Firefly's flaws by shambleau

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Firefly's flaws

POSTED BY: SHAMBLEAU
UPDATED: Saturday, May 8, 2004 06:42
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VIEWED: 4756
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Friday, May 7, 2004 9:15 AM

While I love Firefly, I don't think it was perfect. I'm going to mention some of the things I didn't like. These are personal reactions, so I'm not saying anybody else has to accept my reasoning or reactions.

1. Cliched plot-points. While sometimes Firefly was able to put a new spin on hoary devices, there were several that threw me out of the episodes. In Shindig, I just rolled my eyes at the way the duel was introduced. The hero unkowingly ends up having to duel someone because he doesn't understand the customs of the place he's in, check. The guy he has to fight is the best duellist in the area, check. The hero wins anyway, check. I'd even throw Inara's offer to sacrifice herself by ataying as part of the cliche.

In Safe, the part where River is accused of being a witch, and the patron turns out to have murdered his predecessor, so he's forced to railroad her, just seemed like a device to make the ep more dramatic that ended up making it melodramatic instesd.

ALL of HOG.

2.Unreal villains

While I loved some of Firefly's villains, several of them were cardboard approximations of people. Since the main characters are as real to me as my friends, I think it detracts from the show.

Rance Burgess is the standard, cartoony ME misogynist and never reaches human status.

The Blue-Hand guys are in the same league as Rance, evil-corporate-goon division.

Crow is a WWF villain, not a real guy.

There are more issues that I have, but maybe a non-heated discussion could be started about these points, for a starter?

shambleau

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Friday, May 7, 2004 9:22 AM

BADGERSHAT

Ooooohhhhh, why I oughtta...

Actually, yes, there are some familiar tones in the plots and such.

But, keep in mind, there's like 9 stories in the entire WORLD, people just change the details within.

Some characters were a little odd, but keep in mind what's happened between now and the time Firefly was set. People could easily have changed (not that long ago, people used to speak with some horrific thing called "elocution" in which they gyrated and pointed and stamped with certain words, and it was considered proper. Try it now, people will lock you up and drug you).

Plot lines are hard to create from scratch, and as I said, there's only a handful of stories in the world to work with.

Also, keep in mind that any series needs time to find its stride (it took Star Trek TNG thre full seasons, Firefly had 13 episodes).

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Friday, May 7, 2004 9:44 AM

DELIA

I can deal with cliched plots, so long as they're well-written. And Firefly was incredibly well-written, so it works. It's sort of like Shakespeare -- he stole all his plots, too, but did wonders with the language of them.

I will, however, concede that Rance Burgess was not a good a villian. The only scene in all of Firefly that I routinely skip or go to the kitchen to get more soda during is his little speech from the balcony. But I never thought Crow was supposed to be an especially realistic villian, so I have no complaints. As for the blue-handed folks, I don't know that we saw enough of them to judge. I liked the line about the band-aids, though.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:01 AM

WEERWOLF

Oh, I don't know about the villains being so unreal and cliched and such... That I've (luckily) never met them doesn't mean they don't exist. We just don't gyrate in the same circles, 's all.

I've watched some of them from afar though. In the local red light district there used to be a side street crossing a pedestrian street, and there was always a dude standing on the corner who'd signal the sightseers' cars to stop or move on, depending on the traffic on the pedestrian street (view was lousy for the drivers because of the buildings on either side of the narrow street). Apart from the hair and the tattoo on his face, he looked just like Crow. Gorram big. Tattoos were on his arms instead of his face.

Anyone who thinks that this guy was doing the pedestrians a service, you're wrong... Any accident involving a car and/or a pedastrian was likely to block the street entirely, so cars wouldn't get through and business would stop for the duration of police proceedings. Pure capitalism, that's what it was.

oh, and a couple of months ago my country passed some legislation, and now 'whores' are legal, self-employed professionals. Registered companions everywhere, watch out. Competition on the way.

Did I mention yet that I like cliche? Western and Sci-fi are both cliche-heaven, and the combination of both could only milk the best of them. Culmilating in one of the funniest scenes in the entire series:

Zoe: "Jayne, this is something the captain has to do himself."
*Jayne lowers gun*
Mal: "NO! NO IT'S NOT!!!"
Zoe: "Oh."
*Jayne, Zoe and Wash

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:11 AM

WYDRAZ

When I read this topic's title, I thought this was going to be about the flaws in the ship, not the show itself.

