'Safe' is ... holy crap, The Crucible. by Fizzix

I, too, see the connections. I studied The Crucible in English this last year, in addition to studying how it really represents the McCarthy trials in history. (And, Magdalena, you may be right with the 1960s["(?)"]... I actually thought it was the 1950s, but I'm not certain. I'm going to have to look that up later in my notes or it will drive me crazy wondering... lol)

I don't think they're exactly the same... (of course nothing is)... meaning, I don't think it was meant to really follow The Crucible. But, it certainly has elements of The Crucible in it. It would be fun to sit down and really compare them sometime. (As if I'll get to that anytime soon... I'm already behind in reading for English and school hasn't even started yet... ha ha. I'll let you have fun with that one.

)

By the way, Fizzix, I thought the reference to Chemistry crucibles was funny.

I remember thinking about the play when we first used crucibles in Chemistry last year and wondering why the two share the same name... ??

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

fizzix - yep, i gotta agree. good call!

odds - The Crucible is a short play which most here in the US have to read for their HS Lit. class.

As stated by Answers dot com - The Crucible is a play that was written by Arthur Miller in 1952. It is based on the events surrounding the 1692 witch trials of Salem, Massachusetts. Miller wrote about the event as an allegory for McCarthyism and the Red Scare, which occurred in the United States in the 1950s. Miller was himself questioned by the House Committee on Un-American Activities in 1956.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fizzix:
I just realized that I'm totally creeped out by Safe now because we just covered The Crucible in American Lit... (Snip)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... yeah.... anyone here care enough about me to have read this and noticed?

Thinking back on it (LONG time since College, and even longer since Highschool) I guess there ARE "some" parallels... The Quote is from the bible, and was used a LOT in many Christian (and Jewish) societies.

As Far as the Salem witch trials go, you have to remember that these were mostly CITY FOLKS, that got on a ship and traveled to a FAR and UNKNOWN land to live in the wilderness... Imagine being from, Say, NewYork City and then finding yourself alone (or with a small group) in The Great Northwest of the USA in the middle of the woods.. You've heard "Bigfoot" and "Sasquatch" stories all your life, and now you're wandering around (at night) where these creatures are said to live...

Point being, EVERY noise, animal scream, and Vague shape is going to be a sasquatch in your mind.

That's about what happened in Salem during the Witch Trials.. a bunch of teenaged girls, wanting a little fun and excitement in an otherwise drab and boring existence, acted out and accused people of things that scared everyone in town (Witches).. and you go to bed every night in the pitch darkness with NO ONE else for hundreds of miles around, and even those people are mostly what they think of as "Savages"...

You can see why these girls whipped up the fear in the adults as they did.

But actual "burnings" were pretty uncommon (Even though we think they were common today, they weren't).

The Diaries of some of the more notable people in Salem show that they were actually afraid to kill anyone they REALLY thought was a witch, because the witch could curse them, or change shapes and escape.. so if they REALLY thought someone was a witch, they gave them WIDE berth... they only "held trials" for those who were suspected of being ASSOCIATED with a witch (MUCH safer since the associate couldn't curse you, etc).

It's hard for us, in modern society, to wrap our minds around the thought processes of that time.. but just keep in mind they were in a strange environment, alone, and easily spooked (Same Situation as in "Safe").. add to that some general boredom and some Teenaged pranks, and you get a LITERAL meaning of "...because teenaged pranks are FUN when you're about to die" ;)

..and of course, if it's a choice between being killed in some horrible manner, or naming another "Associate" (usually someone you didn't like anyway).. which way would YOU go? Most started making up names fast! Some though (one in particular) fought back against the insanity.. he was being crushed by stones and they asked him to name a name, he simply gasped out "More - Weight". One of the FEW that were actually killed during that mess.

Logic and Religion don't always mesh too well, especially when EITHER is carried to extremes.

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..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:15 PM

You always explain things so well, B2V.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:40 PM

I think the connections to the crucible are tenuous at best.

