The Return of Jubal Early by ecgordon

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Return of Jubal Early

POSTED BY: ECGORDON
UPDATED: Friday, April 9, 2004 18:47
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 9282
PAGE 1 of 1

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 3:57 PM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

This has been discussed within another thread recently, and possibly has had its own thread too some time before I became a regular visitor here. We saw two appearances each by Badger, Niska and YoSafBridge. Is it likely that Jubal Early would have returned if the series had continued a full season? What with everything else Joss is probably going to include in the Big Damn Movie, I find it unlikely that we will see Jubal then, but how about when Firefly returns as a regular series?

Is there anyone who thinks that Jubal died? Not me. I think one of two things happened. He had some way to control his ship remotely and programmed it to pick him up. The other alternative someone else mentioned recently. Could River have programmed the ship to home in on a signal from Jubal's spacesuit?

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 4:06 PM

DORAN

"Could River have programmed the ship to home in on a signal from Jubal's spacesuit?"

Forget the suit signal; this is River we're talking about. She probably calculated the trajectory of Jubal's bounce off his ship and with a combination of precognition and raw mathimatical power estimated exactly where she wanted him to be when the ship picked him up and pre-entered the flight plan.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 4:06 PM

JEBBYPAL

Honestly, I think Jubal died and wouldn't/won't be back. Yes the other two INCREDIBLE guest stars reappeared but nothing occured to make you think that they had died. While seeing Jubal's character would be fun, i don't think it's really the type of thing that Joss and co would go for just cause it almost seems like too easy of a story. My opinion only:)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 4:34 PM

TRASK43

Going slightly of topic for a minute but I saw a couple of eps of good vs evil the other day and it took me about ten minutes to figure out where I knew the actor from. It seemed like a pretty good show it was something Id wanted to watch before but Id never gotten chance.

Back on topic I would have been a little bit suprised if we saw Jubal again but you never know with Joss.

www.summer-glau.com

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 4:54 PM

WYDRAZ

I just think that joss left Jubal's death ambiguous because he was such a great character that, if he wanted to, he could bring him back in the future for a needed role in an as yet unrealized story.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 6:10 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

If you watch closely at the end of OiS you can see the reflection of a ship approaching in Early's visor.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 6:35 PM

LINDYCAT

"If you watch closely at the end of OiS you can see the reflection of a ship approaching in Early's visor."

No Way!

NO WAYYYYY!!!!

I can't watch mine to check until Friday, somebody tell me it ain't so.

LC

[img]

[/img]

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 10:55 PM

STATIC

Richard Brooks also played Assistant District Attorney Paul Robinette during the first few seasons of "Law and Order" and he was the head 'bad guy' in the second "Crow" movie.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 1:05 AM

WREN

Quote:
Originally posted by LindyCat:
"If you watch closely at the end of OiS you can see the reflection of a ship approaching in Early's visor."

No Way!

NO WAYYYYY!!!!

I can't watch mine to check until Friday, somebody tell me it ain't so.
]

I just checked and Veteran is right, there is a ship reflected in the visor. From the shape of it I think it's more likely to be Jubals ship than a reflection of Serenity.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 1:33 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I just checked too, and while there is a reflection, I couldn't tell if it was his ship or not, but definitely not Serenity.

Perhaps that was what Early meant by "here I am." I had always thought it was more of his existential philosophy at work, but perhaps he was talking to his ship.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 4:30 AM

BLAZINGBUG

You know, I see a reflection, but I don't see a "ship." Sorry to say I'm more inclined to think it's just the lights from the set and nothing more.

Actually, that's what I hope. It may sound odd, but I don't want Jubal to come back.

First, it kind of detracts from Joss' "realism" of space. One guy floating in the void simply would never be found. If he could have remotely controlled his ship, then we would have seen that as soon as he realized River was in his ship. The only real option for survival is River programming the ship to pick him up. But if you threaten River or her friends, she pretty much kills you, so I don't think that's an option either.

But mostly, Jubal was cool, but I think he served his purpose in the story. He was a mirror to River. And to me at least, the ending showcased their difference. River became a part of the world, and Jubal would forever be apart from it. "A part" and "apart," almost exactly the same but with just one little difference that makes them opposite.

To bring him back, for me at least, would just lessen the story in OiS.

Then again, Joss has surprised me before.

