RE: by Lance

The explanation for Wash's demise was short sighted. Besides a similar effect could have been had by having him loose an arm or leg. That would have shown vulnerability quite adequately without killing the best character. That is, the only completely normal, well adjusted, average guy in the Firefly/Serenity world. All the rest, except maybe Zoe, had problems of one kind or another. But now of course, she's messed up too. You all know the what I mean, Mal is the leader be he's probably got the most scambled brains of them all. Wash was all of us. Joss killed us when he killed Wash.

Wash Lives!

-------
If you are looking for perfect safety, you will do well to sit on a fence and watch the birds; but if you really wish to learn, you must mount a machine and become acquainted with its tricks by actual trial. - Wilbur Wright

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:04 AM

"No, Joss! You can't be in charge of the world you created! You must bow the demands of the fans! Do things our way, damn you!"

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:11 AM

Exactly. Whatever works. Follow the money, always follow the money.

Again, Joss killed us when he killed Wash. In fact he may have even killed himself.

-------
If you are looking for perfect safety, you will do well to sit on a fence and watch the birds; but if you really wish to learn, you must mount a machine and become acquainted with its tricks by actual trial. - Wilbur Wright

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:15 AM

"Follow the money" might actually mean something if Joss thought that sequels and/or more TV was dependent on his bringing Wash back. But it isn't. It's dependent on whether Fox or Universal decide it's in their financial interest to get it done. So "following the money" won't lead you to Browncoats--it'll take you straight to Fox or Universal. And I don't think they give a damn whether Wash comes back from the dead or not. I'm pretty sure the Browncoats will turn up for a sequel whether or not Joss miraculously resurrects Wash. It's just asinine to demand that he do things our way. It's his 'verse. We just get to visit it. But have fun with the whining.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:16 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Cool.
One question, though. Why do you have a link to your website on the exact same site?

Having fun yet?

-Danny

I wanna take the Bullet,
The one aimed straight for your Heart;
I wanna meet the wolves halfway,
And let them Tear me APART,
But that's not the way they do it here...
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lance:
Again, Joss killed us when he killed Wash. In fact he may have even killed himself.

You, Lance. He killed you. Plenty of Browncoats who've grieved over Wash and come to terms with it. Don't generalize yourself onto others.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:22 AM

To say that none of them care about money is ridiculous. They all do, it's their job, including Joss. And as in any business the customer is always right. The customer dictates what you sell and how.

If they gave away movie tickets or DVD's for free I would agree, but they don't.

-------
If you are looking for perfect safety, you will do well to sit on a fence and watch the birds; but if you really wish to learn, you must mount a machine and become acquainted with its tricks by actual trial. - Wilbur Wright

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:28 AM

Never mind--sorry

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:37 AM

But forget the money part. I'm really just talking characters and what I feel about them. At least to me what I feel is important.

I'm a latecomer to this story, not like you veterans. But I waited to watch the Serenity DVD until after I had gone through the Firefly episodes five times, including a round with the commentaries. After I saw Serenity last night I was sick, I wished I had never seen it and stayed with only the series. I felt horrible, and I hate it when that happens. I certainly don't purposely pay money for that experience.

It all comes down to this, people usually identify with a certain character in a story, in this case since most of us are normal average types, it would be the character most similar to us, the regular guy.

So again my statement: Joss killed us when he killed Wash.

Of course, I am a completely unsuccessful writer, so what do I know?

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:41 AM

Yeah...sorry about the snark, Lance. I've been grouchy all day, and I let that get the better of me. I apologize.

I understand about the grief and heartache. Wash was my favorite character, and I was stunned when he died. I gasped and clapped my hand over my mouth when it happened, and it stayed there the whole rest of the movie (and for a few minutes afterward). I was stunned, but not devastated--it took me time to adjust, but that's normal, I think. Cinematically, I understand why Joss did it, but that doesn't make me feel better. After a spell, though, I came to grips with it. Give it time, Lance--you might, too. In the end, I think moving on make the 'verse a richer place; people die there, just like IRL, and we have to grieve for them and move along.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:43 AM

Quote:
Again, Joss killed us when he killed Wash. In fact he may have even killed himself.

Yes, which is why the DVD sales have been so huge that they are putting out a special edition. Because the fans simply up and abandoned Joss forever and ever. Your analysis is spot on.

