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Originally posted by embers:
I'm not sure I get your distinction...

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
SCIENCE fiction deals with how science is applied to fiction- that is, how realistic physical laws apply to the story...movies and TV seem to abandon the realism of events and processes to tell the story efficiently and succinctly therefore letting us down in the science dept. As Finn and Citizen noted, shortcuts are taken to tell the tales, are we too dull as a mass-entertainment audience to accept the nuances of inertia, time, gravity, power curves, etc., to accept a story ensconced in minutia that is scientifically relevant?
That's all I want to explore here...

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Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Not that I disagree with you about most supposedly SF movies or TV shows. They're often just futuristic action movies, or fantasy sword and sorcery flicks. ( Hell, one of 'em wasn't much more than a Western set in outer space. It got canceled real quick , though.... :<) )

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Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Sounds a lot like the novels of Robert Heinlein, who would stop the story and take a chunk, or a chapter, to expound on the theory of politics, or economics, or orbital mechanics, or how his FTL drive worked.
:<) )

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Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Although I wish there were more intelligent movies and television shows. Doesn't everyone?

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Originally posted by Fellowknee:
After watching the director's cut of Blade Runner, I don't think any of us can be sure that we're NOT a Nexus 6.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

The point of the movie, F.

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Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Which makes you wonder how we ever suffered through the stock footage and voice over original ending.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Which makes you wonder how we ever suffered through the stock footage and voice over original ending.

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We part ways here. I pray for your immortal soul.

SushiChrisisall

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I pose the idea that true science fiction remains in the purview of the written word, and that that which we call SF in movies and TV is merely fantasy, or at best, 'speculative fiction'.

Any takers?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by embers:
I'm not sure I get your distinction...

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SCIENCE fiction deals with how science is applied to fiction- that is, how realistic physical laws apply to the story...movies and TV seem to abandon the realism of events and processes to tell the story efficiently and succinctly therefore letting us down in the science dept. As Finn and Citizen noted, shortcuts are taken to tell the tales, are we too dull as a mass-entertainment audience to accept the nuances of inertia, time, gravity, power curves, etc., to accept a story ensconced in minutia that is scientifically relevant?
That's all I want to explore here...

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Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Wait, you liked the original ending? With the footage from the beginning of The Shining and where everyone lives happily ever after?

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Originally posted by Causal:

By the by, I've never really understood the insistence on slavishness about scientific accuracy.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Causal:

By the by, I've never really understood the insistence on slavishness about scientific accuracy.

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Y'know, I also have a problem with movies set way in the past where peeps have pearly white teeth..or movies where regular folk take punisment in stride that would KILL an Olympic athlete...colour me obsessed that way.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
In responce to a post by someone in my other thread, I would say that movies like 2001, Solaris, Gattica, and Star Trek: TMP, qualify as 'real' science fiction...

If you cheer and jump, it's still just fantasy IMO.

Blue Danube Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Causal:

It must be a real drag going to the movies with you!

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
But how else do you divide between fantasy and fiction?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Causal:

By the by, I've never really understood the insistence on slavishness about scientific accuracy.

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Y'know, I also have a problem with movies set way in the past where peeps have pearly white teeth..or movies where regular folk take punisment in stride that would KILL an Olympic athlete...colour me obsessed that way.

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Originally posted by embers:

2001 qualifies as REAL Sci-fi?! And what doesn't....
Blade Runner

?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Em, I'm gonna get all RWED on your a*s in a second if you keep that tone up!
*smirks*

Just kidding Chrisisall

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Little things like gravity mean so much to me Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Someone once asked Alfred Hitchcock why he didn't make Westerns. His answer was to admit that he had no idea what a good hat cost in the old west. Without that kind of attention to detail, a film ceases to be a work of art and becomes simple product.

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Originally posted by embers:

So in Out of Gas is must have just driven you crazy that the gravity didn't go out on Serenity, huh?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I pose the idea that true science fiction remains in the purview of the written word, and that that which we call SF in movies and TV is merely fantasy, or at best, 'speculative fiction'.

Any takers?

Finninspiredthistopicisall

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Originally posted by Fellowknee:
Hmmmm...seems to me like you fellows are making up a genre. From my halcyon days of youth I seem to remember that Science Fiction or Sci-Fi is the pejorative description. Most writers preferred speculative fiction, which seems like a better description as the focus (even in Asimov and Clark) isn't really on science which would make these novels into extended Scientific American articles, but in exploring humanity either in the future, following some current trend in human development, or in contact with something new and different, or as an allegory for some aspect of humanity. This speculation on human society makes them into stories.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I pose the idea that true science fiction remains in the purview of the written word, and that that which we call SF in movies and TV is merely fantasy, or at best, 'speculative fiction'.

