on-ship, factor in time dilation and that amount of ship time can get you a long distance, they could have blown by life and never noticed, there could be no life within a hundred generations or more.

They didn't have time to look, they didn't try to look, and the odds of them finding it in the one system they went to are more or less nil.

No one here seems to think it is unrealistic that they didn't find aliens, but I wanted to point that out again.

The 'verse is the same thing as today, there could be life, there could not be life, what you believe is based only on what you take for granted. Going to another solar system and not finding life doesn't change the evidence at all.

Now going to a few million randomly selected other solar systems and not finding life might change the evidence, but not one. It's the coin toss odds, Life evolved in one solar system (ours) but not in another (Firefly's.) One for two. How is that different from one for one when you're not even saying, "Life exists in most systems," and certainly not, "Life exists in every one."

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 3:14 PM

JAYSONAYCH

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by JaysonAych:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by JaysonAych:
It's actually very refreshing when compared to some sci-fi shows like "Star Trek" where a completely new intelligent alien race is introduced every episode.

Just want to point out, for no reason at all, that some of those races were damn good. I think the line, "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra," will be with me forever though I don't actually know how to spell it.

This is very much true, and that was a very interesting episode...and I hope what I said wasn't interpreted as a bash at "Star Trek."

I didn't take it like that at all. Like I said I was really saying that for no reason, other than the fact that I wanted to say it, but I don't know why I did.

I know...cool...I just wanted to be sure that I was clear

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 6:37 PM

KWICKO

ChrisTheCynic: Gotta agree with you. Going to ONE other system or planet and not finding other life, while not looking for it, certainly doesn't tend to indicate that we're all alone in this 'verse. And looking for it in one other place and FINDING it wouldn't necessarily mean that it's everywhere, either. Those are both possibilities, but only checking one or two places (Earth and "somewhere not Earth") just gives us far too small a sample group to start trying to do statistical analysis on.

Now, if we start looking around and finding evidence of life in MOST of the places we look, then that might be saying something about life and how it tends to adapt, spread, and flourish anywhere it can lay down roots (pardon the pun). And if we start looking all over the universe and keep finding absolutely nothing... well, it tends to indicate that we are indeed alone, at least in this little backwater arm of a smallish spiral galaxy.

Mike

"Kaylee, find that kid that's taking a dirt nap with baby Jesus; we need a hood ornament."

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 9:28 PM

BROWNCOATER

One of the first things I loved about the program was no aliens. I think there's life in space, but I don't think there's other intelligent life in our solar system. And I don't think there's any within reaching distance of earth. If we're still around in 500 years, I think the Firefly solar system pretty much hits it on the head.

Does that seem right to you?

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Monday, February 6, 2006 1:30 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
well, it tends to indicate that we are indeed alone, at least in this little backwater arm of a smallish spiral galaxy.

Unfashionable backwater you mean, on our utterly insignificant blue green planet.

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 5:23 PM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Just want to point out, for no reason at all, that some of those races were damn good. I think the line, "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra," will be with me forever though I don't actually know how to spell it.

Can't spell it?
Shaka... when the walls fell...
Gilad, alone on the ocean.
So, Darmok and "Gilad" at Tenagra.
Soca, his eyes open?

Damn, typing that makes me realize how much of a nerd I am. Even though Firefly is my favorite series precisely because it doesn't follow any of the conventions of typical Star Trek-like sci-fi. KF

~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 5:25 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Kizyr:
Shaka... when the walls fell...

Just made my eyes water there.

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