-----

Portland's Charity 'Serenity' Screenings
JUNE 22 & 23 @ the HOLLYWOOD THEATRE
Benefitting Equality Now and the Women's Film Initiative
http://serenitynow.pdxbrowncoats.com/

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by theonetruebix: Yes, which is why the DVD sales have been so huge that they are putting out a special edition. Because the fans simply up and abandoned Joss forever and ever. Your analysis is spot on.

I didn't mean it that way. Most writers put a character in a story that is themselves, or at least what they would like to be. I was theorizing that Wash was Joss in this story line. So maybe when he killed Wash he killed himself (in the story). Just as he killed me in this story. That's all I was saying.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:03 AM

Quote:
the same effect could have been had by having him loose and arm or leg

This, of course, is hogwash. A maiming isn't a death in any way that could be considered a dramatic equivalency.

Why do I feel like I'm reliving the Save Wash debacle all over again (except that at least we're not talking about a campaign that by its very nature spoils the movie for everyone else this time.)

-----

Portland's Charity 'Serenity' Screenings
JUNE 22 & 23 @ the HOLLYWOOD THEATRE
Benefitting Equality Now and the Women's Film Initiative
http://serenitynow.pdxbrowncoats.com/

PS: Send Me To Serenity LA
http://www.dropcash.com/campaign/theonetruebix/send_me_to_serenity_la/

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:08 AM

You're right about the spoiler part, I should have put a warning in the subject. I'll try to fix that if I can.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:33 AM

Quote:
This, of course, is hogwash. A maiming isn't a death in any way that could be considered a dramatic equivalency.

Yes you're right people have arms and legs ripped off everyday, what's the big deal? Except say if it's your best friends leg or you brothers leg, that is someone you care about, you might be afraid that they could die from such a thing, especially under combat conditions. You might be very upset. I don't know myself, I don't have any siblings or such friends, but I think if I did and I saw them get their leg ripped off and bleed profusely, that I might be afraid, and shocked. In the case of this story I might also see a greater opportunity for Zoe to show emotion through prolonged fear rather than the instant death. I just say'n.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:37 AM

I didn't say maiming was nothing. I said it wasn't the dramatic equivalent.

Anyway, the point is, ultimately, you don't want Joss to have told the story he wanted to tell.

That's fine. But don't run around saying "I"m a writer and I understand what you don't" while you in the same breath disrespect Joss' writing craft as being something we can influence because it's about money not art.

Somehow I don't think accusing Joss of being someone who will cave to the influence of money is going to win you very many supporters amongst his fans.

-----

Portland's Charity 'Serenity' Screenings
JUNE 22 & 23 @ the HOLLYWOOD THEATRE
Benefitting Equality Now and the Women's Film Initiative
http://serenitynow.pdxbrowncoats.com/

PS: Send Me To Serenity LA
http://www.dropcash.com/campaign/theonetruebix/send_me_to_serenity_la/

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 10:05 AM

Well I guess I wasn't looking for supporters. The website was kind of an experiment, I never expected it to be anything more than a statement really. Maybe I didn't explain that statement as well as I should have. Obviously there's much more depth above.

Also, maybe I shouldn't have emphasized the money aspect as I did, but I think it's too often disregarded. Don't forget that Joss is a multimillionaire, and I would not be surprised if some of the actors are the same after making the movie. Money can sometimes have strange influences. An example would be some famous writers, suddenly their novels bloat to a thousand pages when they should probably be half that long, or even less. In fact it is the loss of the need for money that can let art run wild. I'm not saying that has happened in this case, but it should be kept in mind.

In the end this is probably just a waste of time for me. I should be off reading a book or trying to write another short story, not sitting here all afternoon crying over a beloved character that's not even mine. I should leave it at that.

I think I'll set the Firefly theme to replay for the rest of the day.

Thanks to all for reading.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lance:

Also, maybe I shouldn't have emphasized the money aspect as I did, but I think it's too often disregarded. Don't forget that Joss is a multimillionaire, and I would not be surprised if some of the actors are the same after making the movie. Money can sometimes have strange influences.

I'm not (!) attacking you, but I do want to say - if you feel that way about the actors (or if you simply have suspicions you want to verify) you should check out the MySpace pages (for those who have them) and the stories from Flan B and all the other tidbits floating around both here and at Whedonesque to get a feel for how accessible and down to earth these guys still are. At the very least it might cheer you up a little.

