I will not wear Firefly as if it were a Nike symbol on my chest. by 6ixStringJack

44 reads and no comments. That's what I figured. To those of you that I've met in here and speak to elsewhere, we'll be keeping in touch. For everyone else, this just ain't what I thought it was and I'm takin off. I hope they don't completely destroy the show for you like they've already done for me.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:28 AM

DHOFFRYNN

dude......lighten up.
it's a tv show

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:19 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

C'mon man, you just posted this thing fairly recently. Wait for some replies before you go and do something rash.

Personally I've been tempted to leave this site several times due to the narrow mindedness of people here. I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me, but you wouldn't beleive how quickly some of these people resort to name calling and accusations.

But to the point of your topic; I very much agree with you. Coperate America is a large, evil monster, and I go through extreme lengths to sever myself from it. Some people call me an extremist, but in my opinion, if you don't know how to procure food, shelter, clothing, water and protection for yourself, then you are dependent on government and corperations, and that in turn makes you a helpless leech. It is our dependence on them for the neccesities that gives them the power to lord everything else over us, including artistic property.

I haven't been keeping up to date with this whole Universal getting down on people for copyright infringement, but I've seen it happen with other things. I never understood how any organization could be so cruel to the fans that made it what it is, from Pro-Wrestling to Metallica to StarWars.

I boycotted FOX a long time ago for doing stupid shit. I'm still boycotting them today. And I think I'm gonna add Universal to that list as well.

All revolution has to start somewhere.

[IMG]

"Pain is your friend, it is your ally. It will keep you awake, and angry, and remind you to finish the mission and get the hell home. But you know the best thing about pain? It let's you know that you're not dead yet."

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:38 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

6ixStringJack,

I must say that was one passionate rant, but you neglected to mention what it is that Universal has supposedly done. You mentioned copyright law and their coming down on fans & fan made material, but I don't see any specifics. Care to elaborate?

I don't care for big corporations or what they are doing to the economic landscape today. Small businesses are being plowed under by the likes of Wal Mart and the communities of the world are poorer for their loss. People want bargains and lower prices, and with the economy being in the poor shape it is in the US means that most middle & lower class families need those bargains just to stay afloat. I HATE Wal Mart and their ilk for what they are doing to communities and small mom & pop businesses. I do my best not to shop there and to give my patronage to the small businesses that so desperately need it. Ranting against them I am okay with.

Why Universal? What have they done to the browncoat community or browncoat run businesses? To my knowledge Universal has been nothing but supportive of us and the property. Joss and the cast praise them for the chance to make the movie and their hands off handling of the movie. If not for Universal we would not have gotten the BDM and the merchandise that followed. So what is it they have done that has set you off?

I'll give you a little piece of advise my friend, you want people to follow you or understand your position you need to make clear, rational points. Passion is great, as are ideals, but rants with no clear indication of what it is you are raging against are just plain confusing. Hence the many reads and few comments.

Care to give it another go?

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:44 AM

MRBEN

While I agree with most of your comments about copyright, and have very strong feelings about things like DRM, there are a couple of things I would disagree on:

1. We just gave a Big Damn Thankyou to Universal, and for good reason. They gave us something to hope for.

2. The dust hasn't yet settled on what's been happening - I don't want to make any rash decisions until after it does.

3. I, for one, don't have huge amounts of money to spend on merchandise, and am quite happy to spend what little I have on licensed merchandise, because I know that some of the money goes back to Universal, and that makes a difference, IMHO. This is not to say that some of the non-licensed stuff isn't brilliant. But it's a different type of purchase in my eyes.

4. As I've mentioned in other threads, the silver lining to this dark cloud is that Universal obviously still consider this a viable property. The possibility of a sequel is still there.

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:51 AM

SHINYHAPPYKLIN

Dude, don't leave. You say the truth. It's just that we're all a bit in shock right now, and would like to try to regroup and plan before we lash out like the wounded beast we are.

We ARE horribly upset by this change in attitude, although it is not totally unexpected, as this happens to most fandoms at some point. I guess we just hoped that with Joss's more or less formal support of fan products, and the "corporate booty call" we all participated in with the promotion of Serenity, that we'd get a little lighter touch from the legal dept., and they'd leave all but the most blatant thieves alone.

Most of the commentary has been going on on other lists, so by the time people get here, well, they're pretty emotionally drained.

I did have on a corporate shirt yesterday (under my fanmade sweatshirt), but that was before I knew what was happening (I've been offline a lot lately). I will also not wear anything but fanmade for now. It really won't make a difference, but it is a silent protest.

I'm a fan vendor myself, so I have been hyperventillating since yesterday. So far, they've skirted me, but doesn't mean they won't deal with me eventally. They nailed Blue Sun last month, and now 11th Hour. They seem to (other than the Cafepress mess) be doing it slow and steady, putting the fear of proscecution into us all. I just don't understand why now, and why target 11th Hour. There's no call for it, and no finesse whatsoever.

They've woken up those who are mighty...it will come back to bite them if they're not careful, but we have to be careful too. Stay in touch, you have intelligent views on the copyright situation (may I quote you in a project I'm working on?), and as long as we stay indignant, but measured in our response, we will take the upper hand.

This fandom has been through far too much to fold easily. Browncoats are made of much sterner stuff. Hold with us, and we will be stronger. You'll see.

"We gotta go to that crappy town where I'M a hero..."
_______________________________
Shiny stuff for Browncoats at:
http://www.cafepress.com/outtotheblack
http://www.outtotheblack.com

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 3:06 AM

TPAGE

I'd agree with most of the comments here, I just wanted to add that technically this is exactly what Firefly is about: the big stomping on the small.

