FTL? by Staleek

Quote:
Originally posted by Staleek:
From what I have been able to tell, FTL is not something that is used on Firefly, or on any ship in the 'verse. What kind of drive system is in place here on these ships? Also, while the idea of generational ships is not a new one, it is interesting how it has played out here. Is it known whether this system that they inhabit was discovered before they left Earth, or was it something that they stumbled on in their travels?

They found the system first, at least that's the impression I get. There is no FTL, this has been stated within canon.

As for what drive they have, that would be conjecture. The Tenth Crewmember documentry indicates that it's some form of Fusion (though that's a throw away comment from a member of the art team, it's the best I've heard), and from watching the show Serenity seems to pulse the engine for acceleration, rather than using a sustained burn. So Nuclear Fusion-Pulse like some forms of the Orion project? I believe there's a line about Fuel cells, and you'd certainly use fuel cells in pulse propulsion ('burning' one cell produces one pulse). Maybe something like the mini-mag Orion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-Mag_Orion

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 9:46 AM

THEREALME

I believe that the ships of the verse have some kind of gravity-based drive. When the engine did not work in the flashback of "Out Of Gas" Kaylee talked about the "grav boot". It is possible that this drive can act to reduce the mass of the ship to make their reaction drives more efficient. It is certain that artificial gravity exists.

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 10:38 AM

DERANGEDMILK

Clearly, the two series are related. BSG takes place many thousand years after Firefly/Serenity. When the Earth was used up everyone left in huge generation ships and travelled across the galaxy until they found "the verse." Over an unspecified amount of time a new polytheistic religion developed and the alliance gave way to a colonial government centered around 12 of the major planets. Also, during this time technology advanced including the development of the FTL drive and AI (the cylons). When Galactica gets back to earth they will be attacked by the cylons. Galactica will when but be destroyed and the fleet will land. The ships will be cannibalized as the colonials try to survive and technology will regress to what we call the Greek and other early civilizations. Then history as we know it will continue until we get back to the point where generation ships leave in search of "the verse."

All of this has happened before...and will happen again.
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:50 AM

Quote:
derangedmilk wrote:
Saturday, December 22, 2007 10:38
Clearly, the two series are related. BSG takes place many thousand years after Firefly/Serenity. When the Earth was used up everyone left in huge generation ships and travelled across the galaxy until they found "the verse." Over an unspecified amount of time a new polytheistic religion developed and the alliance gave way to a colonial government centered around 12 of the major planets. Also, during this time technology advanced including the development of the FTL drive and AI (the cylons). When Galactica gets back to earth they will be attacked by the cylons. Galactica will when but be destroyed and the fleet will land. The ships will be cannibalized as the colonials try to survive and technology will regress to what we call the Greek and other early civilizations. Then history as we know it will continue until we get back to the point where generation ships leave in search of "the verse."

All of this has happened before...and will happen again.
-e

Wow...

Yep that's all I can say to that.

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:00 PM

ROCKETJOCK

It's definitely cannon that there is no FTL drive, but there does seem to be some form of FTL communication system--the Cortex allows real-time communication over distances that would involve time-lag otherwise.

Specifically, in the Big Damn Movie, the operative has a real-time conversation with Mal while being unaware of his location. If the comm system was not FTL, this would place them in relatively close proximity. (Even communication from Earth to Luna involves a 1/3 second lag, and we're next-door neighbors.)

Mal is also able to speak with Mr. Universe from Miranda with no noticeable lag time. QED, FTl Comm.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:40 PM

NBZ

There is no ftl travel. As for communications, there probably is not either.

In the Pilot episode Serenity, Serenity has to be "in range" to get a vid feed from Patience.

In the movie the worlds where this takes place are only separated by a few hours travel between them (Mal while probably on Haven - "We're only but a few hours out", and the distance from Mr Universe's world to Miranda has to be short enough to allow a reasonable chase without Serenity getting caught - they are not too far ahead of the Reaver fleet. ), so it does not have to be a massive distance.