:)

Don't make faces.

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Monday, April 2, 2007 7:30 AM

Just one more thing. (Note: Okay, edited this entry. It was nothing untoward, just wrong headed. I'm sorry about that.)

I went back to the forum archives and found that there were a lot of people who agreed with the problems I had with the movie. They even go further than just talking about Wash. I understand what was stated back then. One revelation was that the movie characters and story were changed from the series to sell more tickets. That sounds to me like money had some influence on the movie.

There are hundreds of pages in these threads and I have only read the first of them. They say it better than I did. If some have rationalized it over time, then you should go back and read what was said by others on first blush. If after that you still want to believe that Serenity is great, that's your prerogative. I can't.

I agree with Fireflygal that there is enough death and heartache in real life without having more of it dumped on us. Joss made us love the characters, but he also hurt us, or me at least.

http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=12689

I doubt that I will ever watch the Serenity DVD again, and right now I think I will not see the other Serenity DVD's in the future. I'll stick with Firefly and will see it many more times I hope. But I refuse to acknowledge that Serenity had anything to do with Firefly and will attempt to block it out of my mind as an aberration or a bad dream

The other DVD I already had and intended to watch next was Done the Impossible. Now I'm not sure I want to see that if it's only a build up of Serenity.

Some people may think it's going too far to reject the whole movie. I think Joss rejected a big part of the heart of Firefly, and that was cruel. The only thing that could have been worse is if he had killed Kaylee too, then there would have been no heart left at all.

I really didn't intend to write anything else on this thread after yesterday. I thought I was the only one who cared about this stuff. There were others back in Fall 2005, but they could have changed their minds since that time.

I guess I'm definitely not much of a Browncoat after this, but then I was never much into socializing anyway. Much as I would like to dress up as Wash, I think the spike and blood would just be too cumbersome and messy.

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Monday, April 2, 2007 10:48 AM

ZEEK

You're totally welcome to state your opinion here. Just know that it's not everyone else's opinion as well.

There were plenty of people who cried out to save Wash after first seeing the movie. There were people who cried in theaters. There were also people who loved the movie. I was one of the latter. I waked out of the theater knowing that it was the biggest rush I'd ever experienced from a movie. Killing Wash was a big part of that. It kept me on the edge of my seat through the end of the movie. I really thought that Kaylee, Simon, Zoe, Mal and River were all on the brink of death at the end. Thoughts of "would Joss really kill them all...maybe he would" ran through my head.

Just because I didn't want Wash to die doesn't mean it was the wrong decision. It still made for a great movie.

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Monday, April 2, 2007 11:17 AM

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Monday, April 2, 2007 11:36 AM

@Lance:

Some of us that didn't like the movie (or most of it) are still here; I'm one of them. Then again, most of the people that were here pre-BDM are no longer here. The climate has certainly changed. For instance, I rarely participate in FF/S discussions because the tone has pretty much gotten shrill.

But, what you must understand is that most of us just keep our mouths shut when stuff like this comes up again. Why? Because we are usually chastised for our opinion. The discussion degrades to something not even remotely fruitful.

That being said, the "mob" isn't the only side that becomes shrill. i.e. your outburst was hardly productive. With this in mind, I'd suggest to make your communications more palatable. Otherwise, even people who support your stance (or content thereof) won't stand buy you.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 10:13 AM

Actually I toned that last entry down quite a bit, even after I said I wouldn't. Maybe I went a little too far in saying things best left unsaid, but I didn't think it was shrill by any means. At least I didn't intend it that way. I was just annoyed with the situation and still am.

Tell me the worst parts and I'll edit it some more. Not that it makes any difference to anyone. Talking about it is pretty much a waste of time I know. It's like all forms of politics I guess, but in this case we don't get a vote, or even a say.

I love Firefly but not Serenity. Firefly is wonderful and inspiring. It makes me want to sit down and create my own world and stories. I've done a little of that but not near enough.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 10:53 AM

Okay I edited the "One more thing" entry above. I probably should have done that in the first place. But I didn't delete the criticisms of the movie or the final, though sad attempt at humor.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 11:19 AM

ZEEK

Well at least the way you feel should make you appreciate how great of an artist Joss really is. I mean he created a fictional character that became so close to you that you actually go through the real life grieving process when the character is killed. That's pretty impressive don't you think?

