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Originally posted by tmurrie:
I think she would have pulled her gun on anyone who pulled their gun first. I don't think she would shoot, but she sure would diffuse the situation.

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Originally posted by tmurrie:
I think she would have pulled her gun on anyone who pulled their gun first. I don't think she would shoot, but she sure would diffuse the situation. Either it be Mal pointing his gun at Simon, or Simon pulling Mal's gun out. I think she would make sure nothing happened, no matter who was the aggressor...even though both of them were the aggressors really...

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(could be a Tam thing)

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Originally posted by zoid:
She is mechanically -- almost robotically -- devoted to Mal; like she is hard-wired to follow his every order and protect him.

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where River mentions the Mayfield's ball this year, and her parents and Simon nervously concur that there was no such event.

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P.S. And if it came down to Wash or Mal, she would have (*sob* past tense!) killed Mal to save Wash. I believe that. Mal or Simon? Doctor loses every time. Just sayin'.

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Originally posted by zoid:
Whatever objections she may have to Mal's reasoning, she never fails to follow his lead. If you want to speculate on something along these lines: Why does she so steadfastly follow him? What factor(s) in Zoe's past cause her to trust his judgment so rigorously? Was it something to do with a specific wartime scenario she shared with him? Did Mal save her from something so horrendous that she can never even think about betraying him?

These are the interesting questions, imo.

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Originally posted by zoid:
Case in point, while she did question Mal about leaving the man for the Reavers, after the fact, let's not forget she was the one driving the mule.

...And she didn't hesitate to obey Mal's order to drive away from the man.

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Actually, she did kind of hesitate. She does not speed up (get the mule out of first gear) until the guy is dead. This leaves it open, and gives the guy a chance. And it's not out of fear of hitting things in the city, as evidenced when she does "step on it". You may want to watch the scene again... ( a good excuse to, anyway)

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Originally posted by thesoapboxer:

I figured it was mostly just instincts (Sudden violent movements = Go for gun!), since she didn't even take it out of the holster.

I doubt she would be drawing on Simon, especially since he was the one with the lower hand (Mal's so much bigger than him)

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Originally posted by zoid:

... Her loyalty to Mal trumps all other considerations.

I've got a couple more for you:

First example: In the pilot, after Dobson shoots Kaylee in the abdomen, Mal wants to dump the Tams with the Feds. Simon issues the ultimatum that he won't save Kaylee unless Mal orders them to make a run for it. It is Inara who prompts Mal to decide against his initial reaction; Kaylee's moan of pain is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Once Mal makes the decision -- and not until, not before -- Zoe immediately signals the bridge and says, "we're running".

Throughout the confrontation, Zoe says nothing like 'We've got to help them' or 'We've got to save Kaylee'. She simply waits for Mal to make his decision, regardless that Kaylee will probably die if he decides against helping the Tams escape. It's Mal's call; she will follow.

Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.

Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.

Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.

She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.

But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.

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Originally posted by zoid:
Sickdude wrote:

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Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.

Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.

Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.

She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.

But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.

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Actually no. Wash had to convince Zoe that they needed to rescue Mal. Granted it didn't take much convincing. I remember this distinctly because I liked that the show made it clear who Zoe's strongest loyalties are toward.

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Originally posted by firefly001:

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Originally posted by zoid:
Sickdude wrote:

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Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.

Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.

Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.

She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.

But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.

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Actually no. Wash had to convince Zoe that they needed to rescue Mal. Granted it didn't take much convincing. I remember this distinctly because I liked that the show made it clear who Zoe's strongest loyalties are toward.

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Originally posted by zoid:

Shinyfab:

To Wash's credit, though, he is not simply following Zoe's lead. It's clear -- at least in my mind -- that he has no intention of letting Mal sacrifice himself for his sake. Wash and Zoe are in perfect accord that going back for Mal is the only course of action. There are no other choices.

The whole theme of "War Stories" is that Wash cannot understand Zoe's unflinching loyalty to Mal. By the episode's end, he not only understands her devotion to Mal, he feels it in his bones. Wash has 'walked a mile in her shoes', as the saying goes.

As a result, he is no longer jealous and/or suspicious of Zoe's relationship with Mal.

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Originally posted by zoid:
asarian:

These are the topics I really enjoy. I think the richness of meaning within each episode typifies Joss' and his Mutant Enemy co-writers' brilliance. I believe it is this virtuosity in adult storytelling that sets Firefly apart from any other show on television -- ever -- including those Joss has previously created.

Believing in Fate as I do, I believe Joss was born to tell Malcolm Reynold's story. Art springs from the Implicate Order of the universe; It seeks and finds Its vessel to realize Itself. Anyone who has performed artistically has felt the power flow through them as Art expresses itself. When an artist practices or hones their skills, it is only so that they may become a more suitable conduit through which Art may flow...

I know that sounds a bit outre, but believe me, them's the facts.

And here's a little something to chew on:
Mal frequently doesn't know why he makes the choices he does. As Fanty said (or was it Mingo?), he runs when he ought to fight, fights when he ought to deal; he cradles a girl who's just gone apesh*t on an entire barroom and takes her back aboard his ship.

We all know that part of it. But here's the interesting bit: When Mal tells Book about the incident, he questions his own motivations for doing so, figuring that abandoning the Tams would've been the smart play. Book says, "That's not your way, Mal". Mal says, "So I've got a 'way'? Is that better than a plan?"

The word 'tao' means 'way' or 'path' (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao). According to Chinese philosophy, 'Tao' is definitely better than a plan. Mal, who is at odds with God, is talking to a man of God, who is convinced that Mal has a tao, and Mal fancies the notion.

This subtle interplay of words and juxtaposition of archetypal characters -- the apostate and the preacher -- is, again, sheer genius. And the really cool part, to me, is that it probably floats right by most viewers' conscious minds and settles deeper, where archetypes hold sway.



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Art will have Its way with Joss. We'll get more Firefly. He may be feelin' a little whipped right now; but, Firefly's not finished, and it won't leave him be until it is. That's my prediction.
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"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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...And I agree about Joss not being done. This thing flowed into him, it's not done with him yet.
It's flowed into all of us too, very powerfully, and it's not done with us yet either.

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Originally posted by zoid:
Which forces me to reiterate: What kind of hell did Mal rescue Zoe from, to engender loyalty that deep and lasting? Oh, sure, the easy answer is "The Battle of Serenity"; but what specifically happened that ripped these two people in half and then grafted them together at the soul?

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Originally posted by tmurrie:
I think she would have pulled her gun on anyone who pulled their gun first. [...] I think she would make sure nothing happened, no matter who was the aggressor

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...I had a completely different take on this...

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...I still haven't decided who she must have been drawing the gun on in the BDM. I always thought of it as an instinctual reaction. Just Joss showing how tense everyone was. It never occurred to me that she might be drawing on anyone in particular. I must watch that scene again tonight.

Good thread octogen!

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