The crucible is a work about the hysteria of the witch hunt and dangers of the mob. It’s a parallel with McCarthyism of the 1950’s and the dangers of fear guiding the actions of the mob, and how personal redemption can be gleaned through personal sacrifice and standing apart from the mob.

Safe didn’t have these themes, it had the threat of river being burnt to set up a big hero moment at the end, and a witch accusation was about the only way to do that. It was a convenient plot device, in the crucible it is the plot.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Patience:
You always explain things so well, B2V.

I paid attention in college, I had a little white rope "Honors belt" that I had to pay an extra 11 dollars for at graduation that proves it ;)

I'd rather have the 11 dollars back, cause I lost the belt within a week of graduating..

I guess they give you a ROPE belt for graduating with honors so that you can hang yourself with it when you realize that companies don't really care what your GPA was in college, so you were stupid for constantly worrying about your 4.0 average for 5 frackin years :)

Now my little Tassles are hanging in the office on my cork board along with my dog tags... both covered in years worth of dust

(You could dust them next time you come up if you want, and go "OOoooo AHhhhhh" with awe.. cause you KNOW how often *I* go into the office... ;)

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:54 PM

I'll dust 'em off, then...(too bad about that rope...:imagination goes wild for a moment::biggrin:)

I'll say hello to the bad HDs up there while I'm at it...they kill me.

Did you eat all your cake?

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:08 PM

I'm guessing you two know each other off board then.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:23 PM

FIZZIX

Quote:
Originally posted by Lissa37:
By the way, Fizzix, I thought the reference to Chemistry crucibles was funny. I remember thinking about the play when we first used crucibles in Chemistry last year and wondering why the two share the same name... ??

Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

And... I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:23 PM

Better than slightly.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:25 PM

Yeah I was getting that

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Patience:
I'll say hello to the bad HDs up there while I'm at it...they kill me.

Failed Harddrives and Disks MUST be crucified as an Example to the others that may be THINKING about failing me!

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm guessing you two know each other off board then.

Uhh, yeah, "Know" as in the biblical sense ;)

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fizzix:

Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

And... I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

Ah. The chemistry crucible connection makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for the extra information on that.

And, as for the two being a perfect match... If that's directed at me, I'm hope you didn't take what I said too offensively. I wasn't trying to criticize you. I'm glad you did mention it here.

I definitely see how comparisons can be made and why you see them as similar. And, I personally looove comparing things. It's fun! lol
I just meant that they weren't, you know, the same basic plot but in different worlds... sometimes, the comparisons are that close. I didn't mean you said they were exactly the same; I was, more or less, making a separate point.

Credit for screencaps belongs to: http://still-flying.net/ and http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/index.php

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:37 PM

Yer such a funny guy.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Patience:
Yer such a funny guy.

I think we accidently Hijacked the thread :( Sorry

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fizzix:
Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

The crucible is a type of drama that I believe was around long before The Crucible. It is litterally what you say though, put a group of people (ussually a small group or a small group of main characters) with opposite outlooks/positions into a confined location and turn up the heat. The Breakfast club for instance was a crucible.

Quote:
I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.

I get that, I understand the analogy but I don't think it works, the only similarities I see is a somewhat religious settelment seeing witches in both. But where as The Crucible litterally IS a dramatic crucible, Safe isn't, it's a lot of character exposition (what is Books past? maybe River CAN read minds) and a little bit of peril to drive that exposition, i.e. Simon and Rivers kidnap and the eventual Witch accusation and Books gunshot wound.

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No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:46 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by bad2verse:
The Quote is from the bible,

Technically, the quote is from a bad translation of the Bible. King James was a thaumatophobe --he feared and hated magic and witchcraft, and the people in charge of that translation were pandering to him.

A better translation would be "Though shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." Ironically enough, you could still accuse River, after that "poisoned blackberries" joke she pulled on Simon.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:50 AM

FIZZIX

Quote:
Originally posted by Lissa37:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fizzix:

Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

And... I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

Ah. The chemistry crucible connection makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for the extra information on that.