Any takers?

Finninspiredthistopicisall

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A Christmas Story on Planet X
By Snugglebunny Claus

For a good part of the Twentieth Century, it was commonly believed that there were nine planetary bodies, one asteroid belt, and two comet belts that orbited the star called Sol. The names of these bodies were as follows; Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, the Asteroid belt, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, the Kuiper belt, Pluto, and the Oort cloud. Early in the Twenty-First Century, a new planetary body was found. That new planetary body, named Sedna, exhibited some unusual characteristics which required further explanation. A hasty mission was implemented naming the target, Planet X.


Commander Buck Dodgers prepared to land his interplanetary skiff onto the newly discovered planetoid that orbited near the Oort cloud. Buck suspected that he was given this mission as a joke, due to his name, because it wasn’t his turn to fly an interplanetary jump. The Scientists at headquarters insisted that the pilot whom was supposed to fly this mission was ill, and couldn’t make it. Buck reasoned with them that he wasn’t the next in rotation, but they countered with a response that was un-arguable, even if he didn’t want to fly this mission. They said that the small rotation of pilots at their disposal, were either preparing for other scheduled missions, or recovering from those that were completed too recently, and their health couldn’t be risked. They promised Buck that this mission won’t have any adverse affects on his rotation, so in layman’s terms he was getting an extra flight this year for free. The truth is that Buck loved these missions so much; that if someone was getting a laugh back home, it didn’t really matter to him.

The main reason for Buck’s certainty of this joke is that his entire stay in the academy was peppered with either Duck Dodgers’ the cartoon, or Buck Rogers’s the fictional hero jokes. Not only from his fellow classmates, but also from the cadre, the scientists, and the people at command. Buck had to grin and bare it, but secretly he often cursed his Mom and Dad for saddling him with this name. Heck, Dodgers wasn’t even his family’s traditional last name, it was Smith from back East, but when his father moved to Los Angeles he changed it to Dodgers so he could assume a western identity. Another reason for Buck’s certainty of this joke was his pronounced speech impediment. Well, Buck reasoned with himself, “They may be getting a laugh back home, but I am the one getting to fly this mission and nothing can be more pleasant than that.” Buck had the landing gears lowered, and his retro rockets were automatically firing to make a smooth landing, but then he noticed something odd. Buck’s skiff was using an inordinate amount of fuel for this landing. This puzzled Buck, but right now he had other things to worry about. These landings were all pre-programmed to be automatic, but Buck had witnessed what happens to pilots whom assume they will be, and drop their guard. Buck wasn’t going to let that happen here, so even though his skiff was performing flawlessly, he remained attentive just in case.

Buck’s skiff did land perfectly on the small, cold and dark planetoid, that was named Planet X for this mission, but the amount of fuel it burned to do so, was alarming. Buck made some calculations regarding the amount of fuel burnt, and according to them he just made a landing on a planet with a gravitational pull of one, which was impossible for a planetoid this small with so little mass, but the fact was he burnt the fuel. Buck made some other calculations in his head using a gravitational pull of one for the launch, and as long as nothing else went wrong, he should be able to do it, but his little trip to Pluto on the way back was off. Buck then began to prepare the quantum communications system to tell the people back home the news. While preparing the communications system, buck thought, These new quantum systems are awesome, and soon we’ll have engines that use tachyons too. Then we’ll be able to make interstellar jumps, and I can’t wait for then. Buck spoke up, “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, radio check over.” He then waited a moment for the response, and soon it came.
“Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we read you loud and clear, over.”

“Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I have landed safely on Planet X, but have burnt an inordinate amount of fuel doing so, break. I have done some calculations on the amount of fuel burnt, and they indicate a gravitational pull of one, over.”

A moment later the response came, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we suspected that because of the affects the planetoid has on the nearby comet belt, break. Please be advised, the observed size, and calculated mass do not concur with the registered affects on the comet belt, break. We would like you to explore Planet X, and determine why that planetoid emits a gravitational pull of one, over.”

Buck sat there a moment to let the message sink in. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I copy that you want me to leave my ship and explore the planetoid, break. I also copy that you want me to explore for any reasons why Planet X emits a gravitational pull of one, break. Base, do you have any theories to assist me in detecting the cause for the artificial gravitational pull? Over.”

A moment later, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, that is a negative, good luck, over.”

“Base, this is Commander Dodgers; I will be switching to a mobile communicator, after I change into a space suit, so expect a test in a few minutes, over.” Buck got dressed in a space suit designed for long excursions away from his ship, and exited his skiff.

