What are Brown Coats to do? by Hixie129

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What are Brown Coats to do?

POSTED BY: HIXIE129
UPDATED: Saturday, January 5, 2008 14:36
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 9856
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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:12 PM

Our General, the Fearless Leader, the Head Brown Coat, the Creator has gone over to the Alliance!
He is on the FOX payroll and an employee of FOX, a loyal Alliance solider. The General is now back with the people who I thought were the enemy for the last few years. Who are the Brown Coats fighting, when was the formal surrender? Where was the address to the troops?

Surely the General should address the troops and thank them for the fight all these years, thank them for their time and MONEY and emotional support. Shouldn’t the General say something to the troops that it’s OVER! The General has surrendered, the General has switched sides and is now wearing the Alliance uniform…. Shouldn’t he tell the troops to go home and get on with their lives and raise their families? The General has moved on, he is Alliance now, what are Brown Coats to do?

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:40 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

We follow Joss, of course. There are new people in the programming department at FOX, at least Joss says so, and he says he's happy to be working with them.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:24 PM

PROTOTYPE7

I agree we shouldn't be so hard on this fact. Fox was afterall the network that gave birth to the verse in the first place... gave it a chance. Sure some short-sighted morons cancelled the show but, if the creator of the stories that we all love so much is working with them again, I don't think we oughta go picking fights.

I think the best thing for us to do is to continue to show our love and support for Joss and all of his new projects. It's kinda hard for execs to miss that we're still die hard for Firefly and ya never know what the future might hold.

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:31 PM

HIXIE129

So then, there is no more Alliance and we should forgive FOX for canceling Firefly even though we will never see the show again?

And all the letter writing, the buying of DVDs and tee shirts.. all of that was so that Joss can get another job creating a different show with the people HE told us were responsible for killing Firefly?..

I thought Brown Coats are about the verse not Dollhouse.. So I ask the question again What do Brown Coats Do? Should there be a formal surrender?

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:47 PM

BLACKADDER7

I think you have to separate the people from the entity. 'FOX' didn't cancel Firefly. A person did. It serves no real purpose to blame the entity for the shortsightedness of a single individual.

Think of it this way. If you eat at a restaurant, and the food stinks, but a few years later, the place is under new management with a new chef. Would you give the restaurant another chance? I probably would. Looks like Joss would too...

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:06 PM

PROTOTYPE7

I'd venture to say that Joss is far from an idiot. So I'm with him.
As far as the hole dollhouse thing I say this... if his new project works out, then who's to say he doesn't get a greenlight for something else that HE wants to do? I think dollhouse should get the same love that his past projects get from the browncoats. I didn't watch a single episode of Buffy... just not my deal. But I don't have anything bad to say about it. Just think of how many people that are Buffy fans might not have given this show a second thought if it weren't for Joss's name? But tons of them are now firefly fans.
If dollhouse does well, that's just more people to add to the firefly pot. More people equals more money, more money equals cha-ching for a network willing to bring back our favorite show!

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:21 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Apparently you didn't actually read my reply. Why should we be mad at current executives at FOX who want to give Joss another show, when those executives are not the ones who canceled Firefly? There is constant turnover at all of the networks, just like there is at all the movie studios. We shouldn't be angry at those who had no say in how Firefly was treated.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 5:02 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT

ANd of the corporate mentality? A bit of proof would go along way for me. Say, a Firefly miniseries? I think that would do it.

"Doc did good, coming up with this
job. Don't mean I like him any
better... but nothing buys bygones
quicker'n cash."

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 5:41 PM

BADKARMA00

Hey! I hadn't ever considered a mini-series! That's a great idea!

Bad_karma

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Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:24 PM

ANONYMOUS1

Joss isn't a General.

Joss is Boss. Nathan (Our Captain) Fillion said so on the Serenity Collector's Edition DVD extras.

And Joss is on strike right now so he ain't getting paid.

Tactics! It is all about Tactics!

Step 1. All the Big Darn Heroes keep working and building their fan bases. Nathan's got 39839 friends. The more people see of our Big Darn Heroes, the more people want to see of our Big Darn Heroes...which leads them back to Firefly/Serenity.

