Joss and Firefly by strokingmypeter

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Joss and Firefly

POSTED BY: STROKINGMYPETER
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 4, 2006 00:22
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VIEWED: 4868
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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:47 PM

First off let me tell everyone that I have never in my life been a fan of Buffy or Angel. I never watched either show while they aired and to be honest I have no interest in watching them. Thus I don't really have any background when it comes to Joss's work. So I have a question regarding Firefly and Joss, personally. Everyone knows that what makes Firefly special is the bond(s) that tie the whole crew of Serenity together and how they trust each other and how they allow that trust to help them stay together and alive. I have been wondering if this is what Joss really feels about humanity and society too? Firefly is his show after all, and when people write things often it comes from their heart and reflects how they also feel about the world. So what I really would like to know is if this is typical of Joss, to express his own feelings and ideas through his work? Did he do it with Buffy and Angel? I love all themes in Firefly and I happen to agree with a lot of them and I think many of the ideas in the series really can be applied to real life. I was just wondering what you guys thought.

I WANT TO BELIEVE

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:51 PM

PENGUIN

If you want to know a little about Joss, listen to his Equality Now speech...

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:11 PM

Shame you have no interest in Buffy or Angel because - yes - it is very much evident on those shows as well.

They got me to love Joss and led me to Firefly. Those shows have amazing relationships, great statements about cultural things (i.e the Buffy episode HUSH was a great example of how talking actually interferes with actual communciation) and of course his trademark humor (and of course rocket launchers which we know he loves!)

The other comment is right too - check out his Equality Now speech.

This is why "Joss is Boss"!

---------
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart."

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:18 PM

AERIN

I think all of Joss's shows are about making a family from the people you love and trust, even if they are a motley assortment. The family/friends theme is also present in Buffy. It's the relationships between the characters that really make the show interesting. There's that same sense of making it through life together. On some level the vampires and demons are just a gimick added to a soap opera, where they represent the ordinary problems that everyone faces. The fmaily theme seems less prevalent in Angel, but I think it's still there.

I imagine it's Joss's way of saying that we need people. I would like to assume that the strong families he builds on film are representative of his own.

Jayne: I once hit a guy in the neck from 500 yards with a bent scope. Don't that count upstairs?
Book: Oh, it'll be taken into consideration.
Jayne: You made that sound kind of ominous.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Interesting post. I myself have never watched Buffy or Angel before. I've seen a couple of episodes, but I could never really get into them. I was already out of highschool when Buffy was on, I think. My brothers watched it, but they were younger and I just assumed they did because of the same reason that all adolescent boys watch anything on the WB. I truly cannot stand that channel. After watching Firefly and loving it, I may give those series another chance from the start (My brother has all of the seasons on DVD that were released). Can't figure out why I didn't watch it other then the fact that it was on WB. I love vampires, leather and beautiful girls. Maybe that rediculous movie put me off too. I had such a crush on Kristy Swanson back then after Maniquinne 2.

I really don't know anything about Joss except that he seems to have quite a following. I can't believe some of the shirts that I've seen saying things like Joss is my new Master. I couldn't see that shirt being worn anywhere except a convention somewhere. Everybody with a voice like Joss's has a following. My personal opinion on that is if you're wearing a shirt saying "Joss is my Master", you're missing the whole point of Firefly. It is about great relationships and making it through really hard times with others you care about (kind of the way it seems a lot of his fans have come together), but more importantly, it's about standing up for what you believe and being an individual... not being manipulated by a larger entity that is trying to meddle and micromanage your life. At least that's my take... who knows. Maybe Joss gets off on the fact that a lot of people seem to consider him Master or God. I'm not judging anybody. I'm happy that he gave me this show, and whatever people need to do to be happy in this tough world is none of my business.

I'm not the type to really get to know too much about anybody. I love music, and I love playing guitar, but I could probably only name one or two guitarist from any band. Sometimes I think I'm afraid that if I read what the creator of things that I love was thinking when they made it, that it will change what it means to me or how it makes me feel. That's the beauty of art... especially great art. Everybody takes something from it that means something to them.

I'm sure if you really wanted to know, all of the information is out there, and I would imagine that this is as good a place as any to find it.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:49 PM

ZZETTA13

Good and interesting post.

Like you I have never seen Buffy or Angel. I didn't see FF either when it was on tv. Didn't catch Serenity at the theater. So what in the hell am I doing here?

Like many others I caught the show much later. Wish I'd caught it earlier but the reality is that I didn't.

I still have LUV for the Joss creation though. So I'm here.

Joss and crews writting show that we are all brothers and sisters and one big family.On this earth or out in the verse. But lets not forget the Ying/Yang, good/bad, controlers, hands of blue and all of the other things that are the bad part of our beings.

Joss's creations talk to us and are belivable,not from a outter-world point of view, but from the human one.If it were all Hi-tech and special f/x I don't think this verse would have become the work of art that it has.

I'm going to stop here because I don't want to go overboard and sound to preachy. Just wanted to throw in a couple thoughts.

Z

Just to add a side note. I never see a world without sin.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 7:49 PM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I really don't know anything about Joss except that he seems to have quite a following. I can't believe some of the shirts that I've seen saying things like Joss is my new Master. I couldn't see that shirt being worn anywhere except a convention somewhere. Everybody with a voice like Joss's has a following. My personal opinion on that is if you're wearing a shirt saying "Joss is my Master", you're missing the whole point of Firefly. It is about great relationships and making it through really hard times with others you care about (kind of the way it seems a lot of his fans have come together), but more importantly, it's about standing up for what you believe and being an individual... not being manipulated by a larger entity that is trying to meddle and micromanage your life. At least that's my take... who knows. Maybe Joss gets off on the fact that a lot of people seem to consider him Master or God. I'm not judging anybody. I'm happy that he gave me this show, and whatever people need to do to be happy in this tough world is none of my business.

I think it's worth noting that the "Joss Whedon is my Master Now" t-shirts are a parody of the Star Wars III line when Anakin changes his allegiance. I've always taken it to signify the change of geek allegiance from George Lucas and his trashing of the Star Wars franchise, to Joss on the release of Serenity. (Both movies were originally slated to come out within a month of each other.) It is quite tongue in cheek.

You are right, however, that there are folks who consider Joss as infallable, but that's hardly "being manipulated by a larger entity that is trying to meddle and micromanage your life". :)
It's just people who really connect with his work (often the very aspect you've cited), and trust that they will continue to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:14 PM

ZOID

Dearest 'stroking':

Lest we forget, Joss was one of the main writers on "Roseanne", too. I loved that show before it 'jumped the shark' with Tom Arnold's first appearance. (NB: How does that guy have a career that doesn't require a mop?) The beauty of "Roseanne" was its heart and realism in its depiction of family relationships and interactions.