Then add a dose of convenience to that. It would not be much fun waiting a few seconds in between each reply.

About Firefly "clearly" being in the same verse as BSG... erm a polite no thankyou. Different universes totally. (In BSG the "lost people" or whatever they are called do not leave earth, but go to earth.)

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:49 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
There is no ftl travel. As for communications, there probably is not either.

In the Pilot episode Serenity, Serenity has to be "in range" to get a vid feed from Patience.

Could you please explain to me why that would be a result of the signal's speed instead of, say, it's strength?

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 1:40 PM

NBZ

It is an assumption. Without being any expert whatsoever in the subject, I would think that if a signal can get from one place to another which is of enough quality that it can be used for basic communications, it is also good enough for more advanced communications such as video(bandwidth permitting - which ti should as the transmitters and receivers are both capable enough for video).

That leaves (in my simple world) time delay as the reason for needing to be in range.

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
It's definitely cannon that there is no FTL drive, but there does seem to be some form of FTL communication system--the Cortex allows real-time communication over distances that would involve time-lag otherwise.

There's also lines in Serenity that indicates the opposite, namely Mal asks if their in communication range so he can speak to patience. I'd be surprised if this was a case of signal strength, any transmitter worth it's salt in space should be strong enough to reach across the system. Of course this makes things more difficult when considering Out of Gas, since they're out of comms range there.

My personal solution would be considering the Cortex, it makes sense that the cortex would use relay satellites, so ships may have lower power transmitters, needing to get a signal only to the nearest relay. In out of gas they're away from the cortex network, so the comms system hasn't the power to reach the nearest satellite. Range is still then a question of light speed delay.

Quote:
Specifically, in the Big Damn Movie, the operative has a real-time conversation with Mal while being unaware of his location. If the comm system was not FTL, this would place them in relatively close proximity. (Even communication from Earth to Luna involves a 1/3 second lag, and we're next-door neighbors.)

Mal is also able to speak with Mr. Universe from Miranda with no noticeable lag time. QED, FTl Comm.

I think these are more the dictates of Movie time frames. We could infer that there's FTL communication in order to explain away that inconsistency, but I'm not sure that's enough. Maybe Joss just cut out the pauses so we wouldn't be bored

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:31 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

Nope , no FTL...

Serenity herself has the Standard

Radion-Accelerator Core , class code

03-K64 , 'Firefly'...

But , there is mass-reduction via manipulation of

G-force , as Miss Kaylee refers to " re-wiring

the grav-thrust "...

As for radio and vid Comms , one has to

have 'line -of-sight' between transceivers , in

the absence of a suitable repeater-sat...

That's why Mal asks about whether they're in

range to talk to Patience , 'cause with the bulk

of say , a planet or moon in the way , they ain't

talkin' to nobody...

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:29 PM

STALEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Nope , no FTL...

But , there is mass-reduction via manipulation of

G-force , as Miss Kaylee refers to " re-wiring

the grav-thrust "...

So, not being a physicist in any way, shape or form, is this suggestive of the idea that the drive uses a planetary body's gravity well to propel it, at least in some way?

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." - Thoreau

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:39 PM

I think it implies the writers were not physicists either. But that's ok, we still love them.

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Saturday, December 22, 2007 6:42 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

There is no FTL, this has been stated within canon.

When, I don't remember anything of this sort.

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
When, I don't remember anything of this sort.

Well, I'm fairly sure if it's not stated it's certainly alluded to in the show, and Joss has stated it. I'd say a remark by the series creator can be accepted as 'in canon'.

Beyond that, have you seen anybody use FTL? Also comments within the show indicate more conventional drives. Consider also Serenity (Pilot), if you've got a Faster Than Light drive, when is a better time to use it than when an Alliance Cruiser is bearing down on you?

