A small negative critique of Firefly... by Seba

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

A small negative critique of Firefly...

POSTED BY: SEBA
UPDATED: Sunday, February 26, 2006 18:29
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VIEWED: 5921
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Saturday, February 25, 2006 2:41 PM

...where are all the gorram Chinese? If the culture of the Firefly 'verse is truly the result of a fusing of China & the US, why is it that 99% of the peoples we see in Firefly are decidedly not Chinese. Am I just missing something? It seems to me that there should at least be a reasonable percentage of Chinese, especially given that they far outnumber the population of the US, presently. I know they have appeared in the series, but nowhere near what would seem believable to me.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 2:44 PM

THEINCOMPARABLENOTION

Perhaps both cultures and ethnicities merged into one, and the traits of the Americans (which is comprised mostly of white people) were dominant, and the Chinese traits are fainter.

Or maybe not...

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 2:58 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Um ... how about Simon and River? They are TAMs that makes them Chinese, just because their genetics are distorted beyond all recognition doesn't change their heritage. Remember that as people combine a lot of traits die (and still there are Geisha.)

My Cousin is (black) central African, (black) South African, Vietnamese, and Indian (as in from India) her daughter has even more genetic strains to her name, yet her daughter looks like she could be a member of River's family.

When she was born she looked Korean (I have no idea why, no part of her came from Korea) but now that she's grown older she looks like something that can only be described as, "American."

Why is it so hard to believe that in 500 years the population decended from this entire world's population would look like the mutts of the world?

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:02 PM

THEPISTONENGINE

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

Why is it so hard to believe that in 500 years the population decended from this entire world's population would look like the mutts of the world?

Because people are proud of their heritage?

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:02 PM

THEINCOMPARABLENOTION

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Um ... how about Simon and River? They are TAMs that makes them Chinese, just because their genetics are distorted beyond all recognition doesn't change their heritage. Remember that as people combine a lot of traits die (and still there are Geisha.)

My Cousin is (black) central African, (black) South African, Vietnamese, and Indian (as in from India) her daughter has even more genetic strains to her name, yet her daughter looks like she could be a member of River's family.

When she was born she looked Korean (I have no idea why, no part of her came from Korea) but now that she's grown older she looks like something that can only be described as, "American."

Why is it so hard to believe that in 500 years the population decended from this entire world's population would look like the mutts of the world?

Genetics are just random that way, most of the people in Firefly do look a bit "mutt-like," while others appear specific to just a few ethnicities.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:06 PM

SEBA

Hey, everyone in my family are mutts as well -- Okinawan / Latvian myself, my fiancee being Nigerian/Filipino -- I'm just saying that I'd just like to see more people who are more obviously Chinese on the show to hammer home the whole concept Joss put forth with the dialogue. Even if it's 500 years in the future, historically, the majority of people haven't been too keen on mixing things up, and I doubt it would have been that widespread by this point either.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:26 PM

THEPISTONENGINE

Anyone read the RPG rulebook? There are some factions in the RPG that are Chinese people, mostly gangs, I think.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:54 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Ok, let's work from the current state of the China. Or at least what I know of, could be wrong.

There isn't many that are strongly wealthy in China. But, in the states, there are a lot of people of this type. At least far more than in China.

Also, the American companies contract to Chinese companies to make there stuff. Ever wonder why all that stuff at Walmart is so damn cheap?

So, if this propigated through time, the rich white people will be on top, whereas the Chinese would be at the bottom.

Thus, generally speaking, there isn't gonna be many Chinese who own there own ship. They're gonna be the worker in the factory, and as said above, the gang on the street, or...

But, if you look throughout the series, there is tonnes of evidence of Chinese cultural influence throughtout the 'Verse.

So, the 'Verse is a combination of American and Chinese cultures, period.

Seriously, look in the background. I think that you'll find lots of what you are saying is missing.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:10 PM

HIXIE129

Series cut short, we never got to the other planets.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:19 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Thank you Hixie

Series cut short, not enough seasons to introduce all the Chinese characters that Joss and the writers were gonna introduce.

