Return of the Jedi by Joss Whedon by Legolad

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Return of the Jedi by Joss Whedon

POSTED BY: LEGOLAD
UPDATED: Saturday, March 18, 2006 06:41
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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:29 PM

This came up in another thread, and I thought I'd give it its own post. First of all, no, Joss had nothing to do with Star Wars and likely never will.

But there's an excellent interview with him where he mentions that if there's one movie he would have liked the chance to make, it would have been Return of the Jedi.

Take a moment to imagine that.

So... for everyone out there (like myself) who loved the first two but were incredibly disappointed by Jedi... what do you think Joss' version would have been like? What would you have wanted to see? What would YOU have done? Just thought I'd throw the topic out there... let your imaginations run wild.

Oh, and here's the interview, which is quite long, but very good; he discusses nearly everything he's worked on, from Toy Story to Serenity:
www.infocusmag.com/05augustseptember/whedonuncut.htm

"We need a hood ornament."

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:12 PM

GARIM

Actually, I am pretty sure that Joss said that he would've liked to make "Revenge of the Jedi", which it was originally intended to be called.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:06 PM

MIGHTYROAR

I heard in interview with Lucas, where he said that he intentionally leaked the title "Revenge ..." to dupe manufacturers of non-official merchandise to have the wrong name on them. Then when the film was released, he came up with the whole "well, revenge isn't really a jedi trait" thing

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:12 AM

CHRISPV

First lesson of Lucas-speak, 99% of what he says is pure bilge. If he says he did anything intentionally, I'd cast some serious doubt on that. Rembember, he always wanted Luke and Leia to be siblings, and yet he wrote in a scene in Empire where they play tonsil hockey.

And the 1% that isn't bilge, you ask? Well, he has to be honest about his name, otherwise he couldn't cash those ENORMOUS checks of his.

As for the main question, I don't know. The dialog would be better, but I actually think that might be a deterrent. I'm not of the type that says the hokey dialog in SW is "charming," but going from Lucas level scripting to Joss level scripting so abruptly would stand out pretty severely.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal, Fox!

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:24 AM

REGINAROADIE

I dunno. I always liked RETURN OF THE JEDI. Yeah, maybe there were too many Ewoks in it, but for the most part, it does wrap up the series incredibly well.

I mean, not only do you have the biggest, baddest space dog figth ever put on film (with all due respect to SERENITY), but you also got the ultimate final showdown between Luke and Darth Vader and The Emperor. Just that part when Vader says "If you will not be turned, then maybe she will.", he bursts out of the shadows screaming "NOOOOO" and then just going apeshit on Vader. The whole series has been building up that moment where you think Luke'll finally go over to the Dark Side.

And The Emperor being tossed over the side into that power core thing at the end has to be one of the best sci-f deaths.

I dunno. I always liked JEDI.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"I think one of the greatest things about modern America is the computerization of medical records. As a volunteer sheriff, I can look up anyone's psychiatric records and their surgical histories. Yeast infections. There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably...because we're down river...from that old bread factory."

Dwight - The Office - 209 - E-mail Surveillance

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:57 AM

ZEEK

I always liked Jedi too. I don't really mind the Ewoks even. The only thing I'd change is giving them deadlier weapons. It's obvious that nothing they use would hurt a stormtrooper. Yet still we see the troopers being taken out by them. That's just silly.

The scenes of Luke being all badass are great though. At Jabba's palace you see exactly the path I wish they had gone with Anakin. He's doing a good thing, but he's using his powers a bit to evily in the process. Using the force choke was always an evil use of the force in my opinion.

Then the final showdown between Luke, Vader and the Emperor. That is a great way for things to play out. Even with Vader turning away from the darkside to save his son is awesome (until you learn that Anakin is a loser who couldn't decide what cape to wear without someone else telling him).

Plus the Emperor is one of the best evil characters ever in Jedi. Every line he delivers is spot on evil.