"Wacky fun..."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 5:57 AM

BADGERSHAT

I'm always good for a comment or three, as some Browncoats may have discovered by now.

I think Early was shunted off into space for a reason. That reason, however, exists in the mind of an extremely creative and disgustingly talented man named Joss Whedon.

Very early on in the Buffyverse, I learned a valuable lesson--"Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time." I call this the Truth of Whedoning.

Personally, Early got on my nerves a bit, which I believe was the intention (maybe... see the above Truth of Whedoning). If he comes back, I have no doubt it'll serve a part of a complex purpose that will leave me glad it happened. If he's gone, I'll be happy about that too.

There have been specific episodes of Whedoverse shows I've not been thrilled with, or more accurately, parts of specific Whedoverse episoded. But overall, I've not been disappointed with anything.

The long winded point is, no matter what, it's gonna kick ass! (I knew I'd get to that point eventually)

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 6:02 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Oh, Early would have been back alright, no doubt about it.

I have no doubt that Joss had plans for Early later in the series. The fact that he was floating in space & seemingly left to die is all the more proof that he would reappear. Joss always finds a way to bring characters back, regardless of how sure we are that they are dead.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 7:25 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

I think it's highly plausible that Joss could bring Jubal back. Consider all the characters from Buffy/Angel who had died and were brought back in some way:

-Buffy (twice)
-Angel
-Darla
-Lilah
-Fred (As Ilyria)
-Joyce (Dreams, flashbacks, and alternate realities)
-The Master (Flashbacks, alternate realities, and as The First)
-Holland Manners
-Jenny, Warren, Jonathan, Adam, The Mayor, Nikki Wood, and possibly Joyce (All as The First)

There may be more, but these are who I can come up with just off the top of my head. And we didn't actually SEE Jubal die, unlike the rest of these, so anything is possible. Having said that, I wouldn't necessarily advocate Jobal's return unless there was a good story reason for it.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 7:34 AM

SCIFIDO

I'm with the 'Bug.

I think one of the points of the episode was the irony that after discussing the incredible isolation of space travel, Serenity is in fact not alone.

So, Early's departure was his payoff for the fact that he relied on noone. River became part of a dependant group of people. Early drifted off to die in solitude.

Early was a great character designed to show why River could not go it alone.

Well, that's my opinion anyway.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 7:51 AM

DUKE

I don't know that it is so unlikely that Jubal got picked up, or that he would be in the BDM.

I mean we know that one set of bad guys set to appear in the BDM are also the same set of bad guys cuisin' the rim looking for helpless victims, of which one guy floating alone in a space suit would certainly appear to be.

We can futher assume that those same bad guys would have been close enough to Jubal to pick him up before he ran out of air as they may well ahve been tailing Serenity since their last ignoble defeat, just waiting for a chance to strike.

So get ready for the major baddie of the BDM: Jubal early- King of the Reavers!!

"Now, does that seem right to you?"

"I'll be in my bunk..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 8:25 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Another point to consider. Jubal seemed to be a very crafty and resourceful bounty hunter. I do not doubt he would have some sort of remote control or emergency beacon for his ship. He does space walk to spy on ships his targets are on afterall. Pays to have a backup plan incase things go wrong.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 9:18 AM

THECLAPS

My thoughts exactly.

Remote.

River's smart, but I doubt she knows how to override Early's controls. Remember? She can read minds but can't even figure out how to eat an ice planet!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 9:26 AM

DORAN

TheClaps:

"..But if you threaten River or her friends, she pretty much kills you, so I don't think that's an option either."

That was true in earlier episodes.. but I think you have to consider River's state of mind during this episode.. which is suddenly non-lethal; Her killing of the three combatants at Niska's place by her is what caused the schism between she and the crew at the onset of this story. Her parroting the "no touching guns" comment could be a by-product of this new philosophy.

I suspect that in her mind she would feel that killing Jubal in any fashion would be just as serious as shooting him, which obviously she could have done.

Blazingbug:

"River's smart, but I doubt she knows how to override Early's controls. Remember? She can read minds but can't even figure out how to eat an ice planet!"

I have to disagree with this..

The problem with the ice planet is just so typical of genius.. she instantly grasps the complex and yet struggles with common sense. I have witnessed this first hand in smart people I have known.

