Where's the body armor? by shambleau

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Where's the body armor?

POSTED BY: SHAMBLEAU
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 17:51
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VIEWED: 8220
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Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:04 AM

In Serenity, Zoe wears some kind of ultralight body armor, which saves her life. We haven't seen or heard of it since. Why didn't we see anybody putting on body armor in War Stories, for instance? (Although maybe Jayne did. He looked like he got hit in the fire-fight, but was fine later.)

shambleau

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:06 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Not sure why it has not been mentioned since Shambleau, but I am sure they still have it, at least Zoe does.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:08 AM

KINGOFKOINS

I'm fairly certain that Zoe wore it in War Stories.

--------------------------------
It's sickening how comforting the privacy of the mind can be.
"Bible's broken; contradictions, false logistics. Doesn't make sense." - River
http://stripe.filetap.com

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 1:33 PM

SHINY

Zoe wore it in War Stories. Jayne doesn't have any because he's expendable (ZOE: 'she hasn't hurt anybody...not anyone we can't spare, I mean') and Mal's just too damn pretty to die, so he don't need it. ;)

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 1:48 PM

LJOSALF

I wondered about the hit that Jayne took in War Stories, as well, but concluded that the weapon he was hit with was likely similar to the Alliance stun gun from Ariel and that he only took a glancing blow.

Also, doesn't anybody else in the 'verse have this armor? The folks that the crew shoot at don't seem to, not even Niska's people, but then the only Fed they've shot was Dobson and he took it in the head. Maybe concealable armor is too expensive for the average Joe or crook but provided to certain Alliance forces. I suppose Zoe might have liberated it....However, contemplating Zoe buying the armor on the black market brings to mind a question I had about Mal's finances: Serenity can't have been all that cheap, working or not. Where did Mal get the scratch to buy her?

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:21 PM

CYBERSNARK

Or maybe Zoe's armour is "home-made."

I kinda got the feeling Mal sank everything he had into Serenity. Life savings, soldiery pay, heck, maybe he had a well-off relative who just died.

Or maybe he pulled a Han Solo and won his choice of ship in a card game.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 4:01 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by ljosalf:
Also, doesn't anybody else in the 'verse have this armor? The folks that the crew shoot at don't seem to

Early wore body armor. Probably one of the reasons River decided she had to trick him off the ship rather than try to get the crew into a firefight with him.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:07 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Zoe's body armor is a bit of a mystery. It doesn't even cover her sternum.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:23 PM

STEVE580

Or maybe, after taking one direct hit, the armour just becomes unuseable.

...what? You never know. Maybe they just have shitty armour in the future.

As for the ship, maybe he's still making payments on it. Or was for a while, anyways. I guess if he and Zoe sold all their worldly possesions...but then, the ship would be at least partly Zoe's, right? And I've never gotten that feeling. So, I wonder what the deal is with that.
-Steve

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Friday, March 19, 2004 2:17 AM

LJOSALF

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Early wore body armor.

But Early's armor was implied to be in his spacesuit not concealed on his person....Much like the Purple Belly (Starship Troopers) armor that we see in Train Job and Bushwhacked. That's not to say that Early wouldn't have concealable armor in his repertoire and he certainly would be able to afford it, black market or not.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Friday, March 19, 2004 2:24 AM

HOTPOINT

Slightly Off-Topic but Body Armour should be both cheap and widely available in the future since the easiest type would be woven monomolecular fibre which is certainly far less than 500 years away

Wouldn't do much for impact but it would stop low-velocity penetration pretty easily. It would be practically untearable

You could introduce the same stuff to laminate spaceship hulls to make them very resistant to meteorites (or projectile weapons for that matter)

Just a thought.

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, March 19, 2004 2:58 AM

KALIMEERI

I'd always thought Mal probably had some money put away, soldier pay that nobody could spend because there was nowhere to shop and no time anyway. It might not have been enough, though. There was some time lapse between the end of the war and his buying the ship, so either he didn't get the idea right away or he was busy engaging in gambling or "petty" thievery to get the rest. I get the feeling that he bought the ship, but Zoe might have contributed to getting her running and hiring the crew once Mal convinced her. As in "WE have a genius mechanic, it's about time we hired somebody, etc." So maybe it isn't so much of a partnership as a cooperative venture that she went along with because she didn't have family except for Mal.

Jen dao mei.

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Friday, March 19, 2004 3:02 AM

DAVEY

didnt mals mother own a ranch? this could be where he got the money for serenity.after all cattle must have been pretty valuable if you are going to smuggle them, also wasnt she a wreck when we first saw her so she probably wouldnt have cost much comparatively

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Friday, March 19, 2004 3:30 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Here are my thoughts.