All in all a pretty great movie IMO. I don't really know what else Joss could have done with it.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:00 AM

ISAACSHEPHERD

If Joss had a chance to write and direct I think the movie would have been much better. I do like the ending but I think someone in the main cast would have died. I think he likes to kill main characters b/c we never really see it comming. Too many movies keep all the heroes alive in the end and it loses the intensity and makes them predictable.
I've recently began watching Buffy and I'm on disc 2 for season 2 and Joss kills someone in almost every episode (although they aren't main characters).
As far as the ending goes with the Luke/Vader/Emperor fight, I really like that part. I don't think that part really needs to be changed. The Ewoks on the other hand would have turned out much different. They got annoying and seemed a bit out of place compared to the rest of the SW movies.
IS

The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:01 AM

REGINAROADIE

I agree. If anything, he would be paying more of an homage to it than improving it. If FIREFLY had run for x # of years and the final season was like the second civil war or something like that, I always imagined that Simon's fight with Gabriel and the Blue Handed Men or whoever was in charge of what happened to River would be fought out just like in JEDI.

For some reason, I just see Simon brandishing a lightsaber. And even though it would be infringing on copyright, it would still be really cool.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"I think one of the greatest things about modern America is the computerization of medical records. As a volunteer sheriff, I can look up anyone's psychiatric records and their surgical histories. Yeast infections. There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably...because we're down river...from that old bread factory."

Dwight - The Office - 209 - E-mail Surveillance

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 7:27 AM

SADLITTLEKING

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
If Joss had a chance to write and direct I think the movie would have been much better. I do like the ending but I think someone in the main cast would have died. I think he likes to kill main characters b/c we never really see it comming. Too many movies keep all the heroes alive in the end and it loses the intensity and makes them predictable.
I've recently began watching Buffy and I'm on disc 2 for season 2 and Joss kills someone in almost every episode (although they aren't main characters).
As far as the ending goes with the Luke/Vader/Emperor fight, I really like that part. I don't think that part really needs to be changed. The Ewoks on the other hand would have turned out much different. They got annoying and seemed a bit out of place compared to the rest of the SW movies.
IS

I agree.

I thought Jedi was good. I think the only things Joss would change is making the Ewoks menacing rather than cute and he'd actually kill some characters. C-3PO and/or R2 would be junked during the Jabba fight. Wedge would die in the final space battle. Lando would sacrifice himself and Funny Mustache Big Head Co-Pilot Guy in order to destroy the Death Star. Yes, Joss would destroy the Millenium Falcon. He's that vindictive, I tell you. He's probably smashed Millenium Falcon toys hundreds of times, living out his perverted fantasy to make Star Wars fans around the world collectively weep.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:10 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Maybe I'm a dork but I liked the Ewok victory. The Empire is a technological force (just look at the Death Star). All the systems they take seriously have laser guns and energy shield and such so that's what they plan on fighting with and against. Who would ever think to use "primitive" weapons on them?!?
They never contemplated the posibility so they never bothered to defend against it. If they thought the Ewoks might try to fight them I agree they would have slaughtered them all but the didn't. The Ewoks never came into the equation as far as the Empire was concerned and that proved fatal.

Sorry about that. It's a pet peeve of mine. Anyway, I'm not sure Joss would have made them menecing. He seems to like putting power in unexpected and inocuose places. He might have made them more warrior like though.
As for the rest of it, yes some big characters would have died. It makes things more real and emotional. Joss is good at that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:16 AM

TEALCANDTRIP

Quote:
Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
Lando would sacrifice himself and Funny Mustache Big Head Co-Pilot Guy in order to destroy the Death Star. Yes, Joss would destroy the Millenium Falcon. He's that vindictive, I tell you. He's probably smashed Millenium Falcon toys hundreds of times, living out his perverted fantasy to make Star Wars fans around the world collectively weep.

Well, the Millenium Falcon was originally destroyed in ROTJ. That's why Han says "Yeah, I just got a funny feeling. Like I'm not gonna see her again" when he gives the ship to Lando. In the original script, Lando and company didn't fly out of the Death Star in time to save themselves and the ship. Lucus even filmed it. But test screening results were so negative that they changed the script. Unfortunately they had already shot the last scene where they all gather together, so they just digitally added in Lando. That's why he's clapping and dancing while everybody else just sort of stands there. True Story.

"I also hear that there's something called Firefly, which is either a canceled science-fiction television show or a new religion, I'm not clear on that. Either way, prayers for the resurrection are involved." – Lore Sjoberg

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:17 AM

TEALCANDTRIP

Oh, and on the marketing power of Star Wars, they never say the word 'ewok' or 'ewoks' in the movie.