Step 2. Joss and Tim work on another show together and expand their fan base...which leads people back to Firefly/Serenity.

Step 3. We keep introducing Firefly/Serenity where we can. We keep buying/promoting Firefly/Serenity Official Merchandise.

Someday, Universal or another studio will realize there is more money to be made in the 'verse.

Joss and the actors love the 'verse. Just listen to the cast commentary. They love working together.

Serenity sequel, sequel, Serenity set we can tour/have weddings/have shindigs at Universal Studios and where Firefly like episodes could be filmed for Straight to DVD and SciFi or USA Channel. Got my QMX Official Serenity Blueprints and lottery tickets.

We hold til Mal gets back.

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:56 AM

HIXIE129

I understand everyones' responses. However, for me FOX had been the Alliance, I don't watch FOX ever ( except for sporting events ) I was pissed that Joss signed with FOX.. I felt betrayed. And I still feel that Joss sold out. I feel like Mal after the Battle of Serenity.

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:13 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
I understand everyones' responses. However, for me FOX had been the Alliance, I don't watch FOX ever ( except for sporting events ) I was pissed that Joss signed with FOX.. I felt betrayed. And I still feel that Joss sold out. I feel like Mal after the Battle of Serenity.

I suppose I can understand how you feel Hixie, but I must agree with what the others have posted here that you have to separate the current people in charge w/ Fox Television from those who were there when the plug was pulled on Firefly. The shortsighted fools who held the reins then are no longer with Fox. The people there now are different and Joss felt that with the changes he was safe to take his ideas back to them.

Let's face it, the man has a family and they have a powerful need to eat. If Fox extends an offer and Joss has no other irons in the fire, why not take Fox's deal? I suppose that is how Hollywood works.

Look at it this way, if some hits you with a hammer, which do you get mad at, the person or the hammer? The execs who cancelled Firefly are not Fox, they only worked for Fox. See the difference?

Personally I don't watch Fox, but that is more for the fact that their programming doesn't appeal to me at all.

Joss is still Joss. He still has stories to tell, and Serenity is one of them. Perhaps if he is successful at Fox some more doors might open for him to continue ours. We'll just have to wait and see.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Color Officer / X.O. Echo Company

http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
I understand everyones' responses. However, for me FOX had been the Alliance, I don't watch FOX ever ( except for sporting events ) I was pissed that Joss signed with FOX.. I felt betrayed. And I still feel that Joss sold out. I feel like Mal after the Battle of Serenity.

Hey dude, the guy's gotta eat!
We all sacrifice principles occasionally either to make a living or go along with a group.
You watch Sports on Fox....see, you do it to.

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 6:33 AM

HELL'S KITTEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
However, for me FOX had been the Alliance, I don't watch FOX ever ( except for sporting events ) I was pissed that Joss signed with FOX.. I felt betrayed. And I still feel that Joss sold out. I feel like Mal after the Battle of Serenity.

...you're kinda scary.

By your own logic, look at it this way: Joss doesn't work with FOX ever ( except for Dollhouse ).

But anyways... you're assuming Joss had a choice in which network he went to first. Was a time when he had a contract that basically meant FOX had all first options on anything Joss wanted to do for television. And that, if I recall correctly, was rumored to be a small part of the reason they decided to dissolve Mutant Enemy after Angel was cancelled. It was also part of the reason, among many many others, that Joss could only bring the Firefly story back through movies or comics, as these media weren't covered by that contract.

Whether or not that part of his contract is still in effect (and whether or not I actually got some of the facts straight after all these years) is irrelevant. You have no idea how things work in that industry and you have no idea what the circumstances are. But by all means, do continue to judge someone you don't know based on something you know nothing about.

Joss will only have "sold out" when he starts writing for reality shows. And if he did? They'd probably be the only watchable ones on air.

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 7:23 AM

EVILDEAD1971

i was havin' the same thought myself...

i haven't watched fox since they've cancelled firefly and futurama. now, joss is "back" at fox with the dollhouse. i'm at sorts, but i will watch the dollhouse. joss's writing + eliza's acting = a shiny new show.

who knows, maybe our watching of the new show will prompt fox to reconsider their decision and we get more firefly.

ultimately it would be worth it

http://www.boomstick.org

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 10:27 PM

HIXIE129

With regards to Joss eating and making a living… Joss is very successful financially; this thing about having to eat and to make a living I'm not sure is a good argument. Didn't he give up on Wonder woman because the execs didn't like his version of the tale.. If he really needed the money couldn't he have given them what they wanted..?

