Male and Female Imponderables---Guess What? I Lost Count! by Tristan

Trying not to sound like a smart-ass, there's been no conclusive proof of links between immunisation (which has been practiced since the Victorian era, where as ADD etc has only become an abnormally widespread problem in the last few decades) as far as I know anyway - for every credible study saying yes, theres an eqally credible no.

Its actually really dangerous to not immunise on the chances that it might tip the balance a little, as thousands of parents in this country are now learning - After the MMR jab was linked to autism and seriously sensationalised by the media. Now we are facing a measle epidemic of proportions not seen since the Victorian era - and thousands of children have absolutely no protection against a potentially deadly disease.

I'm not saying that immunisation is totally safe - we're feeding the body a virus, thats got to be doing something, but even the original report that made the link was only saying 'may increase chances...' balance that against '___ pox, rubella and measles will significantly harm, and possibly even kill you' and i'm going to go with the immunisation.

Besides which, i'm firmly convinced that these 'disorders' (and here i'm moostly talking about the hyper kids who are misdiagnosed so the docters can give them drugs and get rid of them) are a symptom of the modern lifestyle - pesticides, growth hormones, additives ingested by the mother even before the child is concieved, then all the bad diets, chemical exposure and over stimulation after they arrive. And sadly, we can control diets, but everything else is out of our immediate hands - we can do something about it, but it will take decades, even centuries to clear the chemical congestion from our soils and water supplies.

Oooooh! soapbox is going away now! I do apologise.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 11:30 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Speaking of quotes Seryn ... is that one about the robot from 'Bones'? I'm trying to remember where I've heard it before!

Desktop Hippie

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 11:32 AM

yep, hodgins says it to Zack(?) I just loved it.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 11:46 AM

Seryn, you appear to misunderstand about the Hoagies link. It's a link to a series of articles that describe Kazimierz Dabrowski's theories on Over-Excitabilities and how that relates to giftedness. Imaginational OE is his description of one of the 5 OEs that he identified and studied. It isn't a report about gifted children. The Hoagies website is a set of resources, really. There is a lot of information there – much more than just the one section on Dabrowski.

If a child were being described, of course that child would be imaginative.

I surmise that you are gifted, too.

As it happens, I work for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). I am a contract specialist, not a public health specialist, but I am surrounded by the information.

I did get my child fully immunized, I just spread it out over a longer period of time. Kids get more than 20 injections now in their first two years. When I was a kid, I think the norm was 8. I'd have to look it up to be sure.

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:00 PM

Oh no, I didn't mean it quite in that way - The study sound like a valuable one, and of the actual theories, it all sounds good. It was simply the use of 'imaginational' and this sudden yen people have developed for simply inventing words (I looked all over, the oxford english, and american dictionarys on the net, its not registered)

Tony the Phony, every time he makes up some knee jerk idiotic policy to screw something or someone up worse than before, can't resist the impuls to start inventing words. It was just a little silly that people feel the need, when the word 'imaginative' is totally correct and appropriate.

(you also caught me at the end of a week where promotional materials for a new museum were written in english I wouldn't accept from a primary school pupil. Its truly appalling, and yet more proof that the people swanning around lording it over us and reckoning they are so great earning three times as much as us for those two hour lunches couldn't find their own arses with both hands and a sherpa.
I mean, this wasn't one persons mess up, through all the processes not to mention a basic proof reading, SOMEONE should have picked up on it. But no one did, the entire bloated, inefficiant, overpaid department is culpable.

I'm not gifted, i'm just a retard with a thesaurus.

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:23 PM

Seryn, my guess is that you *may* be like my daughter: gifted and learning disabled. Her disabilities are on the dyslexia spectrum, but she isn't classically dyslexic. That means she can read well, but she can't spell, has difficulty writing, and has some dyscalculia.

Being "twice exceptional" like that can be especially frustrating. It is for her.

I understand completely how you feel about poorly written documents -- especially promotional materials!

Giftedness and perfectionism often go hand in hand.

For the record, Dabrowski was Polish and was doing his research a few decades ago (he died in 1980 at the age of 78). Jargon is common in psychology and other fields. You should see some of the "Governmentese" that I wind up dealing with!

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:50 PM

oh i can imagine.

yup, dyslexic. huge vocabulary, but only on written,(however I think most of my typo's are down to crappy fingers) I rarely speak how i write, as i have most of my problem with verbal communication. Can't. Sentence. Properly. Dyscalcula and dyspraxia as well. Ask me to do a sum and my mind goes totally blank and i fall over.

I don't know, I was getting all these scores and everything in the tests, but most days I am actually just a total idiot.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:59 PM

It's not possible for you to be a total idiot. You're too wonderfully intelligent and interesting for that. You have a brain glitch that makes a certain aspect of communication difficult for you.

I write better than I speak, but it's because I'm an introvert. There are good aspects and bad aspects to that. I think most everything has an upside and a downside.

My daughter is mildly dyspraxic, too. In June, we had her go through the Davis method of Dyslexia Correction Training, with a trainer who lives in the metro Atlanta area. I won't know for a few months how helpful it was overall. It did seem to have some immediate benefits.

We all have *something* that we have to deal with.

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 1:13 PM

did you hear that a travel sickness medication that they routinely give to astronauts has been used and is apparently brilliant at combating dyspraxia?

Something about dyspraxia bieng linked to the inner ear (which makes sense, as a lot of it has to do with balance) and the tablets going someway to correcting it. But someone (and this is a friand of a friand thing, so its probably wise to ignore it) was telling me that that her cousin had been prescribed it as a trail, and the results were almost instantaneous.