I've told most of my converts that (one of) the attraction(s) in Firefly for me was that -- even though it's not a comedy -- it is funny as hell. But it's not one-liners and set-ups, per se; rather, it's the kind of humor we all experience in our daily work places and homes. Funny things happen. People say funny, witty, pithy things. That's what makes the show special for me. I think a number of television shows have managed to capture the essence of human drama or that of human comedy.

None have done both so seamlessly, with such aplomb, as Firefly.

For myself, Buffy and Angel were too farcical. For those who have no problem believing that witches, warlocks, vampires and werewolves really do exist --that these are viable vehicles for exploring the human condition -- BtVS and AtS were probably brilliant entertainment. But I ain't put together that way.

On the other hand, I have no problem with science fiction as that vehicle. I expect the human race will have a future, and that this future will someday include an outward expansion into space, without the luxuries apparent in Star Trek: universal prosperity, equality and uniform mental hygiene. ...For those paying attention to "Serenity", Joss even casts such Utopian dreams in a bad light; uniformity can equate to infringement and control, in the wrong hands.

So, a science fiction entertainment filled with realistic human drama, interactions and workaday humor, set in a future as comparable to our own society as we are to the pioneers of the mid- to late-1800's, is a perfect example of what literature should be: a study of the human condition that we can relate to, draw strength from, and learn from.

I feel my life has been enriched and validated by Firefly. It shows us what we share in common as human beings, and shows us that we are all worthy of admiration, even though we are different, even though we are not 'uniform'. We may not live in a Utopia -- the human species may never live in one -- but we are still special, because of our hearts and minds, and our courage in the face of our everyday "Out of Gas" struggles to merely survive. For making me believe that I am not alone in feeling that way, I thank Joss and his kindred spirits at Mutant Enemy, even though Buffy and Angel have never spoken to me in such a deep and meaningful way...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Interesting screen name, btw. Please, never tell us how you came up with it.
_________________________________________________

WASH
"...That sounds like something out of science fiction!"

ZOE
"You live in a spaceship, dear."

WASH
"So?"
from Firefly, "Objects In Space"

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:09 PM

AGATSU

Well, it's easy to call someone your "master" when your most basic views on life are dead on with the ones your "master" is trying to comunicate and promote.
If you were on a plane going down with Joss and only one parachute, he'd insist you take it (and I'd probably have to put it on him by force and push him out. I could take him.

) Lucas would snatch the 'chute out of your hands because he thinks he's much more important than you, and probably try to sell you the crates of SW merchandise that are on the plane before he jumps.

"Master" in this case is used to express the utmost respect for Joss, NOT blind deference.
I guess in the case of the Star Wars Fans, it's also because of the frustration for how Lucas mucked up their beloved universe, while Joss is "keeping it real", apart from being a much more sympathetic human being.
Like it says on the text next to the shirt over at www.thinkgeek.com,

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, three films captured the imagination and obsession of an entire generation. But the holy trilogy has fallen like the old republic and George Lucas no longer holds power over us. But there is a new hope. A new world and set of characters as real and alive as those we remember from our childhood. We have a new target for our obsession. We have a new master now...

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/pvp/77da/

The Serenity Summer Campaign is on, baby - prepare to kick some serious pigu!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=21775#326341
September 30th is Serenity 'Versary! Be there or be a purple-belted poop-head. (<- not the official slogan.)
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:30 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wow Zoid, I had no idea that he wrote for Rosanne. That would make sense though... the really odd characters that might fight each other constantly but will rip off somebody's head if they attack one of their own. I love dysfunctionality when it's not self distructive. Say what you want about bad about Rosanne's family, but no matter how dysfunctional they might have been, they had ties that bound them more than any in my family who for the most part can't stand to be around each other. It was a modern day Brady Bunch for a generation of cynics. Fond memories.....

I think you hit something about the unrelatability of Buffy and Angel though. I think that by the time those shows came out I was already in college and a bit more immersed in the "real" world then my younger brothers were. I used to be a huge SiFi fan when I was a kid, but now most of it bores me. There are some great tales out there and Firefly is one of the best (probably my favorite though because I've always said that I wanted to build a rocket and start a tobacco and weed farm on the moon where our real life "Alliance" can't bother me anymore). Anything by Phillip K. Dick that they've turned into a movie is great because it's so scary how so many of his fantastical predictions have come true already via technology. (ie: Total Recall, Paycheck, Minority Report, Imposter) If you've never read anything from him, you're really missing out.

I've never enjoyed Star Trek much, but I kind of like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. In my opinion it has some of the most human characters of any of the shows, particularly the settlers on smaller planets and moons. It always pissed me off to see how clean everybody in the Federation was with their fancy pants and we're all equal attitude. The sad truth is, we are not all born equal. There are some of us that excell at some things and some that excell at others. There are some of us who excell at many things and there are some who excell, sadly, at nothing. To believe any other way is simply counteractive to Darwins theory of survival of the fittest.

That's another great thing about Firefly is that it's basically a big Fuck You to Utopia. Utopia is boring... Utopia is predictable... Utopia is mindless prison. Utopia is never questioning what you're told. The price for free thinking in Utopia is to be cast out of Eden.

In Utopia, there is no need for family. The government will provide for everyone and decide just how it is to provide for them. Why would anyone need a tight-knit alliance with anyone friend or family if everything is provided for you and you never need anything? I think we've already had a strong dose of that in America and that's why divorce rate is continually on the rise and so many kids are growing up on mind-altering drugs, prescribed from the "legitimate pushers" and provided by the Drug Czars such a Pfizer, just so they don't act on their impulses and kill themselves or anybody around them.

Free thought in this world is a dying notion, and it saddens me that I will never be alive myself long enough to get off this rock and see what else is out there. Hopefully we can get Firefly to start back up again and I can keep dreaming about the verse out there.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:36 PM

AGATSU

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

I've never enjoyed Star Trek much, but I kind of like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. In my opinion it has some of the most human characters of any of the shows, particularly the settlers on smaller planets and moons. It always pissed me off to see how clean everybody in the Federation was with their fancy pants and we're all equal attitude.

When I watched the pilot to Star Trek: Voyager, I was really excited that this time around, there were some rebellious, no-stick-up-their-pigus characters on board the ship, and thought that the tension between the Feds and them were gonna be really interesting, them having to get along and all.
Of course, the pilot ended with everyone in uniform and a stick up their pigu, well, la-dee-daa, never seen THAT before.
So Firefly made me go "WOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOO!".

Btw, you like the Kottonmouth Kings, don't you? If not, you should check them out.