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 10:35 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
And I still feel that Joss sold out.

Like a driver in the Indy 500...

Anywhere you get the wheels Chrisisall

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Friday, December 28, 2007 2:32 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
With regards to Joss eating and making a living… Joss is very successful financially; this thing about having to eat and to make a living I'm not sure is a good argument. Didn't he give up on Wonder woman because the execs didn't like his version of the tale.. If he really needed the money couldn't he have given them what they wanted..?

If Joss had given them what they wanted, wouldn't you again be accusing him of selling out?

Besides, he came up with Dollhouse at the insistence of Eliza Dushku, who already had a development deal at FOX, and Joss did it as a favor to her. And he is on record as stating there is now a favorable atmosphere at that studio and network. Why can't you accept that?

One other point. Is there any other show you loved that was canceled by a network? Ever? I can't imagine, unless you are very young, that this hasn't happened to you before. If I stopped watching any network that canceled a favorite show of mine at one time or another, there would be no network television at all at my house.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 2:46 AM

HIXIE129

I remember WHY I came to this website. I wanted to be with people who were in love with firefly and felt as I did. I wanted to know what they were thinking and I liked all the discussions about the characters and episodes. I came here to get updates on the latest rumors. I like the people that are on the site the last couple of years. I like Brown Coats.

But doesn’t it feel like things have changed? The talk of Firefly/Serenity is so little except for some new converts that ask questions… The new converts are so few these days. The talk on this board is mostly about World events, politics or anything but Firefly or Serenity.

Joss, Adam, Jewel would visit this site from time to time and read the discussions going on between the Brown Coats. All that they can see now are the non-firefly/Serenity discussions.

Maybe it’s our fault that Joss is now with FOX..

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Friday, December 28, 2007 3:18 AM

HIXIE129

For me and for many others we knew that there were “them” and “us”. “Them” being the Alliance, the evil FOX network and “us” being Brown Coats. Since there are no more them and only us, what should we do now that there are no more them? Part of the Brown Coat existence was resisting them. And that being said, since it is only us what do us do to fill that void that was dogma in our verse..

I know that I haven’t been bringing my point across... a very feeble example might be: I grew up being told that Saint Christopher was a Saint.. Then after many years was told that he was no longer a Saint…

The verse has changed, the dogma of the verse has changed, I am just looking for answers to what is the new dogma of the verse.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 3:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
But doesn’t it feel like things have changed? The talk of Firefly/Serenity is so little except for some new converts that ask questions… The new converts are so few these days. The talk on this board is mostly about World events, politics or anything but Firefly or Serenity

You have a valid point, but I think it's a natural progression. There are about 30,000 FF Fans here & dozens of other sites with thousands of fans....and there ARE Firefly episode & character conversations every single day. Do they "dominate" this board? No. Should they? I don't know. I've been here over a year now, and I think it's a good mix of FF stuff, other sci-fi stuff, and current events. I mean really, hasn't most of the "limited" run of Firefly been discussed ad nauseum to a degree here? What else do you want to see here? People have got to move on somewhat in their lives....you can't get fixated at one point in time, otherwise you can become a very boring person ( like me ). Actually most of the time in my life I find I don't have a lot to say to people, especially new people. There are so many things these days you really can't discuss with a group of strangers or even people you know...like : politics, religion, and social issues. I've never been good at social mindless small talk...but if you wanna discuss Firefly, Star Trek, Babylon 5, etc etc I'm you're guy. So most people think I'm quiet and shy, because they wouldn't have a clue as to what I like to talk about, or I'd confirm their belief that I was a sci-fi geeky nerd. I go to sci-fi cons all the time.....when I tell co-workers, etc about a comic book I found, or a cult DVD, or that I met Lois Lane, they look at me like I'm 11 years old or something....maybe I am, but I know in my heart that I'll never grow up.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 4:00 AM

HIXIE129

I agree JS, there are many benefits to this site other than firefly talk.. I am trying to find out if others feel the way I do about how our Brown Coat dogma has changed and what is the NEW dogma...

eample:
They can’t stop the signal, Who are they?, aren’t they “them” the FOX network? Since Joss is with FOX are we to surrender to FOX too?