We have the Blue Sun Corporation (you could replace that with Fox here) controling a lot (ok, a lot more in the 'verse) and doing what they want. We rise up against them, they push back.

They have the might to fight us, while we are reduced to Guerilla warfare... this story has been replayed throughout history. Let's make our fight worth remembering!

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 3:28 AM

SHINYTRINKET

I, too, understand the need and the reason for copyright law, but in this case I think Universal is truly biting a loyal fan base in the butt. The fan-made products do nothing but promote the franchise of Serenity/Firefly, and ultimately help Universal sell more of its own product. And it's not like they're offering a plethora of product to the fan base in the first place. If there was more licensed merchandise out there the fans would obviously buy it, but the lack thereof has created the need for a hungry fan base to create our own.

Shortsighted corporate lawyers, anyway...!!

*************************************************
The 3 rules of aging:
1. Never bypass a bathroom
2. Never waste an erection
3. Never trust a fart

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 3:33 AM

I'm a recent convert to the Browncoat fraternity and part of the attraction was the family feeling that started on the sets, you see the atmosphere from the stories in the documentaries on the dvds etc, when the series was canned you see the family extend to the fans whose refusal to give in helped convince Universal to give the BDM a chance then the rescuer turns into a money grabbing, bullying tyrant. That's killed the attraction for me, I have the series to watch, I have the movie to watch, I have the Done the impossible dvd to watch and as a first for me - in 48 years of genre fandom - I started planning to buy merchandise (well drop hints for Xmas) now the magic has gone. It's just a tv show now - make a sequel I'll probably watch it. Will I buy your merchandise? - no - will I buy multiple copies of the dvds to spread the word? - no - Will I go out of my way to help (in however small a way) Universal make money because dammit they believed in Firefly enough to make the film - no.

It's just a tv show now and they come and go all the time.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 3:58 AM

ATIGDNG

The people that are stopping the sales of other Firefly stuff are not even the same as the ones who have anything to do with the BDM. They are doing there job, they have the right. I think it is extreme to say it is "just a tv show" now personally I don't care what they do to our verse but if there is gear to by or other merchandise I will buy it Universal or not... It shouldn't be this easy to tick off hardcore fans like us browncoats.... we shouldn't go crazy just because of some messed up legal rights in our "free" country... Just keep flying people do what must be done, it's firefly bad company or not, it shouldn't matter.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 3:58 AM

ATIGDNG

...double post

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 4:16 AM

It's all Universal and there's no problem with IP rights, the cease and desist orders we've seen are entirely understandable when a licence has been sold to another company but this case isn't just a cease and desist, it's a 3 day ultimatum to pay retrospective licence fees, surrender existing stocks and supply amongst other things sales details for earlier sales. Now - once again I'm saying that assuming this isn't a scam - that is unacceptable to me, it may be that they are operating legally but so am I when, as a consumer, I tell them to stick their products where the sun don't shine.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 4:40 AM

Thinking about the sales details demand - do they expect names, addresses, ACCOUNT DETAILS - if so that sounds more and more like a scam. 11th if you've confirmed that the originators are actually representing Universal can you let us know please.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:14 AM

KENOBIUS

Might put myself on the chopping block here, but I do want to speak my peace.

If Universal is now starting to crack down on fan-made things, maybe it's because they're planning something similar. I remember when Microsoft shut down this Halo RTS conversion and then a spell later, an official game was announced.

What ever happened to supporting those who could make a sequel/series happen? Isn't that why we all rushed out and bought official stuff in the first place? Let the bigwigs know we care enough about Firefly to buy their stuff, show them that the franchise isn't dead. That it is still profitable.

If we all run underground and make our own stuff, sure it's cool and sneaky and chic, but who, outside of the fan base will notice? Perhaps I have too much community theater politics inside of me here, but I think we need to keep putting ourselves out there to the ones with the serious coin.

Is it just a TV show? Hell no. It's magic.

Are they just pieces of fabric with things on them? Yes, they are.

And please, don't tell me I'm not any more of a Browncoat cause I won't stop wearing/buying official merch. You don't know my love for Firefly.

As Tom Hagen once said:

"It's business, not personal. It's business, and you're taking it personally."

Oh, and yes, I had a few designs taken down on cafepress before for Star Wars things, so I've been through this before.

http://tinyurl.com/ekv6z

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:28 AM

The really suspicious thing here is the demand for cash, stock and sales details - I don't remember that happening in conjuction with previous C&D orders.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:32 PM

SUZFROMOZ

I know absolutely nothing about the recent happening that you are talking about, but I did want to make a brief comment on my view on unnoficial products etc....and i guess I might have to expect some flaming too...

I personally wouldnt buy any of these unnocifical fan products because they are in breach of copyright. I see the attraction, and I appreciate the skill, creativity etc in the original designs (although Ive seen a lot that were using specific logos etc from the movie) but to me its similar to pirated movies and music - I refuse to even watch them, never mind downloading them. I think what's happening is a risk people took when they first started going down the road of selling fan products. I'm just a stickler for the rules I guess......
Im sorry if browncoats are having trouble over this though.....

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:50 PM

"Copyrights done any other way, particularly at the hands of large studios or government entities with unlimited funds and legal resources will eventually lead to the end of creativity among the poor and middle class"

That is the dumbest fu*king thing I have ever read. Why would poor and middle class people not be able to create lyrics, art, scripts, songs, dance, or whatever. How does stealing someone Else's shit make you more creative? How does not allowing anyone to steal other peoples shit end creativity among the poor and middle class? I would think that if people couldn't steal ideas from others it would make them more creative, because they would be forced to come up with their own ideas...You are an idiot, oh and most likely an asshole........Well, it's true....Oh, that was a very lame attempt at class warfare. Do us all a favor and spend your time here posting on threads like "who was the last one to post" or other mindless crap...love always Kaneman

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:56 PM

"and they'd leave all but the most blatant thieves alone."

