Simon - Give the Doc a break. by TheSomnambulist

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Simon - Give the Doc a break.

POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Saturday, January 6, 2007 12:09
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VIEWED: 3014
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Friday, January 5, 2007 1:38 AM

Simon I think is a little hard done by in the show.

Anyone else notice that if he failed to give Kaylee a compliment or he looked beyond her feelings for him, he was in some way a baffoon, or insensitive. As though:
"She likes you fella, LIKE her back..."

But y'know what if the roles where reversed nobody would be thinking that of Kaylee.

When I had crushes on girls at school and they paid me no attention I don't remember anybody going up to one of them and saying how insensitive they were! On the contrary I remember being told I didn't stand a chance and to give-up.

It's almost as though because Kaylee liked Simon he HAD to like her also.

Now Kaylee is CUTE no doubt, but the poor fella had a sick sister to look after. His mind was elsewhere. He didn't have time for any of that.

So my sympathies go to Simon.

Now when I re-watch the show I feel that Kaylee is more of a pest than anything, and really how would he know her feelings where genuine - they're alone in space and frankly any new blood that came along would look good to her. Note THE MESSAGE in fact that dood was dead and she liked him. I mean really!

Any thoughts?

TheSomnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Friday, January 5, 2007 3:53 AM

ZZETTA13

It's a pattern writters know. Shows do well if there's a romantic tease in them. This was also the case with Firefly.Joss and company used the romantic uneasiness of Inara and Mal with Serenity as being Mal's unforgiving g/f.

There was the strong m/f relationship of Zoey and Wash that shows that some couplings can work out well.
Then there's Simon and Kaylee ( The anti-relationship) The dark side of the mirror with River in the middle. Mal and Inara's uncomfortable scenes together could be matched by Simon and Kaylee's with the writters playing with the S/K scripts just to see where it would go. Mal/Inara is a silent romance that would have gone on for a long time and maybe never happened at all.

It's a little funny in the Message eps (I think) where S/K are in the ships corridor about a space monkey's breath from kissing.Then Preacher Book shows up. Here is a man that joins ppl together, yet in this case he scares them apart.

Z

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Friday, January 5, 2007 4:17 AM

REGINAROADIE

I'm kind of in the same boat when ti comes to Kaylee and SImon in the series. I love them as a couple, pretty much all my fanfics center around Simon more or less because he's the one character that I identify with the most, and I hope that in the future, when I make my first real professional movie, Jewel and Sean arn't too expensive so that I can reunite them as my leads (But not have them essentially reprise their characters. If anything, I'd like them to reverse roles and have him be all bubbly and energetic and her be down to earth and repressed).

But when I actually see the series, one thing that I notice is that Kaylee seems to be a bit oversensitive when it comes to Simon. Obviously Simon has a lot going on at this point in his life, and a girlfriend isn't necessarily on his mind. It's only over time that he really develops any feelings for Kaylee. And like any guy in the world, when he gets said feeling for girl he likes, he has a hard time expressing them. But the stuff he said to her that made her all angry and stuff is stuff open to misinterpretation. Like in "Jaynestown" when he says "I would never..." It's "I would never violate your mechanic, Captain." Not "I wouldn't with her, she's not my type." And in "The Message", the date a the beginning was him trying to be romantic and say, "You're the only girl in the verse to me." but mangling the delivery of that line, which is why it's best to repeat these kinds of things in your head before actually saying them.

But at these moments, Kaylee (being the incredibly emotional person she is) just throws a hissyfit and turns away before he has a chance to explain himself. It's at this moment, as well as in "Shindig" when Mal makes the "sheep walking on it's hind legs" comment that it's clear that Kaylee is really thin skinned and overly emotional. And an overemotional gal is just as much a turn-off as a guy who doesn't know how to say the right thing to a gal at the right time.

This was something that I actually dealt with in my stories. That in four years, Kaylee learned how to not be overly emotional and to actually confront Simon when he does say the wrong thing. Like in Chapter 2 of YCGHA, when he erupts at her right after he's found out Regan is dying of leukemia, instead of turning around and crying (which given that she's 4 1/2 months pregnant at the time for once understandable), she actually toughens up and says that she has dealt with parental alienation before and that it's somethign that you can deal with.

And I think in turn, if FIREFLY was still on the air, that Joss would hae transformed Kaylee a bit. That she retain her goodness, but not be overly emotional. That she toughen up a bit and be more of an actual adult.

But I was glad that by the end, which in my mind is "Objects in Space", they had developed to the point that they had gotten past these barriers and that they could behave like a normal couple. And in the BDM, while there was that awkwardness to them, it is of course resolved with him finally saying the right thing at the right time.