Hold till I get back,, I didn’t know I had to hold till he returned from another FOX tour.. And what if FOX screws him again.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 4:56 AM

BILLYBIGBALLS

Sounds like he sold out to me

Has he given up on Firefly/Serenity?
Who owns the rights to Firefly now, Fox or the Sci-Fi channel?
Would he have a cause in his contract allowing him to work for other networks?

I hate you Fox

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Friday, December 28, 2007 8:08 AM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Adding to BillyBigBalls questions.

Wasn't this "new execs hype" the same thing they used when Drive was coming out?
Exactly how *NEW* are these new execs?
Were they at F*X when Drive was canned?

More points than answerable questions.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 8:57 AM

EVILDEAD1971

i think part of the reason people are so mad at fox, cause firefly was a damn good show. i'm on my 4th time of watching the series, in the middle of trash right now. every episode has a moment where im about to cry, where i laugh out loud, where i cheer, where i boo. save for buffy, angel & futurama there is NO OTHER SHOW that makes me feel that way during one episode. heroes is good, but only hiro has the characteristics of a whedon creation.

as for joss joining the alliance... ever hear of a double agent?

---NOTE---
the above is my opinion. it's neither right or wrong

http://www.boomstick.org

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Friday, December 28, 2007 9:39 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Maybe I'm nuts, but another possible "angle" to this is that perhaps if Joss' latest show is a big fat cashy-cow money hit, he will once again be the "golden boy" at Fox. Then he can use his power and people skills to get their backing on a new Firefly series. It's a GOOD thing that he's back with Fox...you know the old saying, right? : When you can't walk....no, not THAT one, this one : Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 10:15 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Maybe I'm nuts, but another possible "angle" to this is that perhaps if Joss' latest show is a big fat cashy-cow money hit, he will once again be the "golden boy" at Fox. Then he can use his power and people skills to get their backing on a new Firefly series. It's a GOOD thing that he's back with Fox...you know the old saying, right? : When you can't walk....no, not THAT one, this one : Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

this is exactly how I look at it!

Joss could hide at home and hold his breath, hoping that someday someone will will give him the money to bring back Firefly and/or make a Serenity sequel....

OR he could continue to be a great and innovative creator of new shows which reminds people (people at Fox and Universal) that they want to work with this guy.... and maybe it is time to bring back that Firefly/Serenity universe which still sells DVDs, inspires websites, and sells comic books.

Joss has said time and time again that he has not let go of Firefly, he loved that more than anything.... but it has to be done right (personally I could be happy with a radio play, but Joss wants his spaceship....)

I'm not giving up my dreams of a future for Firefly on TV or more of Serenity on the big screen... I don't think I'll ever assume that it is dead and gone (and I wonder about fans who give up so easily and are so easily depressed)

It took almost 10 years to get a Star Trek movie made (and they had so many Star Trek (original series) episodes that it was syndicated all over the place, and almost 15 years before the Star Trek universe was back on TV.... I don't think we'll have to wait that long, but if we do then I'll still be a fan and looking forward to enjoy it!

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Friday, December 28, 2007 10:30 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I wrote a very nice post early on in this discussion that I apparently failed to actually post. That bugs me.

Anyway, it seems to me like having a lack of a clearly defined them should not be as much of a problem as it is for some people. "Us and them," is both overly simplistic and terribly unhelpful.

To use examples from Firefly people like Jayne don't exist as either us or them, people like Book can start as a part of them and move to become a part of us.

The world isn't black and white, there are no clear factions because though people do coeless into groups those groups are fluid with members entering and leaving and the groups themselves changing with their ever evolving membership. ox today is not the fox that there once was, and to judge it on its past mistakes is like judging the Catholic Church based on its actions in the Spanish Inquisition. Is it possible to judge the current orginization via the actions of the past one? Yes, but unless you are trying to be an asshole it probably isn't a good idea.

