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Originally posted by traveler:

I know it is hard to discuss such a topic without Agenda creeping in. It happens to the best of us.

It is like asking me to post with just two sentences. Nearly impossible.

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Originally posted by embers:

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Originally posted by traveler:

I know it is hard to discuss such a topic without Agenda creeping in. It happens to the best of us.

It is like asking me to post with just two sentences. Nearly impossible.

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I think it is impossible to start a thread like this without an agenda...
one to lable folks.

I heard a joke about a man visiting Ireland and he was asked if he was a Catholic or a Protestant,
he said "actually I'm a Jew"

and they respond, "yes, but are you a CATHOLIC Jew or a PROTESTANT Jew?"


JMPO that you're putting Browncoats in boxes.

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Originally posted by nvghostrider:
If a belief changes from abstract to concrete, it becomes law.

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Originally posted by BelugasMom:
Fascinating thread............I'm not a Christian, so I'll shut up and go away now.
B]

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Hey, let's start our own thread! I'm a cristian, but I like it much more to exchange thoughts and arguments on Believe, God and peoples views on the universe, than about myself. (By the way: there are some interesting exchanges on the "Is Mal an Atheist?" thread ...) - and talking to non-believers is always more interesting to me ('cause the arguments of the other side, I know myself ... )

Stay shiney!
Esther

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Originally posted by Esther:
Actually, I don't like "posing" as christian (allthough I am one). Raised by an agnostic father, I grew up with the saying: if someone has cleaned a room, you shouldn't put a sign up "cleaned". If people see that it's clean, that's enough, but if they don't, the sign is just embarrassing.

Esther



Love my captain!

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Raised as a Christian.

Still practicing, but my own personal form of Christianity (not much of a follower, me).

Ironically enough, I find it was my dabbling in hard science, philosophy, witchcraft, eastern religions, mythology, and the occult (and pretty much everything that the Church establishment tries to suppress/discredit/destroy) that led to my current appreciation for the Church. Hell, I think Holy Blood, Holy Grail should be taught as part of the religious curriculum (and that The DaVinci Code should be taught as an example of IP theft, but that's a whole 'nuther debate).

There are just so many layers, both to the mass and to the faith itself --layers that I'd guess most laity (and probably even a few clergy) don't even realize: the Church is a ritual space, cousin to the sweat lodge or the shaman's circle. The singing of psalms and hymns descended from the shaman's drum that synchronizes the spirits of the ritual participants, awakening them to higher consciousness. The Host is a transformation of the wiccan athame, representing the male essence to the chalice/cauldron's female essence. The blessing of the Eucharist and the transubstantiation (bread & wine into body and blood) draws on the principles of sympathetic magic. Holy Water (which should have salt in it) is a spiritual disruptor, and using it to make the sign of the cross is a purification before the ritual (which is why I refuse to dip my finger and make the sign when leaving church --it defeats the purpose, messing up the spiritual "charging" the mass ritual just established). . .

And that duel between Moses and the Pharaoh's sorcerers, with the staffs turning into serpents --I could fuel a whole research paper on the symbolic meaning of that sequence!

In general, my only problem with the Church is with the Establishment. I'm too much of a non-conformist to accept Obedience as a cardinal virtue. Can't imagine that any God worth following would prefer Hir followers to be willfully ignorant (honest ignorance, I can stomache, but willfully avoiding learning? I think that's a sin).

Officially, there are things humans are not capable of comprehending, and so it's a "sin" for us to try. I don't hold to that. I think our minds (and specifically, our imaginations) are the most critical aspects of our existence. I don't think there is anything we can't comprehend. Up to and including the mind of God. I think it's our responsibility to confront and learn from the things that most offend us. (Can you tell I grew up watching Star Trek? )

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Originally posted by zoid:
(NB: I dig that asexual reference, and hereby 'steal' it from you.)

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Unless of course one of the early founders of the Church was a woman-hater (oh, I dunno, say Paul -- "He kissed her on the mouth! I'm so jealous of her relationship with Him!' -- for instance)

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"That's why I never kiss 'em on the mouth." --Peter (or Jayne, whichever)

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Originally posted by zoid:

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
If this came across as having an 'agenda'... Oops! Can you forgive me?

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