**************************************************
"Wait a minute, you're not Santa! You're not even robots!! How dare you lie in front of Jesus!!!"

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Friday, January 5, 2007 5:54 AM

CYBERSNARK

It's not just writing, human relationship politics are spectacularly lopsided, with men biased against from the get-go.

When a girl is interested in a guy, it's considered a special circumstance, and the guy is socially obligated to make a move (I don't mean "make the first move," but he has to respond in some way --for a guy to ignore a woman's affections is verboten).

When a guy is interested in a girl. . . well, it's nothing special.

Women are allowed to play hard-to-get, but guys are expected to jump on any bit of female flesh that smiles at them.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, January 5, 2007 7:21 AM

SIGMANUNKI

But, he did like her. He was also socially inept when it came to girls. What's the problem?

Also, if she saw Simon of not reciprocating her advances, or messing up constantly, then of course she'll take a look at someone else that might cross her path. Hell, how many times have you given a look at someone as you walked about? This combined with her being really outgoing is a recipe for flirtation. And flirtation does not equal her interested in inviting the guy into her bed btw. How many women do you know that are like that?

Just think of her as having a poor brain filter when it comes to these things i.e. "Have good sex!" - Kaylee to Inara

And I really don't think that she liked the dead guy. Appreciated his looks, profound respect for the dead, yes. Liked him liked him, no.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, January 5, 2007 8:49 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:
But, he did like her. He was also socially inept when it came to girls. What's the problem?

That is the problem. Don't you think that's jumping the gun a little. I mean he wasn't great with communicating to Kaylee, I grant you that, but that doesn't make him socially inept. Jayne on the other hand is, as witnessed here:

"Hell Kaylee just wishes you was a gynaecologist"

That uttered with others' sat at the dinner table, now that is someone who is socially inept.

Quote:
Also, if she saw Simon of not reciprocating her advances, or messing up constantly, then of course she'll take a look at someone else that might cross her path.

Granted she is of course going to look out for other suitors, however her reactions when Simon doesn't reciprocate in her favour tend , to my mind, be a little hostile and overly sensitive.

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Hell, how many times have you given a look at someone as you walked about?

...er well several, but I don't see what that has to do with anything...

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This combined with her being really outgoing is a recipe for flirtation. And flirtation does not equal her interested in inviting the guy into her bed btw.

Of course not. I hope you don't think I was implying such a thing. Not my style. However it is interesting that in The MESSAGE Kaylee does indeed take Tracy back to her bunk and they are sat on her bed as the ship is swaying this way and that.

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How many women do you know that are like that?

There's a question... Well in all honesty. More than I wish to mention I'm afraid. But that's an altogether different story and should be told at a different time.

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Just think of her as having a poor brain filter when it comes to these things i.e. "Have good sex!" - Kaylee to Inara

Indeed. Although I thought that more ironic. But it's a good point and maybe the crux (strange word, don't think I've ever written that out before...Crux... Hmmm anyway). Yes I think that's my point. Kaylee and Simon are two very different people, socially I mean, and I think Simons manner is just far more reserved and dare I say it, chivalrous. Kaylee is maybe too keen, and that's perhaps something that Simon has had little contact with. Thus he appears like a boob, as River says, but really it isn't something that they should all be jumping down his throat at. No?

As with Kaylee in SHINDIG when she is laughed at by the snobbish girls, it's as a course of her being in the wrong environment. She isn't inept socially, just a fish out of water. This is Simon's predicament on the ship. He is in the wrong environment given his upbringing.

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And I really don't think that she liked the dead guy. Appreciated his looks, profound respect for the dead, yes. Liked him liked him, no.

Don't you? I did. I thought that the very point. I thought that Tracy (in dead guise) was attractive to her. OK not AS a dead guy, but she could see, with the audio, that Tracy alive could be someone she could connect with.

Just my thought...

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Friday, January 5, 2007 10:47 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

But, I don't want to give either one of them a break. Simon's a nice character (when he's not around Kaylee), and Kaylee's a nice character (when she's not around Simon); together, they both irritate me. I shake my fist at them!

Rules on voting here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

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Friday, January 5, 2007 11:12 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

That is the problem. Don't you think that's jumping the gun a little. I mean he wasn't great with communicating to Kaylee, I grant you that, but that doesn't make him socially inept. Jayne on the other hand is, as witnessed here:

"Hell Kaylee just wishes you was a gynaecologist"

That uttered with others' sat at the dinner table, now that is someone who is socially inept.