Interesting tidbit anyway. I'm not seriously dyspraxic, plus, they don't do things like corrective training or helping you if its not going to kill you in this country, so i have a fabulous collection of scars, (to which this evening i added another burn!) and a neverending stock of amusing anecdotes about my face hitting concrete in case of a lull in conversation.

See how i'm focusing on the positive?

And it is possible to be a total idiot. my main problem seems to be that i'm completely out of it - I just seem to have this whole other world going on - pick any subject and i'll start endlessly waffling about something that has nothing to do with it at all. I take the road infrequently travelled, march to a different beat and i'm away with the sodding fairies.

I mean I like it, I love the way i don't think like anyone else around me. But the sad truth is it earns me weird looks and makes essay writing a bitch.

Ah well.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 1:26 PM

Now I see what you mean, Seryn! I also tend to live in the world of my own mind and imagination.

I had not heard about any medication being useful to counter dyspraxia. What is it called?

The Dyslexia Correction Training is something that I determinedly pursued on my own. The dyslexic man -- Ron Davis -- who came up with it has written at least two books. One is called "The Gift of Dyslexia."

Here's the Davis Center's website: www.davisdyslexia.com

I see that you use a finely honed sense of humor to help you cope!

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 2:36 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Ok, so the past month or so i've been following this series of threads with some interest but have been quite busy and haven't articulated any views of my own.

And now I'm leaving the site (leaving university and its free internet connection - will pop in and lurk every so often though) so I'll quickly run through my responses to some of the imponderable queries now.

The female figure:

The stick woman with large breasts is by no means the ideal female figure, for me. I don't have much to say against large breasts, mind. If a partner of mine had a very large pair and suffered strain because of them, I'd support her in getting them reduced and probably wouldn't pine their loss unless the new pair was below a C.

Skinny makes me uncomfortable. healthy is best - what I think a man is wired to look for when he looks for a woman to bear his children. Fat is a turn off I'm afraid, but you are nice and plump for a while before you are 'fat'

I'd much rather women err on the side of plump. Watched an interview with a lady from desparate housewives who said about a bedroom scene she did in that show where she didn't eat food for 3 days before it to make sure she would 'look her best'. Then the interviewer congratulated her telling her she 'looked great' in it. This really outraged me.

Make up:

I think it can always make an improvement, if done right. Do it so you still look natural.

Ladder theory:

I reckon you can attach most men to this theory. Myself included, now that I think about it, subject to constraints such as being in a relationship and whether it would jeopardise the friendship. Huh. Anyway, this doesn't mean I don't value my female friends' friendship.

This theory is more of a commentary on women then, right?

The divinity of women (whether they ought to be worshipped):

Not for me. I like them, and see them as superior creatures in some respects (talking about feminine traits I guess, since women can be quite manly and vice versa). Anyway, I agree with seryn that men are simpler, and I think there's a beauty in that. We're very functional right down to how we are physically built. Women are built more with aesthetics in mind - one definite way that they're superior. Emotionally superior too, and beautiful because of it, but also more fragile. Overall, just different.

As for the worshipping thing, I don't see that women are intellectually or morally superior, so don't like the idea of submitting to or revering a partner. The fact that some women turn out like YoSaffBridge is a good reason why women shouldn't be worshipped.

Hmm, that's all I can think of for now, I'm done opining

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:29 PM

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Seryn,
I believe you just described what I feel like on most days. I just never put it into words. I understand very well where you're coming from here. It's not an easy path .
Faeries are nice though, as long as they don't bite.

Bryce
*******************************************

I swallowed a bug.

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:08 PM

STILLFLYIN

On the topic of being in another world: I am quite possibly the most oblivious person in the world if I'm not paying attention. If I am reading or even thinking reasonably hard about something else, I will be completly unaware of anything that is going on around me. Its become quite a joke among my family.

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:18 PM

Quote:
After that little post, Ms. G, gotta say I'm liking Canada a whole lot more.

I hate to pull the discussion back around to this, but I just had to say something. I grew up mostly in the US, but my family did spend a year and a half in Ontario, Canada when I was in middle school. We left 13 years ago, and our family *still* has not recovered from what we experienced there.

My brothers and I were bullied every single day of that year and a half. I've talked with other people who were bullied and had other stressful experiences during elementary and middle school, but I've never heard anything quite as bad as what was done to us.

I have only in the past few years gotten over the minor case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (lost huge chunks of time, would have flashbacks to it when triggered by something, etc.) those years left me with. There are still things, foods particularly, that I must avoid because of the memories associated with them. The first of the three autoimmune diseases that now rule my life started due to the stress there -- Alopecia Areata. Over 50% of my hair fell out, and the school WOULD NOT let me wear any sort of hat to school. Once you have one autoimmune disease you are at much higher risk for others, so I can't help but wonder what my life would be like now if I hadn't gone through this.

I was subjected to sexual harassment from my fellow 6th graders on a daily basis. (Years later, in high school back in the States, a boy was put on warning of expulsion after I complained about what he was saying to me, and it had been much milder, btw.) When I finally hauled off and punched one of the boys in the nose, *I* was the one who was suspended.

The moment that I believe pushed me over the edge into PTSD happened one day on the way home from school. The bus was segregated by grade, so I was not allowed to sit with my two younger brothers. The youngest was in 1st grade at the time, and so sat at the very front of the bus. When the bus stopped at our street, the older brother and I got out, but not my youngest brother. The bus started to pull away, so we waved for it to stop, and I went back on the bus to get my 6 year old brother.

