Question about OiS... by zoid

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Question about OiS...

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Monday, April 19, 2004 11:13
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Saturday, April 17, 2004 12:28 PM

Hey, 'coats:

Could somebody please explain where the gun on Serenity's deck came from?

River's suddenly walking through twigs and leaves, does her little cambré (and I thought ballet wasn't sexy) and picks up a branch. The branch becomes a nice, but otherwise standard handgun.

The problem is, I never heard anyone on the show -- or in the commentary for that matter -- nail down the origin of the gun. We may reasonably assume it's one of Jayne's, but that's not established. It occurs to me that had it been Jayne's, Mal would have ripped him off a strip; but he didn't.

They just sort of let the subject of ownership and improper security slide right past. Does anyone know who's gun it was? Where did they identify it in the show? Because I obviously missed the reference somehow, and keep missing it, because it's a favorite repeat-view ep... I just get caught up and neglect to go frame hunting for the answer.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River? I thought she was a sweet girl. Of course, we were all sure she was crazy, too."

- Inara Reynolds, Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs
from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 12:56 PM

WILDHEAVENFARM

The crew did not know where the gun came from, though Jayne swore he hadn't left it accessable. Keep in mind, things involving River are not going to make 100% sense, since her world doesn't make sense to her.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 1:40 PM

DARKJESTER

And I don't think river herself knew where it came from.
Insanity isn't a problem to be fixed in and of itself, it's a solution to a problem with unacceptable consequences in the eyes of the one so afflicted. That is why a mother will carry around her dead child, insisting that it is only sleeping; the alternative (facing the truth) is too terrible for her to bear.
I don't think river is that far gone, but her perceptions of reality wander. I think she found the gun, and her mind invented the leaves on the deck so she could accept seeing the gun as a twig, something harmless.
The surgery done to her brain lets her perceive things beyond the five standard senses. The way she could "feel" Zoe and Wash making out, the way she could tell what Mal and Inara were really thinking. But that extra information is presented to her as seeing, feeling, etc. Like her phrase "It's getting very crowded" after Mal takes the gun and as she storms off. I think that she felt Jubal, felt the presence of another person. 10 people on the ship instead of 9. Getting crowded.
Well, those are my thoughts on the subject. Anyone else?

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:06 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

This has been discussed on at least one other thread. A general consensus is that when we see River in those scenes it does not mean she is physically present in those locations at that time, it is possible all of those confrontations and "readings" of the other crew members are all in her head. Notice how no one seems to acknowledge her presence until their "reading," which does not mean they actually say those things to River directly, she is just reading their mind.

Everything about this episode (which is my favorite) is highly symbolic, not that I understand all the symbolism yet. Nothing should be taken at face value. Even if River is actually wandering the ship, it is possible she has the gun in her hand all the time but no one notices, and she herself doesn't even notice it (hence we are not shown it either) until the cargo bay scene. Where it came from is still a mystery to me, but perhaps she wandered into Jayne's room and took it without realizing it at the time.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:08 PM

ZOID

Hmmm...

Let me put it another way:

As was pointed out, Jayne says it's not his gun.

My question isn't "Why didn't River see a gun instead of a tree branch?", rather it's "Where the aitch eee double hockey sticks did the real gun she found on the deck come from?"

Unless River created it with her mind -- which I'm not even saying -- then the gun had to come from somewhere, right?

Whose gun is it? And why didn't Mal lose his mind going off on whomever was responsible for leaving it loaded, with a round chambered, just lying on the deck?

Then again maybe the military and sergeants have changed a bit over the course of 500 years, and leaving an unsafed weapon lying on the ground is acceptable practice, and...

Nah!

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River? I thought she was a sweet girl. Of course, we were all sure she was crazy, too."

- Inara Reynolds, Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs
from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:14 PM

SHINY

Couldn't it have been the same gun she used in War Stories to shoot the three guards? Maybe she dropped it/hid it somewhere afterwords and picked it up later in OiS in her 'dream' state.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:14 PM

ZOID

ecgordon wrote:

Quote:
...Where it came from is still a mystery to me, but perhaps she wandered into Jayne's room and took it without realizing it at the time.

Wellll, maybe so. Looked like a blooper or writer's sleight of hand to me...