Hey idiot #2, they do.........Well,it's true...

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:25 PM

Hello Chrismoorhead. Perhaps I was a bit too quick to leave. I know that I get very heated up when I read of such corporate oppression. It's a lot more personal this time though, considering this was not a simple cease and desist letter, but an all out lawsuit which could ruin the defendant's life.

You may very well be labeled as an extremist by a lot of people for having the point of views you do today, but that's only because we live in a country now that has no such need for intelligent people who can take care of themselves and survive off the grid. Here's hoping that we never actually have to utilize our skills in the case of an emergency that leaves the populace without the ability to acquire food or water from their local grocier (like the Spinach scare earlier this year). If such a day were to come, we would be leaders. I'm saving up for a shelter now. I figure if it ever gets bad, I'll have a place up north that I could go to out in the wilderness with everything I need to survive a few years and all the stuff I would need to make the place one that could sustain life for as long as necessary. I'm trying to get a few other people in on it with me. It's a lot easier to protect your investment and hard work when you have people you can trust who are as invested in it as you are.

BROWNCOAT1: Sorry I didn't mention what exactly it was that Universal did. By now I'm sure you know. It was floating around in a few other threads the day I started this thread, so I suppose I just figured that everyone pretty much already knew. I have a problem with the simple c&d letters FOX has been giving out to companies when there is no alternative merchandise to purchase in the first place, but Universal is starting a war by trying to ruin the lives of the people at 11th hour. They want almost $9,000.00 in retroactive licensing fees, the entire last year's worth of sales reciepts and the $150,000.00 per infringement (the one you get warned about at the beginning of the DVDs). Bad show from a company that has been whoring us out to sell their merchandise only to turn on us like this.

MRBEN: I know you just gave them a big damn thank you. This is what makes Universal's actions all the more perplexing. As for the BDM itself, it's still up for debate wheather or not it was any good in the first place. Some would say it's better than nothing, while others would say that some damage done to the story of Firefly was not worth the BDM being made in the first place. I think it's great that you feel that your money is better spent on licensed stuff. I cannot argue any point you make about Universal collecting on this and using that to consider wheather they're going to make BDM2. It could also be said that they've obviously noticed the fan made stuff as well, or they wouldn't be such bastards about it. Maybe there will be a sequel. I'm hoping the show comes back on. The movie, for me, was a disappointment.

SHINYHAPPYKLIN: I hope your business isn't targeted, or if it is, it isn't smashed with an iron gauntlet like 11th hour and you can just kinda fade from existance like Blue Sun shirts will. I feel honored that you find anything I have to say as quotable and you have my permission to quote me on anything regarding this copyright situation. I'd be interested in knowing more about your project.

TPAGE: It seems that many of us in here who love the show fail to realize that its greatness lies in the fact that beneath the shiny special effects and great acting are the real parallels Firefly's 'verse shares with life as we know it today on Earth.

Mal had an advantage on the show that we common folk here don't. Mal didn't have the all seeing eye watching him all the time. Given centuries, the Alliance would have most likely conquered and monitored the entire 'verse, but at the time of our BDH's, the Alliance was relatively young and was just spreading its wings. Mal didn't have to worry about copyright laws was because if he wanted to, he could avoid the corruption of the government almost all of the time, and he was smart enough to know how to deal with it on occasions when he was forced to. To paraphrase Chrismoorehead's statements above, the more dialed in to their system we are, the more we are forced to play by their rules. Just wait and see how much more true this will be when we all have RFID "Real ID's" and they manage to finally convert us to a total credit society. We won't have cash to buy anything we want the next time Visa and Mastercard come together and say that they will not support purchases such as when they stoped payments at allofmp3.com in Russia in the last few weeks or when they did it two years ago to online cigarette brokers.

With cash, people still have the option to find the best deal around. With credit, your purchases are monitored and controlled and if somebody decides they don't like you buying from someone or something, they can put a stop to it before you even send the payment out.

SHINYTRINKET: Exactly. There is no other merchandise out there. Fill the void and show you care about your product before you ruin everyone's fun. They shut down my guitar websites where I could download fan-made tablature for free, but I have yet to see a site where you could buy licensed tabs for $0.30-$0.50/pc. They want me to go to the record store and pay 10 to 15 bucks and buy a songbook with 2 good songs and 15 crappy ones. Sound like CD's before Napster put them in their place? That's because it is.

ARBAS: I won't go as far as to say that the show is done for me and the magic is gone. It all pretty much depends on how this pans out. If the Browncoats (the True Browncoats, that is) can make a difference here and fight back then this it's all good. It's nice to see that there is dissention here as well.... that's a start at least. It's all about the Browncoat spirit, and if we all thought that what Universal is doing was right, then the true message of the show would have been lost on all of us. This is a terribe (legal) crime they're committing against the 11th hour, when FOX has already proven that a simple cease and desist notice will get the point across. Good for you for boycotting Universal if that's how you want to handle it. They can take their gorram shirts and licenses and stick 'em in the dark side of the verse.

ATIGDNG: You're right, it shouldn't be so easy for Browncoats to be disenfranchised, but I feel we definately have a right to be angry. I have a feeling that if I knew more about the Browncoat history, it probably could be said that the reason the Browncoats lost in the first place was that they were divided and conqured. I'm not going to support Universal anymore though, just as I won't vote for Hillary in 2008 because she's the lesser of two evils. Is anyone else here getting tired of sacraficing their convictions at every turn, rather than fighting the tide?