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Well at least the way you feel should make you appreciate how great of an artist Joss really is. I mean he created a fictional character that became so close to you that you actually go through the real life grieving process when the character is killed. That's pretty impressive don't you think?

I tend to agree with that - with today's audiences (let me quantify that by saying I'm not of an "oh the good old days" persuasion, but social/political/intellectual climates do change over time) ... so, with today's audience who are, by most accounts, both fairly desensitized to surprises and well versed in cinematic formula (whether they realize it or not), how do you surprise them? How do you keep an audience who, for the past 90 minutes, thought they knew (or had a vague idea) of what would happen and how it would be wrapped up (e.g. River comes to terms with her issues (which they expect to be revealed) and relationships are repaired (Mal/Inara and Simon/Kaylee jump instantly to mind)) glued to the screen for the final climactic scene?

You break the mold. You do something you don't have "permission" to do. You make the viewers question their assumptions and expectations.

That said, I also tend to agree that Wash, beyond being comic, was a really important character for the dynamic of the show and the movie - not only do a lot of people identify with him as the "most normal," but he was also level-headed, the voice of reason if you will. If it had been MY movie (in my dreams) I probably would have killed off someone else. BUT the fact remains that Joss' vision, i.e. what he wanted to accomplish with Firefly, was cut short, and so while it may not have been palatable to lose Wash so soon, it was probably an essential part of the larger act we never got to see.

Don't make faces.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:00 PM

Hear I go again. I just read some more of the entries on the linked thread from above.

http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=12689

I just find it incredible the unquestioning devotion people have for Joss Whedon. It seems like it wouldn't matter what he did to a story, they would just accept it.

I've read quite a few great stories where no one dies. So where the idea comes from that if no one dies it doesn't "ring true," I don't know. It's not true, it's made up, anything can happen including a happy ending. If we really love the characters and not just the temporary visceral experience, then they should live. Just as we want the people we live with in real life to live. I would hope no one wants to see one of there friends or a family members die just so that they can experience the agony of lose. That would be ridiculous and sick. I think that wanting or easily accepting it happening to a beloved character, just for shock value is also ridiculous.

This brings me to another idea. Human beings are "built" to believe stories. That's all we had in the beginning, the story teller telling legends around a fire. This was how information and experience was passed on. The ability to picture these things in our minds and seem to experience them is what makes us able to read a book or watch a movie and be pulled in without even realizing it. But I think these abilities should not be toyed with by the story teller. We put our trust in them and they should respect that and not use that trust to harm us emotionally.

I think I'm going to go fly my airplane for a while and try to forget about this stuff.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:25 PM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Lance:
But I think these abilities should not be toyed with by the story teller. We put our trust in them and they should respect that and not use that trust to harm us emotionally.

Different strokes for different folks. You might be at a disadvantage from never being a buffy/angel fan. For those of us who followed Joss through those shows and right on to Firefly/Serenity we all knew what Joss was capable off. Major characters were never safe in those shows. We came into Firefly/Serenity knowing that Joss will likely kill the characters we've grown to love. I personally like his style of storytelling. Not everything is a happy ending. I like never knowing what's coming next and Joss is an expert at that.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:43 PM

Quote:
You might be at a disadvantage from never being a buffy/angel fan. For those of us who followed Joss through those shows and right on to Firefly/Serenity we all knew what Joss was capable off. Major characters were never safe in those shows. We came into Firefly/Serenity knowing that Joss will likely kill the characters we've grown to love.

That makes some sense. I guess I'm lucky he didn't get that far in the Firefly series before it was cancelled. It didn't seem like he was so bloodthirsty in those fourteen episodes.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 1:07 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Lance:
I've read quite a few great stories where no one dies. So where the idea comes from that if no one dies it doesn't "ring true," I don't know. It's not true, it's made up, anything can happen including a happy ending. If we really love the characters and not just the temporary visceral experience, then they should live. Just as we want the people we live with in real life to live. I would hope no one wants to see one of there friends or a family members die just so that they can experience the agony of lose. That would be ridiculous and sick. I think that wanting or easily accepting it happening to a beloved character, just for shock value is also ridiculous.

Hi, Lance. I very rarely jump in to threads like this, as I am not sure there is anything that will relieve your feeling of betrayal. I'm sorry for that, because pain is bad.