"I also hear that there's something called Firefly, which is either a canceled science-fiction television show or a new religion, I'm not clear on that. Either way, prayers for the resurrection are involved." – Lore Sjoberg

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:20 AM

STILLTHEREWAITING

Quote:
Originally posted by MightyRoar:
I heard in interview with Lucas, where he said that he intentionally leaked the title "Revenge ..." to dupe manufacturers of non-official merchandise to have the wrong name on them. Then when the film was released, he came up with the whole "well, revenge isn't really a jedi trait" thing

That strikes me as highly unlikely considering that there was a run of official movie posters done with the Revenge title. They do rather well at auctions.

If I were you, I'd run!
If you were me, you'd be good-looking

You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:53 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisPV:
First lesson of Lucas-speak, 99% of what he says is pure bilge. If he says he did anything intentionally, I'd cast some serious doubt on that. Rembember, he always wanted Luke and Leia to be siblings, and yet he wrote in a scene in Empire where they play tonsil hockey.

Oka, obviosly you have a Lucas grudge, but some of your info is a little off.

One, Luke and Leia wern't always meant to be siblings. Even the Vader as father bit wasn't decided FOR SURE untill Jedi was ramping up production (they considered the story point that Vader was lying). Despite what he says not about having the whole 6 movies laid out from the start is bunk. I've read 5 vastly different drafts, and it's clear it wasn't all planned out.

Also, Empire is the one that Lucas had the least to do with in terms of writing. It was originally written by Leigh Bracket, who died after completing a first draft. It was then completed by Larry Kasdan.

And really, it was clearly not a case of "tonsil hockey". Leia gave Luke a closed-mouth kiss, for the obviose reason of making Han jelous. And none of the characters knew of the sibling relation at the time.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:54 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by StillThereWaiting:
Quote:
Originally posted by MightyRoar:
I heard in interview with Lucas, where he said that he intentionally leaked the title "Revenge ..." to dupe manufacturers of non-official merchandise to have the wrong name on them. Then when the film was released, he came up with the whole "well, revenge isn't really a jedi trait" thing

That strikes me as highly unlikely considering that there was a run of official movie posters done with the Revenge title. They do rather well at auctions.

No kidding. I saw one at a movie memorobelia shop last month, with a $500 price tag.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:32 AM

CHRISPV

Quote:
Oka, obviosly you have a Lucas grudge, but some of your info is a little off.

One, Luke and Leia wern't always meant to be siblings. Even the Vader as father bit wasn't decided FOR SURE untill Jedi was ramping up production (they considered the story point that Vader was lying). Despite what he says not about having the whole 6 movies laid out from the start is bunk. I've read 5 vastly different drafts, and it's clear it wasn't all planned out.

Also, Empire is the one that Lucas had the least to do with in terms of writing. It was originally written by Leigh Bracket, who died after completing a first draft. It was then completed by Larry Kasdan.

And really, it was clearly not a case of "tonsil hockey". Leia gave Luke a closed-mouth kiss, for the obviose reason of making Han jelous. And none of the characters knew of the sibling relation at the time.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Guilty as to the grudge. The man annoys me no end.

Actually I don't think you understood my intent. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet, I'm afraid. I was basically saying that any of his numerous comments that he's had this whole six film series in mind since 1976 is bunk.

As for the tonsil hockey, that my friend was hyperbole for comedic effect. I tend to do that a lot.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal, Fox!

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:55 AM

ORPHEUS

If I could change anything about Return of the Jedi, I'd make only two changes.

1) Shorten the entire first act. The whole thing at Jabba's Palace always struck me as being far too drawn out. Thing is, it's still all necessary plot. But crap like the dance numbers (which are fine), just pad the thing out.

2) At the end, whe Vader throws the Emperor down the Power Core shaft (or whatever that is). Well, when Lando and Wedge go into the core to blow it up, I'd have added the Emperor falling down through the shaft into the core in the background. That's always a touch I'd like to have seen. Like in Return of the King, when Denethor falls off the top of Minas Tirith and it just zooms out to show the full extent of the battle. Something like that would've been awesome at the end of Jedi.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:09 PM

TIVO25

I seem to remember reading an interview or listening to a commentary somewhere where Joss had said if he'd done RotJ he'd have killed off Luke & Leia and made the movie about Han.

Don't quote me on that though, I could just be smokin' somethin'.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:16 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisPV:
Guilty as to the grudge. The man annoys me no end.

Actually I don't think you understood my intent. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet, I'm afraid. I was basically saying that any of his numerous comments that he's had this whole six film series in mind since 1976 is bunk.

As for the tonsil hockey, that my friend was hyperbole for comedic effect. I tend to do that a lot.