KENOBIUS: I've learned that getting into arguements rarely has its benefits in the long run, so I must say that I cannot really comment on most of what you say because you sound like a spokesperson for the MPAA or the RIAA. Almost everything you said could be found word for word
in any one of their numerous anti-piracy propoganda documents and videos that can be found all over the internet and in our schools. Respectfully, I have to disagree with you on your statements in their entirety.

I will, however, concede that this may be a sign that they are planning a new movie. Wheather or not I'm going to see it remains to be seen. I certainly will not be paying for it though. I will await it's airing on cable TV.

And who the frack is Tom Hagen? It's hard to quote somebody and be relatable when nobody has ever heard of the person before.

SUZFROMOZ: Again I feel that while everyone is entitled to their point of view, I feel that you are another that regurgitates the indoctrination of the RIAA and MPAA. I know that there is almost zero chance of changing your mind at this point, but I applaud you as well for being able to speak your piece of mind without resorting to troll like behavior.

KANEMAN: Ahhh, yes Kaneman. I've seen you around here before. I've always thought of you as something of a troll, but I've never had confirmed proof until now. Thank you for proving me right. I would be more than happy to explain to you how I get to my way of thinking (there are many levels here, so it does require a medium level of intelligence to keep up). If you would care to reword your question into a civilized phrase and speak to me the way you would expect me to speak to you, I will be happy to oblige you. Otherwise, I have no use for you or your kind and you can go back to troll land. It's a proven fact that even if you have the most valid point ever made, nobody in the world will listen or care if you berate them, and even your supporters won't listen to you.

My recommendation to you is to pick up a little book entitled "How to Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. The very first chapter is actually devoted to NOT doing what you just did in your post.

To everyone else, I appreciate your comments wheather in agreement with me or not. I also appreciate that in our diverse culture, we will have different ideals, just like our BDH's who may have broken a rule or two along the line but were always good people when it came down to it. Anyone who is in disagreement with me... just think a little bit before you go ahead and label a so-called "pirate" a bad person. We'd be paying a lot more for CD's now(as we did in the 80's & 90's) if the "pirates" weren't out there sticking it to the major players.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:33 PM

SUZFROMOZ

SUZFROMOZ: Again I feel that while everyone is entitled to their point of view, I feel that you are another that regurgitates the indoctrination of the RIAA and MPAA. I know that there is almost zero chance of changing your mind at this point, but I applaud you as well for being able to speak your piece of mind without resorting to troll like behavior.

hmm, intersting. I am not indoctrinated by anyone - I dont even know who RIAA and MPAA are and I dont live in the US (hence the name). What I am, is someone who believes in obeying the letter of the law, even if you disagree with it. If you dont like a law, try and change it, dont break it. And as an artist also, I have a vested interest in the notion of intellectual property.

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:53 PM

There were others who obeyed the letter of the law.... Those were the Germans who followed the Nazis in WWII, when in their hearts they knew what they were doing and what was being done was wrong. They did this out of fear and because they had no power.

I realize that the Holocaust and copyright violations are two very different ballparks, but this fact does not nullify the value of one topic next to the other. This (copyrights) is a very important issue, and people should not blindly follow the leader here. This is not an issue that is only black and white. There are many shades of gray that are all going to the copyright holders because they have the money and the lawyers and all the time in the world to copyright every word we speak in the end.

I'm from America myself and our forefathers promoted speaking against your government. They told us that the price for freedom was eternal vigilance. They abhored the idea of a centralized government and the now common notion that the government should provide for it's people. If we mindlessly "obey the letter of the law" as you put it, without asking any questions, then we are just condoning our own slavery and admitting our dependence to them, and we then diserve no better.

I am an artist as well. True artists are not in it for the money. Most of them have other jobs or they starve. A great majority of artists sadly never even get noticed until after they are dead, if ever. True artists don't sell their souls so they can make a million dollars when their song is the theme for a new sports car. There isn't a thing that I would create in the world that I wouldn't want somebody else to have the ability to recreate and make better themselves. Copyrights limit our ability to evolve on an artistic and intellectual level as a species which, when you really think about it, is a very good thing if you're planning to go to war with every country in the world and you want your people mindlessly "obeying the letter of the law" and not questioning why.

Respectfully,
Mark

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 10:31 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Diclaimer: I apologize if my point gets lost in the mire of words, or if I make almost no sense. It's late, I'm tired, and I'm occupied (not that I'm making excuses or anything

).

Copyrights are a sticky subject. On the one hand, I can understand saying, "You can't use this, this, and this, because they're ours" - but, at a certain part, I also believe it should become private property, so long as there's no profit made from them (fanvids, for example). As far as fan-made sketches and lanyards - those should be the property of their creator. If they didn't take music or art specifically from the show (notice I leave out lines from the show, because, as long as entire blocks or the script is re-produced and sold, I think it's legitimate) - say, they created a Firefly logo inspired by the show, but it was more than just altering the original; or, if they did a sketch of a character, just something random based on the way they looked overall, and added some other stuff - they should have the right to make a profit from it. Heck, sometimes it's harder to create from something, because of the constraints of working with the style and look.

Having said all that (not too well), I think the actions brought against 11th hour were extreme. They weren't entirely unwarranted, but I feel that it should have been a little less abrupt and harsh. Certainly I think they should allow her to keep the guerilla marketing posters up, and (from what I've seen) all of her Cafe Press. And, really, there's only the one banner with the ship and all the faces that people should find questionable, anyway (in my opinion).

Maybe Universal is just peeved that she doesn't mention the movie specifically, or present a link to buy them (she mentions iTunes and the Firefly DVDs, anyway).