River actually manages quite well in Jubal's ship. Think of what River had to do in Jubal's ship during this episode:

She had to find the this ship and get to it without being spotted.

She had to put on the space suit correctly; note Simon failed this task in 'Bushwhacked'.

She had to get into the ship without alerting Jubal, which may have included the operation of complicated air-locking controls for a very small ship. Note that even with a space suit on there is vacuum and ship atmos to worry about.

She had to open multiple isolated and general voice channels into Serenity to speak to various people and everyone at once.

She had to be aware of everyone’s locations at once.

She had to direct Jubal's ship in a time-delayed fashion before she left it.

Remember that she spouted the technical references for Serenity after only really seeing the ship from the cargo and medical bays. I believe that it would be nothing for her to figure flight path controls.. even if she had to get the info from Jubal's mind.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 9:45 AM

BADGERSHAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Doran:
"..But if you threaten River or her friends, she pretty much kills you, so I don't think that's an option either."

That was true in earlier episodes.. but I think you have to consider River's state of mind during this show.. which is suddenly non-lethal; Her killing of the three combatants at Niska's place by her is what caused the schism between she and the crew at the onset of this story. Her parroting the "no touching guns" comment could be a by-product of this new philosophy.

I suspect that in her mind she would feel that killing Jubal in any fashion would be just as serious as shooting him, which obviously she could have done.

Actually, the schism was between her and Kaylee, and it was the brandishing of the gun in the cargo bay that brought the rest of the crew in on it--they didn't find out about the shooting incident until later.

I think we also need to keep in mind that, for all her "progress" in healing, SOMETHING was done to River to make her... whatever the hell it si she is. Something made her able to do that no-look triple kill. And that same something could very easily make her more than willing to kill Early to protect her brother and all else on board.

Or... perhaps she sent the ship to pick his bizzarre ass up, and then she locked in a course to the Alliance. Perhaps part of her training was recruiting potential agents, and she was unable to stop herself from sending his there...

... nah, THAT is simply absurd... never mind.

Anyway, River's an enigma, and I think she sent the ship off one way, and Early is off the other, never to meet again, to float around until he drifts into a planetary gravity well and burns up in re-entry. But he's such a whackadoo in his own way, that he's totally unable to truly comprehend it. To him, nothing is "real"--we've learned already that he enjoyed killing, which puts him in the category of psycho- or socio-pathic... and one of the classic characteristics of such is the inability to comprehend actual reality for what it is.

So, "Well, here I am" would be a pretty characteristic statement for someone in that situation, not realizing that he's approaching death...

... I gotta stop reading my old psychology textbooks from college...

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 10:01 AM

DORAN

"Actually, the schism was between her and Kaylee"

Yes, initially this is true.. however, at the beginning of the episode there is a build up of the idea that the schism is quickly spreading to the whole of the crew at least in River's mind. She feels alone like she doesn't belong, and thinks she's a detriment to the well being of everyone on board, even Simon. She comes to grips with her misfitness (is that a word? :)) and realizes that the crew actually want and need her.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 10:07 AM

BADGERSHAT

Is misfitness WASN'T a word, it should be... and hereby IS a word from here on.

Do we know that everyone wants and needs her? Jayne certainly showed no signs of that. But I see your point.

Speaking of...

... who else would've LOVED to see Early and Jayne square off? I think that would have been a Clash of the Titans moment--big strong Early with his bizzarre-yet-wise statements, versus big strong Jayne with his bizzarre-yet-idiotic comebacks...

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 10:25 AM

DORAN

"Jayne certainly showed no signs of that. But I see your point."

You know that's an interesting point.. Jayne was asleep through most of this episode and she didn't try to talk to him either.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 11:00 AM

KARENKAY99

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
If you watch closely at the end of OiS you can see the reflection of a ship approaching in Early's visor.

excellent observation!!
i agree, he'll be back. he was too good to not have an escape plan. i like the idea of river saving him, she really didn't want anyone to get hurt, but i think it's much more likely that he saved himself somehow.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 11:08 AM

KARENKAY99

Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
... who else would've LOVED to see Early and Jayne square off?

yes, jayne never saw early on serenity. maybe they even know each from the past. could be wacky fun.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 12:16 PM

BLAZINGBUG

If Jubal has a remote control for the ship and is so worried about what River might touch in his ship, why doesn't he get it out or even glance at it?