But at this point, I have to put in my two credits....
One of the things that drew me to and kept me there about Joss' writing on Firefly was how real the characters felt to me. I fell in love with Mal, fully. I wanted to be Zoe, brave and true. I loved Wash and wanted to hug him. Simon brought out the mother in me and I wanted to tell him you're doing the right thing. Kaylee made me happy and I wanted to take her shopping. River broke my heart and I cried often for her. Inara fascinated me and I wondered what her secret was and why she didn't just tell Mal she wanted him. Book made me feel safe for them all...somehow. Jayne.... well, Jayne.

If the characters felt real to me... then I had to give Joss credit for this.

I've read great stories where folks do die.
Most great stories have folks in them that die. Dying is our greatest sorrow, our greatest gift- if we die for someone else to live, dying is our greatest challenge. Just as living defines us, dying does as well. Dying happens in real life. Dying happens in the 'Verse. It follows that it should.

Quote:

This brings me to another idea. Human beings are "built" to believe stories. That's all we had in the beginning, the story teller telling legends around a fire. This was how information and experience was passed on. The ability to picture these things in our minds and seem to experience them is what makes us able to read a book or watch a movie and be pulled in without even realizing it. But I think these abilities should not be toyed with by the story teller. We put our trust in them and they should respect that and not use that trust to harm us emotionally.

I agree with you, storytelling is in our blood. In my minds eye I can picture early man and men after who told stories around the fire. They contain bravery, fighting, war, love, sacrifice, pain, leadership in the face of invincible odds and death. Since we began telling stories our tales have included death. Death of the brave warrior who bags the bison. Death of the brave warrior who fights to the death to save his village. Death of the maiden who dies bravely for her people. Death of .... shall I go on? I could list titles, but I don't think I need to. Life is full of death. Our stories are too.

Storytellers owe me ( since I can only speak for myself) nothing but their story. I'm grateful for them. I love stories and the ones containing death teach me something about the honor with which I wish to die.

From here to the eyes and the ears of the 'Verse!
http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps/index.htm

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 1:16 PM

Quote:
Storytellers owe me ( since I can only speak for myself) nothing but their story. I'm grateful for them.

Yes. Just so.

-----

Portland's Charity 'Serenity' Screenings
JUNE 22 & 23 @ the HOLLYWOOD THEATRE
Benefitting Equality Now and the Women's Film Initiative
http://serenitynow.pdxbrowncoats.com/

PS: Send Me To Serenity LA
http://www.dropcash.com/campaign/theonetruebix/send_me_to_serenity_la/

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 1:30 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Lance, as you know by now you are not alone in some of your feelings about Serenity. I first saw it at one of the pre-release screenings on May 5, '05, and there was about a week afterwards where I wasn't sure I even wanted to watch Firefly again, much less the movie. But that feeling passed.

Since then, I have watched the movie at least twelve more times, and the series three more times complete. Firefly is still the best television show ever created, in my not so humble opinion, and even though I am not one of those who consider Serenity the best film ever, it is the best one I've seen in this decade at least.

Give it some time, think about it some more, let us know in a week or two if you still feel the same way.

Keep flying.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 2:21 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA

Since when was Joss ((Or any of the cast)) a multimillionaire? Yes he's been successful, but not necessarily commercially so. Buffy and Angel were a boon to him, but Serenity hasn't made as much as it will, neither did Firefly ((Like it had a chance)). As far as the story issue here, Joss gave him a good death. Yes, I felt cheated when he died, but I think it's like Mal at Serenity valley. Life goes on. Wash may yet come back, as on this forum there've been some really interesting and workable methods for his ressurection. And no offense to anyone here, but I think Joss is a better storyteller than all of us. He'll do what he'll do, whether you like it or not is your bag. But as I say above, it was a good death. He gave them all a chance, and without him, they'd never have made it. His sacrifice saved his crew, and it gave Miranda and all her people's deaths meaning. Though we may not like a portion of a story, I think the real question is, did you like the film as a piece of work, or no?

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 2:42 PM

SAVEWASH

Now I am learning about scary.

Quote:
Originally posted by theonetruebix:

Why do I feel like I'm reliving the Save Wash debacle all over again

Wow, I'm a debacle now? Nobody told me!