And, from what I've seen from Joss and Co., and here on the boards, I'm with the gang that sees a disconnect between Universal's suits and those who made the movie possible.

It's everyone's right to boycott things they don't like (because maybe buying official products could convince them that, somehow, people support their decisions to axe the little guys). Hell, you'll never see me shopping at Wal-Mart (

) - if it's all the same, I'd rather be homeless.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 6:46 AM

Sweetheart, I think you're being a little... extreme. Saying people aren't "real this" or "real that" because they don't agree with your opinion is ludicrous.

Laws designed to protect inventors, artists, writers, etc. can't be selectively applied depending on (1) how big the corporation is and how much money they already have, and (2) how much you really like something.

Enforcement shouldn't be based on preference... "Well, gosh, we really like those Firefly fans, so we'll let them get away with copyright infringment, but those Miami Vice fans are dicks, so we're gonna screw 'em for every cent they got!"

I think it's important to remember that Universal is a huge corporation, and the Legal Arm of that corporation is there simply to watch over the legal aspects. That doesn't mean that the entirety of Universal is bad. Hell, even my (little) company has lawyers that do things that I'm completely against, but that's business.

I think if you removed all of Kaneman's bullshit insults, he's pretty much right. Copying other people's artwork or basing your own artwork on theirs (derivative) doesn't make you more creative, and having creator protection doesn't inherently limit the creative potential of others; if it does, then those others really aren't all that creative, now are they? (And I should note: I am by no means saying 11th Hour's art is uncreative derivative work.)

Also? Has anyone stopped to consider that, when setting up all the movie contracts and whatnot, that Joss, as intelligent as he is, didn't maybe get a piece of the merchandizing pie? And maybe, just maybe, if he did, this legal arm of Universal is also protecting his rights? Just a thought.

************************************************
Not captioned for the sarcasm impaired.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sara013

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:58 AM

DAMIENWOLFE

In accordance with Godwin's Law, you lose. Bringing up Nazi's in a debate is just a sign of poor skills.

Seriously though, what's wrong with the idea of licensed merchandise? I'd much rather have my money go to Universal and Fox than Joe Browncoat. No offense to makers of unlicensed merchandise, but giving them money will certainly not help bring about more official things. We will only get more things if the companies see the property as viable. That said, I have bought a few unlicensed things as I thought they were interesting enough.

Yes, it sucks that the free tabs are no longer available, but we don't need the Blue Sun Shirts website when there are officially licensed Blue Sun t-shirts. I thought the unlicensed stuff was around just to fill the void that the official merchandise left open?

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 8:05 AM

SERYN

I have to say i'm not getting the particulars of this case - in theory I agree with copyright, but the actions of universals lawyers seem to completely ott and out of line, and ultimetly futile - akin to companies suing ten year old for thousands (well, i get 5 dollars a week allowance, i'd have you paid back by the time the sun dies) The amounts of money quoted would instantly bankrupt the people and take away everything.

Their actions were completely wrong, the c&d orders were more than sufficiant, and I wish them luck in fighting their cause.

But ulimetly how can they hope to fight? This is where the evil of large corporations is revealed, not that they shouldn't have the right to copyright the products of their clients, but that they should have their powers to persecute people capped to within reaonable limits.

And Mark is right, the power to challenge your government is a fundamental human right - one that should be exercised at every possible turn.(theres a quote floating through my head, something about 'a people should not be afraid of their government - a governmment should be afraid of the people' they exist to follow the wishes of the majority)
And in some ideal world with green fields and fluffy bunnies we would have a reliable honest and scrupulous goverment, laws that were applicable to all circumstances and lawyers and corporations that were geared to work for the moral right and the betterment of their consumers and not just the bank accounts of their shareholders.

Basically, what i think i'm waffling about is that life is shit and accepting and blithely following the shitness only validates it and makes it worse, to the point where it becomes impossible for the small person to make any difference. I'm not advocating wanton law breaking. Well, maybe i am, but in a country where only celebrity chefs can get legislation put into place in less than a decade ( in the last two or three years Jamie Oliver has managed to get the government to make sure that all children are eating a vegetable for lunch - meanwhile thousands of older people will die of poverty and neglect before the measures that can save them will be put into effect in 2012)maybe protest, legal or not, is what is needed to let the government know that we will not be treated this way.

Simple line - if you silently follow you loose your right to lead.

I have no opinion of buying official merchandise or unofficial merchandise - its a good thing that people are inspired and find an outlet for their creativity, and I agree that unofficial merchandise can boost the sale of the official (the same way that downloading a few singles can induce you to buy the album on CD) and that the companies should realise the value of their fanbases and make use of them as opposed to persecuting and alienating them.

But we all know what lawyers are like dont we? especially when its about money.

But to reiterate my only two points in that big pile of words - what universals legal department are doing to small companies is reprehensible, and we have to exercise our rights and fight our causes by whatever means we deem necessary (wheather thats boycotting a company or becoming a social recluse)in order to get our society working for us instead of for money.

Because thats all it boils down to really.

Right, now, who's up for kidnapping George Bush and forcing him to live in a trailer home in New Orleans flood damaged slums (with Tony and Cherie for neighbours!) for a few weeks. He'd bloody do something to help his own impoverished citizens then.

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway?I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 10:19 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Ignore this post. I just have to go and want to mark this thread in my most recent post log so I can find it later and read the rest of it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 10:27 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

While I disapprove of the way Universal is handling this particular case, I recognize their right to protect the interests of companies that have paid them fees for licensed merchandise. I trust that 11thHour will succeed in at least getting them to waive the retroactive fees they have specified. She still has non-logo, non-copyright infringing merchandise available on her site, and hopefully others will also work towards producing product that reflects their interest in the 'verse without utilizing copyrighted logos and other images.