Like the other Companion ( beautiful Chinese enchantress) who would attempt to steal Mal's heart away?
or
the gang of Chinese thugs who would attempt to foil a particularly juicy heist that Mal is attempting to pull off
or
the rich Chinese family, whose son would beg Inara to stay
or
the new little crook with Chinese heritage who would send Mal and crew on a caper that Badger wanted Mal to go on, thus creating tension between crook factions...

ok, ok, I'm silly, just ignore me.

" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
...where are all the gorram Chinese? If the culture of the Firefly 'verse is truly the result of a fusing of China & the US, why is it that 99% of the peoples we see in Firefly are decidedly not Chinese. Am I just missing something? It seems to me that there should at least be a reasonable percentage of Chinese, especially given that they far outnumber the population of the US, presently. I know they have appeared in the series, but nowhere near what would seem believable to me.

Yeah, I've had that nagging little question my own self. I'd like to think that, were it given a few seasons, Joss would have worked more Chinese actors into the story. I'd blame FOX, but then we didn't see too many in SERENITY either, so I'm a bit stumpified. Part of me is glad they weren't just tossed in there for the sake of window dressing, as in...." See? We've got Chinese people here! ".

Or maybe there WERE more Chinese folks in there, and we just didn't notice ?

It's SciFi. It's not perfect. But still, I love it, tiny warts and all.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 7:28 AM

CYBERSNARK

Didn't Joss address this somewhere and blame it on Central Casting?

I.e., they just couldn't find any Asian actors who were as interested and/or as good as our cast.

Probably a miscommunication somewhere, probably involving agents preventing their clients from getting jobs. I've read numerous interviews with Asian actors complaining about how hard it is to find jobs that aren't "token martial arts guy." Jobs are probably out there, but their agents aren't putting their names in.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 7:55 AM

GRIMJACK21502

I asked the same question.

In the collection of essays, "Finding Serenity," the lack of Chinese characters is discussed.

One of the theories that I liked the best was that China's decendents (from the Earth That Was)were actually the dominant race (economically) and were located almost exclusively on the 'core' planets. It helps explain the emphasis on Chinese culture being more sophisticated and cosmopolitan, and the lack of Chinese characters because Serenity didn't travel the core planets (except for Ariel). In addition it explains the use of Chinese when Joss needed to convey an emotional reaction (it wasn't all swearing people

) because when you speak Chinese in the 'Verse you aren't f'n around.

This happened more in the series than in the BDM (the uninitiated would have been distracted with an unexplained use of Chinese with no reference point).

My two cents...actually the books two cents, my two,er, um...you know what I mean.

We will hold...we hold till Mal gets back.

"And once you're gone, you can never come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black"
-Neil Young

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:32 AM

J6NGO1977

I absolutely can see your point on this. It is not something I considered until you mentioned it. The only person that looks vaguely Chinese is Kaylee. I can't even see any chinese extras. If you watch Blade Runner it is littered with chinese people and culture however Firefly doesn't display any chinese people at all. So in Blade Runner the chinese mish mash gutter talk just fits but in Firefly it seems out of place because it's hard to see the connection of its use.

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:33 PM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Ok, let's work from the current state of the China. Or at least what I know of, could be wrong.

There isn't many that are strongly wealthy in China. But, in the states, there are a lot of people of this type. At least far more than in China.

Also, the American companies contract to Chinese companies to make there stuff. Ever wonder why all that stuff at Walmart is so damn cheap?

So, if this propigated through time, the rich white people will be on top, whereas the Chinese would be at the bottom.

Sorry but I'm gonna call BS on that.

The entire extreme division of labor like that doesn't work. It's the same principle from which Marxism originated (proletariat get downtrodden until the class division gets to an extreme point).

It doesn't work in your example because, as time goes on, companies which are worked by Chinese end up being owned by Chinese. Outsourcing labor begins with foreign-worked factories. Then local managers start taking over, so you have foreign-managed and foreign-worked factories. Lastly, you end up with foreign-owned, foreign-managed, and foreign-worked factories, as the managers realize that it's more efficient to have production and everything controlled from the same place.