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:02 AM

DERANGEDMILK

Quote:
Originally posted by StrangeBird:

Wow...

Yep that's all I can say to that.

Make sense though, don't it?
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:32 AM

Quote:
derangedmilk wrote:
Sunday, December 23, 2007 08:02

Quote:
Originally posted by StrangeBird:

Wow...

Yep that's all I can say to that.

Make sense though, don't it?
-e

Not really... I meant wow as in WOW I thought I had alot of free time for crazy think'n.

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:11 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Well, I'm fairly sure if it's not stated it's certainly alluded to in the show, and Joss has stated it. I'd say a remark by the series creator can be accepted as 'in canon'.

We don't see eye to eye on this one. Joss has supported other things that have created contradictions. So, I'm not really going to be convinced by him saying something if it wasn't said in the show.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Beyond that, have you seen anybody use FTL? Also comments within the show indicate more conventional drives. Consider also Serenity (Pilot), if you've got a Faster Than Light drive, when is a better time to use it than when an Alliance Cruiser is bearing down on you?

Just because something isn't used/wasn't seen, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Comments in the show regarding such things, in context, only refer to there own situation. Not to the 'verse as a whole.

Such drives, could simply be too expensive to afford. The crew was living hand to mouth on a piece of go-se after all.

Personally, because of the above, I'm going to consider this question still "up in the air" without an answer in sight. Just my opinion.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:40 PM

You know I always say "Who's the dork double posting?".... now it's me. Haha

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:40 PM

Honestly, I'm with you SigmaNunki. Joss did say they don't have it but he never said they never did. Also just because Joss said it then doesn't mean he wouldn't put it in later. Also I personaly feel if they ever had it it's either impractical now, to expensive or requires something non-present in the paticular system they are in. Some form of rare mineral that allowed them to sustain FTL drives for extended periods of time making interstellar travel possible. Which brings up something else I was wondering about. Joss mention somewhere that just because it's 500 years in the future doesn't really mean it's 500 year from now. Could be they stopped counting time in-route to their new home or if they did use FTL that would have brought up the whole reletivity angle and 50 years for them could have been thousands of years to anyone remaining on earth. So if FTL travel was used or is used that would change things in the 'verse as we know it. But like I said I'm really on the fence. Doubtful I will ever get off either since even if there are many more movies I seriously doubt Joss will use FTL or even tell enough of the story of the exodus from earth that was to let us know for sure. I do however seriously think that it's very unlikely they still have it if they ever did.

Ok that was a mess of a post but I'm dead tired so whatever.

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:53 PM

No FTL. The drive is explained, I don't recall where, probably the Official Companions. The speed is about 2 days per light-minute. The specific formula or explanation of the speed and limitations is written. This is of course the space speed, and when in atmo they switch to the thrusters and a different form of drive, also explained. The space speed equates to approx one light-second of distance per hour (5 light-seconds per 4 hours.) From our Earth to Sun is 16 days. (our sun's rays take 8 minutes to reach Earth).

They discovered the new verse before leaving. The terraforming took decades to accomplish, so the terraforming craft had to leave Earth decades before the colonists.

For comm, I figured some of the range limitations was for security. The security sync would need to have minimal delay to work, or else somebody could tap into the signal before the sending unit could stop the signal output. Talking to Patience and other criminal types would be done on secure comm link.
In BDM, the Operative wanted to deny a place of refuge for Serenity, from Haven to the Training House was only a few hours, and back the same, so comm wouldn't have been that far, and all the sites razed were probably the closest ones, within a few hours travel time since they escaped the Training House. The trip from Miranda to Mr Universe, as stated by River, was under 4 hours at maximum burn.

Somebody mentioned that watching delay woldn't be fun, but watching Mal and Inara squirm during delays would be entertaining, done the way of Joss, Morena, and Nathan. We've seen those cellular commercials for missed signals, and the results of - would those pre-date the release of BDM, or were they after BDM?