The Serenity Summer Campaign is on, baby - prepare to kick some serious pigu!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=21775#326341
September 30th is Serenity 'Versary! Be there or be a purple-belted poop-head. (<- not the official slogan.)
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thanks for clearing up the shirt thing Agatsu and Nosadseven. I figured as much since the shirts looked like a play on Star Wars. I just would never wear a shirt that had a screenwriters name on it for the same reason that I never wear a shirt with a name on it or one with brand names in big bold letters (ie: Nike shit). No matter how clever it is.

But I'm sure that there's shit that I do that would annoy the hell out of anyone who would wear that shirt too so to each his/her own.

And as for this:

Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:
You are right, however, that there are folks who consider Joss as infallable, but that's hardly "being manipulated by a larger entity that is trying to meddle and micromanage your life". :)

I guess I wasn't very clear about what I meant now that I read it. I didn't mean to say that Joss was some mastermind that is trying to meddle and micromanage anybodie's life. I meant that I think that Joss would be against that practice from any entity, weather it be government or a cult or a TV or radio personality, or religion or anything else that would threaten to take your originality and individuality away. I just find it comical that people would go around wearing shirts that say Joss is my Master, even in jest, when I don't think that he would appreciate it in the least.

Like I said before... just my opinion. I could be completely wrong and Joss might be laughing at the sheeple from up high all the way to the bank.

P.S. Sorry in advance if I mess up the quote. I've never done it before.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 5:35 AM

ZOID

6ixStringJack wrote:

Quote:
...The sad truth is, we are not all born equal. There are some of us that excell at some things and some that excell at others. There are some of us who excell at many things and there are some who excell, sadly, at nothing. To believe any other way is simply counteractive to Darwins theory of survival of the fittest...

Look, I can see where you visualize yourself as some kind of a 'rebel without a cause', a cynic, a dogged realist. The problem with your statement quoted above is that it is the product of brainwashed thinking.

You're not talking about equality, you're talking about the value our society assigns to people. It's a means by which to categorize, to pigeonhole human beings in a systematic way that makes them easily identifiable by class, replacement cogs for The Big Machine. In this way, whenever a specialist (strictly by way of example) retires or experiences a 'catastrophic failure' and needs to be replaced, those who tend The Machine simply go to the human warehouse, grab another one off the shelf, and plug them into the empty socket.

Give the old fella a gold watch or a straight jacket, perform whatever adjustments are necessary on the 'replacement part', and The Machine keeps ticking along. Try reading some Upton Sinclair. Yeah, he was a socialist (and held other unenlightened views), but hell, he didn't know any better. And he did at least get a glimpse of part of The Machine and then told us about it.

Point is, we're all part of The Big Machine, and I'm not advocating raging against it. Not only The Rich depend upon its smooth running in order to survive. What I am raging against is the mindset that our value to The Machine is the ultimate measure of our humanity. 'I do well on aptitude and IQ tests, therefore I am better than the average person; they are not equal to me', is diseased thinking, Machine-washed thinking.

No, I tend to think along the same lines as our Founding Fathers that "all men are created equal", only expanded to include all human beings, regardless their race, sex, creed, or value to The Big Machine...

Mechanistically,

zoid

P.S.
You've heard variations on the expression 'round pegs and square holes', right? Well, I'm kind of an adjustable peg that can fit just about any size and shape hole. But that ability does not define me as a human being. What defines me -- and you, and all of the people in the world -- as a human being is the content of my character: my capacity to give and receive love, my ability to spread that love to others, and to help others find their own peace and enlightenment. We all have that responsibility.

P.P.S.
Just out of curiousity, since it's a favorite dream of yours: How do you plan on distributing your Moon-grown crops to your prospective customers? Are they all gonna live on the Moon, too? What goods and services will they have to specialize in, to barter for your crops, so that everyone can have food, shelter and clothes (or were you planning on wearing hempen clothing and eating tobacco steaks and marijuana soup every day for b'fast, dinner and supper)? What if the person(s) you need to keep things tidied up in your Utopian Selenia (because there's still gonna be waste products that need to be processed) disagree with being assigned the shit detail? Are you gonna force 'em to do it? What if they decide they can grow marijuana and tobacco more efficiently than you, and that you should be the one mucking out the communal outhouse? Maybe you could whip up some aptitude and IQ tests to convince them that shit detail is all they're worth in your society...

The Big Machine will follow you to the Moon. You will either embrace it -- possibly going so far as to become 'The Alliance' yourself -- or soon find yourself pushing out to the asteroid belt, where you'll plant Its seeds all over again. This is what drove the European colonization of the "New World", and later the Western expansion of the US to the Pacific Ocean. (NB: Y'all are catching the parallels to Firefly, here, aren't you?) Just don't fall into the mental trap of equating a person's value to The Machine with that person's "equality" as a human being.

It's like a heavyweight prize fight between Physical and Spiritual Reality, out there in the 'real world'. Protect your soul at all times, man...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 5:44 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Anything by Phillip K. Dick that they've turned into a movie is great because it's so scary how so many of his fantastical predictions have come true already via technology.

Sometimes in ways nobody quite intended:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=7&t=17857

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:00 PM

AERIN

A little off the subject, but just a comment for those of you who didn't watch Buffy perhaps because it starts out in high school. Yeah, I had the same problem. I saw a few episodes here and there while in college, but the whole high school mentality annoyed me. "Oh, he's the love of my life and we can never me togther! My life is over at 16!" Despite the clever dialogue and deeper messages I had a hard time getting past the "highschool is hell" theme.

You could try skipping past it. By the fourth season they're out of high school. Once you get into the fifth and six seasons they deal with much more realistic problems, like death in the family, money issues, using people for sex, etc. The sixth season is REALLY dark, and really good. If nothing else, I would suggest interested individuals at least view "Hush" from season 4 and "The Body" from season five.

My two cents.

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Nice post Zoid.

I respect your opinion that my ways of thinking are brainwashed. Who am I to say that they aren't... We've all been force-fed so much shit in our short lifetimes that it takes the rest of our years try to unlearn all the bullshit, if we so choose to. Being that we are all human and equal, that also means that we are all equally stupid as we are smart and what may be right to one person might be wrong for another... this being the means to a person's character.

The value that society puts on us is a very interesting arguement. Every day they're finding new and clever ways to characterize, profile and pigeon hole all of us... many of them having nothing and everything to do with race, sex, religion, mental aptitude and the like.

In this age, it would be so easy to study so many different angles of a person like age, sex, color, religion, income, spending habits, and how far you leave home and how often are studied on a scale so large, that it could be called the biggest social experement the world has ever known. Based on these and other demographics, big companies decide who they're going to market to and the cops catch all the bad guys. There may also be uses for this technology far more sinister, and recent revelations that the phone company has been spying on us just serve to illustrate this belief.

