Simon and River's Parents Involved in River's Abduction by BrowncoatBear

I think the only that can really be said is that River wanted to go to a really *really* good school and they had the money to send her. So, they did. The parents then realised that something was going on (probably bad) after some time, but didn't kick up much, if any, of a fuss. Really if only because it was a government run school, and being that they were educated, they would have no doubt realised the repercussions of there actions should they do so.

So, being in line with there standing in society, they silently mourned for there daughter and tried to prevent there son from going down his own disastrous road.

Sure, there's a bit of speculation in there. But, I think all of it stands to reason and doesn't stray too far beyond nor reads too much into what we've seen. And surely anything more, including government involvement, reads far too much into what we know.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, September 15, 2008 5:49 PM

Yes, early in "Safe", father Tam is portrayed as a good father. However committing River to the program does not necessarily mean that he does not love her.

Remember, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." If the Alliance program operators pitched him a good story, and fed him a lot of flag waving patriotism b.s., the psychology of Mr. and Mrs. Tam could very simply be that they are offering River for her benefit as well as the Alliance's. Of course it is entirely possible and likely that they may not have been told everything that they have planned for her. This would be a great foundation for a very emotional and dramatic revelation on the Tams part in a later episode.

It is amazing what people can justify in their minds when they are told is for some ultimately benign purpose. Eugenics is a fine example.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:15 PM

Maybe they are clones? And that's why River couldn't read their true intent. Brilliant, even when I'm tired.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:20 PM

If I remember correctly, River wasn't known to have psychic abilities until after she had been in "training".

For those who study trauma based mind control, it is well known that such training is reported to increase the mind control victim's intuitive sense.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:36 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

River was known to be more gifted than her brother. Probably why she was "accepted" by the school. My theory is they (the blue hands oeople) looked for children within the top 2% of those identified as gifted, and started experimenting to see if they could develop a super soldier.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:37 PM

The emergence of River's psychic abilities is left vague. Was psychic testing done and that is why she was chosen for the program? Or did they somehow stimulate those abilities?

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:38 PM

REGINAROADIE

I'm with Mal4Prez with this one. I'd post a really in depth answer to that question, but instead I'll recommend that you read my fanfic series YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN. It's pretty much my very long answer to that question.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:48 PM

Big response by WYTCHCROFT, so let me go point by point:

1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River, and is visibly distressed when he suspects that something is amiss. He is also quite frustrated with his parent's flagrant lack of concern when he brings his suspicions to their attention.

2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.

3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River. I have seen no evidence that they were in any way displeased with her as a daughter, but rather that they felt the Alliance's motives were worthy of making the sacrifice for the greater good. This is a common theme played out frequently in history.

I will connect the dots later on this thread, and I will also offer my thoughts about how I think Book was a former operative who had quit and became part of the resistance movement. He was trailing the operative in the pilot episode. Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River. All the while maintaining his cover. His interaction with Kaylee was all part of his plan to get on board Serenity to keep the operative from taking River back into Alliance custody.

It is clear that Book was formerly an operative who had a change of heart and got out to follow a more spiritual path, saving other's souls, in repentance for has past while retaining his trade craft.

Book knew that the Tams were involved in River's assignment at the academy, and that was going to become apparent in some later episode.

Then the show got cancelled and book got killed, and yadda yadda yadda.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:56 PM

Platonist,

It is pretty clear from my understanding that River showed no psychic abilities until her time in the academy. There is no refernce to such ability in any of the back story.

In the pilot, Simon reveals in his monologue that River chose the academy based on its curriculum.

This actually creates a small continuity inconsistency with my theory, but it could be overcome with a little ingenuity, i.e., if the Alliance wanted her specifically, how would they know that she would take an interest in that particular academy.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:58 PM

I may take you up on that, reginaroadie, I've been looking for a believable fic to read, you know, one that reminds me of the show, I love. Reassure me it's not a ridicules River romance, where she's turned into a soccer mom, and we have a deal! lol

Interesting ideas about Book's invovement, maybe the comic book will shed some light.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:03 PM

Platonist,

Oh, yeah. I created this thread without any reference to the comic book series.