Fox may be made up of people not significantly different than those who were there when Firefly was executed. It may not. The worst that happens is that Dollhouse undergoes the same treatment as Firefly. Not as if we aren't used to it.

I would caution everyone to remember that the people currently at fox, who have thus far done us no wrong, are in all probability the only ones on earth with the power to bring Firefly back to tv. Maybe making them out to be the root of all evil isn't the most prudent course of action.

I don't consider it selling out to work with fox because the part of fox that wronged us was made up of people. People who are, by all accounts have heard, no longer at fox. I do not think all French people are evil because some French people have treated me like shit, likewise I do not believe every fox employee is evil just because some people employed there treated us like shit in the past. The difference is that the French people who treated me like shit are still French, the fox people who treated us like shit are, apparently, gone.

-

In closing, let me ask you something.

What would the show have been like if Mal had decided not to let Inara rent the shuttle because she supported unification?

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Friday, December 28, 2007 10:41 AM

FREELANCERTEX

Quote:
Originally posted by ECGordon: Besides, he came up with Dollhouse at the insistence of Eliza Dushku, who already had a development deal at FOX, and Joss did it as a favor to her. And he is on record as stating there is now a favorable atmosphere at that studio and network. Why can't you accept that?

Eliza Dushku, reeeeeeeeeeeally? interesting. Favorable atmospheres provide for favorable opportunities ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129: Hold till I get back,, I didn’t know I had to hold till he returned from another FOX tour.. And what if FOX screws him again.

Always with them negative waves, Moriarty. Always with them negative waves. Can't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

As Gordon said, Joss said there is now a favorable atmosphere at the network, which means the people there are interested in his work, which means they like it. Sometimes you have to take the roundabout route to get where you want to go, do something to gain credibility in order to be able to do the things you want. I'm a strong believer in the idea that if you want something really bad, you'll eventually get it. You're not going to get anywhere if you just sit on your ass and WAIT for it to come to you.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:04 AM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
I would caution everyone to remember that the people currently at fox, who have thus far done us no wrong, are in all probability the only ones on earth with the power to bring Firefly back to tv. Maybe making them out to be the root of all evil isn't the most prudent course of action.

While it is true that there is a different group of executives now at the FOX network than during Firefly's era, I'm not sure it can be stated that they have "done us no wrong". Case in point, the show Drive. But one would have had to be quick to have caught that show... FOX gave Drive a whopping 8 days to prove itself, and then killed it.

Considering that Drive had the involvement of Whedonverse allum such as Tim Minear, Nathan Fillion and Amy Acker, I'd say we fans were hurt by yet another murder in the crib.

All that aside, I still believe that Joss would not join forces again with FOX unless he had enough confidence that his show would receive better treatment. He may also feel that the premise of Dollhouse will have a better chance of grabbing audience numbers faster than the harder-to-define Firefly. I'm sure Joss is also only going in with more control built into his contract.

As much as the fans were devastated by the death of Firefly, no one was crushed more than Joss. No way he would go back into the lions' den unless he was better armed this time. Joss ain't dumb, and he understands the nature of the biz much better than many of the fans who ponder on his decisions.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:24 AM

HIXIE129

Maybe Joss has the Helsinki syndrome or maybe he has been brainwashed and needs some deprogramming;

Joss is at FOX its done.. What about the loyal Brown Coats, do we surrender to the Evil Alliance?.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:34 AM

RALLEM

Quote:
Originally posted by Blackadder7:
I think you have to separate the people from the entity. 'FOX' didn't cancel Firefly. A person did. It serves no real purpose to blame the entity for the shortsightedness of a single individual.

Think of it this way. If you eat at a restaurant, and the food stinks, but a few years later, the place is under new management with a new chef. Would you give the restaurant another chance? I probably would. Looks like Joss would too...