The internet, GPS & Satellite technology and electronic funds transfers are the biggest contributors to the recent proliferation of this data collection. Any purchase you make, other than those made with cash is catalogued somewhere, and who knows how long and if anybody is looking? Wireless devices which allow for cashless road tolls not only provide the taxpayers with the convenience of not having to carry change coupled with the speed with which you pass the open road tolls also provide with the ability for the Machine to cut down on human labor costs and simply mail tickets to speeders based on the toll locations and the time spent driving between them... not to mention the ability for anyone looking to find out your general whereabouts based on the record of the transaction. For most people with nothing to hide and nothing notably valuable to lose, this data collection doesn't seem to matter and some even welcome such privacy squashing practices as a means to a safer society. Our forefathers warned us about this. The real problem comes from what I said before about not really wanting or needing for anything. Sure, we all wish we had that perfect body or perfect relationship... but generally as a people, we are not hungry. We don't go to sleep in the rain or snow. We don't chop down our walls in our own homes to burn for just a few hours of heat. We have wanted for nothing for so long that we forgot how to stand up to oppression. This oppression, meddling, and manipulation of the people happens just a little bit more every day and it's always accompanied with rhetoric about "public safety" and "for the children" meant to confuse the people and allow unconstitutional laws to be created and enforced in order to ensure public safety and a better world for our children. My favorite example of this is my memory of Crime Dog McGruff and the police coming to my school and collecting all of the kids fingerprints and telling the parents that it would be a very valuable tool for finding their children if they ever got kidnapped. To this day, I still have yet to hear a single story on the news about a child being found because of their fingerprints after a kidnapping. Having never caused a crime in my life, they've had my fingerprints in a database next to my SS# for the last 18 or so years. They're doing the same thing in Mexico now, but instead of fingerprints, they're inserting chips in the child's skin, much like the way they tag dogs and cats now as a mandatory law in Illinois.

There are, of course, exceptions to this as with any rule. Not everybody here is wanting for nothing. There are a sizable amount of homless people in this country. Many of them have been lost for so long that they don't even really know their own name anymore and have spent the better part of their life drunk or high or peddling and finding other ways to get the next fix or a scrap of food. Though this is sad, these people do not matter to the machine and are only recognized or aided when it behooves a politician and their never ending quest for the votes. This philantropy seems to be going on all the time if you watch the news. We're always helping out somebody either domestically or overseas, but when the cameras are gone, the money usually dissappears shortly afterwars.

The point to all of this, is that we are systematically catelogued and can be cross-referenced by an almost infinite amount of categories in the central database. The Machine cannot run without this knowledge and it continually seeks to gain more. I'm assuming that you knew all of this and that we can at least agree on most of that up until this point.

Brainwashed or not, I do not believe that we are all created equal. This statement has nothing to do with social class, income, religion, and certainly nothing at all to do with race. It is an undeniable fact that some of us are born more or less gifted than others are. Technology is making it much easier for stupid people to do what it used to take an intelligent, trained professional to do. Maybe one day intelligence won't mean anything anymore and there will be one less thing making us all unequal. There's a great sience fiction short story written in 1950 by C. M. Kornbluth called "The Little Black Bag" that talks about a brilliant man who washes dishes for his idiot doctor and their friends. Their little black medical kits take virtually all the work out of medicinal practices and other, high paying, high profile jobs which ensure the mate of chioce and, in the end, who breeds and who doesn't. In this story, the human race is continually devolving because of the lack of intelligence in the primary gene pool. I tend to think that this is very much parallel to the world we're living in today and starts in school where the smart kids get picked on or just can't seem to relate to the other kids.

You cannot deny that some people are less attractive, less intelligent and less graceful and some are even walking vegetables or missing arms and limbs. These peope have a choice. They can wallow in their own self pity and pop their pills or collect a government check, or they can find whatever it is inside them that makes them special and use that to rise above these inequities. My brother had a brain hemmorage when he was six years old from which he was never supposed to walk or talk again. Today he has a degree in photography, can speak just like you and me and he's able to walk just fine. He has some serious vision issues which he has learned to cope with and he needs to read something several times or very slowly to comprehend it, but he is by no means stupid. If he weren't to have worked as hard as he did, he would probably come off as an idiot and would have easily detectable problems with his motor skills. He could go on Social Security, but he chooses not to. We are not created equal. Our inequities simply give us a chance to prove our character to ourselves and others around us, or serve show that we are a burden and that there really is no purpose for our existance. If somebody is going to sit in their own pity pot and collect government checks on my dime, please do not expect me to show the least bit of sympathy for them, because they simply will not get it. I was just at a concert the other day and there was this guy outside that was probably my age playing guitar and harmonica. Maybe it was the beer and the great show (Pearl Jam & Tom Petty), but I gave that guy 10 bucks and told him to keep rockin'. I hope one day that I have the ability and the guts to get onstage and preform and I give that guy a lot of credit for going out there and doing it. He would probably have had a hard time getting a good office job though, he was unkempt and didn't look as though he belonged in an office workplace. This is his choice, and as long as he goes out and performs and makes what he needs to get through the day without a government check, he has every damn right to live life that way.

The opinion that "We are all created equal" is brainwashing and has been taken out of its original context. We are all created equal, as our forefathers meant it, means that we all have a vote and a say in how our government is run no matter our sex, race, etc. "We are all created equal" is not a reference to our abilities and how we use them in any way. I see nothing wrong in knowing that you have advantages over those around you. It is diseased, brainwashed thinking to not take advantage of your natural abilities. How you chose to use them or waste them determine character. If you're going to deny your natural abilities and strenghts or you are going to use them to do others harm, then you are lacking in character. If you use them to help other people, friends, family, then that speaks volumes of your character.

There is another short story on my Myspace account blog (not a very impressive blog as I really don't have an audience) by Kurt Vonnegut called Harrison Burgeron you may have read about a world where the government enforced equality. It's only about 10 pages long, and if you haven't read it yet it is definately an enjoyable read. myspace.com/5ixstringjack. I have never read Upton Sinclaire, but it sounds interesting. I will have to check it out.

Reading your P.S. makes me even think that you and I agree even more than you think on all of this. It is our responsibility to take care of those around us and it is one of the reasons that Firefly is so great. I've never seen a show that made so many good points and teaches so many lessons on so many levels in the guise of enthralling entertainment. Is there such a thing as good brainwashing?

It's nice that you're versatile. I have a hard time changing my situations sometimes and I tend to find a comfort zone wherever I go instead of constantly pushing myself to be even better... which admittedly, is a product of brainwashed thinking.

