River's Brain by CharlieBZ

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River's Brain

POSTED BY: CHARLIEBZ
UPDATED: Monday, December 3, 2007 14:22
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Saturday, December 1, 2007 9:35 AM

I know that Simon stated that River had always been highly intuitive but do you think her psychic abilities were created by the brain surgeries? I mean, did the people who experiment on her create her "gifts"? Was her intuitiveness a reason she was targeted for experimentation which sought to hone in on certain abilities? Or was she already naturally psychic and the surgeries were an attempt to figure out why she had these abilties?

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Saturday, December 1, 2007 9:38 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

The "River Tam Sessions" (those web videos to promote Serenity) indicate she was very intuitive before the bad guys did anything to her. It actually seems to be part of the reason she was chosen. The interviewer seemed interested in her intuition anyway, when River mentioned how Simon said she was "born with the third eye" and hated the way she knew what girls he liked.

So my vote is she was psychic before, but not nearly to the same degree she is now. I think the surgeries were to augment her natural talent - at the expense of her sanity.

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Saturday, December 1, 2007 10:10 AM

MERRYK

Well, to be realistic...her 'psychic' powers would probably have been a result of the brain surgery. We have to accept that intuition is stronger in the 'Verse than in reality, but once we do that, we can make a fairly accurate guess about what happened to her. Before the Academy, River was incredibly intelligent and very attuned to the feelings (if not exactly the thoughts) of others. The Alliance was probably trying to create special assassins, and wanted to try out a psychic one; hence they found someone with high intuition, and started playing around to make it more powerful. I know that Simon says that her amygdala filters emotions, but in real life it doesn't. However, it is responsible for fear and aggression, and especially the linking of emotions with memories. So let's just say Simon forgot Brain Anatomy 101. If they wanted an assassin, it would make sense to try and remove the part of the brain that allows River to feel fear and aggression; she would then be more likely to just follow orders. It obviously didn't work, and had more of the opposite reaction of making her extra-terrified (something that sometimes happens in real life with brain surgery). Anyway, the real reason that River "feels everything; she can't not" is probably due to some other aspect of her brain surgery. They probably worked on stimulating the areas of her brain that process non-verbal communication. Assuming that they were already strong to begin with, stimulating them even more could lead to such strong intuition that River could now read thoughts. Unfortunately, they seemed to have made it so that that part of her brain is constantly stimulated, making it so that she is constantly aware of unconscious thoughts, feelings, what have you.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, December 1, 2007 2:03 PM

JOSSISAGOD

It's my belief that, River was VERY highly intuitive, before The Alliance got to her. Then, as was stated in the episode "Ariel," The Alliance did something to River that completed her trip down psyhic nutcase lane.

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JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

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Sunday, December 2, 2007 2:02 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBZ:

I know that Simon stated that River had always been highly intuitive but do you think her psychic abilities were created by the brain surgeries? I mean, did the people who experiment on her create her "gifts"? Was her intuitiveness a reason she was targeted for experimentation which sought to hone in on certain abilities? Or was she already naturally psychic and the surgeries were an attempt to figure out why she had these abilties?

It is my understanding that Simon was less than entirely forthcoming when he said River was "highly intuitive," so as not to let on to the full extent of him knowing how psychic River really was (he was, after all, put on the spot a bit); and that in fact River has always been psychic. Also, I don't think the Alliance did anything to her brain, in terms of making her psychic--even 500 years in the future that still sounds like science-fiction. What they DID do, however, is mess with her lymbic system, so she wouldn't be able to surpress her 'intuitive' nature ("She can't not feel"). And perhaps messed with other areas of her brain too, so as to augment sensitivity or downplay certain blocks. But no more than that. YMMV, of course.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, December 2, 2007 4:33 PM

CHARLIEBZ

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
The "River Tam Sessions" (those web videos to promote Serenity) indicate she was very intuitive before the bad guys did anything to her.

Thanks for the reference. I need to go watch the sessions but I've always avoided them. Me not like to see poor River traumatized.