Jubal was cool, no debate, but unlike Boba Fett he needs to stay in the Sarlacc.

Personally, I think Joss might have even been saying that. We know the character was inspired by Boba Fett. So we don't actually see him killed, realisticly, he will die in space at the corner of No and Where.

The only plausible option for his survival (that we've seen from the episode) is that River set his ship to return to him. But I think River takes things literally; she says no touching guns because she was told no touching guns. Plus she knows how good Early is; pulling a gun on him has a good chance of getting a member of the crew killed. Pushing him off the ship, not so much. I don't think she'd have any problem letting Early die if for no other reason than she knows what he did to Kaylee.

It's kind of like what Dobson did to Book; it was the "he's okay to kill" moment.

You know, whether he was to come back or not was probably decided long ago. We can just hope that it's something we get to see one way or another.

"Wacky fun..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 12:26 PM

TMURRIE

Quote:
Originally posted by karenkay99:
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
... who else would've LOVED to see Early and Jayne square off?

yes, jayne never saw early on serenity. maybe they even know each from the past. could be wacky fun.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

WHOA! I never thought of that. Maybe one day when Serenity is on a planet, Jayne wonders off, and DUN DUN DUNNNN, he see's Early. But he never knows what he looks like,or Book either. Hey I got an idea! It would be awesome if Book and Early had a wacky past too! That's why Early knows him. They could have a fight or even..THEY COULD BE BROTHERS!! whoa. I am just spewing theorys today.

Yes, they could be cousins, or relatives. Or war buddies of some type. But when the war was over, Early wanted to get the gang started again,like Mal. But Book wanted to take it easy for the rest of his life. That's why Early hates and knows him. It could be possible that Book didn't want his friend/brother/cousin to die, so he flagged the alliance or someone to pick him up. Then the blue hands would try to kill him once they knew he found them, but Early would of course get out. Now HE'S a fugitve as well...HAHA!

Just a theory...or two...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 12:47 PM

DORAN

"I don't think she'd have any problem letting Early die if for no other reason than she knows what he did to Kaylee."

You mean what he threatened to do. In actuality he tied her up and told her she'd be safe if she kept quite. Now River was in a unique position to understand that he was serious about his threats and that he seriously would enjoy hurting Kaylee. But many people on Firefly have tried to kill or hurt them and even shot Kayle once; River hasn't killed all of them.

I guess what I'm cautioning here is that there is a difference between threat and action; elevating the threat to a worse status than the act is silly. I'm not saying River should not or would not deal with a pending threat. But I'm not convinced she was ready to kill Jubal especially in light of the odd kinship relationship she seemed to infer.

Now if Jubal showed up again in the future I suspect she would have no qualms in taking him out.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 1:14 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Thanks 99, but I can't take credit for that, I think Maniacnumberone pointed it out in a similar thread a couple months ago.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 1:21 PM

MORDRAIG

I looked at the reflection in the visor in OIS. To me it looks like a person upside down in perspective to Early's position at that time and it appears the person is holding something (a gun) in their right hand.

I'm thinking Early would fit right in with Reavers and that could lead to all sorts of unpleasantness.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 1:32 PM

THECLAPS

Why are you all talking about River killing people? She doesn't enjoy killing people. She was just made to. That doesn't mean she wants to. When put in an extreme position and her "training" takes over, she'll kill. But in this scenario, it was just a ploy to get Early off the ship. It was NOT premeditated murder. It was the sweet girl protecting her friends in a non-lethal manner. It was the whole theme of the episode! They both have training, they both are intuitive, yet she doesn't want to kill. All these ideas of her rigging Early's ship are preposterous! She would've mentioned it, or they would have brought it up in the show.

Anyways, I went on on my little fanboy rant there. But realistically, it's left open not for our interpretation, but for Joss to take advantage of if he needs to bring him back. In which case: suit beacon! You people read into it too much! Open ended = writer convenience

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 2:06 PM

ZOID

You guys are waaaay beyond me on this stuff.

So, I'll just say that:

1. I thought Early was the second-most interesting antagonist on the show. We all know who Numero Uno is don't we? As such, I would definitely like to see his character again, perhaps even as an ally next time.

2. Early had the coolest spacesuit, ship and pistolero of the truncated series.

3. Y'all know who Jubal Early, of American history was right? Look here http://www.civilwarhome.com/CMHearlybio.htm for a peek. Maybe his name's a hint to the character's future?