I know there were people who advocated a boycott of FOX after Firefly's cancelation, but if I had gone along with that I would not have discovered Wonderfalls or The Inside, and since FOX produced the Firefly DVDS, a boycott would have entailed ignoring them as well. Boycotting Universal is not the way to go in this instance either, IMO. They are too large a corporation for that to make any kind of impact, and would also involve not watching any other program that is on one of their networks, such as Heroes, The 4400, The Dead Zone or Battlestar Galactica. I ain't gonna give those up.

Write them a polite note letting them know how much you love the 'verse, and that they should go easy on those who were only doing what they felt was their Browncoat duty in promoting the series and BDM. Don't write them a hate letter or tell them you won't buy any of their licensed merchandise, because that might cause them to not produce any.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 10:52 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

and would also involve not watching any other program that is on one of their networks, such as Heroes, The 4400, The Dead Zone or Battlestar Galactica. I ain't gonna give those up.

You watch them on TV?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:24 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

and would also involve not watching any other program that is on one of their networks, such as Heroes, The 4400, The Dead Zone or Battlestar Galactica. I ain't gonna give those up.

You watch them on TV?

If you are implying they are not worth watching, I won't enter that debate with you. Everyone has their own taste. If instead you are infering I should watch them in another way, such as downloading or streaming video, I again will not argue my case, but just say that I'd rather not tie up computer time that way.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:59 AM

SIMONWHO

Is this the right thread to publicise my new range of t-shirts...

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:11 PM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Having said all that (not too well), I think the actions brought against 11th hour were extreme. They weren't entirely unwarranted, but I feel that it should have been a little less abrupt and harsh. Certainly I think they should allow her to keep the guerilla marketing posters up, and (from what I've seen) all of her Cafe Press. And, really, there's only the one banner with the ship and all the faces that people should find questionable, anyway (in my opinion).

The banner in question was the winner in a web banner contest conducted by M80, a company enlisted by 20th Century Fox, to work with the fans to guerilla market the Firefly DVDs.

This is the banner I designed.
This is the banner which won the contest.
All fans were encouraged, officially, to use it to promote Firefly.

Of all fan made banners, this one is probably the one with the most official blessing.

The only thing that has changed since the original design is that some versions of the banner now promote purchasing Firefly on iTunes.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart

Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:29 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

If you are implying they are not worth watching, I won't enter that debate with you.

How did you get this from what I wrote?

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

If instead you are infering I should watch them in another way, such as downloading or streaming video, I again will not argue my case, but just say that I'd rather not tie up computer time that way.

1) I wasn't inferring anything.

2) I was implying what I do and in NO way saying anything about what you should do.

3) Please do not put words in my mouth.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 1:03 PM

SERYN

Just out of interest, what did you mean?

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway?I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 1:47 PM

Hell's kitten,
"I think if you removed all of Kaneman's bullshit insults, he's pretty much right"

That is true of all my posts, but most can't look past the words and see the meaning. And I couldn't care less, because I know I usually speak the truth...Well, it's true

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 1:52 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

If you are implying they are not worth watching, I won't enter that debate with you.

How did you get this from what I wrote?

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

If instead you are infering I should watch them in another way, such as downloading or streaming video, I again will not argue my case, but just say that I'd rather not tie up computer time that way.

1) I wasn't inferring anything.

2) I was implying what I do and in NO way saying anything about what you should do.

3) Please do not put words in my mouth.

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
Just out of interest, what did you mean?

That's my question too. Your post was so short and didn't really say anything, am I wrong to try to figure out what you did mean?

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 2:22 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
The banner in question was the winner in a web banner contest conducted by M80, a company enlisted by 20th Century Fox, to work with the fans to guerilla market the Firefly DVDs.

This is the banner I designed.
This is the banner which won the contest.
All fans were encouraged, officially, to use it to promote Firefly.

Of all fan made banners, this one is probably the one with the most official blessing.

The only thing that has changed since the original design is that some versions of the banner now promote purchasing Firefly on iTunes.

11th Hour

Thanks for clearing that up.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 4:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Hell's kitten,
"I think if you removed all of Kaneman's bullshit insults, he's pretty much right"

That is true of all my posts, but most can't look past the words and see the meaning.

I've noticed.

************************************************
Not captioned for the sarcasm impaired.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sara013

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 4:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Is this the right thread to publicise my new range of t-shirts...

...I would SO buy that...
*snikker*

************************************************
Not captioned for the sarcasm impaired.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sara013

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 5:19 PM

HELLSKITTEN: That's what I am. I am extreme. I am extreme because others are complacient and are perfectly fine with letting the real issues slide while they have their professional sports and iPods and MTV and Desperate Housewives to numb them from the pain of knowing deep down within themselves that they truly are not free people, no matter how many times they've been told the contrary. There is a war against all of us now... our freedoms, our ability to enjoy life, little by little, is escaping our grasp every day. It's covert and stealthy. It's behind the scenes. It pretends to be our friend. It pretends to be looking out for us and our security and well being, while at the same time turning us into robots who are encouraged to rat each other out at every turn and live with cameras on every corner, watching our every move. The copyrights are just another branch of the larger picture. The ability of the powers that be to use the legal system, fear and technology to micro-manage every aspect of our lives. I realize that I'm not the life of the party when I talk like this... when I speak these truths. People don't want to hear the truth. People want to hear that everything is going to be okay.