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Sunday, December 2, 2007 7:00 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

The original shooting script for the movie says "The neural stripping gives them heightened cognitive reception, but also destabalizes their own reality matrix. It manifests as borderline schizophrenia... which at this point is the price for being truly psychic."
So, I'd say that yes, what they did to her brain was meant to heighten her cognitive reception.

I am selfish, impatient, and a little insecure. I make mistakes. I am out of control. And sometimes I'm a little hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.

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Sunday, December 2, 2007 7:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

She would have been psychic prior to the academy, but training can help develop the sense, much like we subvert it. The brain surgery would not have been able to create such a thing, but may have helped with training.
However, although there seems to be some understanding somewhere on this show about psychic phenomena, Joss has made statements indicating it is not he who understands it, and he has apparently classified psychic ability as "sci fi" or "fantasy". So what the scripts say probably won't mesh with reality as much.

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Sunday, December 2, 2007 8:12 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT

Two words: Gene tampering. Genetic enhancement. Two super geniuses in one family, parents wanting the respect of their friends (what a way to keep up with the Jones'), enough money to do it and get away with it, worries about their interaction with police. Interesting theory anyway.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 1:25 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Gene tampering or meddling isn't really needed. The majority of genius is derived from genetics, as in heredity. Both Tam parents are already apparently quite intelligent. Neither seems to likely to try and train River to adapt and expand her Extra Sensory Perceptions. It is not unusual to have multiple extraordinarily gifted offspring in the same family or extended family, plus the parents did seem to emphasize the progression of learning for their children.
ESP already is present and trainable now, and this verse is 500 years in the future.
The 2 biggest surprises I see in this future are that psychics are not fairly common, and the derth of advancement of medical knowledge, procedures and technology.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 2:20 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
So, I'd say that yes, what they did to her brain was meant to heighten her cognitive reception.

Imagine how silly they'd feel if they found out they could get the same results with a satellite dish and signal amplifier.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Monday, December 3, 2007 3:45 AM

ANDMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I know that Simon says that her amygdala filters emotions, but in real life it doesn't. However, it is responsible for fear and aggression, and especially the linking of emotions with memories.

I do believe that in "Ariel", when he notices that they stripped her amygdala he says "You know how you get scared, or worried and you don't want to be scared or worried so you try and forget it and put it to the back of your mind? Your amygdala is what lets you do it" So he started talking about the amygdala specifically, and its essentially a filter for emotions, just not all of them, but more likely part of a larger system that controls EVERY emotion.

Anybody who disagrees with any of this violently can do so. But no matter what you do, "You can't take the sky from me".

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Monday, December 3, 2007 7:02 AM

MERRYK

It's possible that the amygdala could be considered as part of a larger system that controls all emotions, but it's primary function is to add anger and fear to situations...most people who have had their amygdala removed are passive and tolerant to extreme levels, though occasionally it has the opposite effect. The amygdala does not lessen those emotions, it decides how much to increase them. Simon, though, especially as a trauma surgeon to whom psychology is probably not his strongest point, would realistically start wondering why River was still feeling emotions after having her amygdala stripped, not have an "Ah!" moment of suddenly knowing why she feels so many emotions. Especially since that scene seems to be Simon's stream of consciousness, as he stumbles and breaks off as he talks, so his first thought would realistically be confusion and finding an explanation for the strange behavior. IMHO, of course.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, December 3, 2007 2:22 PM

FREELANCERTEX

A stimulated amygdala will increase emotional reactions such as fear or aggression, but it all depends on the person. It has a lot to do with the framing effect (glass half empty half full), on how description influences choice, and whether or not you have an emotional reaction at all. Everyone's brain is wired differently, so everyone will have a different reaction to the same stimulus. Conversely, a lesioned (damaged) amygdala will, as Merry said, result in a loss of fear or aggression. It doesn't necessarily filter so much as choose, and it seems to be specific to the emotions of fear and aggression directly I don't know about other emotions, whether indirectly or not at all (quoting my psych professor's notes here).

__________________________
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You can't take the sky from me...

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