If your example held, we wouldn't have issues like CNOOC's bid for UnoCal a while back. Though that was halted for some BS political reasons, when it comes to politics versus economics, economics wins out in the long-run; political views can change, but folks will always want more money. So we'll likely see more and more instances of Chinese companies making inroads into the US market, just like we already saw the same with Japanese companies making inroads to the US auto and agricultural markets.

Now, back to the original deal... There are folks in the 'verse who look ethnically Chinese, ethnically Indian, ethnically black, white, Latino, whereever. I figure we don't see as many of them because we know the 'verse primarily through the crew of the Serenity--and they just don't run into a lot of Chinese on a regular basis. Now, maybe if they did more business on the Core worlds it'd be different, but they don't. KF

~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:48 PM

DATALESS

Inara is more asain looking. Simon and River have the last name Tam and if you look around a lot of the worlds of Firefly there are asians all around and we never when to Shinon. If you ever read the RPG book by MWP it says most of the people of Chinese decent live or first settelled on this world. Where most of the Anglo decent settelled on Londinium (on that we've seen this world either.) I think that they just keep more to them selves in the 'verse. I also think that the cultures have mixed over the generations of travel to the new Solar System that is home to them.

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 1:25 PM

SHAVENYAK

--------------------------------------------------
Hey, everyone in my family are mutts as well -- Okinawan / Latvian myself, my fiancee being Nigerian/Filipino -- I'm just saying that I'd just like to see more people who are more obviously Chinese on the show to hammer home the whole concept Joss put forth with the dialogue. Even if it's 500 years in the future, historically, the majority of people haven't been too keen on mixing things up, and I doubt it would have been that widespread by this point either.
--------------------------------------------------

This may be true, but do realize that in the begining of "Serenity" you see large ships leaving "earth that was" en-route to their new homes. Even after a couple of generations on a ship, one would see quite a bit of crossbreeding, I would think.

Beyond all that, who has to leave "earth that was?" Hard for me to believe that the rich would leave, and who are the rich? It's not established, so there are a lot of variables we know nothing about.

What if China saw the likes of a Stalin, or another Mao, or a plague. No way to know.

--Roman

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 1:58 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Kizyr:

Sorry but I'm gonna call BS on that.

Ok, let me quote myself:

"""
Ok, let's work from the current state of the China. Or at least what I know of, could be wrong.
"""

So, next time, instead of just calling what someone else has said is BS (read as: you're being a prick), maybe, just maybe, you should actually read what they have written?

Dong ma?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:06 PM

DAISYCUTTER

My input would be that of weapons. I can understand the odd weapons that would act as antiques and family heir-looms passed down. But when you see MP5's, L85's (Both in the hands of the Alliance soldiers in the episode 'Train Job')

and the AG36, which were used by the browncoats in the war

________________________________________________
"When you can't run, you shoot. When you can't shoot, you run a bit more. When, you get shot in the leg, you crawl. When you crawl, you try to bite the shooters kneecaps off. When you are knocked unconcious, well you know the rest."

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:06 PM

BLINKER

Time to haul out the deleted pilot scene I quote from every time this topic comes up:

Quote:
BOOK
I'm not a grandpa.

The guy just looks at him like he's crazy, lets him move on past the next barker, MAN #2. The guy is fancy, with people gathered around -- his ship is clearly high class.

MAN #2
-- three berths left, junior suites,
we are not interested in Asian or
Catholic passengers, thank you, we
will be bidding for the last three
berths --

There is, apparently, some kind of prejudice against Asians - and Catholics - in parts of the 'verse. The line was omitted from the pilot, but Joss may or may not have resurrected the idea had the series continued to explain the lack of Asian actors.