As soon as Buck got outside his skiff, he noticed that the gravitational pull was similar to Earth’s, so he noted that for a future report. Buck thought about grabbing a personal rocket pack for the scouting mission, but then thought it would be unwise with the looming gravitational mystery. When Buck walked a suitable distance from his skiff, so that he could still see it, but yet the ship’s mass could neither assist nor detract from his transmission, he gave a communications check. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers from a mobile communicator, can you read me? Over.”

Buck again waited a moment for the response. “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we read you loud and clear, over.”

“Base, this is Commander Dodgers, the physical effects on my person from the gravitational pull, are similar to Earth’s, break. I will be conducting experiments on the atmosphere, wait for the results, over.” Buck pulled a device from the belt of his suit and began taking readings with it. He then began performing a series of tests and checks to confirm his findings. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, be advised that the atmosphere is similar to a pre-industrial Earth, break. Also be advised that the temperature reading is negative two degrees Celsius, over.”

A few moments later a response was given, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, can you confirm those readings, over?” “Base, this is Commander Dodgers; I have calibrated my sensor array, checked it, and then re-checked the calibrations, break. I have also rechecked my readings, and can only try again, with another sensor array when I get back to the ship, over.”

“Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we copy, over.”

After Buck finished his readings and transmissions, he prepared to walk in a series of clockwise circular paths near his ship, making them form a clockwise circular path around his ship, so he could be sure that a complete scouting of his skiff’s area was done, but as soon as he started his walk, Buck noticed a glimmer in the distance. Buck raised the power of his in-suit visual aid until the distance between him and the glimmer seemed to fade away, but Buck was still unable to discern what was causing it, so he decided to walk in the glimmer’s general direction. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I have detected a glimmering object approximately two point three kilometers from my current location, and am going to investigate, over.” Buck began walking before he heard their affirmative response. Buck walked for what seemed like a couple kilometers, but he couldn’t be sure, since keeping a pace count in this rocky terrain was difficult, and he felt that keeping his mind on the problem at hand was more important than on a pace count. Buck knew that if needed he could always find his ship through the in suit navigation system, and could get the exact distance walked from it as well, but more importantly, if needed he could always call his skiff to him. Buck thought about that, and wondered how it would affect his fuel though, and couldn’t seem to get his head around the calculations, so he dropped the subject. When Buck came just short of his destination, he stopped to observe, but was still unable to see the cause of the glimmer. Buck decided to proceed cautiously, just in case. When Buck came around a huge boulder along his path, he noticed what was causing the glimmer. It was a large golden pole in a clearing that had wires leading from the top to the ground at about a thirty degree angle. On the wires were what looked like red, green, and blue metallic flags. Nearby the pole was a little humanoid dressed in green, and wearing a legionnaire style helmet. The little humanoid was crouched, and working on something. Buck hung his head, thinking of the similarities to the Duck Dodgers jokes he endured at the academy, and wondered if this was somehow a part of the joke he just knew was being played on him. Buck began to walk slowly and quietly towards the little humanoid. Just short of where the humanoid was crouched, Buck stopped, and listened to him mumble in a high pitched voice. Buck then decided to introduce himself. “Excuse me,” said Buck.

The little humanoid turned his head in surprise, and bolted off behind a rock. Buck stayed put. A few moments later, Buck saw the little humanoid stick his head out inquisitively from the other side. Buck used slow and unthreatening motions as he said, “I won’t hurt you, please come out.” The little humanoid waited for the words to sink in, then slowly began to emerge from behind the rock, and approached Buck cautiously. Buck asked, “Can you understand me?”

The little humanoid paused again, looked at Buck with an odd expression, and then said, “Of course.”

“You speak English?” Bucked asked.

“Yes,” said the little humanoid with a matter of fact tonality to his voice.

Buck was puzzled, so he asked, “Why do you speak English?” The little humanoid thought about that for a moment and answered, “Because you speak and understand English, I speak and understand English.”

“So if I spoke German, you would speak German?” Bucked quizzed.

“Yes,” said the little humanoid. Buck thought about that, and shook his head in the affirmative. Buck paused a little longer, then asked in a leading tone, “Is your name Marvin, and are you a Martian?”

“No, and no,” answered the little humanoid. “My name is Hermey, and I am an elf.”

After a minute of silence between the two, Buck asked, “What would an elf named Hermey be doing on Planet X?”

“My job,” said Hermey.

“What is your job Hermey?” “I can’t answer that question, but for the answer you will need to follow me to my Boss,” said Hermey.

“Sure,” said Buck, “but please wait a minute while I transmit. Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I have discovered the cause of the glimmer, please wait while I investigate, over.”