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:15 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

No FTL. The drive is explained, I don't recall where, probably the Official Companions.

Are you sure about that? Because, the description of one engine type does not the exclusion of everything else make. That is unless it is EXPLICITLY stated. Anything else is baseless inference.

----
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"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

No FTL. The drive is explained, I don't recall where, probably the Official Companions.

Are you sure about that? Because, the description of one engine type does not the exclusion of everything else make. That is unless it is EXPLICITLY stated. Anything else is baseless inference.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

IIRC, the formula stated was for Maximum theoretical speed, which not all engines would likely be capable of. They stated it as being a physics reality, but I suspect from the brief reading of it that it was falsified physics, just so Joss could sound "sciency". I thought it implied that Firefly class could accomplish this max speed, or near it - creating the "firefly effect" - but that greater mass cargo ships might not be able to. Hence, one of the selling points of this ancient relic class of a ship.
The explanation was also referring to the speed of the generational ship to get to the verse, which would have predated the Firefly class.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 1:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
We don't see eye to eye on this one. Joss has supported other things that have created contradictions. So, I'm not really going to be convinced by him saying something if it wasn't said in the show.

We're not talking about him supporting a contradiction, we're talking about him saying something doesn't exist within the universe he created, which has no evidence for existence within that universe apart from his say so. I'm just following where all the evidence leads.

Quote:
Just because something isn't used/wasn't seen, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Indeed, in the real world absence of proof is not proof of absence, but we're not talking about the real world. If FTL existed in the firefly canonic universe, we would have seen it. In a constructed universe saying "we haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist" means we can say anything exists in FireFly. We didn't see wood elves either...

Quote:
Comments in the show regarding such things, in context, only refer to there own situation. Not to the 'verse as a whole.

So? Having no comments that refer to FTL lends credence to the no FTL position regardless of context.

Quote:
Such drives, could simply be too expensive to afford. The crew was living hand to mouth on a piece of go-se after all.

But we'd still see them. If FTL exists, you can bet the Alliance would put it on their big bastard cruisers (which is one thing I find funny, the Cruisers are large city ships that carry smaller craft, surely a better term would be carrier?). They obviously don't, as they could have used it to prevent Serenity's escape and mount a rescue mission for the 'cry baby' ship in the pilot. If FTL existed, the one place you can be sure of it's existence, would be on one of the Alliances major military vessels.

Quote:
Personally, because of the above, I'm going to consider this question still "up in the air" without an answer in sight. Just my opinion.

If you want, but all the evidence points one way. The available evidence might not be conclusive (though I think it's as conclusive as you could possibly expect from a fictional universe), but all the available evidence points one way. There's evidence suggestive of a lack of FTL technology, but no evidence of it's existence.

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They stated it as being a physics reality, but I suspect from the brief reading of it that it was falsified physics, just so Joss could sound "sciency".

I vote falsified physics, since no rocket has an inherent maximum speed. They have maximum specific impulses, which dictate how much DeltaV the rocket has for a given mass ratio (percentage of propellant to non-propellant mass) but theoretically any rocket could reach high fractions of lightspeed if it could carry enough propellant.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:04 AM

TDBROWN

Some people just can't seem to escape the influence of Star Trek. They seem to want FTL, Aliens, etc. That's not what the Sereniverse is about. Problems are solved based on emotions and feelings instead of technology. Joss clearly wanted the 'verse to be everything that Trek isn't, so let's not go where the show wasn't intended to go. Yes, the science is shakey at times, but Trek science is not the way. JMHO....

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:14 AM

GROTZ

Quote:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because something isn't used/wasn't seen, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed, in the real world absence of proof is not proof of absence, but we're not talking about the real world. If FTL existed in the firefly canonic universe, we would have seen it. In a constructed universe saying "we haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist" means we can say anything exists in FireFly. We didn't see wood elves either...