Your PPS was great. I haven't laughed like that for a while. I guess I never really planned my dream to colonize the moon out all that much. I think I always planned on doing it alone. I guess I was just going to shit on the dark side of the moon and hope that the smell didn't linger over to my moon house. But you're right... the Machine would be soon to follow and like Mal said, my sky would be getting smaller every year.

Thanks for the post. It was an enjoyable read. Hope to hear from you soon.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 7:16 PM

NANITE1018

Ah, but your wrong Jack. In a sense. You see i agree that everyone isn't equal in every way, or even in some ways. But to act on that information is far too dangerous. It leads to hatred, bigotry, and evil in general. By treating everyone mostly equally, we help prevent this. Obviously some are smarter than others, stronger than others, etc. But that doesn't mean that we should treat the smarter, stronger people better than the not as smart or strong.

Also, who said that we should treat everyone equally as in Harrison Burgeron? They were mind-boggling bungling idiots. You don't use technology to bring people down, to hurt them and make smart people dumb and strong people weak. You use technology and science and medicine to make people better (those who choose to do so of course, we all know what happens when people try to make people better by force *Miranda, cough cough, Reavers, cough cough*. But if a blind person wants to see, or a physically handicapped person wants to use technology to fix the problem, then we should do so. And if there is ever a way to make people more intelligent, or stronger, or healthier, then if they choose to do so it should be available. But these kinds of things must be available equally, and not just available to the super-rich.

You don't make people equal through hatchet, axe, and saw (a little Rush reference in case you thought it was familiar, which it's weird that a fifteen year-old would do that, but i heard a couple songs and i like the Trees, and i'm rambling...) you make them equal by fixing the problems, by expanding their abilities. We can all, if we choose, become less hindered by whatever constrains us.

But i digress. To treat people unequally just because they are in a strict sense unequal is too dangerous. That leads to Hitler and Stalin, bin Laden and the Crusades. We must treat everyone roughly equally (not totally, i'm not an idiot) and where people are unequal, try to fix the handicaps and constraints that hold us all, some of us more than others, back.

I aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 2:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I'm not certain that you understood my previous posts at all. Unfortunately, the Machine uses all all of the information they have on people to market things to them and to spread different information and influences to groups based on profiling. I am in no way an advocate of these practices... I loathe them. I loathe the fact that there are voter lists that politicians and wanna-be politicians can purchase for thousands of dollars which will tell them your name, your age, where you live and how often you've voted republican, democrat and independant and then decide, based on the likelyhood that you'd even vote for thieir party, if you're worth the printing, mailing and labor costs. The cost for a list of voting habits of a targeted 25,000 homes would be a small fraction of the cost of actually sending the piece out to 10,000 people who are almost guaranteed to pitch the mailing when it arrives at their house. I was taught in school that our vote is our business and that it is private.

Why do John Kerry and Al Gore behind them get to talk for an hour on MTV's Choose or Lose and Bush wasn't invited either time? MTV isn't trying to get the young Republican vote. I'm not saying Bush should have gotten equal oppurtunity. I'm just trying to illustrate the nature of the Machine. People on an individual level can be brilliant and spontaneous, but as a whole people are largely predictable based, sadly, on stereotypes. We're reminded constantly not to stereotype others while we're all being categorized based on our actions every day. On a grand scale, it is happening. I'm not the one you should be talking to about it if you're not a fan of the practice.

Every day the machine prints out half a billion new US notes. That's the only way it would be feesible to take on the human rights programs and wars that we've seen in the last 80 years. Unfortunatley, every time currency doubles, as it has many times over since 1913, its just like owning stock in a company that splits the stock and sells half of your split to somebody else. The people who had money twenty years ago, excluding the elite who will never be poor due to the ability of their money to constantly make more money, have to share all of their money via taxes and Government programs, usually against their will. There is no accountability for what happens with this money after it is collected. Hitler and Stalin are scary concepts indeed, and we opened the door for a figure like that to come into place when the Congress gave up the ability to coin currency and gave it to the FED. Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto laid out a plan to sell a heavy graduated income tax and the creation of a central bank to the people in such a way that they would welcome them with the promise of economic stability. Before they passed the 16th ammendment to the constitution in 1913, it was constitutionally illegal to tax income in the US... this being the very same year that the Federal Reserve was created. Shortly after the Communist Manifesto was written, Communist leader Vladimir Lenin seized the Russian Government in a bloody revolution. He then created a central bank in Russia and intentionally printed so much currency that the money that people had already saved became worthless. The inflation from this money printing is estimated to have raised the general index of prices to around 16,000 times what they were in 1913. The end result was that the middle class in Russia was eliminated. These people were now 100% dependant on the government for work, food, shelter and any meager material possessions they may have acquired. The central bank printing money is in essence counterfitting, but when a government decides to do it it of course becmes legal. It's said today that the average american will work 7 months out of the year to pay taxes.

I'm sure even in Communist Russia there were Malcom and Jayne types and a thriving underground for those to have the nuts to live outside of the structured lives the Russian People were forced to live in.

When I say that we as people should embrace what gives us an advantage I mean just that. I'm not talking about things on a grand scale. Unfortunately, unless there is a colossal power shift on this planet, we don't have any influence over what they do on a grand scale. They will always get a majority of the people to agree with their choices via affirmations of "economic stability", or "preemtive strike", "in the name of national security", "in the name of equality" and "for our children's futures".

Mal understood that there was nothing that he could do about this, so he just continued to live his life the way that he saw fit with as little exposure to the Alliance as he could. There are even several times during the show where you could almost tell that Mal knew that in all likelyhood, he would be unable to keep his way of life as the Allinace continually pressed outwards, probably how many of the biggest Mob bosses in the real world have felt before getting busted the last quarter century. This is why the fact that he tried to rise against the Alliance in Serenity was such a disappointing turn for me. It took a perfect Hollywood scenario to get him to rise against the Alliance again. Any one of a billion different situations could have happened in the movie and Mal would have chosen to turn his back on it and say "Ain't my worry."

Mal is a good man. Mal is a smart man. Mal is gifted in many areas, and takes full advantage of all of them. A born leader, and he is the captain of Serenity. In your "equal" world, Jayne might as well Captain the ship while Kaylee administers the dope and bandages up the wounds. Most people are good people. They just need good leaders... grass roots leaders. People they know in their communities. The only way to truly change the way Government is run is from the bottom up otherwise it tends to run you. I think Malcom knew this, and if he was ever going to plan a revolution against the Alliance, he would have used his natural talent to be an Ambassador of sorts among the Independants and sympathizers to amass an army that just might be large enough to end the tyrany. I'm sure the Mirandinians aren't the only members of the Alliance that have reason to be pissed off.

