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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't know what all the drama's about regarding death. I've lost friends through suicide and natural causes. I've watched my friends go through the death of their parents and let me tell you; they were all over the place grieving, and getting all deep with thoughts and stuff. I'll never understand it.

Death for me means that this stupid madness called life is over, but some people take it in different ways. So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?



River

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Originally posted by Agatsu:
That's not dealing with either one, that's running away from it. Should be quite obvious to someone with an IQ of 185+.
It's not "living", either. I was more or less constantly stoned for weeks - months, even - until 10 days ago, when I just quit and started dealing with things. Started LIVING again.
Death will take care of itself.

Proud member of the FFF.net Event Team
The Serenity Summer Campaign is on, baby - prepare to kick some serious pigu!
September 30th is Serenity 'Versary! Be there or be a purple-belted poop-head. (<- not the official slogan.)
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Originally posted by Agatsu:
Death will take care of itself.

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Originally posted by Agatsu:
Yeah well, but why worry about something you have no influence over anyways when you can rather cherish life until the two meet?

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Originally posted by minime:
Hi River,
My fault, I revived the thread, I came across it, and couldn't leave the last poster as being the news of a recent death.
I have to say, I'm intrigued by the conversation. Last year I spent 6 months working in outback Papua New Guinea in a hospital, and while I was there I watched a lot of people die. Some old, some young (10 days), some could have been helped in 'first world' countries, some probably not...
That sounds a little like I was sitting back observing disinterestedly as people died - not true. I was there to try and stop that from happening...
So, while I very much personally relate to how you feel - I currently have several doctors and friends trying to convince me that I have clinical depression (part of the price I pay for having doctors as friends) - and have spent inordinate amounts of my own time contemplating death, for me, death is still, generally, the enemy.

I realise this may not at all address your situation - just my own reflection on reading this post and having visited a friend who is into his 12th month of post-traumatic stress disorder after 30 years of life as a cop - policeman, for non-Aussies - seeing horrible car accidents and shootings etc.

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Originally posted by Agatsu:
I guess that's why people say "I'm sorry about your loss" instead of "I'm sorry for the person that died.".
No matter what you believe, the deceased either just cease to exist and therefore have no worries, or they're in heaven or whatever, or being reborn.
Neither is really bad for the dead, is it?
It's the having to live without the person that sucks. Which is why I condemn suicide, because it's selfish and causes a lot of suffering to a lot of people, just because one person didn't want to "suffer" anymore. Suicide is a "Fuck you!" to everyone who cares about you. So don't any of you do that or I'ma have to kick your ass.



Proud member of the FFF.net Event Team
The Serenity Summer Campaign is on, baby - prepare to kick some serious pigu!
September 30th is Serenity 'Versary! Be there or be a purple-belted poop-head. (<- not the official slogan.)
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Originally posted by Genetrix:
Not all suicidal people are the same... You can't give them all the benefit of the doubt. I understand, for instance, people knowing they need to die (if they're on life support, or maybe if they're saving someone they love in the process of dying themselves, or like when

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Boone let himself die

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in Lost--I'm still sad about that!) but suicides can be selfish, for the simple fact that there is nothing in the world that can be done with only one intention. Or at least, I can't think of anything. Anything can be done with the intention of being selfish, so therefore, some people, at least, have killed themselves for their own benefits.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:


I admire people who complete a successful suicide. Those mentioned people had what it took to go through and complete their self termination. I don't see it as an act of cowardness, nor do I see it as an act of weakness. I really don't see it as selfhisness either.

I'm not saying that what they did was wrong. It was right for themselves. I doubt that any person wanting to kill themselves is saying "fuck you" to all the people out there. I don't think that they are thinking that when the moment comes. I BET you they are thinking about how they failed themselves. How they failed in being able to cope with the madness of this life. How they are ashamed that they could not adapt.

The hardest part about being alive is being able to live here on earth. I mean think about it. Every day that I live I think about dying. Everyday. There is nothing about this reality that brings pleaseure, or satisfaction to me. I'm done here. Whatever mission I was sent here for is done. I want to go home wherever that is.

When you think about it human life is boring and predictable. Sure there are the few out there that are born with a destiny that affects many people, but the rest of us are here to pay or bills, pay the rent, go to school, go to work, have children, put them the school, watch movies, buy food...etc. Predictable. What's the point?

