Do we have evidence that firefly guns are guns? by dbsousa

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Do we have evidence that firefly guns are guns?

POSTED BY: DBSOUSA
UPDATED: Friday, May 21, 2004 19:30
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Saturday, October 12, 2002 7:43 AM

What I mean is, do we have evidence that the slugs being thrown in Firefly are 20th century style, chemical explosion type cartridges?

For example, have we seen credible muzzle flashes, or smoke, or a reference that would indicate such?

If not, I would suggest that these slugs are magnetically propelled, leaving the barrel somewhere past the speed of sound.

I would love to see the scene where Jayne instructs the Doctor in the use of weapons. "Always make sure you degauss your weapon after a long fire fight. And make sure you use the indoor bullets if you are inside the ship. Otherwise you will punch a hole in the hull the size of your fist. Indoor bullets turn to powder when they hit anything harder than bone..."

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 8:28 AM

CHARLIEBLUE

In "Our Mrs. Reynolds," they had to get a space suit in order for Vera to work in a vacuum. So it doesn't sound like magnets.

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 8:37 AM

DBSOUSA

Drat...

Oh, well. When I get my own space western show, the guns will be gauss rifles and rail guns...

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:10 AM

LOONYTOON

Why? Cartridge firearms work just fine, and they already go WAY past the speed of sound, that is the crack you hear when a rifle goes off. And it has shown known action types, such as Zoe`s shotgun, a couple of pump-actions, and some automatic pistols. And ammunition that breaks up on impact already exists, the glaser safety slug, and others I don`t remember off the top of my head. I can see gauss rifles used as ship-to-ship weapons, though.

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:43 AM

DBSOUSA

Because explosive cartridges require a certain amount of oxygen to explode. change the mix in the atmosphere, and you change the power of the bullet. In my Space Western, the exact mix of oxygen to nitrogen to helium to CO2 will vary enough on each world to make boom sticks less reliable. (Actually on my Space Western, the guns will accelerate noble gasses to tremendous speeds, which will glow in the atmosphere, creating blasters whose ammo moves slow enough to trace...)

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Monday, May 17, 2004 12:40 PM

SINGLETON

While I'm sure there will be advances in chemical propellants over the next 500 years, chemical-powered slugthrowers will probably always be with us. The main reason, in the Firefly 'Verse that they'd remain popular is that the border colonies are all fairly low tech-industrial base. Cartridges are relatively cheap and easily transportable in bulk, and can be reloaded at home. Also, they're extremely reliable and easy to use, as are gunpowder firearms.
As we saw with the one hand-laser actually used in the series, those things aren't very reliable, long-lasting, and they are, frankly, ugly.
As for Vera requiring an atmosphere to operate, this isn't even true with cartridge weapons, today. The propellants we use now produce all the oxygen they need. They can be fired under water or in a vacuum.
In the 1960s, a pistol and rifle were designed for use in space. These are the Gyroject rocket pistol and rifle, both of which fired solid-fuel rockets of about .45 caliber, solid brass rockets ignited by fairly standard primers, IIRC. These were designed to be recoilless, which is the major factor in freefall or microgravity.
Another point, politically, it probably suits the Alliance to keep directed energy weapons and high tech kinetic energy weapons in Alliance hands.
Now, if I could just get some good reference for Mal's pistol and Jayne's revolver.....I wanna build my own!!!
Joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 12:51 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Singleton:
Now, if I could just get some good reference for Mal's pistol and Jayne's revolver.....I wanna build my own!!!
Joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

Jayne's gun is based on the LeMat revolver with some mods. Probably built on one of the repops from Navy Arms. http://www.navyarms.com/html/le_mat_rev.html

Mal's...? Looks like an assemblage of spare parts. Wish I could get a clear picture sometime.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, May 17, 2004 12:51 PM

GUNHAND

You can have Jayne's now. It's a Smith & Wesson Model 627 in .357 Magnum caliber.

Well you can have it for a shade under $1,200 that is. I looked at it when I was buying my latest revolver, but settled on something else.

Mal's isn't a revolver near as I can tell. It has a revolver style grip but I think it's a Franskenstein creation that the show put together for him. The workings of it look a lot like a Mauser but the barrel, grips and magazine are way off, so I have no clue what they actually used for it.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Monday, May 17, 2004 1:25 PM

SINGLETON

Jayne has a couple of peices I'm interested in, the main one looks like a fairly standard stainless revolver, there's something under the barrel where the lug would generally be, like a flashlight or something, but it's not a flashlight. In "Bushwhacked" he's got a small flashlight he holds next to the barrel. It's also got something odd on the top rail, looks almost saw-toothed. It's also more than a simple 6-shot cylinder, too.
Ah well, I'm sure we'll get more pics and info as the movie progresses.