Since for me the flaws in the show are so small that they aren't even worth contemplating, I'd rather contemplate the flaws of the ship... like it has no guns! Of course, I always liked that about Serenity.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:29 AM

WEERWOLF

I like the fact that Serenity has no guns on her as well. I'm trying to think of a sci-fi tv-series where the major spacevessel has no guns either, but it's been a long day and my brain got stuck in Firefly-reverie. Help, anyone? Please? Other spacevessels without guns?

"There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow... There's Klingons on the starboard bow Jim!"

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:30 AM

PEDME84

well, i don't think that the cliched characters were really a flaw. i think that the idea behind that was to use these old kind of characters, plot lines, setting, etc. in a new way. buffy did the same thing, more so in the beginning. the character, the plots, were all things that had been done before in the horror genre time and time again, but he was doing it in a different way. the buffy stuff i totally understand, but i'm not well informed in the western genre, so i can't catch the kind of games he's playing unfortunately.

anyhoo, i do agree that the show was not perfect. every episode (except for one, in my humble little ignorable opinion) was fabulously well written. however, i don't feel like stakes were successfully built throughout the season. my one problem with joss (and i love joss, i want to be like joss when i grow up) is that he holds on to his big ideas for waaaayyy too long. we learned nothing new about blue sun in 14 episodes! that's two acts of a season! we probably wouldn't have learned anything new until the finale of the second season, if we were lucky. it didn't build tension, it didn't even build mystery. it told us there was something we didn't know, but do an x files thing. tell us something that gives us the fun of discovery while making us aware that we don't know anything. it'll make us want to know!

one of my personal rules of writing (probably inspired by joss) is that when you get the big idea, USE IT! have faith in your creative ability to come up with more big ideas in the future.

not that i don't love the, lets just let the characters live their lives approach, but i'd rather have a good balance, i don't think they achieved that balance. i thought the pilot was perfection! but after that, nothing quite lived up to it, i don't think.

keep in mind, i f--ing love this show! sooo much fun. now it just needs a little more thrills, which writing a movie gives them no choice but to do that, so yay!

- emily

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Friday, May 7, 2004 11:25 AM

HEB

Quote:
Originally posted by shambleau:
2.Unreal villains

While I loved some of Firefly's villains, several of them were cardboard approximations of people. Since the main characters are as real to me as my friends, I think it detracts from the show.

I think Joss said in the commentary that 'Fox wanted larger than life villains which was strange as the whole mission statement of the show was real life' (or something to that effect). So they had larger than life villains and then didn't take them too seriously apart from the blue hand guys which they played straight.

So I think this was not totally Joss' fault but I agree that the villains could have been more interesting.

The blue hand guys did genuinely terrify me though so I think they did their job. Although I did get a bit distracted by the fact that one of the blue hand guys was a watcher in Buffy and Angel.

That would probably be my complaint that using the same guest stars can be a bit distracting. Joss has said that he doesn't like things that take you out of the scene but I think using the same actors does that as they make you stop and think who they were and it makes you compare them. Caleb worked for me though because he was obviousley extremely different to Mal but Jonathan Woodward annoyed me a bit as he was a little bit too similar in all three series.

Having said that it is always interesting to see the actors play different parts.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 11:52 AM

GUNRUNNER

Quote:
Originally posted by weerwolf:
I like the fact that Serenity has no guns on her as well. I'm trying to think of a sci-fi tv-series where the major spacevessel has no guns either, but it's been a long day and my brain got stuck in Firefly-reverie. Help, anyone? Please? Other spacevessels without guns?

"There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow... There's Klingons on the starboard bow Jim!"

The Eurka Maru on Andromeda she had no offensive weapons. She had only Point Defense Lasers and a few missile tubes that were probably added for deployment explosive charges for selvage work or for defensive missiles. Eventually she was fitted with a "Weapons Pod".