I have not read any of it, and I think that those stories are somewhat of a departure from what would have been written into the t.v. series, had it continued.

But, anyone who has read the comic series would immediately know if I was off base on that point.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:07 PM

I hate to undermine everyone's confidence in our public schools, but we test for everything and know everything and most parents want their kid in the "special programs" so they can brag about to all the other parents, how their child made the cut. It reassures them that they are the good parents. Sad, but true. The Tams had blind faith and ignorant optimism in the Alliance, much like Miranda and that's what's going on here. They didn't "question" it like Simon did who really knew his sister.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:19 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
[.....I think Book was a former operative who had quit and became part of the resistance movement. He was trailing the operative in the pilot episode. Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River. All the while maintaining his cover. His interaction with Kaylee was all part of his plan to get on board Serenity to keep the operative from taking River back into Alliance custody.
.....

I think this is on target.. Good job.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 8:36 PM

@Platonist:

Actually, in the flash backs, if you look at the way the parents are talking to Simon (body language, tone, emphasis, etc) there is every indication that they had an idea, but didn't act. Probably because of, again, knowledge of the repercussions.

There's a lot of real history to back this up. I mean, just look at the reaction to the Nazi's before they took power in Germany pre-WWII. The intellectuals thought that there was no way they'd get voted in. But, then they did. Then they thought that there was no way that the Nazi's would get away with doing the horrible things that they did do. But, they did. And of course, by that time it was too late to leave. So, they hid and did nothing. And a lot of the brave few that actually had some fight in them paid dearly for there efforts.

Similarly, the Tams had faith in the system, but then got bitten by it. Then they didn't have the character to go against it, if only because they didn't know what to do and were afraid of the consequences. Better to be a good little citizen and try to protect what you can.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, September 15, 2008 9:01 PM

I agree to that to some degree... by the time Simon is planning a rescue, there is quite a possibility that the Tams knew that there was some truth in his accusations. They chose to ignore it, to disbelieve, and play it safe, as you said. That is a far cry from aiding, abetting, and abduction, considering we know that River went by her own accord (see the Tam sessions). I think the Tams will be truly shocked if they ever get to see River, again, just as Germans citizens were when they found out they were living less than 5 miles from Nazi Concentration Camps, which horrified them, if you want to use a WWII analogy and how the Nazi’s ruled with intimation and fear.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 9:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I agree to that to some degree... by the time Simon is planning a rescue, there is quite a possibility that the Tams knew that there was some truth in his accusations. They chose to ignore it, to disbelieve, and play it safe, as you said. That is a far cry from aiding, abetting, and abduction, considering we know that River went by her own accord (see the Tam sessions).

Very true. But, that's not really mentioned in the Tam Sessions, but rather in Simon's explanation of how things went (Serenity the episode I believe).

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

I think the Tams will be truly shocked if they ever get to see River, again, just as Germans citizens were when they found out they were living less than 5 miles from Nazi Concentration Camps, which horrified them, if you want to use a WWII analogy and how the Nazi’s ruled with intimation and fear.

I most agree. But, I think that that analogy is more brutal than what was going on in The 'Verse. Well, at least we don't know of any events (and none were alluded to) that would be along those lines (or at least on that scale).

I think that the Alliance ruled with a more subtle "iron fist." Perhaps something more akin to the government in Aeon Flux (movie).

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, September 15, 2008 10:58 PM

Actually I have written documents whjich prove that the Tam's parent and some grassy Gnoll planned this abduction form the day River was born. jk :)

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Monday, September 15, 2008 11:13 PM

XEYRA

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Platonist,

It is pretty clear from my understanding that River showed no psychic abilities until her time in the academy. There is no refernce to such ability in any of the back story.

