Joss Whedon = Shan-yu = evil (?) by heb

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Joss Whedon = Shan-yu = evil (?)

POSTED BY: HEB
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 22:15
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Monday, May 10, 2004 7:49 AM

"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are." - Joss Whedon

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

I have come to the inevitable conclusion that Joss Whedon is evil.

Leave poor Mal alone! Hasn't he been through enough already?

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Monday, May 10, 2004 8:53 AM

LIZ

i must admit i had noticed that connection too. the main difference of course is that Joss is talking about fictional characters and Shan Yu (or perhaps a better example is Niska) is talking about doing it to real people.

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:00 AM

HEB

Fictional?

What is this fiction of which you speak?

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:04 AM

GREGGALLINSON

It's SUN TZU.

Sorry, that's just one of my little nitpicks with Firefly fandom.

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:08 AM

HEB

I thought so!

The guy who wrote the Art of War right?

I wondered if that was who it was but I'd seen it spelt shan-yu elsewhere so asumed it was a different guy.

Sorry!

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:11 AM

GREGGALLINSON

Heb, it's no problem at all. I, too, have seen it spelled the other way all over the place. To be honest, perhaps it's an acceptable variant spelling I've never been exposed to...but considering every single reference I've ever seen to the man outside of FF fandom spells his name "Sun Tzu", I figure that's the correct spelling.

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:13 AM

HEB

No I'm sure you're right.

I just wasn't sure I had the right guy.

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:17 AM

GREGGALLINSON

That's the man!:)

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:20 AM

HEB

Thanks!

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Monday, May 10, 2004 9:58 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by GreggAllinson:
Heb, it's no problem at all. I, too, have seen it spelled the other way all over the place. To be honest, perhaps it's an acceptable variant spelling I've never been exposed to...but considering every single reference I've ever seen to the man outside of FF fandom spells his name "Sun Tzu", I figure that's the correct spelling.

There is two different ways to write Chinese characters with English characters. One is pinyin and the other is... I can't remember the name. They are both correct.

The US was tired of waiting for the Chinese gov to decide which to use so they decided to adopt the other and then the Chinese government decided to use pinyin.

As such the other is seen more in the West and pinyin is seen more in the East. Of course people in the West are now tending to pinyin as it has become the standard of the Chinese gov.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, May 10, 2004 10:07 AM

MCNALLY

Wait, so the quote from "War Stories" is real? I thought they just made "Shan Yu" up to quote, letting it be obvious that he was inspired by the writings atributed to Sun tzu.

If so, does anyone know where the "War Stories" quote is actually from? If "Art of War", what section?

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Monday, May 10, 2004 10:39 AM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:

"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are." - Joss Whedon

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

I have come to the inevitable conclusion that Joss Whedon is evil.

You know, this would explain 2/3 of what's happened to poor Wesley in the last three seasons of Angel . . . .

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Monday, May 10, 2004 10:32 PM

HEB

Well I'm from the UK so I haven't seen the last few episodes of season 5 yet.

But that does seem to be the case.

Joss has said that if a character is too happy it's a bad sign for them. He's so mean!

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 3:19 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Shan Yu & Sun Tzu are not the same person, nor are their writings the same. Sun Tzu was a Chinese general in 500 BC, according to what we know of Shan Yu, he was supposed to be some sort of dictator who studied torture.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 5:04 AM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
Well I'm from the UK so I haven't seen the last few episodes of season 5 yet.

But that does seem to be the case.

Joss has said that if a character is too happy it's a bad sign for them. He's so mean!

Since he's more or less been all tortured and miserable since the middle of season of three, whatever happens at the end of Angel can't make that much of a difference (because I seriously doubt this show ends "and they all lived happily ever after"). Poor man. I'd feel sorrier for him, though, if Alexis Denisof didn't make tortured and miserable quite that sexy.