I'm not trying to start a revolution. I'm not an anarchist, and I believe in a government for the people, by the people. I also happen to enjoy running water, electricity and having somebody there to take out my garbage. If you're in an advantageous position to help yourself or those around you and you chose to do nothing, then you are actively downplaying your abilities and possibly depriving yourself of greatness all for the sake of equality. There are a lot of lost souls out there that need direction and help. If you want to help these people, they need to be helped by your actions, not with government programs, funded by your labor, which claim to be about equality but are really communistic ideas in disguise.

The mentally handicapped children at my highschool all got marks of C or higher and were awarded high school diplomas which were no different from the one that I had to work to get. This point was brought up to me by my English teacher and she was angry about it. Back then I thought like you did and I was kind of mad at her for saying something that seemed so insensitive, but she had a point. I'm not trying to be an insensitive asshole here, but I need to be blunt to make the point: How much can that piece of paper, signifying 12 years of public schooling really be worth when Corky next to me is chewing on and drooling all over his? All this says is that after 12 years of school, I am just as qualified for a job as the mentally handicapped child which is an absurd notion.

I hope this point isn't lost on some people. I'm sure I'm about to get some hate mail now.

BTW... technology, such as gene therapy, which would enhance physical and mental attributes would most assuredly be available only to the upper eschelon in any Capitalistic or Communistic world. Nothing we can do about that. That's just the way it is. Could you even afford Botox if you wanted it? If they figure out how to do it in our lifetimes, you will be witness to the most flagrant, and at the same time altogether unarguable racism the world has ever known.

PPS... Sorry, didn't get the Rush reference about the 15 year old kid. I'm 26 yrs old and though I like some Rush tuneage, I lived a pretty sheltered childhood and I didn't know much about anything that bands were doing when I was growing up or before.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 5:34 AM

NANITE1018

I agree that people should be rewarded, and that the better you do the better you should be rewarded. So i agree that if someone gets straight A's and works really hard and then someone who is mentally handicapped and just automatically gets C's, then the person who got straight A's should get another kind of Diploma. That's what they do at my school. There is a technical diploma which is for everyone who isn't all that smart, and a CP diploma for everyone else. ANd then there's something like "with distinction" which can be added on to either which shows you did really really well.

I disagree entirely that you cannot change things, that somehow the Big Machine as you call it is somehow invincible. We have it in our power to transform the world, to change everything, and cast aside the irrationality, the bigotry, racism, classism, sexism, and every other form of prejudice, to wipe away many of the evils of our world. The Big Machine isn't all-powerful, for it is made of people. And those people can be changed, they can be persuaded, they are not totally loyal to the Big Machine. And so the Big Machine can be destroyed and replaced with something new, and better world. Not trying to sound like the Operative, he was insane. But you can create a better world if you try.

Okay, and i think you are misunderstanding my point here. When you said that Jayne might as well be Captain and Kaylee the Doctor, that's not what i'm talking about. Whatever you're best at, whatever you enjoy doing that is what you should do as your job. I realise that if we simply took away all limitations there wouldn't be anything anyone is better than anyone else at, but that's not what i mean. I mean if someone is retarded, or paralysed, or blind, or deaf than we should get rid of that, we should fix it, give them back what they never had or what they once had. Obviously if your not good at fixing things you shouldn't be the mechanic. There will always be disparity between natural talents and abilities between people. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. Just that if someone is handicapped by some physical problem then that should be fixed to give them an equal opportunity for advancement.

Equality is not the most important thing in the world to me. Freedom and rationality are equally important. Scientific advance is important. Peace is important. When i say we must treat everyone equally i mean that you shouldn't treat someone who is black or female or Jewish any different than anybody else of any other race. No prejudice is my main point. Fairness when people are up for advancement. The best qualified person for the job should get the job. The best worker should get the promotion. That's all i am asking for.

And as to the whole thing about how these advances won't be available to anyone but the super-rich. I don't think so. At first, for a couple years. But companies will make far more money if they can bring the price down by a factor of 500 and sell to 2000 times as many people. And that is precisely what will happen very quickly. And if the rich try to seize power to ensure that only they have the advances, the rest of us can and most likely will rise up against them. Maybe that'll be the day when the Big Machine is finally destroyed.

I am not some revolutionary or a communist. I simply want a world where people are as free as possible, treat others equally without prejudice and where advancement is based on merit not likeability. And if the Big Machine stands in the way, well then the Big Machine needs to go away. And i will try my best to bring about a better world. Although killing people isn't going to be part of it, not if i can help it. Simply a peaceful shift to a better world.

I aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:06 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I agree. People should be rewarded for hard work and dedication. Unfortunately, in the real world, in a battle of what you know over who you know, the who wins 9 times out of 10. Not to mention the fact that we replaced racist hiring practices in the workplace with an equally racist hiring practice of "affirmative action". The pendulum swinging the other way. Don't get me wrong. Like I said before, I'm all about equality and a fair shot for all jobs and schools no matter your race or religion, ect..., but laws like this dictate which race will get what percentage of the jobs. Now that there are laws governing hiring practices, it has just become one more big way for the Machine to meddle and lawyers and courts to make more money. It sounds benevolent in its intentions, but it only leads to further strife between races by being threatening and building more resentment. Bottom line is that it just doesn't work anymore, it probably isn't even necessary anymore and should be added to the long list of laws which have served their purpose and should be repealed.

It is nice that they gave you a different diploma at your high school though.

I never said it was impossible to change things... just next to impossible. I did mention that if you wanted to change things it would take the biggest grass roots effort this nation has seen in any of our lifetimes. The people would have to take back the government from the lawyers and lobbiest and work their way up. If you're a follower of the Orwellian point of view, this is impossible because you could never organize the Proles. I have a little more faith in mankind, though not much. Things would also have to get much worse before most people get up and do anything. Bitch about gas prices and inflation all you want, but that doesn't mean Firefly fans still won't buy Firefly and Serenity on DVD. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that we aren't very hungry right now, especially comparativley speaking to most of the rest of the world.

There's pleanty of food and circus to distract us from the litigation and legislation that goes on behind closed doors. They've even turned the American courtroom into entertainment that is oftentimes more intersting to watch than a lot of stuff that's on Primetime. Judge Judy, People's Court and thier ilk. Hell... find an American that doesn't at least have some basic knowledge about the Michael Jackson trial or the Lacey Peterson trial. Now for the really hard part... find one tenth that amount of people that know about the "Real ID" act. I'm not going to go into to much details on "Real ID" (just Google "Real ID" to read more), but Bush signed this law into effect in 2005. It was supposed to be implemented in late 2007-early 2008, but now it seems that it may be pushed back a bit. It is a total privacy killer and and end to life as we've lived it here (Think ID card with RFID technology which will one day house medical and criminal records and the open ended possibility that they might add retinal scans and DNA samples... not to mention that you won't be able to drive, leave the country and one day not even be able to purchase food without it. Not that I'm a religious man, but I do believe something pretty similar had been predicted over 2,000 years ago. These new drivers licenses will cost the people and estimated $80-$90 a piece.