I think that most of the firearms used in the future may use ammo that is better than that commonly available to non military types. This ammo may be able to penetrate standard body armor, so a more expensive, better type of armor had to be made to stop these rounds. This armor is very hard to come by, and like most things on the black market, is far more expensive than most can afford.

Badger, Niska, and other crime lords would not purchase such expensive armor for their goons because it is far cheaper to replace goons than to purchase such armor. Just like you don't see every gang banger and thug on the streets today w/ body armor, why would they necessarily have it in the Firefly setting?

Zoe's armor might be something left over from the war, something she got while fighting for the Independants or some battlefield loot from an Alliance soldier.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Friday, March 19, 2004 4:23 AM

KALIMEERI

She might've owned a ranch, but she obviously isn't there any more, or he'd talk about it or at least have an inclination to visit. It's likely that the government was responsible for something bad happening to it, forcing it out of business or simply appropriating it. That Independence loyalty is personal to Mal.

Jen dao mei.

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Friday, March 19, 2004 4:38 AM

DAVEY

mal doesnt like talking about the past, im thinking i rememer him saying that in our mrs reynolds.she might well not be there any more which would leave him the owner(i dont think there has been any mention of any siblings)im not saying that he still runs the ranch but could have sold it and bought serenity from the proceeds

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Friday, March 19, 2004 4:58 AM

STATIC

Voice of experience:

Mal most likely paid for Serenity with money saved during the war, because I can tell you. . .during war, you make an assload of money without anywhere to really spend it. . .or ample opportunity either.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Friday, March 19, 2004 5:11 AM

KALIMEERI

Providing you actually get paid, if you were on the losing side. LOL.

Jen dao mei.

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Friday, March 19, 2004 6:42 AM

KURUKAMI

The only possible hitch with that is... would the Independents have paid in Alliance-friendly currency, or in their own minted currency? Perhaps that's where the divide between platinum and credits sprang up.

As for Zoe, I always presumed that it was something she and Mal had left over from the war -- form-fitting torso-only body armor, that can be easily worn concealed beneath clothing. The rest of the crew don't have that because they were never in the war with the Independents.

"Sir, I would like to gingerly point out that it is difficult for someone to be gently reassuring when they're holding three and a half feet of sharpened steel."

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Friday, March 19, 2004 6:49 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
The only possible hitch with that is... would the Independents have paid in Alliance-friendly currency, or in their own minted currency? Perhaps that's where the divide between platinum and credits sprang up.

Good point.

After the Civil War, many Confederates found themselves impoverished because their money was in Confederate currency, a gov't that no longer existed, so the money was worthless. Many also lost property because the Federal gov't had not received taxes on the property for the duration of the war and they accessed interest. Much real estate was lost to carpet baggers who bought the property up for the balance of the back taxes.

Quote:
As for Zoe, I always presumed that it was something she and Mal had left over from the war -- form-fitting torso-only body armor, that can be easily worn concealed beneath clothing. The rest of the crew don't have that because they were never in the war with the Independents.

This is a good possibility, and makes as much sense as anything else.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Friday, March 19, 2004 6:54 AM

TRAGICSTORY

I don't agree with the "war pay" because the independants lost. A perfect example would be if the Taliban in Quantanamo are going to get paid.

As for selling the ranch, I don't think so because Mal is not the kind of person to gamble with the lives of the 40 some hands. He would be the kind of man who would stay and make the ranch prosper. My guess is that the ranch was confiscated during or after the war.

So as to how Mal got Serenity I would guess that he did a job, possibly for Badger, a job he swore he would never do until there was no other way of getting a ship. (Which makes his speach in Trash that much more intresting, IMHO)
Edit:
Cold medicine is affecting spelling today sorry
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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Friday, March 19, 2004 7:22 AM

KALIMEERI

I would agree that he wouldn't have sold the ranch; and that it was probably lost during the war.

Cattle would've been one of the first things to go; an Alliance army would've made short work of them.

I'd think the Independence probably used an electronic credit transfer system for the troops, for as long as the money held out.

Good point that they may have paid in different currency, but perhaps the Alliance might honor that currency in the interests of smoothing things over (one big happy family now), or as a part of a peace agreement.

The thievery aspect of Mal's character is interesting, because he wants to conduct dishonest business honestly. Do the job, get paid. Can't do the job, give back the money. A tiny rebellion against all things Alliance? Or maybe just a kick against everything he was taught, because none of it seems to work or means a damned thing?

Jen dao mei.

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Friday, March 19, 2004 8:27 AM

HATEHATEHATEFOX

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Here are my thoughts. (snippage)

Zoe's armor might be something left over from the war, something she got while fighting for the Independants or some battlefield loot from an Alliance soldier.