I found him three seats behind the bus driver -- in clear view of her mirror. He had two older boys on top of him. He was blue. They had been covering his nose and mouth for who knows how long. I don't remember shoving the boys off of my brother, but I must have. After I made sure my brother could breathe and talk, I remember looking at the bus driver in the mirror. The look she gave me was pure hate. She didn't move to help the 6 year old child who had almost been suffocated to death right behind her. She didn't say a word to us as we got off.

When my mother called the school and demanded that bus driver be fired, the school refused.

A few months later that same brother was shoved off a playground structure into gravel, so hard that it broke his jaw and imbedded gravel into his chin. The principle and the office staff had him sitting in the front office for three hours before they called my mother.

I know all of my siblings have been shaped by what happened to us there, even the younger three who were too young to remember it. All six of us swear we will never send our children to public school. We have views on school shootings that are probably not the most PC. We are fiercely protective of each other. The youngest of my siblings just finished the 7th grade, and has decided to go back to being home schooled. Can't say I blame him -- and my blood pressure thanks him.

My point in this is not to condemn Canada. Not in the slightest. I have an aunt whom I love dearly who is Canadian, many Canadian friends, and I would have gone to college in Montreal had I not met my husband just before I got the acceptance letter. It would be silly to blame an entire country for the actions of a handful of individuals.

My point is that children can be bullies no matter where in the world you are. Teachers can choose to look the other way no matter where you are. Adults who have chosen to work with children can have prejudices -- whether based on nationality, religion, sexuality, or as was touched on earlier, intelligence -- that they act upon in ways that are harmful to children. Humans aren't perfect, and this could have happened to us anywhere.

I know there is no country, no state, no region where I could live where my (potential, hypothetical) children would be safe from the sorts of things my brothers and I experienced. My only option is to be involved in their lives, to choose carefully whom I allow into their lives (which likely means no public school, I think), and to work with the system to improve it. I know there are other good people out there working for the same thing.

Sorry to derail the conversation.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:33 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Lord and Lady, CK, I don't even know what to say about that. I thought I'd had it pretty bad with teachers looking the other way, but at least if it was serious physical harm they would do something about it; even if I was also punished for retaliating. Emotional, not so much. I don't know if some people just can't reckognize that for what it is or what. I tried to live by the "words can never hurt me" policy, but we all know that's not really true.
I'm impressed that you can be as cheerful as you are, though that is the best way to deal with things like that, it's not at all easy. I commend your family for making the choice to private or home school; my mom pulled me out of certain subjects and home schooled me because I was going batty not being able to actually write as well as I knew I could. Had to leave me in public school part of the time, though, since she's never been a math wizz and there were other required classes she'd never had to take.
Anyway, I digress. I think it's a good decision to do something like that, though I always think that warning teens especially that life is not always easy sunshine and roses would probably be good too. It's hard to strike the balance between too sheltered and traumatized.
Do you do breathing excercises or anything? I'm wondering how someone deals with flashbacks and other such episodes. Also, what are flashbacks like? I've thought I've had them, but could never tell since I tend to have a very vivid memory/imagination anyway. Sorry if I'm prying too much, you don't have to answer.

**********************************

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:56 PM

Hey Rose, thanks for replying. I had just started wishing I hadn't posted all this, heh. I tend to over-share, I think.

It's been about 5 years since I had a flashback, and there wasn't much I could say about them even at the time. It was like there was an area of my mind that was blocked off by big doors, and sometimes they would just open. It's usually smells that do it, but sometimes other things. I would remember things that I couldn't remember the rest of the time, and scream and cry about it, mostly. So my memories of the flashbacks are odd -- I remember what I said and what I did, more or less, during the flashback, but none of what I was thinking.

Most of my work in getting over the PTSD (though I'm not sure you can so much "get over" it as "get to a better place", but whichever) has been in calmly reclaiming those memories from behind the big doors in my mind. For a long time I didn't remember any of the incident on the bus, but I would have nightmares about the bus starting to pull away, my brother being blue in the face, and that look the bus driver gave me. It took a lot of time to get all the pieces back, and because I focused on the memories that would make me so upset during a flashback, there are still little things my siblings will say to me, "Remember when this happened?" and I'll have no memory of it. (We spent an entire month one fall feeding migrating geese, apparently.)

To get through the flashbacks, I would use something to ground myself to the here and now (usually a person, but other things work), and either talk it out or write it out, and allow myself to cry, but not to scream. The biggest thing that helped though was just getting the memories back so they are there all the time, instead of lying in wait.

As far as being cheerful, I think I'm just stubborn, lol. I'm set on being happy, so gorram it, I'm happy! A lot of it has been about letting go of what I can't change -- whether my health or my past experiences -- and getting close enough to people to talk about how I really feel about it. My husband has been wonderful for that, as have my siblings as they've reached adulthood.

The major thing I'm working on now is clamming up vs. over-sharing. I'm trying to find a happy medium, lol. For a long time acquaintances didn't know I was sick. I would decline invitations, make some excuse, whatever, but I just couldn't bear to tell anyone. Last fall I started being upfront about it (good thing too, what with the cane use now), and now I can't quite seem to not wear it on my sleeve. Seems to apply with other things too.

Ah well, we're all learning, right?

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:01 PM

Oh, my, God, CaliforniaKaylee, what a horrible story of abuse! I can well understand that you and your siblings suffered PTSD.

It's awful to be victimized and then be punished on top of that! I'm glad that you got to your little brother in time, but, how terrifying!