Mal's gun appears to me, as you said, a "Frankenstein" creation. It's an old-style single-action revolver frame and barrel, with some kind of modified hammer. It has a cocking lever just above the grip, he uses his thumb to cock it, more than once.
It appears the cylinder is missing and some kind of rifle receiver parts were used to create a magazine-fed receiver of some kind. In "Serenity" he seems to pull a magazine out of it and check his ammo.
I guess I need to spend a weekend browsing a gun show, too look for likely candidates.
Thanks!
Joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 2:19 PM

LJOSALF

In Objects in Space, when Mal is chewing Jayne out over the misplaced handgun that River came up with in the cargo bay, we get this exchange:

JAYNE
I don't leave my guns around, Mal,
and I don't leave 'em loaded.

MAL
Well, somehow she got her hands on your
hardware. Now, supposing she took up
something with hull-piercing bullets?

JAYNE
Bullets are soft lead, Mal. Even Vera
could... barely breach the hull. She's
the best I got.
Courtesy of http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/firefly110.htm

I could have sworn that the phrase used had Jayne claiming all his ammo was soft lead as though he had long since thought through the ramifications of armor/hull-piercing loads. Feh, can't check: my other half leant our DVDs out a month ago and they haven't come back yet....

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Monday, May 17, 2004 2:27 PM

SHINY

I seem to recall an earlier thread that indicated you don't actually need oxygen around a gun to fire it...not sure where that went though.

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Monday, May 17, 2004 2:34 PM

TIGER

Quote:
do we have evidence that the slugs being thrown in Firefly are 20th century style, chemical explosion type cartridges?

In Out of Gas when Mal is scolding Jayne after River gets a hold of one of his guns, Mal expresses his concern over what would happen if she had fired it in the ship. Jayne says "Bullets are soft lead, Mal. Even Vera could barely breech the hull" (or something close). Modern bullets are soft lead, and the fact that they look similar to contemporary weapons and sound like them, is a good indication to me that Joss intends Firefly weapons to work like what we're familair with.

Quote:
Mal's gun appears to me, as you said, a "Frankenstein" creation

Mal's gun looks almost for sure to be an 1860 Colt Revolver with the loading lever and hammer removed, then some kind of housing clamped over the cylinder and rear half of the barrel to give it it's own unique look.

Here's a very good picture comparison.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 2:44 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by dbsousa:

I would love to see the scene where Jayne instructs the Doctor in the use of weapons. "Always make sure you degauss your weapon after a long fire fight. And make sure you use the indoor bullets if you are inside the ship. Otherwise you will punch a hole in the hull the size of your fist. Indoor bullets turn to powder when they hit anything harder than bone..."

I don't think Jayne would ever have this conversation with Book because he seems to know more about Guns than Jayne does!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 5:17 PM

SINGLETON

Thanks for the pics.
Yeah, Mal's gun looks like the back half of that Colt, but I think the rest is part of a submachinegun or rifle. Parts of a rifle receiver were used to dress up a prosaic Charter Arms Bulldog, to make Deckard's pistol in Bladerunner, I figure something similar was done here. Making it fire blanks isn't very difficult, and these days, you can do muzzel flash digitally, if you want.
Jayne's gun does appear to be a dressed up LeMat. There's something around that lower barrel, that's perforated to disspate heat. And something on top of the barrel. As a gun nut, this show is a lot of fun for me. The lack of info is gonna make costuming a bit harder, but I don't plan on trying to duplicate a particular character.
Joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 5:21 PM

SINGLETON

Not to anyone in particular, but it just popped into my head. I've noticed the occassional sound effect with a vaguely electronic sound, during cocking of certain firearms. One I recall was when Jayne jacks a round in the pump shotgun, before he open the door to Badger in "Shindig". Couple of other times with handguns, but no specific instances spring to mind.
Something else to keep in mind....

joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 5:38 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Singleton:

As for Vera requiring an atmosphere to operate, this isn't even true with cartridge weapons, today. The propellants we use now produce all the oxygen they need. They can be fired under water or in a vacuum.

There was a bit of discussion about this on a thread a month or two back. The general concensus eventually worked out this way: You don't actually need a suit (or a "case", which is what the suit was a substitute for), in order to fire a gun in vacuum, but unless the weapon is deliberatly designed to work in vacuum, the environmental extremes of space would damage it, and probably decrease accuracy.

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

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Monday, May 17, 2004 5:51 PM

TALVIN

I have assumed that, like so many other things in the 'Verse, there are several tech levels found in the armory.

Plausible, really. I am going to drag Static into this as an example: he flies a chopper with electronic weapon systems and fancy targeting (Apache), but his assault rifle design dates back to the latter-middle of the 20th century (M16), and if he is issued a sidearm, it is *probably* one that dates back in design to the early part of that same century. (M1911A1, right?)