Well, there is more than one way to be socially inept. Jayne is socially inept in one way (crude), whereas Simon is socially inept in a completely different way (stiff with an inability to talk to girls).

Just because someone isn't a total extreme with regards to being socially inept, does not make them not socially inept.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Granted she is of course going to look out for other suitors, however her reactions when Simon doesn't reciprocate in her favour tend , to my mind, be a little hostile and overly sensitive.

You've talked to young women, right?

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

...er well several, but I don't see what that has to do with anything...

My point is that everyone takes a look, some talk and flirt as well and more adventurous spirits will go a little farther. I would put Kaylee between the 2nd and 3rd.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Of course not. I hope you don't think I was implying such a thing. Not my style. However it is interesting that in The MESSAGE Kaylee does indeed take Tracy back to her bunk and they are sat on her bed as the ship is swaying this way and that.

I wouldn't say that she took him back to her bunk. They were told to go below and it just so happened that they went to her bunk. It probably had as much to do with the fact that it was right there as with the imminent danger.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

There's a question... Well in all honesty. More than I wish to mention I'm afraid. But that's an altogether different story and should be told at a different time.

My point was that she is a certain type of person and that certain type of person isn't rare. I was also making reference to that certain type of person so that we both know what type of person we're talking about (or similarly speaking). Hm... perhaps that was hard to follow

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Indeed. Although I thought that more ironic. But it's a good point and maybe the crux (strange word, don't think I've ever written that out before...Crux... Hmmm anyway). Yes I think that's my point. Kaylee and Simon are two very different people, socially I mean, and I think Simons manner is just far more reserved and dare I say it, chivalrous. Kaylee is maybe too keen, and that's perhaps something that Simon has had little contact with. Thus he appears like a boob, as River says, but really it isn't something that they should all be jumping down his throat at. No?

I don't think that it was ironic. More along the lines that the writer wanted to make a very good distinction between Kaylee's behaviour and what Simon finds acceptable (remember his reaction).

I would agree that they shouldn't be jumping down his throat if it weren't for the specific comments that he has made. Remember his oh so romanic comment that he's attracted to her because she's the only available woman? In that scene he certainly was a boob.

For that matter, remember what Zoe said to him after he admitted that he could talk to girls? To paraphrase, "Why, is there someone you're good at talking to?"

I would also say that Kaylee, from how she became the ships mechanic, is far more sexually promiscuous than Simon. Well, that's putting it lightly

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

As with Kaylee in SHINDIG when she is laughed at by the snobbish girls, it's as a course of her being in the wrong environment. She isn't inept socially, just a fish out of water. This is Simon's predicament on the ship. He is in the wrong environment given his upbringing.

I wouldn't say that. Sure Simon is a "fish out of water", but if he said the things that he has said to Kaylee to some woman of his social caste, I would gather that he'd get the same, or pretty much the same, reaction.

Girls are girls no matter what. And no girl wants to hear that the guy is only interested in them b/c they are the only one available.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Don't you? I did. I thought that the very point. I thought that Tracy (in dead guise) was attractive to her. OK not AS a dead guy, but she could see, with the audio, that Tracy alive could be someone she could connect with.

I didn't get that at all. I'll make sure to keep an eye out for that the next time through the series through.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Just my thought...

And my differs... obviously. But that doesn't make either of us totally wrong. I'd say, we're probably both right and wrong is a few ways with some overlap

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, January 5, 2007 12:06 PM

DEEPGIRL187

If you think about it, almost all of the men (I'll exclude Wash) are socially inept in some way or another.

Jayne, as was stated earlier, has a problem with crudeness. He feels that he has the right to say what he wants, when he wants to say it, and heaven help anyone who tells him otherwise.

Simon has trouble with social mores. He misses the cues in conversations that would allow him to relate to other people.

Mal is also socially inept, but in a different manner. His archaic views of how the world should work prevents him from seeing how the world does work. Not to mention his sexist views of certain professions.

In some ways, I think that Wash is the only male on the ship that sees the world and relationships for the way they really are. Not saying he's perfect, but he's not as far behind the learning curve as the others.

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

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Friday, January 5, 2007 11:26 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:
Well, there is more than one way to be socially inept. Jayne is socially inept in one way (crude), whereas Simon is socially inept in a completely different way (stiff with an inability to talk to girls).
Just because someone isn't a total extreme with regards to being socially inept, does not make them not socially inept.

Well, I dunno - who are we to make the judgements then... Is being socially inept not jut being social?

Quote:
You've talked to young women, right?

HA! Yeah have one right by my side :D However just BECAUSE Kaylee thinks it, doens't deem it so.