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 3:09 PM

BLAZINGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Doran:
"I don't think she'd have any problem letting Early die if for no other reason than she knows what he did to Kaylee."

You mean what he threatened to do. In actuality he tied her up and told her she'd be safe if she kept quite. Now River was in a unique position to understand that he was serious about his threats and that he seriously would enjoy hurting Kaylee.

No, I meant what I said, what he did to Kaylee. Using the most evil, painful, frightening threat he could to insure Kaylee would do what he said. Knowing her fear was the most effective way to control her, and leaving Kaylee with the knowledge that her fear was stronger than her desire to help her friends.

Abuse isn't about the act; it's about control, and that is what Jubal did to Kaylee.

Quote:
Originally posted by Doran:
But many people on Firefly have tried to kill or hurt them and even shot Kayle once; River hasn't killed all of them.

Sorry but those instances would only be valid if River was in a position to act. River was in a box when Kaylee was shot and, besides her other issues, was dealing with coming out of cryo early. There was only one time she was in a position to act when anyone was threatened, and we know what she did then.

Besides, I'm not even saying River killed Jubal. I'm saying she let him die. Mal did the deed.

"Wacky fun..."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 4:28 PM

KARENKAY99

Quote:
Originally posted by Mordraig:
I looked at the reflection in the visor in OIS. To me it looks like a person upside down in perspective to Early's position at that time and it appears the person is holding something (a gun) in their right hand.

we saw it. it's his ship. it's upside down. like ol' betsy.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 4:37 PM

THECLAPS

Zoid

I read the biography and somehow doubt that this Jubal Early has anything to do with ours, except that he's a character in the setting of a civil war. I mean he's a lawyer who fought for the confederacy as an officer. No talk of bounty hunting. Supposedly a great leader though, had some great battles. I however doubt that we'll see Jubal Early leading a platoon of Alliance troops into attack though... And for some reason, I also doubt that he would have at any point during the war for unification.

Maybe Joss just gets kicks taking names out of history books.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 8, 2004 10:59 PM

WREN

Is there any way of pulling the visor image out, like JUSTDAVID did with Inaras needle box?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 5:13 AM

DORAN

"Why are you all talking about River killing people? She doesn't enjoy killing people. She was just made to."

Remember this is still highly speculative. We still don't know for sure exactly what the alliance may have had in mind for River. Why strip her imigula to make her feel everything, fear, anger, joy, paranoia, if it was their intention of making her into an untimate killing machine. It seems to me this would have the opposite effect, making her unreliable as a tool of death.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 5:25 AM

DORAN

"Abuse isn't about the act; it's about control, and that is what Jubal did to Kaylee."

I thought I heard abuse was about violence. Anyway there are many levels of abuse; as levels go threat is the least violent I can think of, though indeed Jubal's threats were bad.

No doubt Jubal was trying to control Kaylee. But who hadn't tried to control one person or another on board Serenity by threat? Heck, even Mal had made threats against members of the crew in order to control; as far as I know River hasn't tried to kill him yet.

"Besides, I'm not even saying River killed Jubal. I'm saying she let him die. Mal did the deed."

This is your best point yet. I could be wrong. You could be exactly on.. that's the risk we take with speculation. I still like my own pet theory. :O)

Interesting discussion. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 5:48 AM

ASTRIANA

Quote:
Originally posted by BlazingBug:
No, I meant what I said, what he did to Kaylee. Using the most evil, painful, frightening threat he could to insure Kaylee would do what he said. Knowing her fear was the most effective way to control her, and leaving Kaylee with the knowledge that her fear was stronger than her desire to help her friends.

Abuse isn't about the act; it's about control, and that is what Jubal did to Kaylee.

I have to agree here. I know I'm a bit out of synch with everyone on this, but my opinion is that Early is the absolutely scariest of all the characters presented in Firefly - and perhaps several other shows/movies, too. He's just so... emotionless... when he's threatening Kaylee. Sends chills down my spine in a way most "scary" shows and movies can't come close to.

In that scene, I don't know who to be more afraid of - the actor who played Early (whose name I can't remember), for being able to convey that so well, or Joss, for writing it that way. *shudder*

You're right - it's about control, and I really do shudder to think of the kind of damage that hundan might have done to our little Kaylee. (Maybehaps they'll touch on that in the movie, since it's supposed to be set 6 months after OiS?)