And to the people who knows someone who has killed themselves...don't make a big, hairy, thing out of yourself talking about how they were "selfish" You didnt take them seriously in their pain. You never really listrened to them...not ever. If you did, and if they felt heard, they wouldnt have killed themselves so quickly if they knew it would hurt you so much. You would have given them a reason to live...just by listening, but most humans are stupid so I say bring the suicides on.

River


A lot of people don't get that.

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Originally posted by Agatsu:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:


I admire people who complete a successful suicide. Those mentioned people had what it took to go through and complete their self termination. I don't see it as an act of cowardness, nor do I see it as an act of weakness. I really don't see it as selfhisness either.

I'm not saying that what they did was wrong. It was right for themselves. I doubt that any person wanting to kill themselves is saying "fuck you" to all the people out there. I don't think that they are thinking that when the moment comes. I BET you they are thinking about how they failed themselves. How they failed in being able to cope with the madness of this life. How they are ashamed that they could not adapt.

The hardest part about being alive is being able to live here on earth. I mean think about it. Every day that I live I think about dying. Everyday. There is nothing about this reality that brings pleaseure, or satisfaction to me. I'm done here. Whatever mission I was sent here for is done. I want to go home wherever that is.

When you think about it human life is boring and predictable. Sure there are the few out there that are born with a destiny that affects many people, but the rest of us are here to pay or bills, pay the rent, go to school, go to work, have children, put them the school, watch movies, buy food...etc. Predictable. What's the point?

And to the people who knows someone who has killed themselves...don't make a big, hairy, thing out of yourself talking about how they were "selfish" You didnt take them seriously in their pain. You never really listrened to them...not ever. If you did, and if they felt heard, they wouldnt have killed themselves so quickly if they knew it would hurt you so much. You would have given them a reason to live...just by listening, but most humans are stupid so I say bring the suicides on.

River


A lot of people don't get that.

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Okay, here's a little story for you...
When I met one of my now best friends, it was shortly after her best friend was found by her parents, hanging from the ceiling. The girl who commited suicide had spent the night before with my friend, and there were NO INDICATIONS WHATSOEVER that she was going to kill herself, and my friend is a sensitive person, she should have picked up SOMETHING.
Or are you saying if you give people subtle hints and they don't figure out you're going to kill yourself, it's THOSE people's fault? Lemme tell you that my friend grieves and addresses reproaches to herself for not seeing it coming (and there really was no way) to this very day (it happened about 15 years ago), and her parents have led an empty, joy-less zombie-like life since then.
So here's where the selfishness comes in. If you're contemplating suicide you're so full of yourself that you fail to see the people who love you, and how your decision is going to affect the rest of their whole lifes.
As far as I see it, there's 2 reasons to want to die. One is overwhelming self-pity, and the other is "tiredness of life". The first one is a selfish reason for suicide, the second a stupid one.
I used to be quite depressed for a long time, and constantly stoned, but all it took was me falling in love to have a look at my life, go "WTF?!", quit smoking weed and get my life sorted out. Now I feel invincible, and full of energy, and my friends are going wild because they like my change so much. I don't even know if the girl fell in love with me as well yet, but even if not, the sensation of falling in love was like an adrenaline shot to the heart. Even if we don't get together, she showed me that there indeed are things worth living for, and most of all, PEOPLE worth living for.

Besides, EVERYONE affects EVERYONE. Life is interaction.


Proud member of the FFF.net Event Team
The Serenity Summer Campaign is on, baby - prepare to kick some serious pigu!
September 30th is Serenity 'Versary! Be there or be a purple-belted poop-head. (<- not the official slogan.)
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Bruce let himeself die
Tom Let Himself Die
Karma let herself die
Sandra let herself die
Susan let herself die
Rick let himself die
Jason let himself die
Mark let himself die
Mario let himself die
Jessica let herself die because she was stupid and I MEAN stupid

These are all the friends that I have lost through suicide. All of them, and they are the lucky ones except for Jessica. She was too weird to even be alive and the fact that she made it so far was just plain weird. The reason I go on is because I carry all of their stuff with me.

River

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
My mistake in life was assuming that I was here to be happy. I'm not here to be happy or comfortable.

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Originally posted by Agatsu:
So, were you drugged or on your way to jumping off a bridge when you told us a few weeks ago about how fun that date was? Didn't that give you hope that there might be a few diamonds hidden in this big pile of shit?

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Originally posted by christhecynic:
River I'm confused.

You say that they are the lucky ones and you admire the ones who pull it off, which they obviously did.