You're forgetting the R. Tam Sessions. The quote I have in my signature is from there. River had since an early age shown to have a powerful intuition. The interviewer in the first Session seemed to have been extremely interested in this talent of River's. She may not have been a true psychic until the experiences in the Academy but she had shown that she had a talent for it. Like Joss Whedon says of Jubal Early in the OiS commentary: "so intuitive as to be almost psychic". In River's case, the Academy turned the almost into real.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:56 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River...

I agree. I see none of the usual sibling rivalry from Simon. He's nothing but proud of River. Just watch him when he says she makes him look like an idiot - his chin is high. He doesn't understand that as an insult to himself, but a high compliment to her.

Quote:
2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.

Well... but I get different meaning out of platonist's point here. To the elder Tams, the Alliance is not just a power structure, but is their nation and their identity. It'd be like a wealthy couple in today's America being told that the kid they proudly sent to West Point is being horribly tortured and maimed under the authority of the US government. Do you really think a high power CEO kind of couple who'd invested their lives in The System would believe such a thing without strong strong evidence? Just look at how resistant people are to believing that their favorite candidate stretched the truth a bit!

Quote:
3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River.

Here's the thing that's confusing me about your theory - it's a matter of when things went down. If you're suggesting that the Tams folded to pressure not to look into River's situation AFTER she was at the Academy, well, I think that much is clear.

On the other hand, if you're saying that they knew exactly what they were sending her into when she first applied, that's the part I just don't see.

Edited to add: It may sound like I'm dissing your theory - I don't mean that! It seems that you're into something more complicated than Gabriel and Regan as evil cackling villains, and that's cool! I'm just not quite understanding your setup. Are you writing a fic of this so it'll be all laid out eventually?

Quote:
Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River.

And here I'll refer to my own fic LOL! I totally set up such a connection, with Book in a state of penance and out to protect Simon and River. But I didn't involve the operative or the elder Tams.

Xeyra - yep, I agree. In the River Tam Sessions we also find out River's talent for knowing what girl Simon liked before anyone else did. She totally had some skills before the Alliance enhanced them.

Oh, and BcBear - I wouldn't discount the comics so quickly. Joss writes them, the material is solidly canon. And rumor has it that the next set will tell Book's tale. And he used to be a dirty cop. So we heard from Ron Glass himself on the Browncoat Cruise!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:43 AM

Mal4Prez,

Unfortunately I am not writing any fic. I am just a fan with an active imagination who often contemplates and extrapolates where the plot lines were headed based on the inertia that they had built up before the shows cancellation.

As far as timeline goes, I imagine that River was already enrolled in the Academy and had been surreptitiously put through several stages of assessment, unbeknownst to the Tams, by Alliance operatives working under cover as faculty.

Upon their assessment of River as a "good candidate", they likely approached the Tams with some kind of packaged proposal, coloring it in such a way as to suggest that the special program is for Alliance benefit and that River will not be harmed while enrolled in it. The Alliance obviously would not reveal the true horrible nature of the program to the Tams so as not to cause alarm to them, and so that they could keep things compartmentalized and maintain plausible deniability.

The Alliance may have incentivised their "offer" to the Tams by guaranteeing certain benefits for them and embellishing it with an offer for accelerated career advancement for an unknowing Simon (this is heavily suggested by Mrs. Tam in episode "Safe"), and with whatever veiled threats you can imagine.

Once they got the okay from the Tams (they were not going to accept 'no' for an answer), then River was transferred to the special learning department.

Make no mistake: I do believe that the Tam's decision to put River into the program was based on some kind of pressure from the Alliance, and that they knew that it was a contoversial decision. But, ultimately because of their patriotism, they committed River and her safety to some unknown program, and in my opinion a good parent will always opt to protect their children and would not succumb to such pressure or intimidation tactics. Especially for political reasons.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 4:15 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Big response by WYTCHCROFT, so let me go point by point:

1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River, and is visibly distressed when he suspects that something is amiss.

I always make a point of mentioning this too - but nobody ever notices.
I KNOW Simon is all about the caring and the selfless.
That does not exclude the possibilities i discussed, whether real, or lurking in the back of Simon's mind. It COULD explain WHY is he so. I'm not saying it DOES explain. But it would be a natural human reaction. Look again at the flashbacks and where they occur in the narrative - and ask yourself what viewpoint are we seeing these from, does it change? etc.
I never seem to articulate this very well.

