Bullet Realism in TV/Film by h0w412d

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Bullet Realism in TV/Film

POSTED BY: H0W412D
UPDATED: Friday, April 6, 2007 20:14
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VIEWED: 3888
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Thursday, April 5, 2007 6:28 PM

i commend Firefly and Serenity for doing right what most other tv shows and movies do wrong, which is that they have sound in space. this may not be much to some, but scientific accuracy means something to me.

but i just noticed that like almost all other tv shows/films, Firefly also has "super momentum" bullets, where the target of a bullet flies back by a lot. in reality, if that happened, the person shooting the bullet would be pushed back by just as much force as they imparted.

im sure there're other instances, but i can only think of 2:
1) serenity pilot, where zoe flies back after being shot by one of patience's men
2) that kid who flew into the way of the shotgun blast intended for jayne in jaynestown had his body turned many degrees by the blast

i guess my actual question is, how concerned was Joss Whedon with scientific realism? he recognized that actions in space have no sound unless in an ion cloud but didn't take the super momentum bullets out.

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 8:23 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

I love the man's work, but he's not a hard science, engineering, technologically hip sorta guy.

Examples abound: one of the most obvious, in OMR, Vera needs oxygen around her to fire. A gunpowder explosion takes place inside a sealed cartridge ,the oxidizer is in there already. No mechanical reason the action needs oxygen or air. Warmth maybe, to keep the lubricants from freezing up, but not air.
And plenty of others...

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Friday, April 6, 2007 1:59 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

Y'know, that bit about Vera needing oxygen sounded plausible to me when I first saw it.

Then I watched an episode of MythBusters, where they were trying to build a Black Powder engine, and they mentioned that gunpowder carries its own oxidizer, so it can ignite in a vacuum.

So disillusioned, but I still love that scene!

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Friday, April 6, 2007 5:18 AM

SHINYED

All B'coats are here because we're all pissed off and confused...how can you have a sci-fi show without:
phase inducers
pattern buffers
tachyon pulses
deflector dishes
starboard nacells
the dreaded inverse tachyon pulse
anti-matter containment
shields
holodecks
doors that open with a whooosh
binary couplings
jeffries tubes
time warp calculations
light speed calculations
quadrants of space
bad aliens
good aliens
invisible aliens
shape shifting aliens
trans-dimensional aliens
time travel paradoxes
plasma venting
plasma relays
photon arrays
wormholes
universal translators
self destruct buttons
decontamination chambers
gravity pressure chambers
etc etc

Firefly doesn't have any of the above...so how can it be a sci-fi show....the nerve!

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Friday, April 6, 2007 5:43 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

hey, ShinyEd- ya fergot

dilithium crystals.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 6:33 AM

FLATTOP

I don't think Vera uses gunpowder ammunition.

I don't recall seeing any shell casings fly about the helmet when Jayne fired (or when any weapon is fired throughout the series or BDM). The only time I saw a recognizable cased cartridge is when Jayne was loading his grenade launcher getting ready to repel Reavers. I remember seeing them load weapons, but never a shell casing flying or unloaded to allow reload.

That implies caseless ammunition. Rules might be different for caseless, although if I were making a caseless round I'd include all of the propellant components in the mix...
Could be it was discovered to be more efficient to use ambient air (high capacity battery of some sort heats the air in a chamber & releases it to fling the projectile). That'd help explain why Mal & Zoey's weapons always make that "charging up" sound when the cock them at dramatically significant moments.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 6:45 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

What about Zoe's Mare's Leg, after she shoots Tracy in "The Message" and the Reaver in the cargo bay in the BDM?
Bouncing cartridges aplenty!

But I distinctly detect a bit of the Babylon 5 PPG effect when the weapons discharge!
http://frogstar.soylentgeek.com/wav/ppg.wav

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Friday, April 6, 2007 6:51 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Ya'll fprget- 500 years in the future. There just HAS to be some type of advance in weapons technology (And, don't foeget, they just came off of a war, and war is the best for breeding new and even more efficient/sadistic ways to kill folks). It's entirely possible that, somewhere along the line, that some folk could have up with a bullet that packs a small enough explosive (Nitro, maybe?) to knock folk down when it hits- offers a big advantage to blow a guy of his feet and stun him for a couple seconds.
Also... it's a T.V. show... don't dig TOO deeply into it, or it loses its magic.

Having fun yet?

-Danny

I wanna take the Bullet,
The one aimed straight for your Heart;
I wanna meet the wolves halfway,
And let them Tear me APART,
But that's not the way they do it here...
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!

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Friday, April 6, 2007 6:52 AM

SICKDUDE

Well, I still give Joss credit for trying.

For me, the hollywood cliche that makes me cringe every time is the punch to the jaw or chop to the neck that makes a person unconscious. Used all the time because it's easy, but it really doesn't happen. That's why I like Jayne's fight in Ariel. It's prolonged, terrifying, and brutal. Those guards don't go down without a fight, ultimately for their own survival.

"I am your father, Luke. Give in to the Dark Side, you nob!" - Doug McKenzie

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Friday, April 6, 2007 7:08 AM

REGINAROADIE

Another action cliche that bugs me a bit is the shattering glass one. Where if a character is thrown through a glass window and the window shatters, that the person doesn't have any deep cuts or severe lacerations.

The only movie to ever portray that realistically was in this movie called A HOME AT THE END OF THE WORLD, where in the early scenes in the 60's the main characters older brother while high walks straight into a glass patio door, smashes it and has a huge piece of glass embedded in his neck with blood just gushing out.