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:08 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I think wearing things on your sleeve is better than never talking about them. I'm trying to be even more up front with people in the hopes that I might talk to some people I don't know. I'm trying to be able to just go up to someone and say "You seem very interesting. I'm Rose." Can't get there yet. I will talk endlessly and honestly with someone I know, it's the meeting them that's the issue. Oh well.
I guess I haven't really had flashbacks because I remember everything, though sometimes things will trigger a memory. Scent is supposed to be the sense most connected to memory, but it doesn't seem that way to me. It can be anything. Songs and visuals in particular spark things that I would prefer not to think about. Not that I've forgotten, but that I don't want to think about.
Talking about it seems to help.

**********************************

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:40 AM

CK, you have the makings of a Saint! I was bullied but not nearly as badly as you, I suffered no lasting effect other than some personality deficiencies, yet i stilll get sour about it. To have gone through all those horrid experiences and still be suffering the effects and STILL be so cheerful and spirited! I'm surprised you don't have a bunch of guys in fancy robes and silly hats knocking on your door.

Still, i think that whole Church of Firefly that people joke about has its first candidate for canonisation.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 2:09 AM

PENGUIN

*gives everybody a big healing hug*

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 3:30 AM

A penguin giving hugs, I have to admit thats an intriguing prospect...

I jest, hugs are marvellous, I shall get out of the way!

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 5:26 AM

Morning, all!
Boy, I'm gone a day, and now I have a bit of catching up to do.
I'll hit the education, as that seems to be the hot topic of the moment. Y'all have some horror stories, and my heart hurts that you had to endure what you did.
I am the product of at least half a dozen school systems in Arizona, Texas, France, and Alabama. I cannot complain about the content of my education, as I was able to get through all the lower grades and Masters level of college without any remedial training. My weakness is in mathemtics...I am sorta like Seryn: present me with a math problem, and watch me go into vapor lock. Not pretty.
I had almost always wanted to be a teacher, and decided in 2002 or so to go into the Education program at the University. I already had a Masters degree in History, so I decided that is what I would like to teach. By this point, No Child Left Behind was a major issue, and was causing problems for the administrators in the Education college...class requirements seem to go through changes every semester. The professors had no idea what was going on, and basically stopped really caring; they were just going through the motions when teaching the class, because the curriculum could change at any time. A year and a half into the program, I was frustrated and not wanting to be in an education system that had a problem teaching the educators...I shudder to think what my fellow classmates are currently doing to the US education system.
Now, it's possible that it would have been different at another University, but I was not willing to give it a chance. I am not sure who above me said it, but this system aims at the lowest common denominator and tries to process as many students as they can to keep funding (if they receive it), etc. I am a firm believer in private schools, though I am not always thrilled at their underlying religious base. I substituted at a private school in this area, and the students were happy, well-adjusted, and frighteningly intelligent. They were happy to be there (as happy as a young person is to be anywhere) and were learning, not just having stuff poured into their heads to regurgitate and forget at the next test. So, if I have children, I will not subject them to a public school.

Wow. Sorry, but that's what happens when I am gone for a day!

Glad to see some new screennames and the return of some we haven't seen in awhile!

______________________________________

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
I am a firm believer in private schools, though I am not always thrilled at their underlying religious base. I substituted at a private school in this area, and the students were happy, well-adjusted, and frighteningly intelligent. They were happy to be there (as happy as a young person is to be anywhere) and were learning, not just having stuff poured into their heads to regurgitate and forget at the next test. So, if I have children, I will not subject them to a public school.

Good choice.

There should be no government schools. All schools should be private. Parents could choose what kind of school to send their kids to. If they want religion in their school (though no one should want religion at all), it would be available. If not, that would be available too. The good schools would thrive, the bad ones would go away, and everyone would be better off. No one would be forced (and currently we are forced, quite literally at gunpoint) to pay for inferior performance, or for something they didn't want.

There are precisely three legitimate government functions. Outside those, we need to get government out of our lives in every way possible. Education would be a good start.

--
"That's what a government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:30 AM

I keep reading this, and having real problems with the terminology - as far as i'm aware 'public' schools are for the moneyed - where posh kids go to learn latin and classical history, network for future careers in merchant banks or parliment, and most likely get buggered to within an inch of their lives. I'm not even entirely sure what 'private' schools are - what Tristan said probably hold true over here St. Trininas style boarding schools, with an excellent standard and an overemphasis on the religious angle.
Most kids in this country go to state (i.e. local council run, government controlled) schools, which are the ones being dicked around and screwing up the futures of the bulk of the work force.

The lastest faboo all singing all dancing cure all { /sarcasm ] policy is turning state schools into 'academy's' - like my fathers school is now an academy of performing arts (and its catholic, oh the irony!) which meens that with millions of pounds worth of funding, they just built a theatre and refurbished the drama department, meanwhile non of the kids can bloody add up as the maths department is going to wrack and ruin.
sorry, slight tangent there...

But basically, is that how it is in the states? or is it slightly different?

Yes, maths, its like the little hamster turning the wheel in your head just suddenly give up the fight. Total lockdown, some times theres even tumbleweed.
Its not that Ican't do it, if explained to me i can understand the most complex of mathematical thories - its simply that I can't remember how to understand it - hell, i can't even remember how to do the tricks my dyslexia support tutor taught us that meant i didn't have to remember how to do it. It s almost like my brain goes into lock down for its own protection.
Blah blah blah, yadda yadda blah, oh how I do waffle!

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:39 AM

Seryn, sorry, we are speaking of American schools...private schools are not *really* regulated by State or Federal statutes, and can usually determine their own curriculum as long as "the basics" are covered. Public schools depend on local taxes for the most part, although some State and Federal funding exists. (Please, anyone, correct me is I have the funding part wrong) Public schools must follow rulings and laws across the board.
Does that make sense?