And, as for the two being a perfect match... If that's directed at me, I'm hope you didn't take what I said too offensively. I wasn't trying to criticize you. I'm glad you did mention it here. I definitely see how comparisons can be made and why you see them as similar. And, I personally looove comparing things. It's fun! lol
I just meant that they weren't, you know, the same basic plot but in different worlds... sometimes, the comparisons are that close. I didn't mean you said they were exactly the same; I was, more or less, making a separate point.

Not at you, specifically, the not perfect match thing. Sorry. I'm bad. And evil, and cynical... yeah.

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May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:
Originally posted by bad2verse:
The Quote is from the bible,
Technically, the quote is from a bad translation of the Bible. King James was a thaumatophobe --he feared and hated magic and witchcraft, and the people in charge of that translation were pandering to him.

Well, To be fair, they WERE locked in a room, and on a bread and water diet, until they came out with a translation everyone could agree on. There were many different translations of "the bible" floating around, and each bishop was teaching/preaching from their favorite version... King James wanted (Demanded) them to come up with ONE version, and stick to it. ;)

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fizzix:
Not at you, specifically, the not perfect match thing. Sorry. I'm bad. And evil, and cynical... yeah.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

Nah, you're not bad. Or evil. Or cynical. At least, not that I've seen... is there something you're not telling us? [I'm kidding ;) ]

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:28 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:
Originally posted by bad2verse:
The Quote is from the bible,
Technically, the quote is from a bad translation of the Bible. King James was a thaumatophobe --he feared and hated magic and witchcraft, and the people in charge of that translation were pandering to him.

A better translation would be "Though shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." Ironically enough, you could still accuse River, after that "poisoned blackberries" joke she pulled on Simon.

In referencing that Biblical Quote , does anyone have that specific book , chapter , or verse ?
I've noticed that 'bible' quotes from Firefly tend to be somewhat embellished with extraneous material , whether being 'quoted' by River or 'invented' by Yo-Saff-Bridge .

At the moment , I'm thinking that the one that is being referenced in this case is possibly from the scriptures that were written in Hebrew . Interestingly , in referencing 'magic' in the Greek scriptures , the term 'pharmakeia' is frequently translated most literally as 'druggers' , as there was a long history and association in the Greek culture with the Delphic Oracles and others who
had ' visions'. Modern research has suggested the notion that the Oracles were set in chairs near volcanic vents , where they chronically were subjected to a toxic atmosphere , perhaps inducing hallucinations from the clouds of chemical compounds like sulfur dioxide , hydrogen sulfide , etc.

So , 'poisoners' may not have been far off the mark . But , witchcraft has been associated with drugs , herbalogy , poisonings and the like , since some very ancient times , so there's probably a legitimate usage of the term witchcraft in some contexts . Wouldn't characterize the King James translation as 'bad' . It was 'contemporary' for its time . James employed the 'subject-matter experts' that were available to him from within his realm . That was a lot of years ago now . Our modern usages are very different , and things that would have been commonly understood then , are often outside the spheres of our experience and familiarity now .

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
In referencing that Biblical Quote , does anyone have that specific book , chapter , or verse ?
I've noticed that 'bible' quotes from Firefly tend to be somewhat embellished with extraneous material , whether being 'quoted' by River or 'invented' by Yo-Saff-Bridge .

If memory serves correctly is Exodus 22:18 or 19.. somewhere in that area, but I think it's 18. I may be wrong.. I stopped smoking a few days ago and all this oxygen is killing me ;)

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:40 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

"the McCarthy trials in history. (And, Magdalena, you may be right with the 1960s["(?)"]... I actually thought it was the 1950s, but I'm not certain. "

The NcCarthy hearings were 50's- 1954 thru '57, I think. Check out the movie " Good Night and Good Luck", with George Clooney

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:44 PM