Then you say they're weaker than you. (Unless there is some other definition of "strongest" I'm unaware of.)

How to those two things go together, they had the will and ability to get themselves into a position you consider better. It doesn't strike me as weak.

So here's where I'm confused, do you consider suicide a sign of weakenss or not? If you do why do you admire the weak?

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The other thing I want to say is more on topic.

It's about how people look at suicide, and that's part of dealing with death.

You said:
"I really don't see it as selfishness either.

... It was right for themselves. I doubt that any person wanting to kill themselves is saying "fuck you" to all the people out there. I don't think that they are thinking that when the moment comes. I BET you they are thinking about how they themselves have failed themselves. How they failed in being able to cope with the madness of this life. How they are ashamed that they could not adapt."

And the second paragraph you wrote is exactly why people consider it selfish. The people are doing what is right for themselves, thinking about themselves, and not about others. They aren't thinking about the fact that, whether intended or not, they are saying, "I'm more important than everyone else and I don't care about how much pain I'm going to cause everyone I know because I want to do this and don't give a damn about all of you," which does, kind of, translate to, "Fuck you."

The reason that I bring this up is that the reasons you say it is not selfish are the same reasons others say it is. I think that the reason people deal with death in so many diferent ways is that even when start with exactly the same ideas about it the reach very different conclusions.

Suicide is not the only thing like this. What people may look at as a good death others may look at as horrible. What seems to some as peaceful long life seems like uselessly wasting away to others. How one deals with death all rests upon how one looks at it.

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
My mistake in life was assuming that I was here to be happy. I'm not here to be happy or comfortable.

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Of course not, no-one is. You're here to make others happy and comfortable.

Everyone of us is broken, and there's not a one who can fix themselves. But you can help fix others, and just maybe, in the process, you'll find someone who can fix you.

(I learned that from InuYasha. )

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Originally posted by Agatsu:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Bruce let himeself die
Tom Let Himself Die
Karma let herself die
Sandra let herself die
Susan let herself die
Rick let himself die
Jason let himself die
Mark let himself die
Mario let himself die
Jessica let herself die because she was stupid and I MEAN stupid

These are all the friends that I have lost through suicide. All of them, and they are the lucky ones except for Jessica. She was too weird to even be alive and the fact that she made it so far was just plain weird. The reason I go on is because I carry all of their stuff with me.

River

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That's a lot of people, what the hell is going on over there?

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
What can I say Mr. Christhecynic?

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
How is it possible to help others when you can't help yourself?

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by minime:
Hi River,
My fault, I revived the thread, I came across it, and couldn't leave the last poster as being the news of a recent death.
I have to say, I'm intrigued by the conversation. Last year I spent 6 months working in outback Papua New Guinea in a hospital, and while I was there I watched a lot of people die. Some old, some young (10 days), some could have been helped in 'first world' countries, some probably not...
That sounds a little like I was sitting back observing disinterestedly as people died - not true. I was there to try and stop that from happening...
So, while I very much personally relate to how you feel - I currently have several doctors and friends trying to convince me that I have clinical depression (part of the price I pay for having doctors as friends) - and have spent inordinate amounts of my own time contemplating death, for me, death is still, generally, the enemy.

I realise this may not at all address your situation - just my own reflection on reading this post and having visited a friend who is into his 12th month of post-traumatic stress disorder after 30 years of life as a cop - policeman, for non-Aussies - seeing horrible car accidents and shootings etc.

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Good to know someone here sees the picture for what it is. This is not about me...not about me in any way. I'm not depressed, I'm just sick of life. Nothing new, nor nothing special here. I have a few doctors as friends and I suggest you steer clear of them. They mean well, but they can be a problem. Thank god for my security clearance, or I would have been locked up a long time ago, and locked up I should be.

Sorry you had to see a bunch of old people and kids die. Good job on trying to stop it. I've seen enough children die in my time and it really puts a zap on your head. My problem is that I could never distance myself from the suffering of another. I have this amazing ability...call it a curse, to to be there when someone suffers. I take it all in. I can't block it...never could, and I hold it all in because there is no other place it can go.

In the Peace Corp I can't tell you how many times a child died in my arms. In certain parts of the world, life is cheap, and humans are expendable. You can't go through all of that and not have something taken away from your soul. You paid a price and you will continue paying that price for the rest of your life. Whoops, I think I went too far in explaining. Sorry.