Simon and River is all about the LOVE (see Serenity the BDM). But that is no simple thing.

I didn't want to mention my Fan scribblings (sigh) but i have tried in the past to explore the issue(s) from many different sides - since most explanations are plauisble enough.

I was going to mention The Recordings so I'm glad Xeyra did. River was already psychic.

Quote:
2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.

I'm with Platonist on this.

Quote:
3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River. I have seen no evidence that they were in any way displeased with her as a daughter, but rather that they felt the Alliance's motives were worthy of making the sacrifice for the greater good. This is a common theme played out frequently in history.

Well IF Simon was right about the postcards, (and IF we are seeing the truth of what happened) and if River was being as obvious as Simon says, then the very blithe (dismissive) reaction of the Parents is wierd in the extreme. They don't even try to see what Simon means - or reassure him ina realistic way. So... again, there are more POSSIBILITIES here.

Quote:
I will connect the dots later on this thread, and I will also offer my thoughts about how I think Book was a former operative who had quit and became part of the resistance movement. He was trailing the operative in the pilot episode. Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River. All the while maintaining his cover. His interaction with Kaylee was all part of his plan to get on board Serenity to keep the operative from taking River back into Alliance custody.

It is clear that Book was formerly an operative who had a change of heart and got out to follow a more spiritual path, saving other's souls, in repentance for has past while retaining his trade craft.

Book knew that the Tams were involved in River's assignment at the academy, and that was going to become apparent in some later episode.

Then the show got cancelled and book got killed, and yadda yadda yadda.

I completely disagree - though for a long time i thought myself that Book was an ex-op. I think Joss will surprise us. Also, I keep coming back to two things. Joss describes Book as "A man of peace not at peace." and the way he cracks, telling Inara about failing to defend a man he had sworn 'to protect'. I always thought this was just a slip that didn't get corrected (coz, Dobson? huh?) but i'm beginning to think this refers to something in Book's history.

I'm most likely as wrong as the next guesser on this one!! Still fun though:)

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:08 AM

All I will say is that I think there is something fishy going on here and I have a feeling the parents were intimidated by River. In Serenity, (the episode) Simon is very proud when he says that he is very smart but his sister makes him look like an idiot child, and I had a different feeling in the scene where Simon and River were children, (I cannot think of the episode's name) and River starts going crazy about the reavers and the dinosaurs, because I thought her father felt uncomfortable and ill at ease. Perhaps the Tams are very similar to the Dursleys in the Harry Potter stories. I wonder if the institute they sent River to was called St. Mungos.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:07 AM

WYTCHCROFT,

Some dot connecting now. And keep in mind that I am not trying to be "right" about anything. For God's sake, it is just a tv show, and a cancelled one at that. I suppose that I am second guessing Joss a bit, but, from the perspective of story telling and plot development, based on the character nuances I perceive, I am seeing these elements pretty clearly.

Okay, back to the dot connecting, and for this entry I am going to keep it limited to the point that you disagree on.

Regarding Book

Go back to the pilot episode: The Evesdown Docks, and the scene where we first notice Book. He is just strolling casually along, with his stuff in tow, purportedly looking for a ride. Doesn't know where he is going, or how he will get there. He is approached by a "barker". The barker pitches Book on taking a ride on the Brutus, and early in the encounter the barker calls Book "grandpa".

Book blows past the barker as if he was yesterday's news, displaying no interest in riding on his ship, and seemingly put off by his grandpa remark.

Later, as we see him stumbling upon Serenity, he seems to be moving extraordinarily slow and looking around with a bit more intent as he passes in front of Kaylee with here trademark parasol, relaxing in her lounge chair. He pauses to look over the front of the ship, as if he wants to be noticed, and catches her gaze for a moment, lingering briefly before he starts to move away. He is assessing, and lingering, almost as if he is hesitating to move away just long enough for her to initiate contact and say, "You're gonna come with us.". This is the only opening that Book needs to arrange passage on Serenity without it looking like he purposely chose that particular ship, i.e., he chose Serenity, but he made it look like Serenity chose him. A common tactic in the intelligence world.