Apologies for any errors of fact. My point is, though, that some of the weapons may be highly advanced, and others are likely to be tried-and-true models, like the shotgun.

So, just to prove that I DO have a point, I will end by saying that I suspect that some of them use chemical rounds, but I think Mal's gun is probably a gauss pistol.

And my opinion and an Alliance Credit will buy you a cup of protein with delusions of being coffee.

"I give up. I admit it. I'm a Browncoat."

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Monday, May 17, 2004 6:44 PM

FREAKYSINS

Actually, in the picture there, Mal's gun looks more to be a heavily modified Smith & Wesson double-action revolver. The trigger's too far forward and the grip's wrong for it to be the Colt. Also, I'm of the idea that maybe the whole thumb-movement and clicking sound that we see/hear almost any time Mal's intent on making a point is not him cocking the gun, but him taking it off safety. It just seems more... in context with the visuals.

Then again, I may well be slightly delusional...

I like smackin' 'em!

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Monday, May 17, 2004 7:08 PM

GUNHAND

My theory on why they use "old" guns, and I mean even old to us today is that when they left Earth That Was they recorded as much information as possible. I mean they'd have to, so they'd store on disk (or whatever) all of the manufacturing schematics they'd need for a whole variety of uses.

Among these would be guns. Now considering the nature of the beast the lowest technology that would be acceptable to use would be metallic cartridge firearms. Anything of a lower tech level, say muzzle loading rifles would be too great a hindrence for any savings in manufacturing base. Sure some on really really crappy planets may hunt with them, but by and large the lowest acceptable standard of weapon wouid be a metallic cartridge weapon.

They're also the most advanced weapons you can make with industrial revolution technology using steel, iron, wood, copper, etc. So on the frontier planets they use revolvers because they're the easiest of the MC weapons to make, Sharps rifles, etc. Basically Civil War tech.

Then as you get a little higher manufacturing standard you progress to lever action repeaters, bolt action snipers, automatic pistols, self loading rifles, SMGs, Assault rifles, etc. up the chain. Once you master that cartridge the rest of the work is easy. It wasn't advances in thought processes (for the most part) that lead from a Colt 1861 to an AK-47, it was advances in metalurgy and practical design.

So anyhow, the basic colony can support at the minimum a revolver and single shot breach loader. Now will every colony go through an extensive research programme to come up with the best revolver design? Hell no, it's already been done for you and it's stored on disk no less. So they start churning out Colt Single Armies or Remmington Dragoons or whatever the local plant thinks is the best design and one that people will buy. Just copy the data templates off the disk, load up your metal presses and go to town.

Plus I have a feeling that "open content" pretty much applied to all the historical data they brought from Earth That Was, there's no Colt company to come down on you wanting Licensing fees for making M1911s or whatever. So the old "patterns" are probably made by a variety of corportations throughout the 'Verse.

This makes getting spare parts a lot easier too. Your Areil Armory "Remmington Dragoon" wind up "bowing" a cylinder and you're on Persephone? No problem, just get a PFMC "Remmington Dragoon" spare part locally and away you go. No need to wait for a mail order part from the factory, just pick it on up.

Of course there may be problems with non-standard calibers on various planets requiring a bit more work to find magazines/parts for the weapons. But by and large I'm betting that there would be probably 3 standard calibers each for rifle, pistol and assault rifle use, like medium pistol being .45 or what have you to limit the problems. If you have a weird calliber, well then buyer beware and you wind up with Jayne saying they don't have any rounds for it when you stop at the Space Bazaar.

At least that's my take on why the guns look the way they do. From a "reborn" society it makes sense they go with the lowest common denominator and then work up from there based on how advanced the planets are. Eventually getting cases like Mal's pistol which are wholly new designs meant for specific needs to even beyond to the lasers that are in use in the Core with the Alliance.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 6:05 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by dbsousa:
When I get my own space western show, the guns will be gauss rifles and rail guns...

Gauss guns are/were in use on Andromeda. As far as we can tell, the "modern" Long Night-era weapons use conventional slugs. Before it collapsed, the Systems Commonwealth (as manifested by the Andromeda herself) had more advanced weapons, incorporating AI-guided nanobot colonies as bullets ("smart bullets from a smart gun"), and with a backup plasma gun (more ammo, more destructive but shorter range and accuracy).

Quote:
Originally posted by dbsousa:
(Actually on my Space Western, the guns will accelerate noble gasses to tremendous speeds, which will glow in the atmosphere, creating blasters whose ammo moves slow enough to trace...)

Which is what Star Wars uses. What, you didn't think those slow blaster bolts were actual lasers, did'ja?