(Ironically, despite my alias and the fact that I was crushed when Wash died in the movie, I agree with those who respect the writer's work. It's his/her story and no one else has the right to dictate how it goes. If you want a certain story, please feel free to tell it yourself, but don't tell anyone else how theirs should be written. You don't have to like the result, of course, but those writers who aren't hacks deserve latitude. [end of speech])

"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 2:48 PM

JONGSSTRAW

I don't fully grasp the immensity of this topic...in terms of the emotions, well yes of course. But this t'aint the Elvis Lives crowd, maybe the Eddie Lives crowd. Elvis is dead...witnessed, photographed, autopsied, etc etc etc ...ok, yes ..maybe Arnold the Eraser "fixed" it all, but it's still deranged fringe non-thinking. Eddie...well he actually did live, 'cause he drove off a bridge & nobody ever saw him for 20+ years...But Wash is like Elvis...tragically dead!. Joss wanted it, Joss wrote it, and most importantly Alan supported it. I don't know 'bout the rest of the BDH's feelings 'cept Nathan's from the DVD extras..he was cool with it too....maybe some of you here know how the others felt? And of course, there's the universal love, respect, and admiration for Joss Whedon by all the 'coats, and as they say, don't f*k with love....so all I can say to those stuck on Wash's fate...snap out of it!

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 8:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by marina:

...
how do you surprise them? How do you keep an audience who, for the past 90 minutes, thought they knew (or had a vague idea) of what would happen and how it would be wrapped up (e.g. River comes to terms with her issues (which they expect to be revealed) and relationships are repaired (Mal/Inara and Simon/Kaylee jump instantly to mind)) glued to the screen for the final climactic scene?

You break the mold. You do something you don't have "permission" to do. You make the viewers question their assumptions and expectations.

Well, one could "break the mold" by (using your examples):

- _not_ having River come to terms with issues
- _not_ having Mal and Inara "make up"
- _not_ having Simon and Kaylee "get together"

But, doing it in a Joss-y way.

Basically, leave it all up in the air. I know that audiences in North America aren't used to this, but it was an option. One that would have been just as surprising as what he did do.

Of course, this would have changed the ending and events leading up to it. But, I for one would rather have Joss doing something different. Because we all have to admit, at least to ourselves, that Joss' ability to kill that main character had already surfaced before that. An ability that we know he liked doing.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 8:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

Different strokes for different folks. You might be at a disadvantage from never being a buffy/angel fan. For those of us who followed Joss through those shows and right on to Firefly/Serenity we all knew what Joss was capable off. Major characters were never safe in those shows. We came into Firefly/Serenity knowing that Joss will likely kill the characters we've grown to love. I personally like his style of storytelling. Not everything is a happy ending. I like never knowing what's coming next and Joss is an expert at that.

Yah, I watched Buffy from day one. Never took to Angel though. The wife is making me watch Angel in its entirety and my god. So... very... painful. But, I digress.

Your point only lives until we start to expect Joss to kill off characters. Which, as it happens, is the case. So, at this point, doing so must come at an advantage well beyond shock value. Which, isn't the case here. Also, not a happy ending does not necessarily mean killing off someone. Personally, I find that a *very* cheap way to do it.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 8:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:

His sacrifice saved his crew, and it gave Miranda and all her people's deaths meaning.

What movie did you watch? Wash's death didn't save the crew. He was killed *after* his role in "saving" them i.e. he did _not_ die in an act to save people, he died *after* an act that saved people. These are two *very* different things.

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:

did you like the film as a piece of work, or no?

As an action movie it was good. As a Firefly movie it was... not.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SAVEWASH:

(Ironically, despite my alias and the fact that I was crushed when Wash died in the movie, I agree with those who respect the writer's work. It's his/her story and no one else has the right to dictate how it goes. If you want a certain story, please feel free to tell it yourself, but don't tell anyone else how theirs should be written. You don't have to like the result, of course, but those writers who aren't hacks deserve latitude. [end of speech])

I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one as this only comes into play when one writes for oneself. But, when one writes for others, then one must act accordingly.

A quote from Joss from the Serenity DVD:

"""
... in the DVD sales, the booths at the Cons run by fans, the websites, and the fundraisers. All the work the fans have done have helped make this movie. It is, in an unprecedented sense, your movie.
"""

So Joss, by his own words, has admitted that this movie was done b/c of significant fan involvement. Yet, he turns around after our very hard work to thank us by *killing* /two/ characters. IMO, this is a slap in the face, pretty much "biting the hand that feeds."

And even when it comes to how they died, well Wash's death just didn't make sense.

