Is Serenity's portrayl of the characters true, or Did your Firefly go out? by chrisisall

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Is Serenity's portrayl of the characters true, or Did your Firefly go out?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Friday, August 4, 2006 10:13
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4817
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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:07 AM

My esteemed collegue HK mentioned that for him, Firefly 'Jumped the Shark' with Serenity.

We've heard this with Buffy- peeps say that Buffy ended for them after season 3, or 5...

I maintain the Joss is the creator (Not some measily Jackson Roy Kirk), and as such, his decisions as to where to take the characters is final...cannon if you will.

I feel Mal and co. were entirely spot on in their characterizations and actions in Serenity. The pace was different due to the medium change, but that was them all right, for me at least.

*Please insert your opinion here*

Chrisisall, the whiner

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:15 AM

TRISTAN

I have to agree with you. I am, however, speaking from the point of view that I saw the movie before the series. There were, to me, some differences between the show and movie, but that has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. Suffice to say that in my mind, I put all the minor changes down to the creators/studio/what-have-you trying to get the Browncoat message out to a wider audience. Some things had to be changed, speeded up or slightly altered, in order to reach this audience. It still worked for me; I still enjoy watching Serenity. If pressed, however, I would take the series over the movie.

______________________________________

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:18 AM

PENGUIN

I agree...some sacrifices had to be made to the movie gods to produce Serenity...I too would take the series...

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:31 AM

SPACEFRONTIERS

I think all of the characters acted "in character" throughout the movie.

Yes, some things (like pacing) were changed due to the different medium. Also because Joss was trying to squeeze in a lot of backstory for non-Firefly viewers, and trying to wrap up some loose ends for those of us familiar with the series.

--------------------------------
... but you put 'em together, you got a firefly. Thing'll run forever, they got a mechanic even half-awake.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:34 AM

CHRISISALL

Y'know, I can't even see it as an either/or proposition.

Firefly/Serenity...it's ONE story to me, just like season seven of Buffy is part of one (longer) story as well, and sure, everything's different as time (and seasons) passes, but how should it be otherwise? Characters change, grow, and sometimes die....

Change is the essential nature of all existence Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:37 AM

RMMC

No shark jumping. Things change because in real life things change. No person, situation is ever stagnant unless it's dead, Jim.

I have a friend who felt the same way after season 3 of Buffy. What she really didn't like was that the characters developed and changed as 3-D people rathr than remaining exactly the same throughout the entire series.

I'd much rather have people and situations fluid, otherwise it's comes off like bad 60's TV. With Joss's series, every action has a repercussion, good or bad. Some may take years for the other boot to drop, but drop they do.

I want characters I watch to actually learn from not only their own mistakes, but from other folks around them as well instead of making the same stupid decisions week after week. That makes me jump up on the couch and yell at them and later decide that I really don't need to waste my time on something that moronic.

Serenity had a lot of those things. Mal got darker and harder as the money got tighter and jobs scarcer. Plus that he was taken completely by surprise with Inara wanting to leave in the BDS, and was very hurt by it, he decided to protect himself and kinda shut down to the point where as Kaylee accurately points out, he actually is trying to drive them all off one-by-one in a skewed self-defense.

Kaylee isn't quite as happy and shiny either, probably feeing the effects of a.) Inara's and Shepherd Book's departures and b.) the tense atmosphere on the ship, especially between mal and Simon. She is also thinner, showing signs of the lack of money available on the boat.

Simon has become a bit more combative towards Mal, and openly so, probably on edge with the possibility of either being turned out, and Mr Top Three Percent knows the likelyhood of finding another hiding place without being either killed or turned over to the Alliance. Add to this Mal putting River on the front lines, so to speak, made for a very explosive time and very convincingly so.

So, no talk from me of the BDM falling short of the BDS.

******
RMMC

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 12:11 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I don't think there was any real difference between the characters' actions from the series to the movie, other than the fact we did not get to see the intervening storylines that Joss intended had the series continued.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 1:01 PM

WORKWORKWORK

I'm with the folks who say that Firefly/Serenity is all one thing. However, I will mention that before the movie I was a casual fan, but after I saw the BDM, I was a FANATIC!

The movie doesn't take anything away from the series and vice-versa.

Mal: Did you send word to Patience?
Wash: Ain't heard back yet. Didn't she shoot you one time?
Mal: Everybody's makin' a fuss.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 1:58 PM

STINKINGROSE

Jumping the Shark is usually when the series is well into a long run and you've run out of original ideas and it's getting monotonous and your ratings are s-l-i-p-p-i-n-g and you're getting threatened with cancellation if they don't come back up.
It usually relies on something very dramatic or a major change (often out of character for the series).
Hmm. Let's have an unexpected baby, or better still triplets!!
Or as with the original incident: The Fonz jumps over a shark.