Then, we remember that when Book puts those famous strawberries in Kaylee's face to seal the deal, she says what? Oh yes, "ooh, grandpa." Although we notice that this time he is not put off by her reference to his maturity, as he was by the previous barker.

We could say that Book was being polite and was somewhat charmed by Kaylee, hence his more friendly response, but it is too much of a coincidence that this humble preacher, with so much knowledge of the inner world of Alliance military operational intelligence would end up on the same ship as Simon, River, and Dobson. Thus, what is apparent to me is that Book wanted on that particular ship and he did not want anyone to know.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
For good reasons, I believe that Simon and River's parents were working with the Alliance, and had agreed to let them abduct her and experiment on her. I believe that there was some consideration given to Mr. and Mrs. Tam in exchange for their complicity.

Certainly plausible. Gabriel Tam is not a real likable character imho. At first he's a bit too nice and then the ugly control freak comes out . And the glimpse we get of Regan Tam is she's more of the dutiful wife, facilitator type.
I just went to twiztv.com to read the script and the version they have has a completely different beginning:

http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/season1/firefly-107.htm

No little Tams or dinosaurs mentioned in the tease. It definitely has more obvious nods and winks to the Tams knowing something's not exactly shiny with their daughter and they're not surprised by it.

Thx for the thread - it got me thinking about the timing of each person's boarding of Serenity - I'd never quite thought about what it meant for Dobson to be boarding before Simon and River (duh) - how did he know what ship they would choose? What's the underground's connection to Mal, and how did Dobson get that info? Mal knows they are picking people up and that surprises the others. Was that look between Simon and Mal a, "so this ponce is the precious cargo I was told about?"

I like the idea of Simon feeling responsible for River being at the Academy, even if just a little. I'm not sure brotherly love alone accounts for his obsession with his sister's welfare. Love AND Guilt would though.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Platonist,

It is pretty clear from my understanding that River showed no psychic abilities until her time in the academy. There is no refernce to such ability in any of the back story.

You're forgetting the R. Tam Sessions. The quote I have in my signature is from there. River had since an early age shown to have a powerful intuition. The interviewer in the first Session seemed to have been extremely interested in this talent of River's. She may not have been a true psychic until the experiences in the Academy but she had shown that she had a talent for it. Like Joss Whedon says of Jubal Early in the OiS commentary: "so intuitive as to be almost psychic". In River's case, the Academy turned the almost into real.

You're reading way too much into things. There is are techniques called hot and cold reading. For that matter, I've been able to get off of someone within seconds of meeting them a general feel of who they are with exceedingly high accuracy. It doesn't actually take much but paying attention to the fine details of human behaviour. As in, we all like to think that we are unique, but we are actually very far from it. Now, imagine if I had training to hone those senses!

All that happened at the Academy was that River couldn't shut off, nor filter the input from those senses (Simon: Ariel). So, imagine what training that could do, if even the incomplete training that she received.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Gabriel Tam is not a real likable character imho. At first he's a bit too nice and then the ugly control freak comes out.

Um, what?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:

River starts going crazy about the reavers and the dinosaurs

When did this happen again? Because, I don't recall any such thing.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:37 PM

I have the series with me and will start watchin gthe second dvd soon. If I see it I will post it.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:06 PM

In the beginning of Shindig is when I am talking about, but I was mistaken. River said the independent had cut them off with the use of dinosaurs and they would have to resort to canabalism.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:54 PM

SHINYSEVEN2

The episode with the flashback with Little Simon and Tiny River is "Safe" and I don't think she's crazy or hysterical--she's just playing an imaginative game.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 2:05 PM

I just saw that I made that mistake. I meant to click play for shindig and instead did so for safe. My bad.

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:11 PM