I'm not saying that laws should be selectively applied based on anything. I'm saying that when copyrights (which were a legitimate concern when concieved) were first created, they offered the inventor/artist the ability to profit off of their creation for a limited amount of time before the copyrights ran out and the work became public domain for somebody else to improve upon. As 11th hour said, the banner in question was one that they had created for a contest and were encouraged officially by FOX to use in any way to promote the show/movie. Enter iTunes and Universal, who no doubt have legal rights to Firefly logos now, and they attack 11th hour for doing what FOX itself officially condoned. And I'm sure, legally, FOX can't even do a damn thing about protecting 11th hour.

The arguement that the right hand of Universal doesn't know what the left hand is doing is really a non issue here and is purely speculation. Even if this were true, it does not give them a free pass to activley try to destroy somebody's business or life. Anyone under the Universal banner is a part of Univeral therefore Universal must answer for what they are doing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Copying other people's artwork or basing your own artwork on theirs (derivative) doesn't make you more creative, and having creator protection doesn't inherently limit the creative potential of others; if it does, then those others really aren't all that creative, now are they? (And I should note: I am by no means saying 11th Hour's art is uncreative derivative work.)

I sorry girl, but you completely contradict yourself in this paragraph. You don't save face at all after saying that creativity based off of other creativity is not creative and then putting a little aside saying that 11th hours work, though it is creativity based off of other creativity is creative. To say that creativity is limited to thoughts which one comes up with all on their own is to say that we no longer have the ability to be creatvie at all. I hate to break it to you, but you don't have an original thought in your head, nor do I, nor does anybody on this thread, or anybody you see on TV, or anybody in the world. Our thoughts and opinions are derived from the world around us as we percieve it. Are there degrees to which our creativity leans more towards ourselves and our souls on one extreme or to getting dangerously close to being blatant plageurism on the other? Of course there is. As in all things, nothing is black and white.

Take, for example, this work by Andy Warhol:

This was considered to be brilliant art representing the Pop Art movement (Created in 1964 or 1968 depending upon which source you're reading). Would this fly today? Absoultley not. He would have been sued for everything he had for promoting his other works with this in a gallery. There are many fans of Andy Warhol who would have strong arguments that creativity based on others creativity is not creative. I personally do not like much of Andy Warhol's work.... especially the image you see above. This does not mean that it is not good art. I don't particularly care much for certain genres of music, though I recognize their status as art and that what I think isn't good others will think is good.

And I'm sure that Joss is getting a piece of the pie, albeit a very small piece of that pie. I'm sure that it says somewhere in the multitude of clauses in those contracts that he's signed over the years that he can't do a damn thing about helping fansites if he wanted to and that he is probably legally bound not to even discuss the issue. The price you pay to be a millionare. The issue is completely out of his hands.

DAMIENWOLFE: I don't know who Godwin is, nor do I recognize his law. I have come nowhere near close to losing this debate, and though many may have legitimate claims against me on this thread, having poor debating skills is certainly not one of them and I fail to see how my arguement was used in a careless or unscrupulous way.

I do not have a problem with licensed merchandise. You prefer it over unlicensed merchandise and that's okay too. I'm even willing, at this point, to concede to you that if they start having licensed tshirts and products online that the licensed stuff should not be sold (of course there should never be anybody stopping somebody from making their own fan stuff for personal use or for friends or family). But I think that this copyright, as with all others, should end one day and become free domain to the people. Perhaps several years after the third BDM, if we are that lucky. If they keep on rolling out new Firefly eps and have legitimate fan merchandise, then I can agree there is no need for unlicensed material and that the copyright holders have a legitimate greivance. If, however, they stop making anything Firefly for an extended period of time, say 7 years, then this should be public domain. My big gripe here is the bully tactics I've mentioned on this thread countless times before. Universal is out for blood here. This was not a slap in the face to 11th hour, it was a kick in the head.

You see my arguement with the tablature.... Those were fan made tabs, not rip-offs of offical books, and at this point in time there is no other acceptable alternative. I do have over 50,000 tabs or more if you're a guitarist or you know one who might be interested. It's the entire site rip of MySongBook.com before they got the C&D letter.

SERYN: What can I say that you haven't already said. I appreciate your support on this issue, and it almost saddens me that you agree with a lot of what I say, not only because it kind of breaks my stereotype that pretty girls don't understand any of these issues because they have plenty of things to distract themselves from them, and partly because I really like you and it sucks to hear you seemingly pulling words right out of my head such as "life is shit and accepting and blithely following the shitness only validates it and makes it worse..." At the same time it makes me happy and gives me hope that maybe I'm not the only one that is getting tired of the constant infringement of our liberties and there really are others out there who are preparing to do whatever is necessary to make a difference.

BTW.... I love your comment about Bush, but if I were you I would sleep with the light on, lest the thought police come in the middle of the night and snatch you away. If that ever happens, I promise I will never forget you.

EGGORDON: I am inclined to agree with you that 11th hour will be able to get Universal to waive the retroactive fees and will probably not have to pay $150,000 per infringement, assuming they stop or have already stopped selling the questionable merchandise. I think this was just a case of Universal showing off to everyone how big their sword was and putting the fear of God in everyone not to mess with them anymore. Time will tell. All of that power centralized is kind of scary though... at least I think.

I also must admit that Battlestar is a pretty frackin cool show. I download it myself, so I don't feel that I'm going against any of my convictions by watching it (although there are probably a couple of lawyers at Universal reading this thread preparing their lawsuits against me as we speak.... you know somebody at Universal is reading this).

I myself will not write a letter to Universal. For many, this is probably a very good idea though. If I wrote one, it would either be a raving rant such as a post that KANEMAN would write and it would find it's way in the circular file before the first paragraph was read, or I would be kissing their ass or just saying things that everyone here has already said in their Big Damn Thank You, and then I would resort to pointing out how wrong they are for their current actions... which I think is fruitless because I have no doubts that they realize the lack of morality in their constitution.