Fair enough. My attempts at on-line sarcasm have sometimes met will ill result as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus:
At the end, whe Vader throws the Emperor down the Power Core shaft (or whatever that is). Well, when Lando and Wedge go into the core to blow it up, I'd have added the Emperor falling down through the shaft into the core in the background. That's always a touch I'd like to have seen. Like in Return of the King, when Denethor falls off the top of Minas Tirith and it just zooms out to show the full extent of the battle. Something like that would've been awesome at the end of Jedi.

That would be cool. Who knows, maybe they'll add that for the enevitable ultra-mega-super-special-blu-ray edition.

What I still want to see is the original version of that scene, where Lando and the Falcon do not make it out of the explosion.

Quote:
Originally posted by TIVO25:
I seem to remember reading an interview or listening to a commentary somewhere where Joss had said if he'd done RotJ he'd have killed off Luke & Leia and made the movie about Han.

That might have made for an interesting situation, since Harrison Ford wanted very much to be killed off in Jedi.

And as a side note, how old was Joss when Jedi was made? I don't know his current age, but he couldn't have been more than what, fifteen?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:40 PM

REGINAROADIE

I think he was in college when Jedi came out. In the Objects in Space commentary track, he mentioned how when he was 17 or 18 or something like that the thing that sparked his "there is no God" revelation was oddly enough, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND.

This statement now that I've thought about it makes sense, but I personally disagree with. If anything, I found the movie to be more of an affirmation of faith. I remember the first time I saw it feeling inspired. It's been said that CE3K (the shortened version of the title) is supposed to be a sci-fi version of the St. Peter story. St. Peter was the #1 persecutor of Christians until one night, while walking alone on a road, he saw a light in the sky. After that, he had an about face and became the #1 Christian. Same thing happens with Roy in CE3K. Disbeliever sees a UFO in the sky, becomes a believer and because of his faith, he gets to be taken to their home planet.

I wonder if something like that'll happen to Joss. That something so profound will happen to him that he starts believing in "the big sky bully".

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"I think one of the greatest things about modern America is the computerization of medical records. As a volunteer sheriff, I can look up anyone's psychiatric records and their surgical histories. Yeast infections. There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably...because we're down river...from that old bread factory."

Dwight - The Office - 209 - E-mail Surveillance

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:24 PM

STILLTHEREWAITING

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by StillThereWaiting:

That strikes me as highly unlikely considering that there was a run of official movie posters done with the Revenge title. They do rather well at auctions.

No kidding. I saw one at a movie memorobelia shop last month, with a $500 price tag.

Gotta be careful though. It's supposedly one of the most forged one-sheets out there.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy.

If I were you, I'd run!
If you were me, you'd be good-looking

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:38 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by StillThereWaiting:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by StillThereWaiting:

That strikes me as highly unlikely considering that there was a run of official movie posters done with the Revenge title. They do rather well at auctions.

No kidding. I saw one at a movie memorobelia shop last month, with a $500 price tag.

Gotta be careful though. It's supposedly one of the most forged one-sheets out there.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy.

If I were you, I'd run!
If you were me, you'd be good-looking

No worries there, I don't have the cash either way.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:41 PM

INDIANABANZAI

Quote:
Originally posted by MightyRoar:
I heard in interview with Lucas, where he said that he intentionally leaked the title "Revenge ..." to dupe manufacturers of non-official merchandise to have the wrong name on them. Then when the film was released, he came up with the whole "well, revenge isn't really a jedi trait" thing

*looks at the 'Revenge of the Jedi' patch received from the official fan club, lo these many years ago*

Hmph.

Personally I like the story that the original title for Star Trek II was supposed to be 'The Vengance of Khan', but then changed to 'The Wrath of Khan' because of Lucas revealing the title of Episode VI. Paramount supposedly didn't want their franchise film to have a similar title.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:35 PM

LEGOLAD

Quote:
Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
I thought Jedi was good. I think the only things Joss would change is making the Ewoks menacing rather than cute and he'd actually kill some characters.

Well, then, maybe it's just me who feels let down by Jedi. But I don't know; Empire Strikes Back is probably one of my favourite movies of all time, and I just felt like Jedi cheapened the story by having everything resolved by a bunch of furry muppets.

