Objects in Space question by avalonsmommy

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Objects in Space question

POSTED BY: AVALONSMOMMY
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 20:42
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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:52 AM

At the beginning of the episode, where River is walking through the ship, and Book says "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that leave you?", is that something she is actually picking up from his mind? Because it sure sounds rather un-Shepherd like to me. Or were those scenes all something planted in her head by Jubal Early?

Burn the land and boil the sea; you can't take the sky from me

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:57 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

It was something she was picking up from his mind. There are various discussions on the "Firefly Episode" forum as to what kind of light this line might shed on Book's dark and mysterious past.
Early couldn't have planted such things in her mind. For one thing, a couple of the lines had already been said, or were said in the same episode. There's lots of discussion as to what some of the other lines might mean as well, particularly Inara's.
River was looking for the voice that didn't belong. She heard Jubal Early in her head and went looking for him because he wasn't supposed to be on the ship. That's how I see it, anyhow, and I think Joss mentioned as much in the commentary, too.

[]

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:43 AM

IREMIST

If you break that comment down to the basic, "I don't care if you ARE innocent" then I personally came up with 3 results..
A. That the possibility that Book was Alliance and he was saying "I don't care what they did to you, if it was in the best interest for the Alliance" which is pretty bad...
B. The statement itself has violent connotations and possibly sexual connotations which would mean Book doesn't have as pure thoughts as he pretends, evidenced by the conversation he and Jayne were having at the time...
C.I don't care if you are innocent or not, you are putting me (and my history) at risk just by being on this ship...
Ya, this one bothered me as well!

Sometimes good guys wear brown! and sometimes people who pretend to be richeous AREN"T!

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:51 AM

ZZETTA13

I agree w/PR. There's also a line from Jubal Early where he says " That ain't no Shephard." in reference to Simons questioning about doing harm to Book.

All through the eps Books past and motives are in question and since the series was so short lived I think Joss and company didn't get a chance to explore where they were taking this (damn you to Hades F*X).Anyhoo I have no idea how far in advance writers come up with the stories of their tv shows. With Books character I think they were caught with their pants down because in the BDM it shows Book as a total good guy even to the point where he is taken out by the Alliance themselves ( or was that just his expendable twin) I'm ready to find out when "Serenity 2-The Search for Wash" comes out.

Z

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:10 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Iremist:
If you break that comment down to the basic, "I don't care if you ARE innocent" then I personally came up with 3 results..
A. That the possibility that Book was Alliance and he was saying "I don't care what they did to you, if it was in the best interest for the Alliance" which is pretty bad...
B. The statement itself has violent connotations and possibly sexual connotations which would mean Book doesn't have as pure thoughts as he pretends, evidenced by the conversation he and Jayne were having at the time...
C.I don't care if you are innocent or not, you are putting me (and my history) at risk just by being on this ship...
Ya, this one bothered me as well!

The thing is, he wasn't looking at River. Unlike Jayne, Simon, and Inara (?) he wasn't looking at her and his thoughts were not directed at her. This was something coming up from his past. Something he had said when he was connected to the Alliance in whatever way it was he was connected to them.
Interesting to note: in the shooting script for 'The Message' after the confrontation with the officers, Jayne says to Book "You either spent a lot of time fighting bad cops or being one." and Book replies with "Maybe both." That's what I've heard, anyway; waiting for the next Official Companion to confirm it for me, since I'm not lucky enough to have any scripts.

[]

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:27 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Interesting to note: in the shooting script for 'The Message' after the confrontation with the officers, Jayne says to Book "You either spent a lot of time fighting bad cops or being one." and Book replies with "Maybe both." That's what I've heard, anyway; waiting for the next Official Companion to confirm it for me, since I'm not lucky enough to have any scripts.

I'm anxioulsy waiting for the second companion volume too, but until then you still can check out the original scripts - http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=16&t=4276 - count down seven posts on that thread for links to the scripts.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:37 AM

FLYVOTE

Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
I'm ready to find out when "Serenity 2-The Search for Wash" comes out.

Eh?
Serenity
Serenity: The Alliance Strikes Back
Serenity: The Return of Wash

---- ---- ---- ---- ----

Flyvote (version 1.2):
http://www.usbmicro.com/misc

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:58 AM

IREMIST

He may not have been looking at her, but I believe he knew she was there and if Book wasn't thinking that about her than Book wouldn't have that shot looking at the camera. That and she was looking for subconscios(sp?)comments in the crews brains regarding her. That's why Mal and Inara's comments were about each other, because they were so caught up in each other, they didn't notice her(at least that's what I remember, as my Dad is borrowing our set).
I was trying to say that's how I see things as there is many interpretations, based on scripts, actual footage, logical inferrments,ect.
BTW, I didn't see anything in my first post that said I thought that Book wasn't always a sheperd. I agree he was somethin' else before coming to Serenity...

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:12 AM

ZZETTA13

Same eps

Jayne " I once shot a man at 500 yards with a bent scope. Shouldn't that count with the Man upstairs?"

Book " I'm sure it will count for something."

Z

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:51 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

I've always worried about that line.
I thought it was aimed at Jayne, re: Ariel, but I've always wondered if it was his attitude toward River, which would make him some kind of pedophile priest. A dark, nasty alley I don't want to be taken down.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:36 PM

DONCOAT

If River is picking up some stray echo of Book's pre-abbey life, it tells us something about what that life was like. To me, it sounds like something a police detective or prosecutor would say to a suspect during questioning -- ruthless intimidation.