Still, laser weaponry was not hinted at all, until episode Trash and further in Heart of gold.
And who know what secret technology Blue Sun or The Allience is hiding.
I say it is possible.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:43 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I don't believe that absence of proof is proof of absence. That said absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Not proof by any means, but evidence.

Is it possible, in terms of what we have been presented, that FTL drives exist in the Firefly verse? Yup. They could even be possessed by the aliens that Joss also said didn't exist in the verse.

The question is, why would you believe in it in the total lack of anything even suggesting it is true?

I know of no reason.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grotz:
Still, laser weaponry was not hinted at all, until episode Trash and further in Heart of gold.
And who know what secret technology Blue Sun or The Allience is hiding.
I say it is possible.

Firstly directed energy weapons are shown in the opening sequence of the pilot.

Secondly, so what? Your comparing laser weapons being shown, to FTL NOT being shown, it basically proves my point.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
I don't believe that absence of proof is proof of absence. That said absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Not proof by any means, but evidence.

Is it possible, in terms of what we have been presented, that FTL drives exist in the Firefly verse? Yup. They could even be possessed by the aliens that Joss also said didn't exist in the verse.

The question is, why would you believe in it in the total lack of anything even suggesting it is true?

I know of no reason.

I thought I'd reply and quote to do that thing I don't generally like doing, but feel I must because of how well you put it:
I agree entirely and this is exactly what I was trying to say.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 12:03 PM

PROTOTYPE7

I'm with you on this one Brown.

Now don't anybody missunderstand me. There's nothing I like more than to debate scientific theories, especially concerning FTL or time travel or a whole bunch of other things!

What I am saying is that Firefly definately made an attempt not to get hung up on technical definitions of theoretical systems. They do use alot of terms throughout the show like grav boot, thermal cap, etc... but they're all just plot devices I expect.

I'm not saying anybody shouldn't discuss it. But I don't think we should be discussing anything being canon 'cause, that ain't what Firefly is about. It's about the people and they're struggle. Not about grav-a-metric fields and the like.

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm a trek fan too and while alot of people say that trek turned to technical, I say bring it on! I love that stuff. But for me personally, if I want tech I'll watch trek... if I want a good story and lots of amazing characters, I'm going Firefly!

But to toss in a bone to the discussion... from watching the movie they mention that they found a new SYSTEM, with dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. And then when you see the map of the verse that the teacher is reffering to, it's definately a solar system type environment. FTL drive would mean travel times in minutes or up to one hour, maybe a bit more, but not the hours or days that Wash usually reffers to. (yes I'm aware that nobody ever said how big the system is.)

Not to mention that engaging FTL drive inside a solar system is portrayed as a BAD idea in most sci-fi... for obvious reasons.

my two hundreths of a dollar.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 3:40 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Staleek:
Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Nope , no FTL...

But , there is mass-reduction via manipulation of

G-force , as Miss Kaylee refers to " re-wiring

the grav-thrust "...

So, not being a physicist in any way, shape or form, is this suggestive of the idea that the drive uses a planetary body's gravity well to propel it, at least in some way?

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." - Thoreau

I'd say it's certainly a possiblity , if not an

outright suggestion...There's also the

possibility of using 'zero-point' energy in some

way , but that's nothing more than speculation...

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" Quiet desperation is the English way..."
--Pink Floyd
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Tuesday, December 25, 2007 4:33 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by prototype7:

But to toss in a bone to the discussion... from watching the movie they mention that they found a new SYSTEM, with dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. And then when you see the map of the verse that the teacher is reffering to, it's definately a solar system type environment. FTL drive would mean travel times in minutes or up to one hour, maybe a bit more, but not the hours or days that Wash usually reffers to. (yes I'm aware that nobody ever said how big the system is.)

I agree on the predominance of evidence against the existence of FTL drives in the 'Verse. However, in "The Train Job" the Blue Hands guy clearly says:

"We didn't fly eighty-six million miles to track down a box of band-aids."