That reminds me, in the pilot it looks as though Zoe (and maybe others) have chain mail on. The sleeves under her main coat look very much like chain mail. Does anyone have a screen cap anywhere of this? I'm at work and can't get to my DVDs.

~~~~~~~~
Nothing is ever so profoundly regretted as a kind act.
Robertson Davies

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Friday, March 19, 2004 11:11 AM

LTNOWIS

Quote:
There was some time lapse between the end of the war and his buying the ship, so either he didn't get the idea right away or he was busy engaging in gambling or "petty" thievery to get the rest.

Or he tried honest work, but was stigmatized because of his history. That would explain his reasons for getting the ship, as he outlined in Out of Gas

Quote:
Good point that they may have paid in different currency, but perhaps the Alliance might honor that currency in the interests of smoothing things over (one big happy family now), or as a part of a peace agreement.

This is reasonably plausable, considering the fact that it wasn't an unconditional surrender. They could've kept fighting, but High Command didn't feel like it.

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Friday, March 19, 2004 11:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Most folks, well... non-badass-military folks, do not wear armor every day, all day, it's heavy, hot, uncomfortable and restrictive of movement, no matter HOW good it is.

What Zoe wears is likely a light metal/fibre-mesh (futuristic, but plausible) vest capable of stopping ordinary small arms fire - but not sufficient to stop actual assault rifle rounds.

Wearing even the lightest body armor as an all day, every day thing takes a LOT of getting used to, and there's a very high annoyance factor (I call it the "F--- it!" factor myself) since a great deal of the time, you don't need it...

Most folks just don't get on with wearing it all the time for that one chance in a hundred, it's not worth the hassle to em - thus, only a real hardcore like Zoe would continuosly wear a set.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Friday, March 19, 2004 1:45 PM

LJOSALF

On the topic of platinum, gold, copper, etc. vs. credits, this may simply be the difference between cold hard cash and electronic currency, "exchange rate" as mentioned in Ariel notwithstanding. If you are a petty criminal, you would naturally prefer to be paid in cash. On the flip side, there may be quite critical transactions that you can't complete conveniently without credit/electronic funds transfer.

I agree that Mal probably lost the ranch possibly through some back taxes/overdue mortgage thing. ("Take my love, take my land...") My guess is that he was forced to sell and got pennies on the dollar per acre. Any ranch that required 40 hands to run would be pretty darn big, though, and the full sales price might have covered what was owed and then some. Whatever was left over after clearing the debt may have been just about enough to purchase a Firefly with a few miles on her....

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Friday, March 19, 2004 6:00 PM

OCELOTWREAK

An "assload" is an awful lot of dough - more likely it was just more than Mal was used to seeing on the ranch or a paycheck or whatever came before the war. And you're certainly right that when there's no place to spend it, it would add up to a tidy down payment on a firefly over a year or two.

But I wonder about Zoe's buy-in: is she just another 10%-er like Jayne, but with loyalty to Mal and the unbreakable camradarie between fellow warriers? Since the war is over, you would imagine her moving on, unless "Sir" Mal is still her boss - now in commerce - just as he had previously been her sargent in war.

Perhaps she is learning a new trade. Perhaps she feels the need to be "close to the action" while learning how to not be a soldier any more. In any case, she doesn't do anything without his ok first. I think her money from their jobs is invested in keeping Serenity going so that she can learn how to live in this "New Meta-world Disorder." Certainly she is not yet willing to remove her body armour, just in case...

Mal on the other hand has no such illusions of ever fitting in.

-Ocelot Wreak

"I figure you're here 'cause you need some whacko who's willing to stick his finger in the fan. So who are we helping?" - Mickey K., in 'The Equalizer'

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Friday, March 19, 2004 8:34 PM

LEMAT

Zoe could be wearing armor that provides a minimal level of protection, like the earlest Kevlar vests for police or the nylon (Korea/Vietnam) or light flexible steel (WWI/WWII) flak/schrapnel jackets. It might be somewhat more high tech than what we have today, but I still tend to think that it is a kind of minimalistic armor meant to stop simple, lead bullets from pistols and shotguns.

I like to think that we see alot of guns in Firefly because people are using technologies that have been proven in the past and are easy for them to obtain/maintain. We might be looking at a combination of bullet types, just as we are looking at guns that come from many different periods. I think that many, or perhaps most, of the cartidges are loaded with lead bullets. Jayne alludes to this in Out of Gas when he is being repremanded because his gun was where River could find it. A Kevlar vest--or, car bodies, steel doors, packed earth, etc--can stop lead bullets more readily than copper-jacketed lead or steel bullets. Zoe was hit with a shot gun (at least I think she was) which basicly fires alot of lead bullets. One of the reasons police in this country (US) tend to use shotguns is that the shot slows down rather quickly and does not go through as many walls as a jacketed bullet.