Several state politicians have voiced their opinions against and even blocked the passed legislature from taking effect in their state. One such man was Representative Neil Kurk of New Hampshire. I wrote him an email thanking him for his service to the people which he replied with simply "Thank you for your kind words and thoughtful observations". That may have even been his secretary that wrote that email, especially because my vote doesn't matter at all to him since I live in Illinois, but if you want to challenge the machine, you need to show these few men and women still protecting the rights of the people that we are behind them. Representative Kurk is just another example of somebody who is not equal to others, via means of political office and the respect that it brings. He is taking full advantage of his position and telling the people "Hey there everybody. I know that these are rough times and sometimes it seems like the people you elect are serving themselves before they serve you, but there's still a couple of us good guys out here who will stand by our convictions and protect the people. America the beautiful. Don't go giving up on her just yet."

The thing about Mal on Firefly is that he knew he wasn't living a Hollywood movie where one lone gunman can take down a corrupt federation. Then when Serenity came out, he went 360 degrees and did just that... I was disappointed.

Yeah... the medical technology will get cheaper and girls will get boob jobs at the mall like they get earrings today. It probably will happen. Any cosmetic type of surgery will surly be available to the public for a reasonable price as more people use it, just like technology. Just don't go thinking that the type of surgery that promotes longevity will be handed out like candy on Halloween. Nobody really talks about it, but the amount of people in the world increases exponentially and we're at 6.5 Billion now. If this isn't curbed somehow, there truly won't be enough resources to go around. It wouldn't be in any of our best intersts if we all lived to be over 100 years old.

I think we'd probably agree on a lot though. It really does suck, but I think the important thing now is to know about the games that the Machine plays and learn to play them until you, yourself are at an advantage or you can help somebody else who is... all the while protecting your crew. When your time comes I'm sure it won't be nearly as exciting as when Mal released the Reevers on the Alliance, and barring the scenario where we become a dictatorship police state, violence is not the answer and will most likely get you killed or imprisoned for life. It's the little things that matter and eventually can come together one day to be something really big.

That's what Mal taught me. I've been pretty loud about my disapproval of how not just the current Administration has been run, but of the direction we've been going as a people for quite a while. I am young and stupid, kind of like Mal in the war when he was fighting a battle where he was far outnumbered. He got out, bought a ship and said fuck it... you can't take the sky from me! We all need to create our own sky and just cruise and find happiness where we can and try to share that with others close to us and just try to lead by example and live a good life. The truth is, it's not really all that bad now here, but if it ever does get really bad I think you're right. In the end, there is a lot of people who work for the Machine who would not support the Machine.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:31 PM

NANITE1018

Well reading about Real ID, i don't care for it too much. Don't despise it, but don't like it either.

My main point in all of this is that it doesn't have to be that way. Who you know doesn't have to win out against what you know. The world can be better.

The solution to overpopulation is exactly what it was (kind of) in Firefly: space colonization. Yes, i am an enormous space enthusiast. I think our only hope, our only future is an exapansion into space.

I agree also that the only way to bring down the Machine is the largest grassroots campaign the world has ever seen. But i think it is possible. And i also agree that if things get bad enough, if the Machine becomes wasteful enough, destructive enough, and intrusive enough, i think it might just be possible to organise the "proles" as Orwell called us. And just as Winston thought, that day, when the people unite and wake up for the first time in history, we will simply shake off the Machine. We will rise up against the Machine and smash it, crush it, destroy it. We will have done the impossible and as Whedon said "that makes us mighty".

Mal taught me some stuff too. To never give up. Book taught me something else. If you can't do something smart, do something right. And the Operative taught me something else. Remember when he said to Mathius "have you looked at this scan carefully doctor? At his face. It's love, in point of fact... something a good deal more dangerous." I think in the big picture that can be thought of as this: if people love, if people have compassion and believe in their fellow humans, then the Machine will on that day be destroyed. For on that day we will unite, and the Machine cannot and will not win.

Never give up, and do the right thing. The Machine might be really powerful, but we, the people, the proles, the Browncoats, WE are mighty. WE are the ones who can change the world. And the day WE decide that we don't think the Machine is a good thing, that it is evil and destructive and tyrannical, on that day WE will have our victory.

I aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:02 PM

KANEMAN

The Machine knows we are not created equal...Just ask it! It has the data to prove it..Don't think so? Just ask it. Most days It can usually be found foraging for fodder with the ravenous mega media and Pr troops. Every voting season It can be found scavenging with the political tribes, meticulously picking over the carcasses of the brain dead populous who either believe "We are all created equal" or "I am better than you". The only ones remotely shielded by this alliance of personal information hording are those who understand we are not created equal and admit that the machine is correct. Only then are you free to enjoy the spoils of a rich and fruitful life without the guilt the machine would have you feel. Only then can you personally face adversity without blaming or depending on another....You see the machine not only knows who, what, where, and why you are. It can control your feelings and thoughts.... Example,...Can make you think there is a real difference between Democrats and Republicans, when in fact the idea of political parties was created just to feed the machine by separating the masses into two easily prayed upon flocks...

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 9:39 PM

WHITEFALL

I just went looking for this thread, and it twas gone. For the love all things good and philosophical i have to bump this.

Wow.

I. Love. This. Board.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 10:09 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

For myself, Buffy and Angel were too farcical.

Zoid, I love your posts thusfar, you are a spiritual light on this site, and I recommend you write a book on spirituality and the true meaning of life, BUT, you really need to see all seven seasons of Buffy to understand what it's about. I gave up twice on it, and came back for more, and the end justified my meager means.
It's so very Joss, I don't know how you can stand to miss it, metaphorical vamps and demons notwithstanding.

Proselytizing Chrisisall, wondering if he can spell....

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Monday, July 3, 2006 4:18 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
I just went looking for this thread, and it twas gone. For the love all things good and philosophical i have to bump this.

Wow.