Eighty-six million miles, wow, that would take a long time without FTL (and certainly give new meaning to the phrase: keep flyin'). Even *with* FTL, at 300,000 km/s, that's a 7 minute ride (probably only something like 20 seconds at "Ludicrous speed," but still).

Since it takes the light of our sun to travel about ten minutes to earth, being a rough 180,000,000 km away from us, an Alliance Cruiser being several hours out from them, assuming they were traveling within the same solar system, would likely go at a speed -- if I got the math right, here -- of about 12,000 km/s. All depending on actual distance and how many precise hours, of course. But that seems about the right order of magnitude.

--
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Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:00 PM

I think an AU, or distance to our Sun, is about 149,600,000 Km, or 92,960,000 miles, takes about 8.31 minutes for light to travel, and 16 days for craft in this verse.

That makes 86 million miles about 15 days travel.

Anybody remember where that is written? 16 days to travel one Astronomical Unit? I can't find it or recall where I read it. I skimmed all through the comapanion books.

Apologies if this is already discussed, but this has bothered me:
In The Message, on St Albans Book points out that Womack is from the Silverhold Colonies, putting him 8 solar systems out of his jurisdiction.
Huh? I thought this verse was all one solar system. The Unified Planets of the Alliance include St Albans and Silverhold, so i thought they'd be in the same solar syatem - but now they're 9 solar systems apart?

I had wondered if this solar system had multiple suns - which would help heat dozens of planets and hundreds of moons, but this would still be one system, not 9 different systems, right?

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:34 AM

Quote:
"We didn't fly eighty-six million miles to track down a box of band-aids."

Eighty-six million miles, wow, that would take a long time without FTL (and certainly give new meaning to the phrase: keep flyin'). Even *with* FTL, at 300,000 km/s, that's a 7 minute ride (probably only something like 20 seconds at "Ludicrous speed," but still).

Eighty-six million miles isn't very far in astronomical terms. It's a little under one Astronomical Unit (which is the distance from the sun to a massless body prescribing a circular orbit around the sun of ~365days, not the average distance between Earth and Sun), which is 149,597,870.691km (the Earth fluctuates between 146 to 152 million Km). This lends credence to the one system theory, since the Alliance Cruiser (the Agamemnon?) is supposed to be out in the sticks, while we can be fairly sure the Bluehands came from a central planet.

As for taking a long time without FTL, not really. If you're talking Hohmann minimum DeltaV transfers it will, probably getting on to a year of travel time, but assuming an advanced drive capable of prescribing a Brachistochrone trajectory (essentially you accelerate half way to the destination, then turn around and decelerate to make the intercept) you'd be surprised how quickly you'd get there. Assuming a constant 1g of acceleration (which given that there is anti-gravity and 'inertial-dampening' in Firefly is by no means a maximum) an advanced Fusion drive could make the trip in ~2.75 Days.

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
In The Message, on St Albans Book points out that Womack is from the Silverhold Colonies, putting him 8 solar systems out of his jurisdiction.
Huh? I thought this verse was all one solar system. The Unified Planets of the Alliance include St Albans and Silverhold, so i thought they'd be in the same solar syatem - but now they're 9 solar systems apart?

I don't think he say's solar systems, I think he says system. Solar wouldn't make any sense anyway, there's only one solar system, and it's the system orbiting the star Sol. System could easily be the term used to discuss the moons orbiting a gas giant, or any series of moons really. Maybe there are 8 planets orbiting the local star between Silverhold and St Albans.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:50 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Apologies if this is already discussed, but this has bothered me:
In The Message, on St Albans Book points out that Womack is from the Silverhold Colonies, putting him 8 solar systems out of his jurisdiction.
Huh?