But, then again, that blast was pretty Gorram close, and she should have a few broken ribs or a collarbone, or something.

in kevlar we trust

Jon

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Saturday, March 20, 2004 2:01 PM

KALIMEERI

Somebody also mentioned last week that he thought Zoe was wearing some kind of chain mail in Serenity during the battle scenes. I can't find the thread, but she and Tracey are wearing chain of some kind in the Battle of Du-Khang, "The Message."

Jen dao mei.

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Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:25 AM

REDKOMMIE

Well, I remember Mal telling Jayne that the bullets are soft tipped (most bullets that would be anyways, since I do know there are Cop-Killers out there... armor piercing). That might be why Zoe's armor (and I do think Jayne was wearing some in War Stories, cause of the shot he took) could deflect it so. I also think she must have gotten it during the war. She was the point man(woman :P) and since she perfered stealth over ... well Mal's tatics, she must have gotten a lighter, more flexible armor. Now since they wear it under their shirts, we can never really tell if they are wearing it or not.

Plus, going by the face that Zoe got it during the war (and asumming Mal has one, and they had another for Jayne) it would be hard, but not unimaginable for the underworld to get it. It all depends on if the Indepents (if they are the ones that made it) made so many, and if those so many weren't... collected after the war by the alliance. If Zoe got it off a dead Alliance trooper then... it would be even harder for people like Badger and Niska to have them.

Thats just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

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Sunday, March 21, 2004 4:42 AM

ECMORGAN69

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Most folks, well... non-badass-military folks, do not wear armor every day, all day, it's heavy, hot, uncomfortable and restrictive of movement, no matter HOW good it is.

What Zoe wears is likely a light metal/fibre-mesh (futuristic, but plausible) vest capable of stopping ordinary small arms fire - but not sufficient to stop actual assault rifle rounds.

Wearing even the lightest body armor as an all day, every day thing takes a LOT of getting used to, and there's a very high annoyance factor (I call it the "F--- it!" factor myself) since a great deal of the time, you don't need it...

Most folks just don't get on with wearing it all the time for that one chance in a hundred, it's not worth the hassle to em - thus, only a real hardcore like Zoe would continuosly wear a set.

-frem
diefuxdie

Wouldn't body armor and/or trauma plates become more advanced/more wearable/lighter/stronger/etc./etc. in 500 years? Just in the past 25 years, we've gone from way expensive and heavy kevlar vests to relatively light vests that can be had for $200 that will protect you from most small arms. Wouldn't it stand to reason that that technology would advance farther? Anyway, just my two cents.

Also, Jayne took one in the arm in "War Stories". Left one, if memory serves.

They can have my "Firefly" DVDs when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers....

Oh yeah,

you, FOX TV!!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:29 AM

LODRIL

True... armor would probably advance, but don't get caught in the trap of thinking that therefore it will have universally more convenient characteristics. As defenses advance, so do methods of attack; and so while everyone might even have fibers built into their everyday clothes that could stop our modern weaponry, they wouldn't often be facing 'modern' weaponry.

With a single autocratic and invasive government, I'd imagine you don't see much body armor because the Feds keep tight controls on its distribution.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:41 AM

FORRESTWOLF

In regards to the chainmail posts: I agree - I've been fascinated by the use of chainmail by the Independents for a while. Both big flashback war scenes mentioned (Serenity and The Message) clearly show cuff-length chainmail worn by Independent troops. My understanding was that Zoe was indeed just wearing the VEST part of her old armor from the war - it looks like chain under her shirt in Serenity when she gets hit.

As for the technology involved, the concept dates back a ways - Star Trek Next Gen. has chainmail on the Earth trooper brought in by Q in the pilot episode - also, the Traveller roleplaying game has chainmail ('mesh') armor as an option for stopping bullets.

That being said, where did Star Trek, Traveller, and our boy Joss get the idea? I'm sure there's a common sci-fi source, but I'm not sure who.

So, what classic sci-fi author used chainmail for futuristic body armor?

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:22 PM

LEMAT

It looked like a synthetic/nylonish wife-beater that Zoe was wearing, not a chain mail wife-beater. And if it was mail, then it was basicly something that we have never seen, because a bullet or piece of buckshot would have gone right through the links of any metal that we could form mail out of today.

Maybe it was just a shirt that was supporting small ceramic or plastic or light weight alloy plates underneath. That would explain why Zoe says "Armor's dented" (my emphasis).

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:51 PM

THEFOP

I'm thinking that the real expenses from Serenity wouldn't have come from the purchase, but from getting her up and running. She was kind of a shitheap at first, and much though I want one, continued to be throughout what there was of the series.

once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood

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