Quote:
My point is that everyone takes a look, some talk and flirt as well and more adventurous spirits will go a little farther. I would put Kaylee between the 2nd and 3rd.

I'd put Kaylee right up there with the girl who would really destroy the men's spirits. Not in a mean way, but because of her playfullness, her persona would naturally attract. Attract refined men, Simon, or crude men Jayne, or in between men, Mal, and her naivete would consume their spirit as they try to connect with her. She of all the women on the show demanded the most validation. To almost child-like demands.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that she took him back to her bunk. They were told to go below and it just so happened that they went to her bunk. It probably had as much to do with the fact that it was right there as with the imminent danger.

Ha! Ok :D You watch it again though, look at the body language of Kaylee. I'm no 'Casanova' by any means but y'know what I've seen that look before and it didn't lead to starting a book club. ;)

Quote:
My point was that she is a certain type of person and that certain type of person isn't rare. I was also making reference to that certain type of person so that we both know what type of person we're talking about (or similarly speaking). Hm... perhaps that was hard to follow

Yeah I get ya. :D

Quote:
I don't think that it was ironic. More along the lines that the writer wanted to make a very good distinction between Kaylee's behaviour and what Simon finds acceptable (remember his reaction).

I would agree that they shouldn't be jumping down his throat if it weren't for the specific comments that he has made. Remember his oh so romanic comment that he's attracted to her because she's the only available woman? In that scene he certainly was a boob.

Y'know while I agree with you about Simons comment being grossly insensitive, it was also true! A bad time to point out the truth I grant you. But no-one should be lambasted for telling the truth... should they? :D

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For that matter, remember what Zoe said to him after he admitted that he could talk to girls? To paraphrase, "Why, is there someone you're good at talking to?"

Again way to harsh. Zoe wasn't exactly a wordsmith either.

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I would also say that Kaylee, from how she became the ships mechanic, is far more sexually promiscuous than Simon. Well, that's putting it lightly

Ha! Yup.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that. Sure Simon is a "fish out of water", but if he said the things that he has said to Kaylee to some woman of his social caste, I would gather that he'd get the same, or pretty much the same, reaction.

But that's my point in his environment he would never meet someone like Kaylee. But anyway this goes to illustrate some of Kaylee's social inadequacies. She ploughed in conversation and made a mess of it, to the point where a refined older gent came and resued her.

Quote:
Girls are girls no matter what. And no girl wants to hear that the guy is only interested in them b/c they are the only one available.

Fair enough. Guys wouldn't care either way. Guys are guys. *puts on blokes hat* :D... so .. there!

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I didn't get that at all. I'll make sure to keep an eye out for that the next time through the series through.

Hey I could be reading way too much into it ;)

Quote:
And my differs... obviously. But that doesn't make either of us totally wrong. I'd say, we're probably both right and wrong is a few ways with some overlap

Yup. I agree for the most part with you, but I feel poor Simon needs a little sympathy given the weight of his predicament. It is a little unfair, methinks, to expect him to be treating his mentally sick sister, and then to detune to almost at the flick of a switch, to making happy with a ships mechanic who is slightly er...Shall we say anxious. Er humm. :)

Anyway I love stuff like this. Thanks

www.cirqus.com

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Friday, January 5, 2007 11:31 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by deepgirl187:

Quote:
If you think about it, almost all of the men (I'll exclude Wash) are socially inept in some way or another.

Jayne, as was stated earlier, has a problem with crudeness. He feels that he has the right to say what he wants, when he wants to say it, and heaven help anyone who tells him otherwise.

Simon has trouble with social mores. He misses the cues in conversations that would allow him to relate to other people.

Mal is also socially inept, but in a different manner. His archaic views of how the world should work prevents him from seeing how the world does work. Not to mention his sexist views of certain professions.

In some ways, I think that Wash is the only male on the ship that sees the world and relationships for the way they really are. Not saying he's perfect, but he's not as far behind the learning curve as the others.

Wow! Really? So the women are all socially capable but the men aren't? Is that what you're saying?

The planets "Venus" and "Mars" springs to mind

www.cirqus.com

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Friday, January 5, 2007 11:33 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by Cybersnark:

Quote:
When a guy is interested in a girl. . . well, it's nothing special.

Women are allowed to play hard-to-get, but guys are expected to jump on any bit of female flesh that smiles at them.