No he doesn't. He says systems, not solar systems. Now I go to school at the University of Southern Maine, which is part of the University of Maine System, which is part of the Maine educational system, which is part of the national educational system, which is based on the Earth (as you might have guessed), which is part of the Earth-moon system, which is part of the solar system.

There is no indication what Book means by System but, for obvious reasons, it probably isn't solar systems.

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:24 PM

Alright, I have my set lent out again, so If Book spoke "eight systems" then I have to take your word for it. However, I'm still referring to the script, which still makes a valid poijnt of conflict. My script in the Companion Vol 2 says "That puts you about eight solar systems out of your jurisdiction."
Same thing in the sript here:
http://firefly.girven.org/scripts/firefly-115.htm

So I still find it confusing, quoting 8 solar systems in alliance, when I thought there was one solar system. And I did think there could be multiple suns (at least 2) in a solar system.
I'll try to check the actual spoken line when I get my DVDs back.

If you're looking at that script, you might notice what the script says in the flashback scene where Zoe saves Tracey's bean-eating life. Script says Mal enters screaming, right after Zoe tells Tracey a lesson. Remember what words Nathan uses when screaming? I always thought that funny.

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Same thing in the sript here:
http://firefly.girven.org/scripts/firefly-115.htm

That is very different to what appears in the episode.

Quote:
So I still find it confusing, quoting 8 solar systems in alliance, when I thought there was one solar system. And I did think there could be multiple suns (at least 2) in a solar system.

Solar system isn't a generic term for all star systems, it's specific to the star System orbiting the star Sol (latin for: Sun), which is why it's the Solar System, not A Solar System. Even if he did say Solar System, it's a nonsense term because there's only one Solar System, and they've left it long behind. There also can't be multiple Suns in a Star System, because the Sun is the name of one specific star. Other Stars have different names, like Alpha Centauri, Proxima Centauri, Bernards Star etc.

Having said that, watching that scene on my own set the word System isn't mentioned, solar or otherwise. What Book actually says is "eight sectors".

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:35 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Having said that, watching that scene on my own set the word System isn't mentioned, solar or otherwise. What Book actually says is "eight sectors".

Yes, shooting scripts != canon! They are a valuable source of information, at times; especially in the area of figuring out what Joss initially had in mind for some scenes. But the aired episode is what goes, in terms of canon.

Thanks, btw, for your other contributions in this thread: it was most enlightening. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Yes, shooting scripts != canon! They are a valuable source of information, at times; especially in the area of figuring out what Joss initially had in mind for some scenes. But the aired episode is what goes, in terms of canon.

Yeah, there's all sorts of reasons as well of course. Joss doesn't write all the scripts, so there could be things in the script that he then decides on the day of filming, or during post, he doesn't want to appear in his 'Verse.

Quote:
Thanks, btw, for your other contributions in this thread: it was most enlightening. :)

No problem, it's given me something to do while in bed ill over the Christmas period. Not to mention I'm particularly interested in real space drives, since I'm writing a book on the subject :).

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:26 PM

I have looked for and not found the printed formula I saw for max travel speed in this verse.
However, I did run across another reference of Firefly's speed.
In BDM River states that from Miranda to Mr. Universe is 367,442 miles and at maximum burn Serenity can get there in under 4 hours. This translates to faster than 91,650 miles per hour, and also less than 122,480 mph (or else it would be 3 hours.)
This means less than 1,000 hours per AU, or about 40 days. It's still at least 30 days.
With the formula I can't relocate stating max speed is 16 days per AU, this means max speed - likely many Alliance craft - is at least 2 times faster than Serenity's speed at "max burn" and is more like 2.5 times Serenity's speed.

Hope this helps. Still looking for that dang energy/speed formula I read.

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:47 PM

BROWNCOAT2007

lol, don't mean to hijack the techy thread and all...

But every time I see that title, I think of the "computer speak" For The Loss... just wanted to point it out s'all...