That's why in THE TRAIN JOB, I loved the moment when Mal gets thrown through the window and it turns out to be a hologram.

**************************************************
"Have you ever fired two guns whilst jumping through the air?"
"No."
"Have you ever fired ONE gun whilst jumping through the air?"

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Friday, April 6, 2007 7:42 AM

DONCOAT

We've discussed the Vera-in-a-spacesuit thing before. My pet theory is that she doesn't need the air for combustion, but because there's an interlock designed to prevent the gun from being used in vacuo -- that is, a safety feature. Nothing like that would be needed today, naturally, but when space travel is common it might be desirable.

We're already moving toward more secure interlocks on weapons. It won't be long before we have guns that will only fire if they're being held by their owner (or someone they've been told to allow).

Agreed on the recoil thing. It's such a common thing in TV/movies that I don't really notice it that much anymore, unless it's really over the top. More subtle reactions can be rationalized as the person's nerves and muscles reacting to the impact, or just to being shot at. For example, the kid could be trying to "twist away" from the blast as it hits him.

On the other hand, the "diving through glass" thing always annoys me. I wonder how many kids have tried to copy that, not realizing that Hollywood uses prop glass made of sugar?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Friday, April 6, 2007 10:49 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyEd:
quadrants of space

"Burnham Quadrant."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 11:46 AM

H0W412D

also, in Objects in Space, Mal sends the bounty hunter flying when they're both in spacesuits on top of Serenity. the bounty hunter flies fairly fast away from the ship, and unless Mal had his back to something or his feet stepped in something, he should've flown back too. scene was kinda dark. dunno if he was.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 12:07 PM

MARINA

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
We've discussed the Vera-in-a-spacesuit thing before.

Didn't Joss & Co. address this, saying they actually consulted someone about it and THOUGHT they were being accurate in their description but turned out to be misinformed? I'm almost certain I remember that.

Joss also talks on the movie commentary about wanting to give little science tidbits to justify things but was not particularly concerned with their legitimacy - i.e. if it sounded plausible to the audience then he didn't really mind if it was true or not.

Don't make faces.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 12:35 PM

WHODIED

If air is needed to fire Vera, wouldn't that first shot render her inoperable? Jayne gets off four or five rounds.

--WhoDied

_______________________

You have to do it. I have no breath.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 2:37 PM

DECAF

Quote:
Originally posted by h0w412d:
also, in Objects in Space, Mal sends the bounty hunter flying when they're both in spacesuits on top of Serenity. the bounty hunter flies fairly fast away from the ship, and unless Mal had his back to something or his feet stepped in something, he should've flown back too. scene was kinda dark. dunno if he was.

If you watch Mal's motion you can see that he is pushing up and away against Early. That means a large amount of the force would be directed towards keeping Mal attached to the ship (presumably through magnetic boots). Still, I agree it is not generally a safe thing to do to try to push someone off a spaceship.

_________________________________
"The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just."
- Abraham Lincoln

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Friday, April 6, 2007 4:31 PM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Decaf:
it is not generally a safe thing to do to try to push someone off a spaceship.

OTOH, this is Malcolm "Ill-Conceived-Plan" Reynolds we're talking about.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 5:00 PM

REVDEADCORPSE

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoDied:
If air is needed to fire Vera, wouldn't that first shot render her inoperable? Jayne gets off four or five rounds.

--WhoDied

_______________________

You have to do it. I have no breath.

Air would have been leaking out of the bullet holes, but still present while Jayne was firing. A suit would hold quite a bit of air without a human body in it.

I'm on board with the "safety" feature on Vera hypothesis. Subjecting a metal and plastic gun to 3 degrees Kelvin, then hit it with combustion pressures in the 60k-70kpsi range seems like a good way to shatter a barrel and shred your spacesuit.

Qui Desiridat Pacem, Preparet Bellum
[img]

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Friday, April 6, 2007 5:15 PM

H0W412D

also in Object of Space, when early was flying to his ship, he knocks it a bit, and the ship is set in slow motion. but the next time we see it it's moving very quickly away from serenity.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 5:34 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by marina:
Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
We've discussed the Vera-in-a-spacesuit thing before.

Didn't Joss & Co. address this, saying they actually consulted someone about it and THOUGHT they were being accurate in their description but turned out to be misinformed? I'm almost certain I remember that.

I remember this too but I don't remember where it was...

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Friday, April 6, 2007 7:08 PM

MOOSE

It was on one of the F*X site's webvids.
http://www.foxhome.com/firefly/main.html

Click on Serenity, then go to media, then click on videos. I think the Joss interview is in there (my dial-up butt can't run the vids)...

Anyone know if they're online somewhere in a downloadable form?

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Friday, April 6, 2007 8:14 PM

REGINAROADIE

Since we're talking about spacesuits, what about the actual suits on the show that the characters used in the pilot, "Bushwacked", "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and "Objects in Space".

While I admit that 500 years and change from now that even poor basic technology that our crew has would far outstrip even the most advanced tech that we have now, it seems like a stretch to me that the suits they wore were the equivalent of overalls with a helmet they could fasten on. That they aren't the think, insulated, multi-component suits that NASA astronauts wear today out in space.

Of course for convenience of plot they couldn't have the NASA suits if they were trying to hide or make a getaway. But it was just that minor detail of turning a spacewalk into a somewhat casual stroll that seemed a bit off.

**************************************************
"Have you ever fired two guns whilst jumping through the air?"
"No."
"Have you ever fired ONE gun whilst jumping through the air?"

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