SIMONWHO:

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Is this the right thread to publicise my new range of t-shirts...

You're an ass.... lol, no seriously.... That's definately the funniest thing that I've seen all day and I think in that context I would be inclined to buy it and wear it. My brother wants one too.

KANEMAN: I'm sure you have a lot of intelligent things to say. I'm open for debate, but I will not even acknowledge posts from you from this point on which resort to personal attacks and calling other people stupid when you look like a 12 year old posting. I think you got lucky by getting a pass from Hell's Kitten here because your point of view served her purposes, but I can almost guarantee you that if you keep posting like you did earlier, that she will not use you as a reference for her point of view in the future.

And finally 11THHOUR: Thank you for clearing up the issue about the banner. I hope everything is going well for you and that you're pulling through this okay. For what it's worth, there are those of us out here who support you wholeheartedly and are looking forward to a resolution to this which will benefit all parties involved. Good luck to you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 6:49 PM

KANEMAN: "I'm sure you have a lot of intelligent things to say. I'm open for debate, but I will not even acknowledge posts from you from this point on which resort to personal attacks and calling other people stupid when you look like a 12 year old posting. I think you got lucky by getting a pass from Hell's Kitten here because your point of view served her purposes, but I can almost guarantee you that if you keep posting like you did earlier, that she will not use you as a reference for her point of view in the future"

I couldn't care less who agrees with my post(getting a pass?)or who doesn't. I am right when it comes to your opinion on theft/ creativity.... it is fu*king retarded. That you don't see that, never mind the poor and middle class thingy, is ridiculous. I think you should go back and reread Hell's kitten's post. There is no contradiction. You seem to be skipping over the "if it does, then they weren't that creative to begin with"(or something like that) in her post.....6ixstringSally, it is okay to say "Yeah, that was a dumb fuc*ing post. I was pissed and not thinking at the time". I don't think people will think less of you. You will always be a touchy whiny little sap to anyone that reads your posts......Well, it's true.....

Oh, Andy Warhol's Campbell soup can is the most overrated piece of art since my first paint by number painting in 2nd grade(my mommy loved it). There is nothing creative about it, never-mind it being "brilliant". Don't tell me.. "but artists and art professors say......." Talk about sheep...Shit, that fuc*king elephant I watched paint at the circus is more creative than that degenerate....Well, that is my opinion......

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:38 PM

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
......Well, it's true.....

You've proven KANE that you are, in all intents and purposes, useless ......Well, it's true.....

What the hell is that anyway? Does it make you feel better throwing that little extra something in at the end? Do all the extra periods add a modicum of drama to a block of drivel that is otherwise childish and asinine? It makes you look like even more of a fool than I already believe you to be.

I personally feel that you have proven nothing in this thread other than what a complete piece of shit you are capable of being. Go back to Troll Country where people like you can actually amount to something.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:48 PM

Ah Kaneman.... you never cease to amuse me. Dance, my little puppet... dance.

BTW my friend.... Warhol's Campbell Soup silkscreens are going for an asking price of $15,000.00 at the artbrokerage.com now. Check out this link: http://www.artbrokerage.com/art/warhol/warhol_5154.htm

I'm not sure that you could get them to sell your paint by numbers for that, but it's worth a shot. Do let me know how that goes, will you?

That's a good boy.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 8:54 PM

RABBAN

One of the points that I see to Firefly is not just supporting Firefly but to support is thoughts and ideals... What could be more fun that listening to the rules rants and rages and finding another way to subvert them? Hell, that's just plain FUN!
Just the challenge excites me.. Wait for my products. I'll be doing glass etchings of anything in the verse.

Have fun in life and rebellion... But by all means enjoy it!

"Courage is being scared to death.. but Saddling up anyways."

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 9:08 PM

RABBAN

By the way.... EXCELLENT rant! Got a lot of folks stirred up and thinking.

"Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyways."

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Monday, October 30, 2006 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
......Well, it's true.....

You've proven KANE that you are, in all intents and purposes, useless ......Well, it's true.....

What the hell is that anyway? Does it make you feel better throwing that little extra something in at the end? Do all the extra periods add a modicum of drama to a block of drivel that is otherwise childish and asinine? It makes you look like even more of a fool than I already believe you to be.

I personally feel that you have proven nothing in this thread other than what a complete piece of shit you are capable of being. Go back to Troll Country where people like you can actually amount to something.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

Babywiththepowder,
Eat me, you limp di*ked baby killer.

........Well it's true........Is there just to get a post out of you...Fuc*king baby killer....Well, it's true........

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Monday, October 30, 2006 2:28 AM

"That's a good boy....."

Sure

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Monday, October 30, 2006 2:53 AM

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Babywiththepowder,
Eat me, you limp di*ked baby killer.

........Well it's true........Is there just to get a post out of you...Fuc*king baby killer....Well, it's true........

Wow, 6isStringSally and Babywiththepowder. Is there no limit to your razor sharp wit? I submit there is not.

As far as me being a "baby killer", well I've been called much worse by much better people.

You obviously have serious personal issues. Maybe your mom didn't breast feed you as a child, maybe you've got some physical deformity, maybe you're just socially retarded and are incapable of carrying on a conversation. I don't know, and frankly don't care. But you're the same kind of trash that appears on every board I've ever been on. You are a failure in real life, so you make it your mission to be top shit on any board you're on. You constantly have to be contradictory because you feed off strife. You aren't happy unless you believe you are upsetting others. In other words, you're pathetic. You are the aborted fetus of the Internet generation.

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
"That's a good boy....."

Sure

Wow. You told him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

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Monday, October 30, 2006 7:36 AM