Book sure (though I still irritated about that). His town got swarmed by Alliance bend on killing them. Hard to survive that kind of thing. The rational behind the attack even made sense.

But, Wash. That was just stupid. I'm sorry, but if you're running for your life from Reavers, you're not going to sit there grinning like a dumbass and repeat some dumbass phrase, more calm cool and collected than those sitting right beside you who both survived Serenity Valley (i.e. *very* battle hardened).

And that weapon that killed him! I mean come on. Shooting giant spears!?!? Yah sure, the glass that'll protect them from the vacuum of space, space garbage, etc, will buckle like tin foil from a slow moving object. Sure.

At any rate, we've probably all heard the above before whether you agree or not. Just getting fired up as I expected the typical Joss dialogue, good writing in general, etc from Serenity and I didn't get it (IMO). Bah, I'm done rehashing the past again.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 5:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Because we all have to admit, at least to ourselves, that Joss' ability to kill that main character had already surfaced before that. An ability that we know he liked doing.

I didn't know! I've never watched Buffy or Angel, and I would argue that assuming his audience is familiar with his style would put Joss and his creations at a disadvantage. There are still some people (lots!) who haven't been exposed to his techniques, and they're the ones who need to be grabbed/moved. The loyal fans will stick around regardless ;)

Don't make faces.

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 8:04 AM

GORRAMGIRL

You know, this has been fascinating to read. First, as a writer (and I've even published, though strictly small stuff as of yet), there is the perpetual debate for whom the author "should" write. Now, we can write for the masses, i.e. Robert Jordan (no offense to those who like his work), or they can write to their hearts (H. G. Wells).

Pick any listing of the top 50 Greatest Books of this or the last century, and in every one of them, tragedy strikes.

That doesn't mean that those same stories made much money until after the author's deaths (often the case) but in every case I know of, the audience has acknowledged that the author had the right to write what they choose.

Even in popular fiction, take Harry Potter. The books rose in an entirely unprecedented fashion to a fame that authors will be hard-pressed to match or exceed. Rowlings is having a hard time matching herself. It's taking longer and longer to get the books out, because she had to struggle to please the audience--I don't envy her. The stories are suffering as a result (IMHO).

Yet, through everything Firefly, I never got the sense that Whedon catered to anyone. Certainly there would be a never-ending debate of who we'd pick to die. Frankly, Wash and Zoe are my favorites and I understand completely why he did it.

Yes, Wash sat there and made his "Watch me soar" line. We were buying it right until the moment the ballistae hit. So, it isn't that the scene was "silly" we just didn't like the end result.

Oh, and having been in the Air Force and seen a bit of combat...people do the DUMBEST stuff imaginable...and it makes perfect sense. And, good people do die. It's what makes the tragedy more potent.

It's Whedon's story. I watch what he does. Sometimes I agree with it, sometimes I don't. But he never fails to get a reaction from me. That's the mark of an outstanding storyteller, and one who does NOT pander for the masses. Otherwise, firefly would be like Trek, where everyone is healed and happy at the end of every episode.

Also,he ain't making nearly as much money as you are fantasizing about and personally, I didn't die. Frankly, if this has killed you, then you are a touch more fragile than I think you want to portray.

"They don't like it when you shoot them. I figured that out myself." ---Mal (War Stories)

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 8:46 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

If anyone thinks they could have told a better Serenity by doing things differently, then I challenge them to write it. Not just little changes, like Mal's suspenders or Kaylee and Simon's sudden bedding, but (for example) killing Inara, or not killing anyone, or having a completely different bad guy.

Take the frustration over Wash's death and channel that into a story, instead of hanging around this thread and its negative energy.

Pretty please?

Quote:
Originally posted by gorramgirl:
Even in popular fiction, take Harry Potter. The books rose in an entirely unprecedented fashion to a fame that authors will be hard-pressed to match or exceed. Rowlings is having a hard time matching herself. It's taking longer and longer to get the books out, because she had to struggle to please the audience--I don't envy her. The stories are suffering as a result (IMHO).

It's not just you. The first one was the best.

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 8:48 AM

WHODIED

I hate it, but I have to laugh at Wash's death.

Come on, a wooden stake through the heart? sheesh!

--WhoDied
_______________________

You used to have fire in your heart.
Now all you got in there is that big honkin' sword. How's that feel, champ?

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Friday, April 6, 2007 12:03 PM