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 10:27 AM

JGSUGDEN

Early would have been back. Listen to the DVD commentary by Joss. Let me translate it for you.

"At heart, I love being cruel. I whip puppies in my mind. I imagine how sweet it would be to steal candy from children. I relish the thought of spitting on a friend's hot dog. Except, in reality, I can't do these things.

So, I do them to my characters. I put Angel and Buffy through hell. I make them utterly and totally miserable. Oh, sure, this makes for better stories. But, in truth, I'd do it even if it had no effect on the quality of the story. Because I get a perverse kick out of the pain I cause. And in the end, I don't even have to feel guilty about it. Because my characters are not truly real. Just real enough for me to torture.

And Early is that side of me. Rational. Cruel. And not guilty about it at all. I loved writing him. It was a labor of love. And I would write him again ... and again ... and again ... every time I could work it into the show."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 3:54 PM

DORAN

"You're right - it's about control, and I really do shudder to think of the kind of damage that hundan might have done to our little Kaylee."

Yes, it is control that Jubal sought and in a scary way but I don't necessarily conclude that River would have automatically accepted the scary threat is equal to scary torture, pain and death. I believe she saw Jubal as a dangerous broken human, like herself. My feeling here is that she sought a non-lethal way to negate the danger if only to prove to herself that she wasn't the killer the others had started to think she might be.

If Jubal shows up in the future we will know that it was a conscious decision
River made to let him live. Even if Jubal remotely saved himself River would have probably known it would happen and could have prevented it.

Like I said before this is all speculative.. The fact that Jubal was such a great villian makes him ripe to return in my mind.. but I don't expect him to return the same man.. Probably still insane though. :O)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:00 PM

DUKE1337

Good vs Evil? You mean like GvsE Good vs Evil? With the morlocks and the corps and stuff? Where/when/how did you watch a couple episodes. I'm pretty sure it's not on TV anymore and I know that there's no DVD set (at least no offical one anyway).

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:12 PM

ZOID

Just a quick thought:

As I stated earlier (no pun intended), I enjoyed Jubal, and implied that I thought him second only to Saffron among the antagonists the show presented.

My little epiphany: Both Jubal and Saffron use sex as a weapon, to control others.

Probably just coincidental, but interesting, no?

While we're at it, the sh*thead from HoG (can't recall his name, and glad he took one in the brainpan) and Atherton Wing of "Shindig" both do likewise...

With regard to Joss' use of the name "Jubal Early", I didn't intend to imply that JW necessarily had an ulterior motive, merely that I recognized the name from American history, as a Civil War figure, and that Firefly's story was heavily influenced by Civil War lore. How JW would go about tying the character and the figure together is totally beyond me, so it's probably just an affectation.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar; but then again...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 5:37 PM

BLAZINGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden:
Early would have been back. Listen to the DVD commentary by Joss. Let me translate it for you.

Did you mean the DVD commentary for OiS? If so, that is one heck of a "translation." There is nothing in there like that to my mind. In fact, this quote almost seems the exact opposite of that.

Quote:
Kaylee is someone that he approaches a different way, through a really horrible form of sexual intimidation. This is one of those scenes that y'know...you write and then you worry that maybe you're not as good a person as you hoped you were. You film this scene and everybody kinda wants to avoid you for the rest of the day. It really is just as creepy as possible.

And as far as there being some plan for a return to this character, well, he also says this...

Quote:
The other thing is that, uhm...that there is no moral. That like an object in space this episode exists -- it has an emotional arc, it's a story to be told, I'm not gonna sit there and lecture the audience although I am right now, but, hey, you listened, it's not my fault! -- but that it itself is also just an object.

So really, right now, we are doing exactly what Joss talks about in the commentary. We are imbueing the object, this episode, with its meaning by our own perceptions of it. And since perception is individualistic, the episode has different meanings to each of us.

Kinda deep, ain't it?

"Wacky fun..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:47 PM

ZORIAH

I loved the fact that Early became another object in space.

Jgsugden: That 'translation' of Joss's commentary is um... real different from what I recall, as BlazingBug has already pointed out. Unless it was meant to be a joke? *shrug*

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER

POST DATE