-EDIT-
Seryn, back to the math...I can do slightly complex figurings in my head, or on paper if I need to, in relation to armoring, costuming, etc. My problem comes if someone asks me directly to solve a math problem. If someone asked me to figure out the 15% tip on a dinner costing $63.22, I would freeze.
______________________________________

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:42 AM

yup, so your public schools are the equivelent to our state schools, and our private and publics schools and your private schools are all the same thing (as far as anyone here cares)

cool, got that sorted.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
But basically, is that how it is in the states? or is it slightly different?

Here in the U.S., there are public (government) schools and there are private (non-government) schools. Public schools are, broadly speaking, managed locally, but policy is set at the state and federal level and funding is a mish-mash of tax dollars from all levels, mostly collected locally via property taxes and budgeted by the state, though a bunch of federal dollars (collected via the income tax) come into play (as does the "oversight" - i.e. control - that goes with those dollars).

No one is exempt from paying taxes for the schools, and school attendance is compulsory up to a certain age. Most go to Alliance - oops, I'm sorry, government - wait, no, public - schools, because they can't afford to pay for private schools (which get no government funding). Except for a few recent experiments, no one has a choice about which government school their children are assigned to or how the money they're forced to pay is spent. Though there is less control over private schools, even they must meet government standards and adhere to government regulations.

Our education system is fast becoming as succesful as the Soviets' agricultural system was. The more people continue to expect cradle-to-grave services from the Alliance - gorram it! I mean government! - the worse all those services will continue to get. Next on the list for destruction is probably health care.

This is, IMNSHO, still the best place to live, though increasingly that ain't saying much, about the U.S. and the rest of the world. I hope my kids don't live to see the Dark Ages return.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:47 AM

Piz, dead-on. Thank you. That's what I meant to say

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:50 AM

Government, Alliance, Goliath... its all much of a muchness.

*Apologies for the random Jasper Fforde injoke there - Goliath isn't quite the government, but it may as well be, its a giant corporation that has control over every aspect of life, literally from the cradle to the grave. Infact, thats one of their advertising slogans.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 7:41 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

There is a really great publicly funded, but kind of private, school here in Colorado. It's called the Denver School of the Arts (obviously, it is in Denver) and I don't know how they swung this, but they are funded by the government and yet behave like a private school. Students have to audition to get in, they have high standards, teachers who are generally artists themselves, and even a "major" program meaning that, from sixth grade on, students can pick what they would like to focus on. I had what I thought was a really great friend for awhile who went there, and I really wanted to go but it would have been a three hour drive every morning or something like that. Plus I didn't even find out about it til I was in 8th or 9th grade, which meant I would have been behind on the "major" program to a very extreme extent. Also on the math classes. Did I mention I'm pretty terrible at math, too? I seem to have a similar problem to a couple others here. I can remember a formula for awhile, and sometimes I can keep in my head exactly what it means, but usually not so much. And I really can't do much math at all in my head. And even when I have a calculator I have to have it quiet and then I have to figure out what I'm doing. D.S.A. had very high math standards and I might have crashed and burned since I wasn't in the program from the start. All water under the bridge.
Anyway, I wish there were more schools like that.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 8:54 AM

Just stopping by for a quick second before going out to lunch with the hubby.

Sainthood: Lol! Nope, no saint here. I'm far too feisty for that. Actually, feisty is probably the best way to describe me, and being feisty keeps me cheerful.

Public schools: I haven't done much reading on it, being on the opposite coast and all, but I've heard good things about New York City's magnet school program. From my very limited understanding of it, once kids in the public school system get to high school, they get to choose from all the high schools in NYC. They each have their own focus (drama, math, science, sports, English, the list goes on and on) and many require auditions to get in (either actual auditions as for drama or sports, or test scores for math, etc.)

What I've heard is that that has really turned NYC's school system around. Students having to work hard to get into the high school they want rather than just coasting by until graduation seems to make all the difference. But then, this is coming from *California*Kaylee, so maybe a Browncoat from out that way has a better view of it?

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 9:47 AM

COPILOT

Okay so here it is.................
My coworker came by last night and was totally ummmmmmm hitting on and making out with me. I guess I like her I just cna't handle the girl stuff right now. ARrrgggggg so pretty so wonderious so very very closeted it makes me friking angry! And sad! And happy and arrrggggg! Yep that preety much covers it!

Also that is the only bad Canada story I've ever heard!

An I carried such a torch

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Anyway, I wish there were more schools like that.

If education was out of the gummint's hands there would be lots of schools like that. People would want 'em, so someone would meet that demand.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Public schools: I haven't done much reading on it, being on the opposite coast and all, but I've heard good things about New York City's magnet school program. From my very limited understanding of it, once kids in the public school system get to high school, they get to choose from all the high schools in NYC. They each have their own focus (drama, math, science, sports, English, the list goes on and on) and many require auditions to get in (either actual auditions as for drama or sports, or test scores for math, etc.)

What I've heard is that that has really turned NYC's school system around. Students having to work hard to get into the high school they want rather than just coasting by until graduation seems to make all the difference. But then, this is coming from *California*Kaylee, so maybe a Browncoat from out that way has a better view of it?

It's a (very small) step in the right direction, but they're still gummint schools, so there are still guns pointed at the folks forced to pay for them.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by copilot:
Also that is the only bad Canada story I've ever heard!

Bad Canada! Naughty Canada! What do you have to say for yourself?

I'm sorry, I really can't help it sometimes.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:28 PM

CK: Some of the most vicious people I've ever known were a certain unholy circle I had the displeasure of encountering during my short stay in Ontario and Quebec a few months ago. Although I never witnessed anything as bad as that particular story, I have no doubt the people I speak of would've done the same thing. Complete morons and brutal, they tried to bully me, being the peculiar small-town Albertan. Took care of them separately, and then went back home to the Land of Small Schools and Cornfed Complexion.