I disagree, it is our purpose to bring Fox to its knees until it relizes that it needs to make more firefly episodes or until it is dead. Muhahaha

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:39 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

To use examples from Firefly people like Jayne don't exist as either us or them,

woah there cowboy...
Jayne may not meet YOUR standards as them or us... but he is definitely one of my 'us'!!
He admired Mal and was trying to emulate him...
(with only limited success, but he gets some points for choosing a good role model)
Jayne made a huge mistake by assuming that Simon & River were not part of Mal's crew
(Jayne had wrongly put them into the rich privileged 'them' category)

so of course all that just goes to further your argument...that it is ALL gray area, and we can't just assume someone is against us...
after all, Jayne did fight hard to protect everyone (including himself of course)

I agree w/11thHour that Fox execs (like the execs at any of the networks and/or studios) may screw Joss again over Dollhouse, but they are excited about doing it now...and we have to hope that it is a commercial success which could (in time) lead us to getting Firefly and/or Serenity back in some form....

I have to say that I am VERY impressed w/Miss Eliza Dushku in putting this deal together....
Joss wasn't looking to sign w/Fox any time soon, but once he was all excited about the project it was easy to get him to reconsider (well not EASY, I'm betting that Fox may have had to reassure him about not interfering or being quick to cancel...)

and then finally:

Quote:

In closing, let me ask you something.

What would the show have been like if Mal had decided not to let Inara rent the shuttle because she supported unification?

excellent point, I'm sure that Mal had learned that it was a mistake to cut off his nose to spite his face...
that is to say: he needed the money....
but also, I'm guessing that a beautiful woman who had supported the Alliance was probably easier to accept than if it had been some jerk of a dude.

just sayin'

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:48 AM

BILLYBIGBALLS

Isn't this a good time to hold Fox to ransom, arent they crying out to get shows written because of the writers strike...he could of struck a deal to write them some reality bullshit show in return for backing of another Firefly series...or am I totally clueless in how this stuff goes down

I aim to misbehave

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:51 AM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
Maybe Joss has the Helsinki syndrome or maybe he has been brainwashed and needs some deprogramming;

Nah. Joss is just pulling a move like Angel did when he agreed to work at Wolfram & Hart. The best strategy is to attack evil from the inside.

Quote:
Joss is at FOX its done.. What about the loyal Brown Coats, do we surrender to the Evil Alliance?

Not me. I'll wait until Joss gets his show on FOX, then encourage people to watch Dollhouse, and only Dollhouse. Then the ratings will skyrocket for that show (and plummet for everything else) and FOX will beg Joss to create more shows for them.

Then Joss will be declared King of FOX, change the name of the network to JOSS TV, bring back Firefly, and invite all the folks who have worked for him to develop shows for his network.

Works for me.

11th Hour
Loyal Browncoat

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:53 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
Maybe Joss has the Helsinki syndrome or maybe he has been brainwashed and needs some deprogramming;

Joss is at FOX its done.. What about the loyal Brown Coats, do we surrender to the Evil Alliance?.

If we assume for a moment that you are right and it is Fox, not the people who were at Fox, who are our antagonists then I have to ask you something. How is this a bad thing?

If you are right and we are fighting against Fox how is Joss going into the lair of the beast wielding his greatest weapon (a, presumably, quality TV show) a bad thing?

I've always found that it's more impressive, and more useful, to convert and opponent than to destroy one. If Fox is our enemy better we convert it, and thus win while keeping it intact.

Generally in warfare, keeping a nation intact is best, destroying a nation second best;
keeping an army intact is best, destroying an army second best;
keeping a battalion intact is best, destroying a battalion second best;
keeping a company intact is best, destroying a company second best;
keeping a squad intact is best, destroying a squad second best.

Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence;
to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence.
- The Art of War by Sun Tzu, Chapter III

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:58 AM

HIXIE129

11thHour

I like it, I don't believe it, but I like it.

hris, Did you even watch Firefly, when did they ever try an convert the Alliance.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 12:05 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

To use examples from Firefly people like Jayne don't exist as either us or them,

woah there cowboy...
Jayne may not meet YOUR standards as them or us... but he is definitely one of my 'us'!!

I'm just sayin' that if we want ridgedly defined groups of Us and Them then Jayne who was fine -no, giddy with the prospect of working with the Alliance to turn members of Us (Simon and River) over to Them (the Alliance) it would seem that Jayne was a member of Them, after all why would a member of Us be so happy to work with Them against Us?

On the other hand Jayne is clearly a member of Us. So Jayne is both with Us and with Them, this cannot be in a strict dichotomy so Jayne does not fit into the Us-Them dichotomy.