A fairly quick response came, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base and we copy that you have discovered the cause of the glimmer and need to investigate, over.”

Buck motioned for Hermey to lead the way. Hermey took the lead, and mumbled, “The Boss has been expecting you.”

Buck and the elf walked to a well defined cave, not far from where Hermey was crouched just a few minutes ago. They entered the cave and walked to a round wooden door painted green. Hermey opened the door and motioned for Buck to enter. Hermey entered the doorway after Buck, closed the door, and then lead him to another doorway. “Please wait here,” asked Hermey, as he entered and closed the doorway behind him. Several minutes later, Hermey returned and said, “Please follow me.” The two of them entered a cavernous room where many elves similar to Hermey, but without helmets were working laboriously at long benches, and a larger fat man sat in a chair on the other end of the room.

The two of them walked towards the man in the chair, and stopped before it. “Hello little Bucky!” said the man in the chair.

What the Heck, thought Buck, I haven’t been called Bucky, since I was a child, and even then only by some Shopping Store Employee in a suit.

Hermey walked away from Buck and the fat man, towards a bench. Buck gazed at Hermey while he walked away. “Never mind him Bucky, he has to get to work after setting up the holiday pole as I requested.” Buck looked back to the fat man in the chair, and thought about what he just said. “Hi,” said Buck inquisitively to the fat man in the chair. “Who are you?”

“Ahh, how quickly they forget,” said the fat man, “I am Santa Claus.”

Buck stood there for a couple moments in a stupor, and then he looked around at the elves. “Sure you are,” said Buck as he returned his gaze to Santa, “but why are you here on Planet X, and not at the North Pole?”

Santa shrugged his shoulders and then looked down as if to remember something specific. “Well, since the discovery of flight by man, it was impossible keeping my location a secret, so I had to find a different place where I wouldn’t be found.” said Santa as he returned his stare on Buck.

“Oh!” said Buck. “Have I ruined your secret?”

“Well, that depends on you Bucky,” said Santa, “you could tell a story that would keep my secret.”

Buck fidgeted before asking, “Umm.” “May I ask you some questions?”

“Sure,” said Santa encouragingly.

“How did you get here, get this planetoid so warm, and get its gravitational pull to equal Earth’s?”

“Ahh,” said Santa, “there is only one answer, and it is the same as how I get all the toys to the children, it is pure magic my boy.”

Buck shook his head in the affirmative as if this all made sense to him, and oddly enough it was beginning to. “Do the elves need helmets outside?” asked Buck.

“No,” replied Santa, and then added, “That’s just Hermey,” as Santa made circular motions with his forefinger towards his temple. “He makes friends with the reindeer,” added Santa.

“Ahh,” said Buck. “What do you do with the holiday pole?” asked Buck. “Well, I don’t do anything with it, but the elves celebrate Christmas around it,” answered Santa.

“The elves celebrate Christmas?” asked Buck.

“Of course,” said Santa, “it’s their one day off a year, so they have an extra merry celebration.”

“One day a year off, isn’t that pushing them too hard?” asked Buck.

“Oh no, it’s what elves do,” answered Santa, “and it doesn’t take any pushing from me.” “I just direct their efforts,” added Santa.

Buck stood there looking around to survey the situation, and gather his thoughts. “Can any of your magic help me Santa?”

“How do you mean?” asked Santa with a glimmer in his eye.

“Well, I’ve already reported that the gravitational pull here was equal to that of Earth’s, and that the atmosphere was equal to a pre-industrial Earth. The people at base already expected the gravity because of the effects this planetoid has on the nearby comet belt, but they didn’t believe me when I told them about the atmospheric conditions. I was asked to explore for a reason why this planetoid had the gravity it did. I need an explanation for base that will keep mankind from this planetoid.”

“Ahh,” said Santa, “we need to sit and think this one out.” Santa paused. “I find that cookies and milk always helps in situations like this,” said Santa, “would you like some?” as cookies and milk magically appeared before them.

“Yes,” said Buck, as he grabbed some cookies and milk and sat down at Santa’s feet.

The two of them sat chewing cookies and drinking milk. After a few minutes, Santa muttered, “The number of people who believe in me has dropped drastically.”

“Uh,” said Buck.

“In the United States of America, I am only believed in by seventy percent of the people.”

“Is it that high?” asked Buck.

“Uh,” said Santa. They both chewed their cookies for a few minutes. “Do you still believe in me Bucky?”

Buck stopped chewing for a moment, and thought about it. “I can see you, can’t I?” answered Buck.