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:07 PM

FREELANCEPILOT

I love how many people are saying things like "Inara looks the most chinese" or "kaylee sorta looks chinese".
I find this personally hilarious.
Niether of them even look like mixes. Being a mix (spanish korean) and living around mixes most of my life, i know what the look of a part asian is. (military bases are full of them.)
the thing in firefly is that networks under-hire asian actors. I don't think that it is something Joss wanted or even thought too much about. It did big me a bit, but i don't think something malevolent is going on. I am a big suprised that there are no asians in the cast of 9.
Two blacks, 5 whites, and a latina (portuguese... latin language) It almost seems like all but asians were seen. That is one thing that always bugged me about all sci fi shows. chinese and indians alone cover two thirds of the world population, yet they are woefully under represented in television, movies, and books.
I think it will take time, but that will change. Things are getting better all the time.

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoë: You live on a spaceship, dear.
Wash: So?

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:21 PM

SHAVENYAK

Quote:
Originally posted by FreelancePilot:
I love how many people are saying things like "Inara looks the most chinese" or "kaylee sorta looks chinese".
I find this personally hilarious.
Niether of them even look like mixes. Being a mix (spanish korean) and living around mixes most of my life, i know what the look of a part asian is. (military bases are full of them.)
the thing in firefly is that networks under-hire asian actors. I don't think that it is something Joss wanted or even thought too much about. It did big me a bit, but i don't think something malevolent is going on. I am a big suprised that there are no asians in the cast of 9.
Two blacks, 5 whites, and a latina (portuguese... latin language) It almost seems like all but asians were seen. That is one thing that always bugged me about all sci fi shows. chinese and indians alone cover two thirds of the world population, yet they are woefully under represented in television, movies, and books.
I think it will take time, but that will change. Things are getting better all the time.

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoë: You live on a spaceship, dear.
Wash: So?

If Star Trek could do it in the '60s, I don't understand the problem now. Sulu wasn't portrayed as a martial arts master. Hell, they even had the first inter-racial kiss ever on TV. Truly ground breaking, IMHO. I wonder why so little has changed in that respect.

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 3:13 PM

BROWNCOATSRISEAGAIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Shavenyak:

If Star Trek could do it in the '60s, I don't understand the problem now. Sulu wasn't portrayed as a martial arts master. Hell, they even had the first inter-racial kiss ever on TV. Truly ground breaking, IMHO. I wonder why so little has changed in that respect.

Are you so sure about Sulu? Maybe not a master but an active student... in both martial arts and fencing.

[img]

[/img]

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/character/1112493.htm
l

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 3:16 PM

THEFREAKSHOW

Ok time to dispel some rumors. 1. in the Serenity pilot episode there was an asian gang in the streets of Persephony. There were asain dancers in the Train job, also in the Train job there was a woman in dressed as though she were from the middle east. The list of asain people goes on. 2. granted that there would be scocial changes in the world the population, especially on planets like Persephony would likly be divided into anglo and asian sections. 3. It's possible that less people of asian decent were inclined or required to migrate from central planets as such they would not be featured as heavily. 4. Part of TV and movies is suspending disbelif, their was enough asian influence there to convince people of this dual scociety. The show was amazingly cast, I can only assume that the asian actors that tried out just wern't good enough for the role. 5. More upper class people would have made it off of earth that was the lower class people. 6. I can't spell Persephony, sorry.

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 3:43 PM

SHAVENYAK

Quote:
Originally posted by browncoatsriseagain:
Quote:
Originally posted by Shavenyak:

If Star Trek could do it in the '60s, I don't understand the problem now. Sulu wasn't portrayed as a martial arts master. Hell, they even had the first inter-racial kiss ever on TV. Truly ground breaking, IMHO. I wonder why so little has changed in that respect.

Are you so sure about Sulu? Maybe not a master but an active student... in both martial arts and fencing.

[img]
[/img]

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/character/1112493.htm
l

Hahahaha, that's awesome! Is that the one with the evil alternate universe?

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:23 PM

WHAMMY

Quote:
Originally posted by Shavenyak:
Quote:
Originally posted by browncoatsriseagain:

Are you so sure about Sulu? Maybe not a master but an active student... in both martial arts and fencing.

[img]
[/img]

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/character/1112493.htm
l

Hahahaha, that's awesome! Is that the one with the evil alternate universe?