If, on the other hand, we drop the idea of a strict Us-Them, which is what I advocate, we can go with the clearly and consider Jayne as one of us with no problem.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 12:11 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
hris, Did you even watch Firefly, when did they ever try an convert the Alliance.

Never said they did. Would like to point out that, since the end of the war, they have not openly opposed the Alliance either.

They did, however, convert their most powerful enemy to date (the operative) and he was representing the Alliance.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 12:29 PM

RALLEM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
Maybe Joss has the Helsinki syndrome or maybe he has been brainwashed and needs some deprogramming;

Joss is at FOX its done.. What about the loyal Brown Coats, do we surrender to the Evil Alliance?.

If we assume for a moment that you are right and it is Fox, not the people who were at Fox, who are our antagonists then I have to ask you something. How is this a bad thing?

If you are right and we are fighting against Fox how is Joss going into the lair of the beast wielding his greatest weapon (a, presumably, quality TV show) a bad thing?

I've always found that it's more impressive, and more useful, to convert and opponent than to destroy one. If Fox is our enemy better we convert it, and thus win while keeping it intact.

Generally in warfare, keeping a nation intact is best, destroying a nation second best;
keeping an army intact is best, destroying an army second best;
keeping a battalion intact is best, destroying a battalion second best;
keeping a company intact is best, destroying a company second best;
keeping a squad intact is best, destroying a squad second best.

Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence;
to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence.
- The Art of War by Sun Tzu, Chapter III

It may be more impressive and useful to convert an opponent, but sometimes it is High-larious to destroy your opponent.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 12:38 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

I'm just sayin' that if we want ridgedly defined groups of Us and Them then Jayne who was fine -no, giddy with the prospect of working with the Alliance to turn members of Us (Simon and River) over to Them (the Alliance) it would seem that Jayne was a member of Them, after all why would a member of Us be so happy to work with Them against Us?

it is true that Jayne was giddy w/the prospect of working w/the Alliance when he went to turn in the Tamms....
and do you recall how shocked he was when the Alliance representative double crossed him?
That is because he was so completely clueless about the Alliance and what they stand for...
Mal knew (and wasn't surprised at all that Jayne had been cheated, that is what these people do)

And actually Simon could have told him, because Simon was born and raised in the Alliance friendly society....

So in a way, Jayne's naïveté is proof positive that he has never had any dealings with the Alliance before and has learned now never to do so in the future!

Which doesn't support our position here of Joss going back to work for Fox again.... and my point is getting lost in my defense of my beloved Jayne.....

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Friday, December 28, 2007 12:50 PM

HIXIE129

Embers, I agree with it anyway..

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Friday, December 28, 2007 12:57 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
and my point is getting lost in my defense of my beloved Jayne.....

My point, wrt this point, is that the best way do defend Jayne is to drop the idea of a ridged well-defined Us and Them.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 1:14 PM

HIXIE129

How about a democratic vote?.

A Simple YES or NO vote.. That’s all I would like. I want to know if the Brown Coats will surrender to FOX as Joss did. I will go along with the majority…

Vote Yes to……… surrendering to the Evil suck ass Alliance that ruined our favorite show and characters. The FOX network that made “US” live in torment these last few years. Yes to kissing their ass and begging at their table for scraps.. And to saying in the future that we love Dollhouse even if it stinks just so that we can hold out for a glimmer of hope that FOX might bring back Firefly..

Vote NO to…… I will never surrender to that Evil Frackin Network and would rather watch the TOON channel for the rest of my life. I am a Brown Coat, I may have chosen the losing side but still not sure it was the wrong side.

I vote NO

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Friday, December 28, 2007 3:15 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hixie129:
Vote NO to…… I will never surrender to that Evil Frackin Network and would rather watch the TOON channel for the rest of my life. I am a Brown Coat, I may have chosen the losing side but still not sure it was the wrong side.

I vote NO

In an above post you admitted to watching sports on F*x. Better quit doing that then.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 3:18 PM

HIXIE129

I will in less than a month, right after football season.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 3:19 PM

FOLLOWMAL

I'm sorry, but if your convictions about this are so strong... you'd think you'd be willing to give up football for them.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 3:21 PM

HIXIE129