Great episode, but troublesome gun, IMO.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River? I thought she was a sweet girl. Of course, we were all sure she was crazy, too."

- Inara Reynolds, Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs
from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Ok, the whole opening sequence of OiS had me a bit confused. We see River wandering around and eves dropping in on others conversations. We see Simon and Kaylee/ Mal and Inara/Book and Jayne , casually chatting away only to see them make a turt, abrupt comment out of character- perhaps revealing their own inner thoughts, then to carry on as if nothing was said at all. Did River imagine these comments? Was she doing a form of mindreading ? Clairvoyance ? Who can say for sure.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. Worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:50 PM

CORWYN

I think that rather than a blooper, this is a deliberate mystery on the part of the writer. We are _supposed_ to wonder where it came from.

Mal does indicate that it is one of Jayne's guns (while they are arguing on the bridge). But I am inclined to believe him when he says he didn't leave it there. He is not a man careless with firearms.

Other have said that they think River picked it up earlier, that doesn't make any sense to me. Everybody seems to notice immediately, and River seems to be saying when she says to herself, that it is 'just an object, it doesn't mean what you think', that picking it is ok, it doesn't mean she is going to kill people with it. The object is not 'imbued' with malice.

Thank You Kindly.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 3:03 PM

KARENKAY99

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
As was pointed out, Jayne says it's not his gun.

Actually, it is Jayne's gun.

MAL and JAYNE are talking as they climb up the stairs to the bridge.
MAL
Those lockers are sealed. Only way
she can get in there is if she knows
the combination.
JAYNE
I don't leave my guns around, Mal,
and I don't leave 'em loaded.
MAL
Well, somehow she got her hands on your
hardware. Now, supposing she took up
something with hull-piercing bullets?

And I believe Jayne when he says he doesn't leave his guns around.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:01 PM

THOREAU

As has been stated, it is Jayne's gun. The question isn't who's gun is it or when did she get it, the question is why was it on the floor instead of in the locker. She could have pulled the combination out of Jayne's head, I don't think any of us doubt that. I think that's exactly what happened. I think if you were able to see what happened on Serenity in the hour or two leading up to the beginning of OiS, you'd see River taking the gun out of the locker. She'd look at it, wonder about it, try to see if it held any malice or pain as a result of the lives it helped to take. After a few moments she gets a pain or is distracted by a noise or something that takes her focus off the gun, which she has by then decided is just an object, nothing to be afraid of as it has no intelligence or emotion, no ill will towards anyone. She drops the object and then she goes back to her bunk and lies down, weary as she often is. Everyone else is wrapped up in their own little worlds, so no one happens to see the gun until later. When she is awakened by another presence, she wanders the ship reading everyone and looking for the newcomer. When she steps on the gun she left there earlier, she recognizes it as just a mundane object.

so that's my theory

t

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:16 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Couldn't it have been the same gun she used in War Stories to shoot the three guards? Maybe she dropped it/hid it somewhere afterwords and picked it up later in OiS in her 'dream' state.

Ok, I know it's lame to respond to your own post, but I think I have evidence that the gun she holds in OiS is the same one she took from Kaylee in WarStories:

firefly.deadly-nightshade.net/images/warstories/index.php?p=warstories435.jpg&pg=8

firefly.deadly-nightshade.net/images/objectsinspace/index.php?p=objects081.jpg&pg=1

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:16 PM

BOURNE

Here's what I think.

River may or may not be physically wandering thru the ship. I'm leaning towards an actual physical walk-thru, but the fact that no one she encounters (with the possible exception of her brother) reacts to her presence indicates sumpin' scwewy's goin' on.

How 'bout this: this may be a manifestation of one of her psychic-assassin abilities, a pseudo-stealth. Like the Shadow (anybody remember him?), she can "cloud men's minds". So maybe she can move undetected past guards/sentries/etc. Given this, it's not much of a stretch to imagine her accessing a locked armory, too.

As to the reason she pinched the gun in the first place...

I think it's possible she detected Early's presence - and threat - and proceeded to deal with the threat in the most direct fashion, namely giving him a fatal case of "lead poisoning." After "War Stories" we know she's capable. And she was just about to do it when Mal & Co discovered her; maybe she dropped her psychic guard for a moment, maybe to pin down Early's exact location or something.