Actually I think that's a trait through all of Joss' shows.

www.cirqus.com

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Friday, January 5, 2007 11:35 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by reginaroadie:

Quote:
I'm kind of in the same boat when ti comes to Kaylee and SImon in the series. I love them as a couple, pretty much all my fanfics center around Simon more or less because he's the one character that I identify with the most, and I hope that in the future, when I make my first real professional movie, Jewel and Sean arn't too expensive so that I can reunite them as my leads (But not have them essentially reprise their characters. If anything, I'd like them to reverse roles and have him be all bubbly and energetic and her be down to earth and repressed).

You know that is a really sweet thing to believe in. I for one hope you have the chance to work with them. What a conclusion to a tale would that be?
Good luck.
You made me smile.
The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Friday, January 5, 2007 11:37 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by zzetta13:

Quote:

It's a little funny in the Message eps (I think) where S/K are in the ships corridor about a space monkey's breath from kissing.Then Preacher Book shows up. Here is a man that joins ppl together, yet in this case he scares them apart.

Ohhh nice observation!

www.cirqus.com

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 3:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Now Kaylee is CUTE no doubt, but the poor fella had a sick sister to look after. His mind was elsewhere. He didn't have time for any of that.

That's the heart of the matter, is that too few look at the situation from Simon's point of view. He's on the run, disowned his parents, given up his forturne, given up his life's ambition of being the best doctor in the entire system,....and has to figure out what next to do w/ River! Where will they go, what will he do for a living? Stuff like that. Even if he had taken time to stop and think of Kaylee, he had to know in the back of his mind that he wasn't going to be on Serenity for too long, so what point was it to get invovled w/ her and break 2 hearts ?

I watched the BDM again last night, and it finally hit me just how out of bounds Mal was when he attacked Simon for not telling them about River. Simon knew the Alliance was after River, so he took her as far away as he could, so they wouldn't 'get' to her. But here's the part Mal is overlooking. Simon NOT telling Mal or the rest of the crew all Simon knew about River was probably for their own good. If somehow the Alliance knew anyone on the ship was keen on just exactly what River was, they'd likely all be dead. Of course, in hindsight, Simon could have told Mal,and Mal alone, but even so, by keeping the REST of the story from everyone else, Simon was trying his best to protect them as much as protect his sister.

Simon doesn't get near enough credit, imo.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 3:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
Quote:

It's a little funny in the Message eps (I think) where S/K are in the ships corridor about a space monkey's breath from kissing.Then Preacher Book shows up. Here is a man that joins ppl together, yet in this case he scares them apart.

Ohhh nice observation!

Nice observation, to be sure. But I think Book is more inclined to join ppl together for a lifetime committment, and not so much for a quickie back in the engine room.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 5:32 AM

PSYBORG

Huh! I just realized that scene was a visual pun- Book standing behind Kaylee and Simon kissing, reading out of the Bible. Like a wedding ceremony! Huh. I wonder if that was intentional.

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 6:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Psyborg:
Huh! I just realized that scene was a visual pun- Book standing behind Kaylee and Simon kissing, reading out of the Bible. Like a wedding ceremony! Huh. I wonder if that was intentional.

excellent observation! too bad it won't come to pass on screen for real.

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 10:10 AM

ZZETTA13

PSYBORG,AURAPTOR that is just the image I was thinking about when I posted the scene of the preacher,Kaylee and Simon. The joining of two ppl as one with a simple kiss. Not a marrage or anything just something simple that would signify a change in the relationship. Simon and Kaylee are maybe a foot apart in that scene and the viewer starts to get the impression that
"Hey this time they really are going to do it. They are going to kiss." With the arrival of S.Book though it just didn't happen. It just spoke something. It wasn't Mal or River that stopped to two from the kiss. It was the preacher. Don't know if that was intentional or not.

Z

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 10:27 AM

LEIASKY

>Huh! I just realized that scene was a visual pun- Book standing behind Kaylee and Simon kissing, reading out of the Bible. Like a wedding ceremony! Huh. I wonder if that was intentional.

Wow, I'd never thought of that. Would be interesting to hear Joss' take on that scene and see if it was intentional.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 12:01 PM

DEEPGIRL187

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Wow! Really? So the women are all socially capable but the men aren't? Is that what you're saying?

The planets "Venus" and "Mars" springs to mind

No, I'm not saying the women are all socially capable. But since this particular thread was in reference to a male character, I thought I'd point out that Simon wasn't the only male on board the ship with issues socially. Joss delights in making flawed characters, and that means everyone. I'm not trying to harp on the men, just trying to make a point.

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 12:09 PM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

I do think that Kaylee really has no reason for being all pissed at Simon when he accidentally insults her or something. He does have more important things to think about, like River and being a fugitive and whatnot. He also says in the Message that he's not very good at talking to girls.

But I do still like Simon and Kaylee when they're getting along!

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Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

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