I'm glad that death is still your enemy. You sound like you still have some life in you which is a good thing so I've heard. Tip. Keep a bunch of people who love you around you. Stay involved in human activity. Never spend too much time alone, and for god sakes don't drink and write.

Look to the dead to teach you survival.

River

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Originally posted by minime:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by minime:
Hi River,
My fault, I revived the thread, I came across it, and couldn't leave the last poster as being the news of a recent death.
I have to say, I'm intrigued by the conversation. Last year I spent 6 months working in outback Papua New Guinea in a hospital, and while I was there I watched a lot of people die. Some old, some young (10 days), some could have been helped in 'first world' countries, some probably not...
That sounds a little like I was sitting back observing disinterestedly as people died - not true. I was there to try and stop that from happening...
So, while I very much personally relate to how you feel - I currently have several doctors and friends trying to convince me that I have clinical depression (part of the price I pay for having doctors as friends) - and have spent inordinate amounts of my own time contemplating death, for me, death is still, generally, the enemy.

I realise this may not at all address your situation - just my own reflection on reading this post and having visited a friend who is into his 12th month of post-traumatic stress disorder after 30 years of life as a cop - policeman, for non-Aussies - seeing horrible car accidents and shootings etc.

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Good to know someone here sees the picture for what it is. This is not about me...not about me in any way. I'm not depressed, I'm just sick of life. Nothing new, nor nothing special here. I have a few doctors as friends and I suggest you steer clear of them. They mean well, but they can be a problem. Thank god for my security clearance, or I would have been locked up a long time ago, and locked up I should be.

Sorry you had to see a bunch of old people and kids die. Good job on trying to stop it. I've seen enough children die in my time and it really puts a zap on your head. My problem is that I could never distance myself from the suffering of another. I have this amazing ability...call it a curse, to to be there when someone suffers. I take it all in. I can't block it...never could, and I hold it all in because there is no other place it can go.

In the Peace Corp I can't tell you how many times a child died in my arms. In certain parts of the world, life is cheap, and humans are expendable. You can't go through all of that and not have something taken away from your soul. You paid a price and you will continue paying that price for the rest of your life. Whoops, I think I went too far in explaining. Sorry.

I'm glad that death is still your enemy. You sound like you still have some life in you which is a good thing so I've heard. Tip. Keep a bunch of people who love you around you. Stay involved in human activity. Never spend too much time alone, and for god sakes don't drink and write.

Look to the dead to teach you survival.

River

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Didn't mean to imply I thought you were depressed, just that some people like slapping the label.

Thanks for the advice... you are correct about the price you pay for trying to be there... but if I had to make the same choice over, I'd do it again - hell, I'm in the process of signing on to do the same kind of work again.

In the meantime, i hope you find something that sparks your interest in life again. No idea what it could be, but I hope you find it.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

I'm thinking about finding another forum to hang out on. I'm tired of being River6213. I know, I know!!! Don't let the door hit me on the way out.

So tired... *yawn*

River

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Originally posted by Agatsu:
WTF? You don't like us anymore?
Come on, it's fun and warm here, especially now, with all the positive vibes from S-Day and all! You could try picking up some of those and join the party!

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You are a very wordy one Dreamtrove.

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Your story is very interesting. It's very sad, and makes a person's guts (Mine) twist and turn just reading it. It appears that you have been on a dramatic, life's, journey. The fact that you are not on top of a roof with a sniper's rifle leads me to have some admiration for you. My experiences are pretty nasty, but my experiences appears to not hold a candle to yours. I do not know who I would be now if I had had your experiences.

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You strike me as the sort of person that gives everything in your life a serious moment of real consideration, and don't allow things to pass you by without an opinion regarding it. I would have to say that you are a very strong person, but it also makes me wonder that your surviving so much in your life that you've might have become the person you currently don't want to be? I could be wrong, but mind wrenching experiences does have the nasty habit of changing who we are.

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As far as death is concerned (Seeing that is what this thread is about) since I last posted on this forum I lost 2 more people that I knew very well. One of them I rather liked a lot, and the other I sort of hated, but had to deal with them all the time to the point where i got to know them. I would have to say that after all the people I have lost in my life I really don't, or no longer feel that I need to "handle death" because death is going to come to you, or your friends, and family whether you are ready for it of not; whether you can handle it or not. it's going to come, so I guess I don't handle death. I don't see any reason to handle it. People die and that's just how things go.

-River

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