I know Joss explains the "no touching guns" scene differently, but I wouldn't put a little misdirection past him, with such a major plot secret on the line. A little weak, maybe, but I'm keeping an open mind.

Plus maybe this is an example of a dissociative episode she experiences. Her training prompts her to deal with the external threat, almost as a separate identity, while the "original", little girl personality remains detached and clueless as to what her assassin-self is doing. I don't know if JW saw or read "The Bourne Identity", but the title character appears to have a great deal in common with River.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:36 PM

ZOID

Thanks karenkay99,

I know I've seen OiS at least 4 times and never caught that convo.

I'll have to watch it again and see if I can figure out what's been so consistently distracting me...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River? I thought she was a sweet girl. Of course, we were all sure she was crazy, too."

- Inara Reynolds, Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs
from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:47 PM

KURUKAMI

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Couldn't it have been the same gun she used in War Stories to shoot the three guards? Maybe she dropped it/hid it somewhere afterwords and picked it up later in OiS in her 'dream' state.

Ok, I know it's lame to respond to your own post, but I think I have evidence that the gun she holds in OiS is the same one she took from Kaylee in WarStories:

firefly.deadly-nightshade.net/images/warstories/index.php?p=warstories435.jpg&pg=8

firefly.deadly-nightshade.net/images/objectsinspace/index.php?p=objects081.jpg&pg=1

It certainly does look very similar. And that seems the most reasonable hypothesis as to where the gun came from -- she just hid it after the incident in "War Stories".

"Sir, I would like to gingerly point out that it is difficult for someone to be gently reassuring when they're holding three and a half feet of sharpened steel."

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 5:19 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

It looks similar, but I don't think it is the same gun, and someone else on a previous thread about this said it was not. Those two shots show different sides of the gun, and there are a few things about the shape and features of each gun that lead me to believe they are not the same. Perhaps they were meant to be the same gun as per the script, but someone in the prop department did not get it right if that is the case, IMO only of course.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 6:00 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I've just added an image to the Blue Sun Room, titled "River's Guns" - http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=1071 - where we can see the two guns at the same time to try and determine if they are the same. I still say they are not.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:24 PM

TIMBOBB

No one knows. The characters dont know. Jayne even says he does not leave his guns unlocked and loaded. It is a mystery to THEM and US.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:24 PM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE

[Edit: simulpost. I was responding to ecgordon.]

I agree. The sizes and colors are very similar, but if you look closely at the shapes, they're not even close. And I don't even think it really matters how she got the gun. (Ok, it matters to the rest of the crew, but not from a storytelling standpoint.) She managed to get her hands on a gun, either because someone else (presumably Jayne, who we already know doesn't actually lock up the guns in his bunk) was careless or because she used her mindreading powers to get to it. What's important is her reaction to it.

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 12:43 AM

JARED

im more confused about their confusion where she got it from. after "the message" and "out of gas" i get the impression that guns are lying around all over the ship. standing in the cockpit and feel like taking kaylee hostage? ohhh, look, a gun. just been gut shot and could need a weapon? ohh, look, there is one. it might be more confusing to hear someone say "i need a gun... why is there never a gun when you need to shoot someone?"

so in fact, that whole "where did she get the gun" seems more like the usual "oh damn, we screwed up.. quick, blame the least intelligent guy with the most guns".

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 2:07 AM

STATIC

I may be late in this, because I haven't read the entire thread, but I responded to the blue sun thingy with both pictures.

It is two different guns. The gun Kaylee starts out with, and then River, is a Colt M-1911 .45 with an extended barrel (for competition shooting), the gun in OiS is a Desert Eagle.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 2:40 AM

STATIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Jared:
im more confused about their confusion where she got it from. after "the message" and "out of gas" i get the impression that guns are lying around all over the ship. standing in the cockpit and feel like taking kaylee hostage? ohhh, look, a gun.

Re-watch the episode. You see Jayne in the background as he comes onto the bridge, he has a bundle in his hands which he places on that little table and unrolls. Those are HIS guns and he's getting ready for the inevitable confrontation.