I. Love. This. Board.

I'm confused. Could somebody please explain?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, July 3, 2006 4:24 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

6ixString

Can I point out to you the lovely little

emoticon. While words are just words, we try to keep things a least a little child friendly.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 4:57 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Your right, of course. I appreciate that we're in an uncensored environment. That doesn't mean that I should go right ahead and needlessly abuse that privelage.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with swear words we know that are kids are either going to use in the future, currently use, or have other words to describe the noun or verb the original swear represented. (tell your kids to stop saying skeet) I laugh everytime the FCC fines another radio jockey for swearing when the content of the program realistically is much more offensive then the occasional swear word they're getting sued for. I've heard the FCC is trying to enforce a 5 minute delay on all radio stations. It's just my opinion that the FCC has used swear words to legally gain control of the content that the radio stations are and are not able to play. If they had a 5 minute delay on all radio stations, there's a whole lot more then swear words that could be censored.

I used to stay up late on weekends when I was a young teenager to watch Cinemax to catch shows like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Video and Madonna's Truth or Dare and see some skin, but now you can pretty much turn on TV any time of the day and see all the skin you want even on network TV dramas, sitcoms and cop shows. But no matter how warped and perverted the programming that we and our children recieve from the television, I can take solice in the fact that the children never have to hear the word

, or hear somebody say "God" before "Damn" and praise Allah, they will never see the image of Mohammad.

But I do understand that some people just simply do not like this type of language. I will truthfully make an effort to curb the swearing. You know that I'm going to have call you out if I ever catch you swearing now.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, July 3, 2006 5:12 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Can't figure out why I didn't watch it other then the fact that it was on WB. I love vampires, leather and beautiful girls. Maybe that rediculous movie put me off too.

Just a note: a lot of people think that Buffy the TV show is in anyway related to Buffy the movie,
they are not.
Joss wrote the screen play for the movie but it was thrown out: partly by a director who wanted to 'camp' it up, and by Donald Sutherland who should have been handling the exposition but wanted to ad lib his way through all his lines (thus deconstructing all the metaphor and 'sense' behind the plot)

The TV show is entirely Joss' baby and is not at all ridiculous... the fact that Zoid writes it off as 'farce' shows that Zoid had only seen the movie and had judged (misjudged) the TV show on that basis.

I would encourage you to watch the TV show because I think you would find it really has more to do with Campbell's 'Hero's Journey' and other great mythic symbolic tales than any silly teen show you could imagine.

But I'll confess I was also late coming to Buffy, because I had also seen the movie.

And may I throw in here: this is ALSO why we push for Equality Now:
it is true that not everyone is equal, but who gets to decide? Those who want to generalize on the basis of prejudice? Because that has been the 'decider' traditionally.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 5:15 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

No worries. You will catch me swearing, but only with the f

g button!

LOL

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Monday, July 3, 2006 12:50 PM

ZOID

embers wrote, in part:

Quote:
...the fact that Zoid writes it off as 'farce' shows that Zoid had only seen the movie and had judged (misjudged) the TV show on that basis...

First, I didn't say Buffy and Angel were "farce". I said they were "farcical", meaning "resembling farce", according to Websters. Monty Python is farce, because it intends to be. Buffy and Angel are farcical -- to me -- which is exactly how I put it in my first post.

Second, I saw Buffy The Movie and kinda liked it. It was campy and featured Paul Reubens, whom I've liked since the Cheech and Chong movies. The continuing problem is that I don't like Buffy The Series. I have tried watching both it and Angel, and I'm sorry, but it doesn't grab me like it does y'all. And yes, it's mostly to do with the combination of cheerleaders/mallrats, vampires, prosthetics and cheesy special effects. (NB: Sorry, Loni. I really loved y'all's work on Firefly and BSG, though. I think ZOIC got better at their craft, just like Joss did.)

However, unlike those hereabouts who insist that everybody watch and then fall ga-ga in love with Buffy and Angel, I'm not adamant that anybody see things my way. Quite the contrary, I encourage others to watch Buffy and Angel... And then make up their own minds.

If you like it, great. If you love it, fantastic. If you find teenaged cheerleaders, demons and vampires too farcical to be intellectually engaging, well... At least you can know that you're not alone...

Not Apologetically,

zoid

P.S.
My hometown Houston Astros are playing a farcical brand of baseball, right now. I only wish it was a farce...

P.P.S.
Kristy Swanson could kick Calista Flockhart, er, Sarah Michelle Gellar's scrawny little butt... If I'm going to get 'hated' by the Buffy fans, I might as well go for the gold, hmm?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, July 3, 2006 1:10 PM

KANEMAN

Zoid...I am sick of people telling me, because I love Firefly..I'd also like Buffy or Angel, The humor is the same, yet the theme is different. Hey mechanical, same thought different means...Bio...The machine is a Cyclone

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Monday, July 3, 2006 1:53 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
However, unlike those hereabouts who insist that everybody watch and then fall ga-ga in love with Buffy and Angel, I'm not adamant that anybody see things my way. Quite the contrary, I encourage others to watch Buffy and Angel... And then make up their own minds.

P.P.S.
Kristy Swanson could kick Calista Flockhart, er, Sarah Michelle Gellar's scrawny little butt... If I'm going to get 'hated' by the Buffy fans, I might as well go for the gold, hmm?

mea culpa, Zoid!
I never meant that you HAD to like it ...
but I've seen so many people who decided they didn't like Buffy on the basis of the movie, without ever giving the TV show (Joss' show) a try.

The reason I thought so in your case is because IMO Buffy got pretty dark, and the metaphor was always very interesting...so I would personally not use the word 'farcical'

but each to his own...(Including the Swanson vs Geller debate)

The only episode of Buffy or Angel I would ever insist people see is 'Once More With Feeling', and only because that was such an achievement for Joss: writing lyrics and music, every song forwarding the plot, AND suited to the limited range of each actor's voice....
(well, although I wouldn't insist, I would also encourage seeing 'Hush': Joss' silent episode for which he was nominated for an Emmy)

sorry I sounded dictatorial.

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 12:22 AM

ZOID

embers wrote:

Quote:
mea culpa, Zoid!...

I was seriously taken aback by your assertion that I had only ever seen Buffy The Movie, hated it, and never given Buffy The Series a chance.

We're both 'old-timers' here at FFFn, and seem to have agreed on most lines of thought in the past. I honestly admire you 'virtually', and could not fathom how you would come to the conclusion that I would flippantly dismiss any of Joss' work, out of hand. I just don't get excited about TV programs in general, and Buffy and Angel, in specific, don't make me 'tingle'. Firefly, on the other hand, sets my entire being ablaze and is never far from my thoughts. No other entertainment -- TV, movie, music or novel -- has ever moved me so greatly. (Okay, so it only 'edges out' Herbert's novel, "Dune", by a whisker, based on Firefly's continuing captivation of my consciousness.)

...And Swanson outweighs Gellar by a good 30 lbs., has a 3" height advantage, longer reach, thicker wrists and is better 'connected' at the joints in general. No contest.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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