Movies are a different medium and you can't expect your audience to be familiar, so there's a lot of exposition and character introduction to rehash quickly. THEN you get to tell your story. Which was a continuation of the series. Joss knew he *might* only have had one more shot to answer a few questions.
Don't plan for failure, but make sure you make the most out of the opportunity you have.
Characters change and react to their environment or they are dull, monotonous, and predictable.
After a while you wind up with the same script, different robbery.
Saw the BDM first. Love 'em both.
Two different works, discrete from each other. Same people, different day.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 4:27 PM

OPPYH

Of course in Serenity the characters were amped up a bit. This is what happens when your forced to cram an entire season(apparently Serenity was scraped out of the outline for season 2) into a 2 hour movie.

There have been mixed reactions from my friends who loved Firefly. Most of them argue it's nowhere near as good as Firefly. I still love Serenity, and think it's the best sci-fi movie since ALIENS, but have to agree to a point. I did enjoy watching Firefly much more than Serenity. The characters really shined on the series, and were given the time they needed to develop.

Damn Fox, Damn them all to Hell.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 5:18 PM

JOSSISAGOD

There were some, slight differences from the Big Damn Series to the Big Damn Movie

Select to view spoiler:

(mainly with Serenity herself)

of course, that's what makes Joss's shows great they are ever changing. The reverse happened with Buffy. None of these differences had any effect on how I precieved them however. I have enjoyed all things Whedon! and I still think he had a reason for season six and seven.

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!

"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 5:24 PM

TASIA

Serenity brought me in as a fan then watching Firefly I became REALLY hooked. Now, can't get enough it. Online or on the t.v.!!

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 6:17 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
My esteemed collegue HK mentioned that for him, Firefly 'Jumped the Shark' with Serenity.

I remember HK's eloquent analysis when Serenity came out. Now that I've gotten a chance to watch the movie more often, I think many of the character inconsistencies HK complained about are only there for exposition.

For example, Mal fighting with Simon. It's silly--after what they've been through together in War Stories, Ariel, and Heart of Gold. But the tension is sort of a emotional recap ("previously on Firefly") of what happened between Mal and Simon early on. Not to waste time, Joss used the exposition tension as an excuse for Simon and River to leave the boat.

And so forth. A lot of exposition doubling as a jumping point to move the story forward. I don't think Joss bastardized the characters to make them more marketable.

As least that is how I saw it. The movie didn't have the graceful finesse of the TV show. But it was grander in concept and ambition. I see it really as a play, disguised as a movie.

My only regret was the deleted scene at the end, where Mal says, "What a whiner." Damn, I wish he had kept that in there. It encapsulates Mal--the non-whiner, the guy who bites the bullet and does what he has to do. That was THE perfect ending--would have moved the movie up several notches for me had it ended with that line.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 7:07 PM

JAYNESGAL

I think the characters were about the same in both the show, and the movie. I might just have to say that they were definitely a bit more hard core in the movie, but to me that was to be expected....

You can't take the sky from me....

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 7:45 PM

MRSU

No, I would never say BDM "jumped the shark".
I loved the turns and twists in our heros' fates, and most of it was unpredictable just from watching the series, and still it was completely logical and believable.

I loved how River came to her own and became a savior herself, how Mal was forced back to be a hero from being a petty thief concerned only with survival. I read great fanfics from before the BDM and none of them imagined that coming - that's what makes a story coming from an original powerful author so special.

But I watch Firefly in a loop, can't get enough of it, and never rewatch Serenity. I don't have a need to look at BDHs in Serenity because I don't like how they look anymore, somehow. And there's not enough of them - too many action and explosions instead.

I'm put off by Gothic!River in Serenity because I liked Hippie!River so much. I don't know why that was changed. Ditto with Simon - I accepted his personality changes but was put off by his silly (in my opinion) new looks. Inara, Kaylee, Wash, Zoe - they all looked different, washed out and somewhat alien, chemistry was different.

And the movie was so sad, in a way. I think the main reason I don't rewatch it is that Serenity never felt like home in BDM. They all just suffered on it, tormented each other or been through some bad events, and it looked cold. In the end, when they were rebuilding it and going back on it, it felt like they were hammering themselves into a prison. Never felt like that in the series - because there were all those fun and family moments which really made her home.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 7:45 PM

MRSU

double post.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 8:03 PM

SPASSJUNGE

Quote:
Originally posted by RMMC:
Kaylee isn't quite as happy and shiny either, probably feeing the effects of a.) Inara's and Shepherd Book's departures and b.) the tense atmosphere on the ship, especially between mal and Simon. She is also thinner, showing signs of the lack of money available on the boat.