What I'm trying to say is, the worst things I've seen and felt in my short life are closely connected to early childhood experience and the people and places I went to in the East.

I'm sorry that some people reading the last few threads will have taken a negative view of Canadians, although some of us (according to some opinions, myself) deserve it entirely.

If you ever need a good example of good Canadians, try my good ole town of Byemoor, Alberta. Look me up if you're there.

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'It's Braedan. With an A.'

'Shiny moments aren't a destination any of us get to, and stay put forever. They're unknowable, brief flashes in time. That's what makes them shiny.' -GorramReevers

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 2:21 PM

Quote:
It's a (very small) step in the right direction, but they're still gummint schools, so there are still guns pointed at the folks forced to pay for them.

Well yeah, I'm not saying it's any better for the tax payers, just possibly better for the kids who attend the schools. Unfortunately, the needs of the tax payers and the needs of the children attending public schools are often diametrically opposed, so you're stuck with someone getting the short end of the stick. Not to say that there aren't solutions that would make everyone happy. As I've gotten older, I've come to support the idea of school vouchers more and more. I think we'll need some form of public education for the foreseeable future -- there will always be some child for whom the local private schools are not a good choice (ie, all the private schools are Christian, and the child is Muslim, etc.), and I think the government should provide an *option* for those children. But I also think that if someone wants to send their child to a specialized private school (religious or not), then they should be able to have their tax dollars go there. I think more people would send their children to private school if we had vouchers, and it would reduce the stress on the public system. I know people say that it would take money away from public schools, but only in proportion to the number of children no longer in the public system. And I think people without school-aged children (ie, my husband and I) should have their tax dollars continue to go to public schools.

Quote:
What I'm trying to say is, the worst things I've seen and felt in my short life are closely connected to early childhood experience and the people and places I went to in the East.

Lol, I think you may be right. I grew up mainly in Oregon, and the joke there was that Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia could form their own nation, and no one living there would notice the difference. I really do think that people growing up in the western US have more in common with people growing up in western Canada than they do with those growing up in the eastern US. I've never met anyone from BC or Alberta I didn't like.

Course, I have a handful of friends in Montreal and New York as well.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 3:36 PM

CaliforniaKaylee, I do have to agree with you that, as time goes on, I find myself supporting the idea of some kind of school voucher system. Even here in Atlanta's exurbs, the amount of tax money spent per child to go to school is over $6000. In the city itself, it's substanitally more. Even if the politicians wanted to make the whole thing more palatable to the voters by making the vouchers be about *half* of what is spent per child at the public school, I'm sure a lot of people would make the most of that amount.

Tristan, I, too, toyed with the idea of becoming a teacher a few years ago but found that, despite my degree plus (unfinished) grad school, they made the barriers too high. Also, that was at a point where my husband's career was severely affected by the dot bomb era, and we had huge medical bills and I just couldn't see taking the lower salary when I discovered that I could make more as a *temp* in my previous career field! I was stunned.

So, I took the temp job, and the rest is history. I would have *loved* being a teacher, though. Except for the bureaucracy. Which is kind of a funny thing to say, since I'm currently a professional red tape wrangler.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:56 PM

JAMESTHEDARK

You know, when I actually looked up dyspraxia, I was kinda surprised how many of its symptoms lined up with me. Now, I have been known to self-diagnose with a tendency for the worse, but how many developmental disorders include social frustration and handedness-confusion (Yes, I constantly mistake left for right, and even if I know exactly how to get to a place, don't ask me to relate it in words)?

Now, I am a product of Canadian public schools. Yes, it is that bad, but I don't know if that's nation wide, or just in this reality impared corner of hell called the Maritimes. Some of the worst memories I have left after repression are of school and school related events. What's worse, most faculty on Prince Edward Island are either barely competant, or so overworked and over stressed that they don't care. I had the misfortune of being in a new teacher's class on the day the poor man finally snapped. It involved --- and I'm not telling a word of a lie here --- a bullhorn and a lot of language I'm sure even tenth graders shouldn't have been subjected to. That's just my experience (I actually found it kind of hilarious, but I sympathize with the poor man).
Moreover, in Atlantic Canada, private schools just aren't an option. On PEI, there's exactly two, and they're both ultra-right wing, ultra-Christian establishments that I still thank my mother for not subjecting me to. But I digress.

Getting back to the imponderables, what about body image? I know I'm not an Adonis, but for the longest time I was depressed about my girth. This coming from a man might sound a touch odd, but it's true. In my mind, I was always fat, and worse, I was always hungry (despite the fact that I never went without food). It took me a very long time to reach a point where I realize that I am not fat. Not thin, but not fat, either. Just kinda in the middle. Anybody else have breakthroughs in body image to share?

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I ain't lookin' for help from on high. That's a damn long wait for a train don't come.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 5:35 PM

JamesTheDark, I'm not surprised to find yet another member of this forum who exhibits signs of being "twice exceptional," i.e., gifted and learning disabled. It seems there is a strong correlation between the two. Also, it is my impression that this is a very intelligent forum, on the whole. I might guess that those who struggled (usually without knowing) with the twin demons of high intelligence or other gifts subsumed by frustrating limitations, those people would especially be drawn to the whole Independence aspect of Firefly.

In my own stubbornness, I am always looking for a way to overcome limitations, regardless of what they are.