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 3:56 PM

SINGLETON

OK, a few comparisons, it seems Mal's gun is more of a Frankenstein than we thought.
I made a few notes on the pic, but there's more I thought I'd put in here.
One of my arrows points out the back of the top strap of the Taurus, and indicates a similar point on Mal's gun. This is also where the rear sight is mounted.
The cylinder release is in the same position as Mal's "cocking switch/lever" that I mentioned in an earlier post. I know the SFX are added later, but the cocking sound coincides with Mal thumbing that thing, several times.
I'm guessing the hammer's been ground down a bit.
The grip on Mal's gun is fairly odd, because, in addition to resembling a S/A revolver's grip, it has a hole for a lanyard attachment.

As for the rest of the gun, still "collatin' data", as Patience would say. I'm convinved the gun is made up of parts of 3, maybe 4 guns, one of which (at least) is a rifle or submachinegun.

The reason I'm making such an issue is that I'm seriously considering making this a project. Probably along with a costume. I'll be doing conventions as much as I can, and I'd like to have an authentic piece on my hip.
If not, well, I'll cobble something interesting together. Need to design a ship, too, I think.

Thanks for the info!
Joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 4:00 PM

SINGLETON

Actually, I always figured the Star Wars blasters were laser guided particle beams, or somesuch. They seem to have no problem with microscopic megawatt power supplies, so almost anything is possible.
Joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:19 AM

CYBERSNARK

The "lasers" in Star Wars are used to ignite the gas. The gas is a special type, that's specially treated, and is "mined" from gas planets --in fact Cloud City (seen in ESB) is a leading producer of this "blaster gas" --the carbon freeze platform where Han was freshness-sealed (and Luke and Vader had their duel) was designed to process the stuff.

Blasters do use power cells (basically "clips," carrying about 500 shots), but these only serve as a power source. The gas has to come from "authorized" sources. Just the sort of thing for upstanding "free-traders" like Han (or Mal) to carry in those "special" compartments.

Lightsabers, FWIW, aren't lasers either, they're arcs of plasma that're held together by magnetic fields (like an inverted "Jacob's Ladder")

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:13 AM

PBI

Something else that may have limited things is the RL restrictions on using firearms. I seem to recall a few years ago that when the bans on assault weapons in the US were extended to Hollywood, that there was a lot of talk about how it would hurt the industry, as the FX folks would have to settle for using current inventories (no more 'futuristic' weapons), and that's why we see so many weapons in film and on TV that, well, look not quite new-ish.

Then again, it may also have just been part of the slightly behind the curve flavour Joss wanted for Firefly ;)

If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:01 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

The rail gun requires tremendous power to operate, as do lasers and other beam weapons. This technology is well within our grasps today; in fact much of it is old technology. Rail guns and lasers are 1960s technology. 40 years later we still don't have them operating because the tremendous power consumption needed to operate them.

Despite Firefly's frequent scientific misinterpretations, one thing that Firefly seems to have gotten right, albeit perhaps mistakenly, is that many of the futuristic weapons and propulsion systems that are taken for granted in other sci-fi shows require almost unattainable levels of energy to operate.

In the distant future will guns become a thing of the past? Obviously, our own military is moving towards a much more advanced and futuristic weapons. We are approaching the day when rail guns will be a reality mounted on massive nuclear US battleships. Of course, the ship won’t be able to maneuver while it is firing since all energy will be directed to the guns. Similarly, airborne lasers will soon become the weapon of choice on C-130 gun ships. But it will require constant maintenance and frequent “reloading trips” to allow the weapon to cool and recharge. Warfare for the US and Britain will change, but these are weapons that very few other nations will ever be able to afford.

Extrapolate this into the future, and someday shuttles and space stations may be equipped with rail guns and beam weapons. But very likely most soldiers will not carry these weapons on their person. Because no matter how advanced our technology becomes, the laws of physics will remain constant, and massive energy expenditures will always be needed for these kinds of weapons. There will very likely never be pioneers hunting alien turkey and pheasant with a rail gun. Even 500 years from now, the shotgun will in all likelihood continue to be a principal weapon. And the destructive power of a .308 rifle compared to its versatility, cheapness and ease of production will always make it a valuable weapon.

In the future, as today, the need for massive power generation will make certain weapons unattainable to those who do not have the ability to generate that power. And a combustion driver supersonic pellet of lead and steel will be as deadly tomorrow as it is today, at a fraction of the cost.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 5:50 PM

SINGLETON

Heh, so I'm bouncing around, the other day....and get to the thread on Mal's gun where someone has gone and solved the mystery. I was partly right, anyway, the basic gun in a Taurus revolver, with some mods. A new grip, other add-ons and voila! a whole new piece!
Ah well, too much work to build one, right now. Have to look for something else to be my sidearm, if I do a Firefly costume...
joe

Muscle.
Humor.
Thuggery.
Jayne.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:30 PM

TIGER

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