In some DVD feature somewhere, Jewel mentions that she gained ~20 lbs for Firefly, cuz Joss didn't want her to be that skinny. Probably just didn't have time or inclination to do it for the movie. Worked out nice, though, since it can be explained like you say.

Glänzend!

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 3:09 AM

JAMAICANBATMAN

what do BDS and BDM stand for and i dont care how stupid i look

I'm an idiot!

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 3:13 AM

JAMAICANBATMAN

never mind i just worked it out
in fact evry one ignore me

imstillanidiot

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 3:24 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
never mind i just worked it out
in fact evry one ignore me

Oh, no, it's quite alright. It took me a while to work them out, too.

---

Forgive me, for I am new.

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 3:29 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I am not seeing any real deviation from character on the part of any of the crew. Mal is a bit darker and more brooding, but that is the way he was originally intended to be by Joss before Fox stepped in & said "make Mal funnier". There is also the fact that Inara & Book have left Serenity which causes Mal to be in the mood we see in the BDM.

I agree that the change of medium and Joss need to put as much into the movie as he could may have made things seem different, but I feel the characters were right on target.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 4:13 AM

MAVOURNEEN

My Firefly didn't go out. My butt's still glowin'!

It's funny, as bouncing in my seat excited as I was in the theater, I was a little shocked at how...ummm...pretty the cast looked on the big screen.
Zoe / Gina Torres looked like she had just stepped out of the hairdresser's in every scene. Her hair was perfect. Her makeup was out of character. She was dressed differently in nearly every scene. In the BDS, we see Zoe change outfits only a handful of times over 14 episodes.
I found her new "improved" look distracting.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 8:54 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

My only regret was the deleted scene at the end, where Mal says, "What a whiner." Damn, I wish he had kept that in there. It encapsulates Mal--the non-whiner, the guy who bites the bullet and does what he has to do. That was THE perfect ending--would have moved the movie up several notches for me had it ended with that line.

THANK YOU!

We are of one mind here, Canttakesky!
I felt that it did not take away from the seriousness of the scene, and did give us the 'Mal one liner' we got so often in the series. In fact, the line was endearing, as it meant (for me) that Mal was trying to make some light of his talk with the Operative because he felt somewhat uncomfortable seeing more than a little of his old self reflected there.

Psychobabble Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 8:59 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by MRSU:

I think the main reason I don't rewatch it is that Serenity never felt like home in BDM. In the end, when they were rebuilding it and going back on it, it felt like they were hammering themselves into a prison. Never felt like that in the series - because there were all those fun and family moments which really made her home.

To me it was the difference of leaving a house and telling your SO "I love you.", and rushing out quickly and saying "love ya!" Serenity took place in hard times, and home is still home, just a home in transition, IMO.

Love keeps her in the air Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 9:46 AM

CIRHSEIN

Quote:
Originally posted by MRSU:
And the movie was so sad, in a way. I think the main reason I don't rewatch it is that Serenity never felt like home in BDM. They all just suffered on it, tormented each other or been through some bad events, and it looked cold. In the end, when they were rebuilding it and going back on it, it felt like they were hammering themselves into a prison. Never felt like that in the series - because there were all those fun and family moments which really made her home.

My feelings, exactly. And you hit the nail on the head with Serenity seeming so cold. I don't get a chance to read everything on this site, so forgive me if this has been covered before, but, visually, Serenity is colder in the BDM. I took a bunch of screencaps for a friend to show him the difference, and on the series, her interior is all various shades of brown--nice warm colors. The redesigned interior in the BDM not only has "spacier" architecture, it's all colored in blues and grey--cold colors.

For me, that's a perfect reflection of the difference between the series and the film. Joss talks about "found family," and that's what I loved in the series, watching this motley band of misfits learn to rely on another even when they didn't want to. In the film, it was like a big divorce. The banter between everyone wasn't sharp and witty, it was cold and harsh. I left the movie feeling like the crew of Serenity was not long for the 'verse.

Still, in all, I loved the film. It's a permanant part of FF history now, and I respect Joss' vision. It's just that the BDS made me happy. The BDM made me sad.

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 10:22 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Serenity is ...cannon if you will.

yeah..it should be obvious.

the TV show was cut short (again, obvious.)
so Joss was still doing 'set ups' and creating family...
but if the show had continued then Joss WOULD have killed off characters,
we saw that on Buffy & Angel. It is part of what life is all about.