The Firefly CCG Web Site:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Bllm119/firefly_ccg_web_site.htm

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Friday, May 7, 2004 1:06 PM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by weerwolf:
I like the fact that Serenity has no guns on her as well. I'm trying to think of a sci-fi tv-series where the major spacevessel has no guns either, but it's been a long day and my brain got stuck in Firefly-reverie. Help, anyone? Please? Other spacevessels without guns?

"There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow... There's Klingons on the starboard bow Jim!"

I could be wrong, 'cause I've only just started watching and I've seen not even the whole first season yet, but I think Moya on Farscape is gunless. Can someone who knows more than I do confirm, or let me know that I'm nuts?

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Friday, May 7, 2004 2:26 PM

ZOID

shambleau:

I, too, have noted one particular flaw in Firefly: It was on Fox.

Otherwise, methinks thou doth nitpick. Firefly was the best series in television history. Period. Show me something considered 'perfect' that's been made by a human, and I'll show you something that's flawed. But when you can weave the flaws into an artful tapestry, that's genius.

I once saw Mahogany Rush play live at the old Colisseum in Houston. During one particular guitar solo, Frank Marino hit a fingernails-on-blackboard, greasy cheeseball of a note. Did he just soldier on pretending it never happened? Did he spontaneously burst into flame, like I thought he would?

Nope. He riffed on the note: Stayed in the original key, occasionally repeating the off-key stinker. Gradually, he changed the key signature, a couple of notes at a time until he was playing the whole riff in R-sharp or Z-flat, or whatever the hell that was. The bassist changed key, too (I think), and by the time it was all said and done, I couldn't tell if Frank had done it on purpose or not.

So when it comes to Firefly's inconsequential 'beauty marks', remember what Frank Marino would say: "Behold, the Power of Cheese!"

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I felt sorry for River. If you can believe it, she was a frightened, confused child. Well... Things do change, don't they?"

- Zoë Warren, noted children's author, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Friday, May 7, 2004 2:49 PM

JEBBYPAL

Pedme84:

Quote:
we probably wouldn't have learned anything new until the finale of the second season, if we were lucky. it didn't build tension, it didn't even build mystery. it told us there was something we didn't know, but do an x files thing. tell us something that gives us the fun of discovery while making us aware that we don't know anything.

Hmm, I disagree. I think that Joss managed to build tension w/ regard to Hands of Blue in an entirely different way than the x-files. Carter and Co. were totally in your face about the conspiracy the only secret they didn't let you in on until later was that the conspiracy was between our government and invading aliens. Joss on the other hand treated the blue hands and the reavers in the same way: the less said, the scarier. It's a tried and true method of suspense horror and I think incredibly effective, it just depends on your tastes.

The things that catch me as being the biggest part of the flaws are when the writers forget that they are writing about the future. Zoe's reference to Wash that they are flying in a spaceship is one (when referring to River being psychic as unbelievable). Another one that just slaps me in the face is in Serenity (probably because of my work) -- when simon or the fed ask what med supplies they are taking to whitefall, Zoe responds: "insulin, plasma and the like. . ." I mean, 500 years in the future and we do see some of their advances in medicine to an extent, but I would presume to think that science would have advanced to deal w/ diabetes in some form or fashion. Granted, I can excuse it by saying that the frontier doesn't have access to those, but insulin is still a pain to make if you are going to ship it. Easier to give the other treatment once and be done w/ it I'd think.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 3:18 PM

SLOWSMURF

Just a tiny comment, that line about science fiction actually makes more sense if you hear the response from Wash. He says something like "Huh?", but its pretty hard to hear. Maybe she was just well read ;)

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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:02 PM

STIZO

I think you've missed Firefly's biggest flaw...the Fox Network.

This flaw single-handedly caused the series downfall. Seems pretty destructive to me.

But you do have a point, no show is perfect.

----------------------------------------------
Conquering the galaxy with terrifying space monkeys, one ship at a time...

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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:13 PM

SIOUX

This is just a tiny, tiny quibble. I hate watching Kaylee weld with no protection over her beautiful eyes. Somethings shouldn't change in the future.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:59 PM

ANNIK

Quote:
Originally posted by weerwolf:

oh, and a couple of months ago my country passed some legislation, and now 'whores' are legal, self-employed professionals. Registered companions everywhere, watch out. Competition on the way.