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Friday, January 11, 2008 12:22 PM

IMNOTHERE

Various bits:

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Are you sure about that? Because, the description of one engine type does not the exclusion of everything else make.

Trouble is, FTL is widely believed to be fundamentally impossible, so in a given SciFi universe "no FTL" is what a scientist would call the the "null hypothesis".

According to General Relativity, FTL travel is equivalent to time-travel and lets you create all sorts of impossible causality violations. If you allow FTL you have to start contriving a whole set of bizzarre and arbitrary physical laws to prevent Mal becominmg his own grandfather.

If you apply Occams Razor (put crudely, always take the simplest valid explanation) then FTL is deeply implausible, whatever unobtanium-fueled magic space-warp jump drive you postulate.

Apparent instances of FTL communication in Firefly could just be sloppy writing. Some SciFi writers use the idea of "quantum entanglement" - which is a real phenomenon, the effects of which do seem to propagate FTL - as a way of FTL comms. In fact, this is central to the very real technology of "quantum cryptography" which has been demonstrated experimentally and will be commercially available Real Soon Now. Sadly, in this case there *is* a well established set of bizzarre rules - quantum mechanics - to get in the way and all you can "transmit" FTL is a random number "key" that conveys no information until the encoded message, following along at good 'ol 3x10^8 m/s catches up (and then only in the impractical "thought experiment" version - the workable version needs several exchanges over a conventional comms link just to agree on the key - the magic that "entanglement" brings to the party is that its impossible to evesdrop on the process).

As for the shape of the 'Verse and the number of stars... "Serenity" pretty much stated that it was a single - "solar" system but with "dozens of planets and hundreds of moons".

Now - imagine a star, somewhat larger than ours, so that the "goldilocks" zone - where the temperature is just right for habitable planets that look suspiciously like the coast of California - is big enough to cover the "central worlds" and ensure high property prices that keep out the hoi poloi.

Now, further out you have the Jupiter-like "gas giants" which have dozens of moons each. However, that far out they would tend to be far too cold for life (like the moons of Jupiter and Saturn). Howver, if - when the system formed - one or two of the planets got *much* bigger than Jupiter then they could have ignited to form stars, even without a helping hand from a black monolith. Perhaps that could make the other gas-giant moons warm enough to be habitable? The distances to the "outer stars" would change dramatically as they orbited, so such moons would have extreme, variable climates and probably end up looking like, well, the interior of California... Hmm.

Works for me!

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Friday, January 11, 2008 2:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
In BDM River states that from Miranda to Mr. Universe is 367,442 miles and at maximum burn Serenity can get there in under 4 hours. This translates to faster than 91,650 miles per hour, and also less than 122,480 mph (or else it would be 3 hours.)
This means less than 1,000 hours per AU, or about 40 days. It's still at least 30 days.
With the formula I can't relocate stating max speed is 16 days per AU, this means max speed - likely many Alliance craft - is at least 2 times faster than Serenity's speed at "max burn" and is more like 2.5 times Serenity's speed.

Well, that's fine if Serenity uses some sort of reactionless drive that can go from 0-max instantly, but if she needs time to accelerate, there's no such thing as a maximum speed, only maximum acceleration. In other words you can't extrapolate linearly like that. At any rate those numbers sound a little low, that distance would mean Mr Universe's Moon is in Orbit of Miranda, which sort of brings in to question why Mr Universe hasn't become Reaver chow and how come Miranda is still secret? I'm pretty sure that line is cut from the final movie, and for good reason.

At any rate, the relevent equation to get the acceleration is:
a=(4d)/t^2

For your numbers (distance in meters and time in seconds) that equates to:
a=(4*591,340,578)/14,400^2=~11.4ms=~1.16g

Which would mean that Serenity could traverse an AU in:
t=2*sqrt[d/a]=2*sqrt[149,598,000,000/11.4]=229,108=~63.5 Hours or about 2.5 days.

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Friday, January 11, 2008 2:26 PM