Joss has been quoted as saying that he is never going to be telling the boring story of happy people.

**********************************************
River Dancing on River's Dream images at Cafe Press:
http://www.cafepress.com/embersartwork

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Friday, August 4, 2006 12:26 AM

JAMAICANBATMAN

thanks Yin Yang, and here's me thinkin im stupid or somethin.

"I mean to say."

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Friday, August 4, 2006 3:06 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

My only regret was the deleted scene at the end, where Mal says, "What a whiner." Damn, I wish he had kept that in there. It encapsulates Mal--the non-whiner, the guy who bites the bullet and does what he has to do. That was THE perfect ending--would have moved the movie up several notches for me had it ended with that line.

THANK YOU!

We are of one mind here, Canttakesky!
I felt that it did not take away from the seriousness of the scene, and did give us the 'Mal one liner' we got so often in the series. In fact, the line was endearing, as it meant (for me) that Mal was trying to make some light of his talk with the Operative because he felt somewhat uncomfortable seeing more than a little of his old self reflected there.

I too wish they had kept that scene in the final cut. I think, as you pointed out, that that one line "What a whiner" would have made a big difference. It made the mood lighter at the end of the film, we see a little of the old Mal in that line, and we also get a feeling of Mal's discomfort at the sight of the Operative's despair.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Friday, August 4, 2006 3:15 AM

ODDSBODSKINS

while it may have given mal's character more, and shown him returning to his old self, to have left that scene in, i think it would have diminished the character of the operative and what he represented. plus, i'm rather fond of a wee bit of drama, and i thought it was an excellent exit for him ^^

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Friday, August 4, 2006 7:44 AM

MIMA

so i'll step in it and admit the most jarring moment of the whole movie in characterization was mal's "love speech." my mouth fell open and i was like "whaaaaa?!" mal to me is the "what a whiner" toss off and not the "this ship flies on love when she outta fall down" i was seriously freaked out by that speech after the grim "i will shoot you now" mal. i've gotten used to it, having heard joss' commentary about mal's inner journey, and the fans explaining that speech was for us from joss, not so much from mal to river. mal to me is taciturn, practical, and closed. not that flowery.

i had no problems with grown up tough simon or extra hard mal.

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Friday, August 4, 2006 8:13 AM

DEEPGIRL187

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

My only regret was the deleted scene at the end, where Mal says, "What a whiner." Damn, I wish he had kept that in there. It encapsulates Mal--the non-whiner, the guy who bites the bullet and does what he has to do. That was THE perfect ending--would have moved the movie up several notches for me had it ended with that line.

THANK YOU!

We are of one mind here, Canttakesky!
I felt that it did not take away from the seriousness of the scene, and did give us the 'Mal one liner' we got so often in the series. In fact, the line was endearing, as it meant (for me) that Mal was trying to make some light of his talk with the Operative because he felt somewhat uncomfortable seeing more than a little of his old self reflected there.

Psychobabble Chrisisall

It's funny, when I last saw the BDM, I watched the ending and wondered what happened to that part. Then I remembered it was on the deleted scenes. Which probably goes to show that it really should have been a part of the film.

I don't think that Serenity overly departs from Firefly. It's like many here have said, the ship's fallen on hard times. That's bound to make anyone ragged around the edges. And Joss, being the sick, demented writer we all know and love, probably would have done something similar had the series continued. In fact, I can see him doing something truly heinous, like killing off Kaylee.

**************************************************

"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

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Friday, August 4, 2006 8:26 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by mima:
so i'll step in it and admit the most jarring moment of the whole movie in characterization was mal's "love speech." my mouth fell open and i was like "whaaaaa?!"

Okay, now that was Mal putting word to a feeling he knew River was seein' in him anyway. He knew she'd "like to hear him say it".

Turn of the world Chrisisall

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Friday, August 4, 2006 9:59 AM

WHITEFALL

I think that's part of it, that Mal knew that river knew how he felt, so he decided to just out and say it (at her insistance.)

But also, keep in mind what our crew had been doing for X days/weeks was repairing the ship. They lost the entire left wing, everything got banged up, and wash died in the very chair mal is sitting in. And what do you think he's been thinking about when repairing the ship? 'Damn I love this bird.' Absense, or in this case, damage, makes the heart grow fonder.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

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Friday, August 4, 2006 10:13 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
so i'll step in it and admit the most jarring moment of the whole movie in characterization was mal's "love speech." my mouth fell open and i was like "whaaaaa?!"

Whedon said something about that in the commentary... where's my memory gone? I can't remember it now!

---

Forgive me, for I am new.

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