Another possibility would be a wartime prisoner-of-war interrogator. "I don't care what you've done, you're on the other side and that makes you my enemy. Don't expect a speck of mercy."

Both of these fit with his magic ID card in Safe, as well as his reluctance to discuss his past. They would both give him motivation to take the cloth, especially if he finally realized that many of his victims were, in fact, innocent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:03 PM

THEREALME

Hi,

This has been discussed on a number of threads. Check them out for other perspectives.

My thought is that NONE of the characters were aware that River was present. My own opinion is that River was NOT present. Watch that scene again with the idea that River is an unseen ghost wandering through other people's memories. She is capturing thoughts of most peoples' regrets.

I agree that she was looking for some mind that did not belong, and I think she pulled a combination to the gun locker from Jayne's head to get a weapon to defend the ship from this mind that did not belong.

Also, I think that River sees the world like this all the time.

As to Book? He was once something very, very nasty. An Operative? An Alliance interrogator? Then he turned his back on that world and found religion. I completely believe that whatever Book ONCE was, now he is the Shepherd that we see. But the hidden thought that River saw was something from his past. I don't think it was directed at her.

Some folks think that he was on board Serenity as some Alliance or Blue Sun spy. If so, he was an incompetant one, since even Jayne spotted holes in his cover. No, he would have been smoother.

I think this fits the Western myth stereotype of the Retired Gunslinger. The guy who was once hot with a gun but now is tired of killing and wants to turn his life around... but his past keeps causing him trouble.

TheRealMe, Captain of the Sereni-Tree

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:51 PM

IREMIST

I keep hearing "check the past threads" over and over. I spent well over a week reading past threads and CANNOT remember 1/10th of them. The threads need to be organized topically or some housecleanin' needs to be done.

Not to mention, there are a myriad of newbies(myself included) who are just now asking these questions and want to have an active dicussion, not just reading bla bla bla, from 2,3,4, years ago by alot of people who don't even log in anymore....

I ain't sayin' this isn't a great site, But gorram it- I can't find anything!

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:01 PM

JLIN13

im sure wed know the real answer to this question had the series gone on more then just 14 eps

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:28 PM

KAYLEEGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by Iremist:
I keep hearing "check the past threads" over and over. I spent well over a week reading past threads and CANNOT remember 1/10th of them. The threads need to be organized topically or some housecleanin' needs to be done.

Not to mention, there are a myriad of newbies(myself included) who are just now asking these questions and want to have an active dicussion, not just reading bla bla bla, from 2,3,4, years ago by alot of people who don't even log in anymore....

I ain't sayin' this isn't a great site, But gorram it- I can't find anything!

Thanks for bringing that up. I've been feeling the same way -- lost in the labyrinth of past posts!

Anyway, if it's worth discussing, why not start a new discussion?

About the Book quote -- my thought is that it's something he thought or said during his pre-Shepherd days, part of some memory he's been trying to keep buried. Being out in the world again has churned all that up. He broke down into tears in the first episode because he'd suddenly realized that while isolating himself at the abbey gave him time to think and change directions, it didn't actually wash him clean of the past. He stays on the ship because he recognizes himself in Mal and knows they have a lot to teach each other. (Link that up with the deleted scene in the BDM with Mal and the operative at the film's end and you'll get what I mean.)

If I'm gonna dream, I'm gonna dream big.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:07 PM

THEREALME

Sorry. I did not mean that you cannot have a discussion. I just wanted to let you know that there has been a lot said about this, and that you could look for them.

You could go to each forum and do a search for "Inner Thoughts" perhaps. Or scan (with eyes) for titles of threads that make sense.

Unfortunately, it is true that quite a lot of threads have very meaningful titles, such as "A Question" or "What about this?"

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:02 PM

IREMIST

I didn't mean to make you defensive or appolagetic(sp?), I'm just seeing the same thing over and over and i'ts gettin' under my skin, is all....

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:26 PM

THEREALME

Here, I spent a little time with Google and the phrase "I don't give half a hump".

These are just the selections from this site. Some deal with River and some with Book's past.

Sorry in advance for duplicates below.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=5023

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=22252

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=9&t=14866

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=17041

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=16456

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=17280

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=26270

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=23414

http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=5376

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=8973

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=15900

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=3210

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=21928

EDIT: Also, it was said that someone wanted a new discussion rather than having to just read posts on old threads. Well, there is no reason that you can't post to one of these old threads and resurrect it! One of the reasons that things are so disorganized here is that we have ten threads concerning the first scenes of OIS... or a dozen different ones telling us that Serenity appears in Battlestar Galactica.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:42 PM

FASTMOVER

I've often considered the above mentioned theory that Book could be an Alliance spy. Also, Dobson could have also been a plant for Book to beat up and solidify his position aboard the ship. However, I think that with so many opportunities to turn River back over to the Alliance, why didn't he? Why just spy on them when he could take her back?

I have to agree most with the idea that this line was from Book's past as an Alliance official brutalizing someone. Such memories can be hard to let go of and a person will constantly be tormented by them. If you were able to look into my mind you would honestly be frightened by what you might find, and I'm sure this is the case for many people. Sometimes traumatic events from the past trouble you and run through your head a lot, so much so that you find yourself reenacting them and then mentally reacting to them in a state of anger.

I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.

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