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 5:15 AM

GORRAMREAVERS

Joss isnt evil :)

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 6:01 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
You know, this would explain 2/3 of what's happened to poor Wesley in the last three seasons of Angel . . . .

And about 90% of what's happened to Xander, and Willow, and even Buffy since the beginning of their show.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 8:45 AM

HEB

Possibly Angel Season 4 Spoilers below for UK viewers without sky.

That would explain why joss had to kill off Jasmine.

He couldn't let them be shiny, happy people ... wouldn't be civilised.

ps. just noticed the usage of 'shiny'in that episode title...shiny

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:44 AM

MCNALLY

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Shan Yu & Sun Tzu are not the same person, nor are their writings the same. Sun Tzu was a Chinese general in 500 BC, according to what we know of Shan Yu, he was supposed to be some sort of dictator who studied torture.

Okay, I thought they were different people. Thanks for clearing that up BrownCoat1. I also came across this old thread
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=4927

and subsequently SerenityNow's website
http://dryope.typepad.com/superfly/
about the whole question of Shan Yu and the quote being real.

As for the evilness of Joss - as long as he keeps putting his characters through the wringer we can all ask ourselves the big questions without our own lives having to go down the toilet.

So you go, Joss! Dangle 'em over that volcano and keep it coming!

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:05 AM

HEB

Quote:
Originally posted by McNally:
So you go, Joss! Dangle 'em over that volcano and keep it coming!

You're all under his spell! Don't you see it?

Look what Joss has done to us all. He keeps putting our favourite characters through hell and we don't stop him because....well because he's Joss.

Maybe we should take over the firefly verse and have the crew of serenity living happily around the core, selling dolls with wobbly heads for ever. Because, of course, no-one will ever die in our new firefly utopia.

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:34 AM

DELIA

Heb,

Now you've got me wondering (and a wee bit depressed) -- I wonder how long he would have waited before he started offing the Firefliers.

Delia

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:57 PM

HEB

Oh no! I hadn't even realised that when I wrote it. Now I'm depressed!

Not long judging by previous Joss standards. Maybe we should storm the set of Serenity before he has a chance.

Although if there's gonna be a trilogy he'd have to be quite mean to do that to one of the actors in the first film and it wouldn't be quite so easy to bring them back as in Buffy.

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Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:15 PM

FLAMETREE

Quote:
Originally posted by McNally:
Wait, so the quote from "War Stories" is real? I thought they just made "Shan Yu" up to quote, letting it be obvious that he was inspired by the writings atributed to Sun tzu.

If so, does anyone know where the "War Stories" quote is actually from? If "Art of War", what section?

The quote was made up but Shanyu was mentioned in the Art of war it is a long quote but here goes

MASTER SUN
therefore if the smaller side is stubburn, it becomes the captive of the larger side

COMMENTARY BY HO YANXI
Ho Yanxi told the story of right general Su Jian of the Han dynasty, a vice general in the wars with the invading Huns of ancient times. Right General Su and Forward General Zhao of the forward army where leading a division of several thousand troops when he encountered a hunnish force ten times as large.
They fought all day, until the chinese army was decimated. Now Forward General Zhao, a foreigner
who had earlier surrendered to the chinese in exchange for rank and title, was invited by the Huns to join them, so he took the rest of his mounted troops , about eight hundred or so , and surrended to the SHANYU, the hunnish chieftain. Right General Su, now having lost his entire army ,was at a loss to know where to go being the sole survivor.
The great general asked several of his top advisors what to do about the case of right general Su. One said "we have not executed a single vice general on this campaign. Now this Su Jian has deserted his army - we should execute him to show how serious we are.
But another said , "No, that is not right. The rule of martial arts say that it is the very stubbornness of the smaller side that makes it captive of thee larger. Now this Su was alone with a few thousand troops when he ran into the Shanyu with a few tens of thousands of troops; he fought hard for over a day, not daring to have any other thought as long as his soldiers were left. If we execute him now that he has come back by himself this would be showing people there is no sense in returning.

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