And personally, I always wanted to see Luke and Vader join forces (ahem; pun may be intended) and fight the Emperor together; the Emperor's death in the film seemed way too simple and contrived for such a powerful character. You could still have Vader die in the course of the battle, although hopefully he wouldn't look like the same chubby bald guy underneath the mask; wow, did I ever hate that scene.

In terms of what Joss actually said, though, I found the interview I was thinking of: www.infocusmag.com/05augustseptember/whedonuncut.htm
I'll update my original post to include the link. It's fairly long; he discusses pretty much every project he's ever worked on (someone really needs to put his X-Men script on the internet, because I really need to read it) but it's definitely worth a look. Probably the best interview I've seen with him.

"We need a hood ornament."

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:49 PM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER

The Ewoks should have been Wookies. And Leia should not have turned out to be Luke's sister.
The rest of ROTJ was pretty damn cool. Although, I kinda would have liked it better if Luke had been able to train some of the rebel forces to be Jedi, or Padwan (a stupid word IMO BTW) so that when the final battle takes place on Endor, it's between Storm Troopers (that shouldn't be wearing white in a forest!), Wookies, and a few green Jedi. That would have been sweet. Bit whatever. ROTJ as it was is still better then what GL has turned "ANH" into with his crisis of conscience.

That said, I own an Ewok. He's in my attic right now. I bought it with money I got for Christmas one year along with two Douglas Adams books. Good Christmas. ;)

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon

JustAnotherMudder=NYPinTA Goodness.

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:06 PM

BELOWZERO

Quote:
Originally posted by TiVO25:
I seem to remember reading an interview or listening to a commentary somewhere where Joss had said if he'd done RotJ he'd have killed off Luke & Leia and made the movie about Han.

Don't quote me on that though, I could just be smokin' somethin'.

YEAH!!! Now there is a movie I could watch over and over and over....!!!

"Do not go gentle into that good night....
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. . ."
--Dylan Thomas

Though my soul may set in darkness
It will rise in perfect light.
I have loved the stars too fondly
To be fearful of the night.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 5:48 AM

CYBERSNARK

I actually love RotJ exactly as it came out.

The oldest memory I have is watching RotJ on TV, sitting with my dad. I've always associated that movie with fun --the good guys win, the bad guys are defeated, and there's a happy ending. It taught me that sometimes the good guys don't have to die. More character deaths would have made for good drama, but a less satisfying adventure.

And am I the only one on this planet who actually liked the Ewoks?

*dances away*
Yub nub, eecha yub-nub. . .

(Oh, and the droids couldn't have been scrapped: they're the narrators, and Joss does understand the concept of "narrative immunity.")

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 12:54 PM

MOSS

The ewoks and the rebel force would have had the S++t kicked out of them (well they were the emperors crack troops), the only people left would have been a few jedi pilots and troops, they would have been captured, eventually set free. A small group of them would have found a freighter, named it Serenity blah blah and then the real story would have begun.

Saying that "Jedi" was a great film.

Ok, who ordered the poo poo platter?

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Friday, March 17, 2006 6:39 PM

CARTOON

ROTJ according to Whedon?

#1) C3PO and R2D2 would've been weaponized, merciless death machines.

#2) Endor would've been occupied by Reavers instead of Ewoks, who would've feasted on Chewbacca shortly after he landed on the Endor moon (which would've reaked with decay and toxic waste -- as a former imperial dumping ground).

#3) Jabba would've disembowelled Han Solo (who never would've actually appeared in the film -- aside from his various organs strung about Jabba's palace), and sent bits of his entrails to other former employees who owed him money. Leia, herself, would've secured one of Han's ears (or something not too large or particularly smelly) as a keepsake, which she would've held over the fat guy's head as she impaled him with a spear and spit in his face. (Luke would've mounted Han's skull on the front of his X-wing as a tribute to his former friend.)

#4) When departing Dagobah, Luke would've left a homing beacon for the nearby Reaver fleet to find, and finish off what the maggots didn't get of Yoda.

#5) The Rancor monster would've torn off one of Luke's arms, eaten it, then used Luke's head as a tissue to plug its runny nose.

#6) Lando would've been packing a chain gun, which he lovingly refered to as "Hannah".

#7) The Emperor would've had blue hands.

#8) Darth Vader would've incessantly babbled nonsensically, then started kicking people backwards around poles whenever the Emperor said "Obi's da' man!"

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:41 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

I liked the Ewoks too. A little farther up on this thread, I kind of ranted about why they won. anyway, there are some interesting things on this thread. It's kind of amusing in some cases.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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