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Originally posted by singate:
Personally I'd try putting Death in a full nelson until he, or she, cried uncle.

We all die, so what's the point in getting bent out of shape over it?

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We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

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Originally posted by mima:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

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Mima's psych 101 on River who offered herself up for comment:

As soon as I read your first post, i knew that you were living in isolation. "only people who distance themselves have that attitude" i thought, "this person doesn't care about anyone." Then you confirmed it with your second post. The denial and anger in your posts makes me think that perhaps you're a)jealous you haven't found a true connection yet b)still pissed at your parents for dying, especially if you felt unloved when they did.

I agree that most humans suck. the endeavor I've chosen is to be strong enough to live life with an open heart. be very very cautious, but still reach out to people. turn from those who betray you, spend time on people who don't. reach out to people in need, and many times simple human decency (rare, i know) will build a connection that lasts. and when you do find a precious friend/lover/family member who wants to know who you are and still respects you and isn't afraid to share themself, it makes all of life and the other crappy humans bearable.

and you can't have that "oh death is no big deal" thing anymore unless you have a really really strong christian faith (which i dont). so if you don't have the "souls will meet again" thing going on, the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death.

we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger. community is what you found here river, and the anonymity of the boards is what makes you feel safe to share. it's why i love them too, plus that this particular set of boards is not full of stupid idiots. if the internet went away today- wouldn't you struggle, personally?

so that's my take on your comments- basically you're being a coward. and you're missing out. safety is lonely. that's why when you said "i am so complete" i laughed out loud. you are laying your {bleeding} proverbial heart out for strangers because you are not complete. you seek community. we all do. we can't help it. i've really enjoyed reading your posts on other threads. thanks for being here. i see you river.

now if you see people in pain and you think "fools, you're so weak. death is certain so you're such dope"- you are mistaken in your judgement. instead you should be thinking "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?"

and as for your secondary rant, i don't agree with it all. send it directly to the people who insulted you and don't try to paint the boards sexist. i've been here for years and have never not once had a person who flamed at me by throwing my gender into the flame.

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:


My family skews toward the very old, so death has been a presence (or lack thereof) in my life for as long as I can recall. Mortality is just a part of things.

(I felt strange at my dad's funeral, looking around at everyone crying, and not shedding any tears of my own.)

I've kinda come to look on it as a blessing though; the men of my family don't age well. Senility, Alzheimer's, cancer. . .

(Dad was suffering, toward the end. Maybe not in pain, but his mind just. . . wasn't working right. He was forgetting people. He's not anymore, though. He's fine now, and I'll see him again, eventually.)

My mind is the only part of me that I've ever been proud of. The thought of losing my faculties is more terrifying than death and whatever might follow it. Like Bryan Adams said; hope to die before I get old.

Not suicide though; that's a coward's way. 'Sides, I wanna see how this story ends. I intend to burn out, bright and hot. I want people to remember me.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?

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Death affects me like three people. Like Spock might see it, it is merely the logical end to a beginning. Like Kirk, I am deeply affected, yet I go on (think Edith Keeler), and privatly, like Buffy, I am momentarily destroyed.
I have many sides to me.

Schitzomaybe Chrisisall

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Originally posted by SameErtia:
Wow.
I don't think I can even respond to this thread after reading the responses posted so far.

I am a Priestess of the Goddess. I understand the cycle of life, and I understand the transformations of death.

This does not mean that I do not grieve. Grief is not for the dead, it is for the living. My dear friend Eric is out of pain now. Somewhere he is safe and whole.

But that doesn't mean that I don't weep for myself, and for my loss of a friend. It doesn't mean that I don't occassionally see something that reminds me of him that causes my eyes to well with tears, and my heart to slow just a little.

Grief is healthy, it is as much a part of the lifecycle as living and dying. "What's the big deal"???? How can you even ask that? Someone who I love, who was a dear part of my life is gone from it. I cannot see him, cannot hear him, cannot laugh at his jokes, or look foreward to his next email. Am I not allowed to weep for my loss, and for the loss his family has suffered?

My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.

It isn't a weakness. It's one our greatest gifts.

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Originally posted by SameErtia:
My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.

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Originally posted by mima:

I said:
" the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death. we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger." (a really cynical view of love as a need to feed the ego- i thought you'd dig that river!)

I think you're saying:
if you have no personal ties whatsoever, you have no need for self image/connections, thus are complete... so death has no meaning because the loss of others does not touch you and the loss of yourself does not matter.

i say: "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?" And I absolutely agree with Sameertia= grief is for the living.

you say: "If this is a good thing I want to have nothing to do with it. If this is the price of being close to humans...you can leave me out of it."

they are utterly different world views. where you see weakness, i see strength. where you see wasted energy i see an aspect of community- which added value to my life. you acknowledged that feeling grief is something you don't get. so i explained my version, as have others. you have simply restated your opinion. respond to ours.

on a more personal note: river... you're getting testy. this thread becomes about you when you respond to every single post personally. are you trying to convince us how superior you are? there is scorn all through your posts.

you're obviously really put out with having to witness grief in others. i get that you like being a machine. but then you get huffy about being called "hollow." yes there are many personalities and beliefs, and you just put serenityinscotland down for sharing hers. explain to her that even though you have not a shred of compassion for someone who has just lost a loved one, ("All the screaming and crying that they do seriously throws a wet towel into what could have been a good day")­ you are not "hollow."

why do you care you are labelled hollow? does it affect your self image? do you not like to think that there is someone who feels you are less worthy because of your isolation? see, this is my point: i challenge you are complete in yourself. you have needs of the ego: that means you want connections to validate that ego. whether it's membership in a tv's fan club or not. or you wouldn't want this chance to defend your anger at grief. you wouldn't feel the need to rip on people who feel grief. you wouldn't care about posting your opinions. you are isolated, you like feeling safe from the wreckage that can be grief, yet you ask people to talk to you about it while sharing deeply private things. like you're poking a scab.

i'm glad you're "good." i think you're clever and a good thinker. i acknowledge you have a different personality. now i'm challenging you to connect to me. see me, and respond without being huffy.