I believe it's from 'The Naked Time', which was the one where they all get 'drunk' off of RandomSpacePhenomenon(tm), and reenact their childhood dreams, or something. (Never a major fan of the orignal series, so I'm not positive.)

Obligatory on-topic comment: I guess I agree with some of the rationalizations here, in that I always presumed that the Chinese descendants and the American descendants kept their distance a little bit, and perhaps settled on different worlds. Cultures can mix without the people mixing...

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:25 PM

BROWNCOATSRISEAGAIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Shavenyak:

Hahahaha, that's awesome! Is that the one with the evil alternate universe?

No it's an early one from the first season where the crew gets a virus that removes their inhibitions. It's "The Naked Time"

Andrew
www.browncoatsriseagain.com

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 5:29 PM

AZTECHROME

Yep. Naked Time it is.

I can tell you that Sulu at least holds his foil properly. Maybe he studied fencing in life... I don't know.

George Takeii IS actually an alien. He just plays Sulu on TV. Have you ever seen his "SECRETS" interview on Conan. Could not stop laughing!
________

Anyway, back to the point. Sort of.

Sorry to bring in the mundane world, but I think that the reason the chinese influence is largely in the mise-en-scene and not abundantly available in characters is simply a matter of effective production.
I mean we only got 11 aired epidodes. If Joss had insisted on equalizing the Chinese/American screen-time, the network execs never would have even let us see those 11 shows. To get GOOD chinese actors for an American scifi show blend would be very very hard. And Joss took alot of care in picking his actors.

So, there's alot of background chinese atmosphere, but not so many foregrounded characters. Why? Simply because Joss had to bring a product to market, and he made it the best way that he could.

This actually surpasses my level of geekiness, but you might want to check out some of the detailed text in the PnP "Firefly" RPG books. I believe that the chinese influence is much more prominent.

I'm not trying to disagree with the speculations "in sci-fi context". I think they're very good points. It's just that something external to the camera can affect what the spectator is allowed to see. In this case network politics is the culprit. And economics.

Enough with the rant.
-aztechrome

"What is the difference between work and love? Show me..." (JLG) [Passion]

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 5:58 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

If it makes ya feel any better, the US airports in Memphis and New Orleans are currently signposted in Chinese. The Commie Chinese Army currently owns and operates the Memphis Port in Tennessee and the Panama Canal (with 20,000 Commie soldiers), and the largest port in the British Bahamas. The Anglo-Sino Alliance is GO.

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO:
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/8310.php

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:15 PM

CANTONMUDDER

Maybe the reason asians aren’t represented in Firefly is because they generally suck as actors and actress. Besides, I think Firefly is fine without those untrustworthy, two-faced, backstabbing, robotronic acting, totally oversized children. Most Asian women are trying to be white girls anyway, so who would want to have to put up with that?

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:29 PM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
"""
Ok, let's work from the current state of the China. Or at least what I know of, could be wrong.
"""

So, next time, instead of just calling what someone else has said is BS (read as: you're being a prick), maybe, just maybe, you should actually read what they have written?

I did read what you wrote, and responded to it. I'm sorry for wording it rudely, but if it means anything, I didn't intend it as a personal attack. I hear lots of theories come out of the same line of reasoning, so I gave my usual response to it.

I think there's no need to respond with more insults, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by FreelancePilot:
I love how many people are saying things like "Inara looks the most chinese" or "kaylee sorta looks chinese".
I find this personally hilarious.

Me too... I think Inara looks Brazilian myself.
Oh. Right...

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
If it makes ya feel any better, the US airports in Memphis and New Orleans are currently signposted in Chinese.

Well, Memphis is a much more significant airport than folks give it credit for. It's had all the signposts in Japanese for at least a decade now, or as far back as I can recall (Nashville's airport has had the same since 4-5 years ago). As far as Japanese is concerned, though, that's more due to the fact that a significant amount of Japanese do come into Tennessee, for tourism or for business.

I suppose this is just underscoring your point. Chinese business in Memphis = Chinese signs at the airport. KF

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