Your body image question is excellent, but problematic for me. The societal norms and imperatives in the U.S. relating to body image are toxic, sometimes devastatingly so. But, I was raised by a European mother and an older father. During the Depression, it was a sign of good health and abundance to weigh a little more. So, growing up, I *never* got the message that I had to be thin. As a consequence, I was never overweight. And even though my weight usually fluctuated within about a 10 pound range, I loved my body.

And then came the surgeries. I was devastated the first time my skin integrity was ever breached. I struggled with body image because I was no longer whole. I am resilient, however. Though I am a roadmap of scars, it turns out that, once my husband came to terms with that, it doesn't matter much to me. Against all odds, I still have a whole life, and that matters most.

It sounds to me as though you have finally reached self-acceptance. I applaud that. It's important. And you know what? For the most part, we're all ordinary. We're not Adonis, or Venus, or some airbrushed celeb. Most of the celebrities don't really look like that, either, you know. We're being tortured by images that are artificially created in too many cases.

Even though we're all ordinary, we're also all beautiful. Being real and vibrant and alive is beautiful.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 9:16 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I am of the opinion, trying to say this in the most modest way possible, that I have a perfect body. Not Hollywood perfect, actually perfect. I look, (again, trying to be as modest as possible) like a Goddess. A traditional Goddess. That is to say, I am well-rounded. I have round hips and round breasts and a round belly. I am the image of the child-carrier and the life-giver. There have been times when I've been thinner, and I still had that same round build, I just didn't have sneaky fat under my chin. I wouldn't mind getting rid of that... Anyway, that and the stretch marks I have from my growth spurts are, as far as I'm concerned, the only flaw in my body's appearance. I struggled mildly with body image when I was surrounded by the shallow in certain schools, and when due to whatever it was I wasn't getting asked out by anybody. But I think anyone who doesn't think my body is lush and gorgeous is too brainwashed to bother with anyway. For myself, I'm attracted to women built more like that, with the curves, though I have found the occasional slender women attractive as well. I wish I wish I wish there were more of us.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 11:04 PM

WHITEFALL

Ok, I just read this entire thread, and let me just say...

Wow. You folks are incredible. Just amazing. Of course some of you have, but it seems like everyone on this thread has known each other for years. Just amazing.

Ok, awe aside.... hmmm.... lemme get started. I'm opinionated, at least I think so. Where to start...

Oooh, theater. I love theater. Not as much for the content and the art, just as much for the people. In the last two years i've gotten involved with my high school's theater program, and it has been the most amazing experience of my life (though i guess that'll tell ya something about my life). These people are accepting, they are kind, they are loving, they are fun. And I love them. Ok, i'm a shy bastard, but still, i love them.

And a vast a majority are women (saying girls just sounds rude) and moving on to equality, gender stereotypes just get in the way. I was raised by my mother and two sisters, and I have a great respect for women, and I'll be damned if i'm gonna let my body ruin it for me. (sucks to my teenage wiring.) It's awkward, I'm not interested in dating at all, and i'm glad most of these theater folk understand that. I get along better with women, always have, and this whole chauvanist 'dating' nonsense is annoying. As for me...

Body image, meh, i'm a little on the fat side, I'm aware i'm not muscular, but that's for an obvious reason, i dont exercise, and i'm fine with that. I eat right, gorramit, ever since i started doing the basics of reading nutrition labels (just counting fat grams will work wonders, and peanutbutter is the root of all evil), and never mind diets, all it takes is a little willpower. As for body images for women? i dont care, never have, tho i admit too fat or too skinny is disturbing, though always work-aroundable. Whatever my stupid teenage hormones might think, any woman i'd like in the traditional romantic way would be a great intellectual, and preferably avoid all apparel low cut. I hate modern fashions, and i dont go around baring my manboobs (as we silly teens call them) to everyone, i (the person, not the bundle of hormones in me that the media caters to) dont want to see your female equivalent.

And if that sounded creepy... it really kinda was.

Now, public schools *breathe*.

So, i have nothing but respect for my local (that being bay area) public schools, though i know they are making budget cuts and our theater program is only barely on the list. we get by tho, and we are lucky enough to have a modern theater building to work in... some arrangement with the city, it's a working and renting theater, but the school gets to use it... well, as i may have mentioned, i love theater, and i'm lucky in my public school. (tho i did change across the district for it. what's a little travel time...) I will mention, especially in high school, an issue with a two track education system. i take a lot of AP and honors classes, and i've found myself never having classes with some people in my grade because of it, and this idea of the "smart kids" and the "...not smart kids" is hard to ignore sometimes. It's an issue, but i dont know how to comprare it to CK's, or the public/private. Always had random thoughts of being a teacher for little kids, i love them before they're annoying teens but after they're intelligent, if you know what i mean, but learning more about "No Child Left Unscrewed-Up" (I learned about it originally just because it allowed the military to see my personal info), i dunno lol. Btw, /salute to MSG.

Ok, that's mostly my rambling....

P.S. My theater troupe went to the Californian state thespian festival, and i wore my jayne hat all three days. it was awesome. a lot of flans are into theater. :)

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

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Monday, July 3, 2006 2:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Unfortunately, the needs of the tax payers and the needs of the children attending public schools are often diametrically opposed, so you're stuck with someone getting the short end of the stick.

Need is not the proper criterion, rights are. Parents have the right to educate their children as they see fit, not as the government orders them to. And everyone has the right to decide how their life is to be expended, not how the government orders their life to be expended. The latter is to say that people expend time, energy, skill, knowledge, and talent - i.e. life - and, for the most part, convert that life very literally into money. So when they're ordered by the government to pay for things, they're being ordered to devote that much of their lives to those things. The important word there is ordered - there's no choice. If you don't, men with guns come and take you away, and it's legal for them to do that and, perhaps more importantly, illegal for you to try to stop them. Compare that to the recourse available to any so-called "evil" corporations when you don't want to pay for what they offer. Ads ain't guns.