Prostitution and being a prostitute is perfectly legal in Canada. However, getting *paid* for it or discussing terms to get paid for it isn't. So what you see here are people getting charged with "communicating for the purposes of solicitation" or something goofy like that.

It's enough to make my head ache.

Cheers,
Annik

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:27 PM

ANNIK

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
Quote:
Originally posted by shambleau:
2.Unreal villains

While I loved some of Firefly's villains, several of them were cardboard approximations of people. Since the main characters are as real to me as my friends, I think it detracts from the show.

The blue hand guys did genuinely terrify me though so I think they did their job. Although I did get a bit distracted by the fact that one of the blue hand guys was a watcher in Buffy and Angel.

Having seen neither Buffy nor Angel, this distraction didn't get to me (but I understand what you mean). What did get to me was the hands being blue! Hell, I'm frightened of rubber dishgloves no matter who is wielding them!

Cheers,
Annik

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:48 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by weerwolf:
I like the fact that Serenity has no guns on her as well. I'm trying to think of a sci-fi tv-series where the major spacevessel has no guns either, but it's been a long day and my brain got stuck in Firefly-reverie. Help, anyone? Please? Other spacevessels without guns?

"There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow... There's Klingons on the starboard bow Jim!"

I think in Space: Above and Beyond, while there were fighters and carriers with guns, the drop ships and transports that brought the marines planetside didn't have guns IIRC.

p.s. "We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill..." ;)

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Friday, May 7, 2004 7:19 PM

WHOODAHN

Quote:
Originally posted by weerwolf:
Help, anyone? Please? Other spacevessels without guns?

Apollo 13

"I ain't crazy and I've got papers to prove it"

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Friday, May 7, 2004 7:34 PM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by WhooDahn:
Quote:
Originally posted by weerwolf:
Help, anyone? Please? Other spacevessels without guns?

Apollo 13

"I ain't crazy and I've got papers to prove it"

HA! Very good.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 9:45 PM

WEERWOLF

DAAAAHHH!!!! how could I forget Moya???? Is there a place short of River's Alliance academy where I can get my mind unstuck? Moya doesn't have guns, like Serenity her only reply is to run away very quickly using starburst.

"Don't call me stupid..."

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 2:01 AM

WREN

Quote:
Originally posted by jebbypal:
"insulin, plasma and the like. . ." I mean, 500 years in the future and we do see some of their advances in medicine to an extent, but I would presume to think that science would have advanced to deal w/ diabetes in some form or fashion. Granted, I can excuse it by saying that the frontier doesn't have access to those, but insulin is still a pain to make if you are going to ship it. Easier to give the other treatment once and be done w/ it I'd think.

I think they had enough on their plate, like leaving Earth that was, finding a new place to settle and setting up the settlements, to worry about finding cures to current conditions and diseases. The new planets also have their own problems which medicine would need to be found to treat, why focus on conditions that can already be treated?

Most of the improvements we see in Firefly are computerised advances for identifying or aiding in treating conditions. These are improvements in technology as opposed to medicines. They still seem to use the same medicines, such as adrenalin to start the heart.

Equally why should the Alliance find cures. I doubt they supply the medicine for free. The drug companies are probably quite powerful and they would lose both money and power if cures were available to the masses. Why should they care if some hick farmer on a far away planet dies?

We haven't even found a cure for the common cold and some of our medicines have resulted in new super bugs, so I am not suprised that there are no great medical advances in the Firefly 'verse.

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 6:29 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
I think in Space: Above and Beyond, while there were fighters and carriers with guns, the drop ships and transports that brought the marines planetside didn't have guns IIRC.

The drop ships did have guns. Remember in the finale, where Wang was going all Rambo as they went down?

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 6:42 AM

SKYDANCE

Seem's to me that Quark's ship didn't have guns, either.

Err ... not the "Star Trek" Quark. The "Quark" Quark. Late 70's comedy with Richard Benjamin in the lead role of Quark, commander of an intergalactic garbage scow. Funny stuff.

I had the same problems you did with the plot in Shindig. It started out good, but that episode needed more Kaylee and no Duel.

I'd forgotten about the town leader murderer thing. It did sort of come out of left field, on an otherwise pretty original script. I think they just ran out of time, though, and picked a stock way for him to be against her. Shame on them, but not as ridiculous as Shindig.

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