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Originally posted by mima:
thanks for the post river. that's the kind of response i was looking for. i also liked the one you made to sameertia. i feel like you're responding to the ideas more, not just restating. i appreciate your willingness to clarify.

the huffy feeling i got from your dislike of the word hollow. you still haven't explained why you didn't like that label?

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I really don't have a problem with the word hollow.

Anyway, people have there own ways of coping with death. Some people work a lot so they won't have to think about it. Some people get all bent out of shape and their universe is crushed for a while. Some on the other hand get thoughtful and write a lot about how they feel about everything, and some start to eat a lot and do drugs, plus drink in order to fill up the emptiness around them in order to cope. Some people close up and never open again. Some people stop eating and sleeping, and some people commit suicide.

There are some cultures where they take the dead body, surround it with food and drink, and then everyone has like this party with the corpse right there. Now that's creepy.

River

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

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Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.


Chrisisall

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

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Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.


Chrisisall

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Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I only read the first few posts about this and frankly I'm amazed!!!

So what, it's now 'uncool' to morn the death of someone you love!

What the hell! This world is ridiculous!

OK I'll gladly fall into the uncool category and raise my hand and say I lost it when my grandfather passed away recently. Now when I say lost it I mean I shed several tears over a man who had a big hand in making my childhood a memorable one.

Now I may be all manner of wrong in feeling that way but frankly - I don't care.

This is one of the more ridiculous things I've come across here. Here on a forum that on a daily basis mourns the cancelation of a TV show.

While it's all so very philosophical to just sit and dispassionately look at the cycle of life and death as one great big moment of cosmic indigestion, I tend to find that the very human instinct of fear of death as a genuine factor to understanding the pleasures in life.

If people think death nothing to fear then I suggest you've never had to really struggle for life. Maybe y'all should take yourselves off to a far less sympathetic exsistence somewhere, where life is a real struggle, just for the more basic of things like warmth, and water and food. Oh I know it's a cliché to bring up such arguments, but clichés are such because they have a ring of truth about them.

I guarantee any of you, who have to do without some of your more basic of 'gifts' in your lives, you would crumble very easily, and I might add, with zero digntiy.

The
Somnambulist

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I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River

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Fair 'nuff. I didn't read all those posts. I did focus more on yours that's true. I'm sorry you've had it hard in your younger years as have many. I too have lived in under privilidged countries where I've had to see my friends I was growing up with have to fight for breakfast off a rubbsih heap. My reaction though has gone contrary to you I guess. But if you did your stint in the Peace Corp then you must have had a very different outlook to have done so, at least a different one to your current attitude which would appear to be more a symptom to a present malaise.

I don't have any wish to change your mind or anyone elses, I merely voiced mine. I don't know your circumstances to any full extent so I cannot say wether I'd be dead in your shoes or not. And I'm afraid I'm not going to enter into a comparison of what ugly things we may or may not have seen in our lives.

As it stands you and I are very much divided over this one.

The
Somnambulist

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.

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Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River

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I too have no intention in engaging in a 'who's the biggest gorilla in the park' Argument, but I want to clear something up with you. One would think that a person who lived and worked in other parts of the world would have a very forgiving outlook on life. My attitude during the peace corp. was one of a person who wanted to help where she could, and I was very determined to do so which I did. My personality at the time was what one could call a normal one. Happy, balanced, nurturing etc. I was very social, and had little stomach for people who couldn’t or wouldn’t accept the gifts that life gave them.

Then I quit the Peace Corp and got all ambitious, and after a hair raising 10 years I was in charge of my own company which has splinter into 12 facilities. I make great money, but in the process of all of that, I think I lost a certain amount of humanity along the way. Added to all the fun experiences I’ve had in the last 7 years, the end result is an apathetical bitch that could care less if people live or die. Isolation is my only friend, and humans are expendable.

I think this is a good explanation. I covered all the bases. Anyway, I thought I would give you a little bit more information. Now enough of me and back to the thread.

River

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Originally posted by jtskier1200r:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, isomething which brings pain and suffering.

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Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River

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I dont know how to do the fancy quote stuff, so here is my thoughts in a very bad format:

- The reason I thought I felt fear in you is because I thought it is what motivates you to not get into relationships. I understand that you dont fear death anymore for it cant touch you, but I thought you felt the pain of death, which is what causes you to live your life in such a way that it isnt there. It seemed to me like you were living your live based out of this fear, and therefore shut yourself up because of it. Im glad to hear I was wrong.

- I heard helplessness and sadness becuase of the talk of suicide and the general tone of your posts Also, I have a hard time imagining how I could find joy without a God and without people with whom to share my life. My wife is gone for the weekend, and I already am starting to get lonely... :)

- One question, what did you mean when you said you were too "willful" for religion? Just curious.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
it doesnt stop you from having your own experience, so stay on topic people and leave the psych 101 at the door.

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