“Ho, Ho, Ho, that’s my boy, Ho, Ho, Ho!” Santa then settled down, and looked at Buck with a serious expression, “I have the solution to our dilemma. We’ll leave this building, and you’ll call your ship to us,” said Santa.

“Yes?” asked Buck. “Then you’ll gather another sensor array and I’ll make it so the data on it paints a grim picture,” said Santa. “What about the gravity?” asked Buck.

“Well,” said Santa, “The Scientists will find their data has been corrupted, and when they look again the planetoid won’t have any affect on the comets.” “What about their memories?” asked Buck.

“Swiped clean,” said Santa.

“Will I have enough fuel to get home with my ship after I call it here?” asked Buck.

“Yes,” said Santa, “and you’ll have exactly what you were supposed to for a planet of this size and mass, when you get back.”

“Great,” said Buck, “let’s get started right away,” as the two men jumped into action.

After Buck’s Skiff landed near the two men just outside of Santa’s cave and the two men performed their tasks, Buck radioed the bad news to the base of operations back home, and turned to say good bye to Santa. “I promise you an extra special Christmas this year Bucky, because you’ve been an extra good boy. Ho, Ho, Ho!”

“Bye Santa,” said Buck with a smile, “and thank you, but this will be the most special day of my life, because I got to meet you.”

There was a pause between the two men. “Thank you for saying that Bucky, but you do know, that you’ll never get to tell anyone that you met me?”

“Yes sir,” said Buck.

“I can’t tell you what will be under your Christmas tree, because I don’t want to spoil the surprise, but I promise it will be the best Christmas you’ve ever had, and every year will just get better.” said Santa.

“Do you want to know something funny?” asked Buck.

“Of course,” answered Santa.

Buck blushed from embarrassment, and then added, “I thought this whole mission was a joke being played on me, because of my name.”

Santa looked at Buck with an expression of understanding, and said, “It was Bucky, it was my joke that I put in your employer’s and co-worker’s minds.” Santa paused then added, “I wanted to see you, and no one else.” Buck let Santa’s words sink in, then turned away and entered the cockpit of his skiff. While Buck prepared his ship for take off, Santa entered his cave, shut the door, and began to make the final preparations on Buck’s new interstellar ship for Christmas. The engines of Buck’s skiff came to life and after only a moment for them to reach the desired temperature, the ship began to shake violently as it rose into outer space at an incredible rate of speed. The details of the mission Buck just completed were getting foggy to him already, but Buck wasn’t bothered too much, because small, cold, and desolate planetoids like Sedna never had anything interesting to report. Besides his ship would have all the recordings. Buck set a course for a quick tour of the planet Pluto on his way home.

Ho, Ho, Ho, I hope you all have a very merry Christmas
All characters, locations, and devices in this story are fictional, and any resemblance to other Characters, locations, and devices, real or fictional is purely intentional.

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Originally posted by embers:
So in Out of Gas is must have just driven you crazy that the gravity didn't go out on Serenity, huh?

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Originally posted by christhecynic:

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Originally posted by embers:

So in Out of Gas is must have just driven you crazy that the gravity didn't go out on Serenity, huh?

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I know it's already been pointed out, but would somebody somewhere explain to me why the gravity not going out is any more problematic than the the fact the lights didn't go out? They were without an engine and without life support. To our knowledge neither of those things is in any way related to the gravity so there is no logical reason I can think of to believe that that the gravity should have gone out. In spite of that many if not most here seem to think the gravity should have gone out.

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Originally posted by asarian:
Life-support, however, is a different matter. Like the man said,

"Engine don't turn, life support won't function, we don't breathe."

Well, it wouldn't necessarily be my design, lol, but on cheaper model ship it makes sense to connect any kind of venting system directly to the rotation of the engine (like is often done in cars). This design, of course, like life-support, is based on the assumption that the wheel never stops turning. :) Which is why I would design it a mite different my own self (like I would run it probably off a separate generator). But way it is is the way it is: catalyzer's broke, and they're up shit-creek without air.

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Originally posted by christhecynic:

There was, apparently, a back up life support system meant to ensure they would breathe even if the engine didn't turn. The fact that it wasn't an explosion proof back up life support system, and would appear to have been harder to fix than the engine itself (since Kaylee wrote it off well before she determined the engine couldn't be fixed) doesn't make it an ideal back up, but it did exist.

The implication is that whoever designed the Firefly class vessel recognized that the engine might not always turn and did set up life support on a separate generator, just in case. They just didn't do it with main life support, but they did do it.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I always thought it goofy that Joss is writing a scifi verse with things that do not yet exist, but considers mind-reading, psychics, precognition to be "fantasy" although already proven in our current time.

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