Quote:
just been gut shot and could need a weapon? ohh, look, there is one.

Look closely, that gun is in a holster attached to the side of the mule, so I think you're mistaken in the theory that guns are just 'lying about' all over the ship. GRANTED, if it were my bird, I don't think I'd leave a gun loose in a holster on the mule, but that's what it was doing there.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:11 AM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE

Quote:
Look closely, that gun is in a holster attached to the side of the mule, so I think you're mistaken in the theory that guns are just 'lying about' all over the ship. GRANTED, if it were my bird, I don't think I'd leave a gun loose in a holster on the mule, but that's what it was doing there.

If I were Mal, I'd plant a gun right about there...

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:22 AM

STATIC

Oh, I agree . . .it's a very practical place to have one, indeed. And upon reflection, given that they didn't know about River's little 'ballet dance' during "War Stories" and such, they don't have a reason to think that keeping a gun unsecured in that holster would be a bad idea.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 4:09 AM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE

No, I meant I'd put one just out of sight when dealing with a guy I didn't really trust and there was no one else on the ship. You know, right about where I'd fall if the guy decided to shoot or hit me. Under normal circumstances, I'd keep the guns locked up. (Also, River hadn't shot the guys in War Stories when OoG happened, so there wouldn't really be any more reason to worry about guns lying around than "we have people on the ship who don't necessarily know how to use a gun,, and we should avoid accidents." Which is plenty of a reason for me.)

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 5:15 AM

JARED

Quote:
No, I meant I'd put one just out of sight when dealing with a guy I didn't really trust and there was no one else on the ship.

true, but i dont think he's looking like someone knowing where to find it, but just happens to notice it. and its not that well hidden to be placed "just in case". except of course placing it there was on purpose so if they find it and complain he could just pretend he forgot that its there.

but i guess if you can read minds it doesnt really matter. shouldnt be hard to get a gun from a locker or jaynes bunk in that case.

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Sunday, April 18, 2004 7:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

The guns are different. Both guns ( from OiS and WS ) are indeed silver, and both do indeed have black gripping, but the barrels are different. Not proficient enough to tell which kind they are.. likely similar in calibur, but still. They ain't the same guns. The guns which most similar to each other are the one Mal has in OoG and what River finds in OiS.

Did I just repeat what was said up higer on this thread ? Heck , if so... never mind.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. Worked that out myself. "

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Monday, April 19, 2004 3:50 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Couldn't it have been the same gun she used in War Stories to shoot the three guards? Maybe she dropped it/hid it somewhere afterwords and picked it up later in OiS in her 'dream' state.

Ok, I know it's lame to respond to your own post, but I think I have evidence that the gun she holds in OiS is the same one she took from Kaylee in WarStories:

firefly.deadly-nightshade.net/images/warstories/index.php?p=warstories435.jpg&pg=8

firefly.deadly-nightshade.net/images/objectsinspace/index.php?p=objects081.jpg&pg=1

Static is correct. The weapon River uses in War Stories is a 1911 long slide .45. The weapon she picks up in OiS is a Desert Eagle .44.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Monday, April 19, 2004 6:02 AM

THEFOP

I always just assumed it had been put there by the pistol fairy. Good an explanation as any, really. Works, and at the same times makes no sense.

once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood

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Monday, April 19, 2004 8:00 AM

EMBERS

I always just assumed that Jayne had taken out all his guns to clean them and left one of the smaller ones lying around...
of course he said he didn't, but you can't expect him to admit leaving his toys lying around...

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Monday, April 19, 2004 8:49 AM

SHINY

What about those lockers that Book took the weapons out of in War Stories? Can't imagine it would be hard for River to get into those, even if they were locked (what 'secret combination' is safe from River?)

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Monday, April 19, 2004 9:00 AM

EMBERS

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Monday, April 19, 2004 11:13 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I always just assumed that Jayne had taken out all his guns to clean them and left one of the smaller ones lying around...
of course he said he didn't, but you can't expect him to admit leaving his toys lying around...

I think the quoted dialogue makes it pretty clear that it was one of Jayne's weapons, but he didn't leave it lying around. Mal accepts this, adding more (pardon the pun) ammo to his theory that River is a reader.

"I threw up on your bed"

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