Quote:
As I've gotten older, I've come to support the idea of school vouchers more and more.

Another tiny step in the right direction, but still government controlled, therefore bad.

Quote:
I think we'll need some form of public education for the foreseeable future

For the foreseeable future, I agree, although I'd change "need some form of public education" to "be stuck with some form of public education." We don't need it.

Quote:
there will always be some child for whom the local private schools are not a good choice (ie, all the private schools are Christian, and the child is Muslim, etc.), and I think the government should provide an *option* for those children.

No, government should not be involved in education. Perhaps this could be done during a transition out of the current system to a fully private one, but in principle government involvement is wrong.

Quote:
But I also think that if someone wants to send their child to a specialized private school (religious or not), then they should be able to have their tax dollars go there. I think more people would send their children to private school if we had vouchers, and it would reduce the stress on the public system. I know people say that it would take money away from public schools, but only in proportion to the number of children no longer in the public system.

Again, perhaps in transition, but that's all.

Quote:
And I think people without school-aged children (ie, my husband and I) should have their tax dollars continue to go to public schools.

No. No one should be forced to pay for this. Remember, under a fully private system you could voluntarily donate any amount you wished to any educational institution, so if you wanted to continue to fund education for people other than your own children you'd certainly be able to do so, and I have no doubt that many, many people would. But many would not, either because they can't afford to or they have other causes they'd rather fund, and those people should not be forced to pay for education.

(And, because I know someone is thinking this, it's the contributions of those who want to fund education that will cover the costs for those who can't afford to pay on their own. The U.S. is the most benevolently generous people in the history of the world, and there's no question in my mind that there would be plenty of money for education under a private system.)

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

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Monday, July 3, 2006 2:34 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I like that government is involved with education, if for no reason other than that whole "Church and State" thing; I don't think religion should have a place in education. If all education was privatized, there should be an option for every creed, up to and including atheist education; no mention of religion, just focus on fact. This is how the school system should be. While I agree the government messes up a lot, there's nothing wrong with the theory of government (tax) sponsored education. They just need to stop messing it up. Also stop trying to blur that line between church and state.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 2:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I like that government is involved with education, if for no reason other than that whole "Church and State" thing; I don't think religion should have a place in education. If all education was privatized, there should be an option for every creed, up to and including atheist education; no mention of religion, just focus on fact. This is how the school system should be. While I agree the government messes up a lot, there's nothing wrong with the theory of government (tax) sponsored education. They just need to stop messing it up. Also stop trying to blur that line between church and state.

So you support that gun pointed at your head? Sorry to be so harsh about it, but that's what it comes down to.

You actually said it right, or very nearly, "If all education was privatized, there should be an option for every creed, up to and including atheist education." Change "should" to "would" and you have it. All those options would be available, voluntarily provided by those who believe what they believe. And as long as none of them try to force their beliefs on anyone else, they should and would be allowed to open their own schools.

I agree that religion ought not to be part of education. I go further than that and say that religion ought not to be part of anything. But I have no right to force that idea onto anyone else, any more than the religious have the right to force their ideas onto me. So I have no problem with them teaching their idiocy as long as I'm not required by law to adhere to it.

Separation of church and state means that the government cannot endorse any religion - it must conduct its affairs without reference to religion. That's not a restriction on private actions, and the religious are perfectly within their rights to believe whatever they want and act as they choose, as long as they don't attempt to force anyone else to go along with them. The key word is force, which is what they're trying to do via the government schools, which are ultimately backed by those government guns. If religion, of any variety, gains a foothold in the government schools, they will have the legal power to force others to conform to their beliefs. Private schools would never have that available to them, so the danger of anyone having religion (or any other belief someone doesn't want) forced on them would not exist.

Government out of education. Out of a lot more, too.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

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Monday, July 3, 2006 3:08 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I don't support utter anarchy, if that's what you're asking. I don't support the government wholeheartedly, no, but a government is required to keep people from being at each other's throats. I think our government is messing up, but such is not always the case; we've had good administrations who made the education system better. I was lucky enough to have quite a few of my school years under such an administration, as I have heard a lot of stories recently that make my struggles in school look like a joke.
You say "would" as though it's a given, but it isn't. Nearly all private schools available right now are based in religion. Not just religion, but Abrahamic religion. That is a big problem for me, for reasons I would think are obvious.
And no, no religion of any sort should or will gain a foothold in government schools; that's what the separation of church and state is for. If you don't want such things to happen, vote against them; it's worked so far.
Anyway, you can't be only on one side of any issue. I'm sorry, but you are behaving as though there is only one right way, which is your way. I have long been of the opinion that if two sides of an issue could just meet that the solution would be far superior to what either side is suggestion by themselves. I think the idea of a blend between privatized education and public education is quite rational. Know why? Because choice is the basis of this country, and there should be a myriad of choice. That includes the choice to pay taxes for the government to do it's job and maintain facilities for education that you can then send your children to. The only thing that makes this a bad choice is if the government isn't doing its job. And whether it's doing its job depends entirely on the people in power. Who, I might remind you, are put there by a vote system. Yeah, that system also has its flaws. Nothing is going to be perfect. If independant thinkers would take one little voting lesson from the sheep and all try to vote for the same thing, then they would outnumber the organized sheep. This hasn't happened and isn't likely to, but that's not going to stop me from trying.

Is it just me, or did it get very RWED in here?

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Monday, July 3, 2006 3:20 AM