does Joss have a thing about knives? by NewOldBrownCoat

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

does Joss have a thing about knives?

POSTED BY: NEWOLDBROWNCOAT
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 06:26
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Sunday, June 7, 2009 8:45 AM

or is that a Captain Obvious question?
I was doing Captain Awesome's survey when I realized that.
I was discussing a conversion attempt of mine that failed. The guy I was working on watched part of the Pilot. When he got to the scene where Jayne was gonna interrogate Dobson, he turned off. Then he tried to watch the BDM, and only got as far as the scene with the Operative. Thinking it over, there's knife or sword stuff in a lot of episodes-- Safe, Shindig, Ariel, War Stories, The Train Job.
So that's the question; is fear of knives a button Joss likes to push? Are they a particular personal either phobia or fetish of his? Is there a lot of knoife stuff in Buffy, Angel, or Dollhouse? ( Stakes don't count, exactly. or Do they?)

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 10:36 AM

BYTEMITE

I dunno, never really thought of it like that. I always just figured, hey, it's a bunch of crooks on a space ship. If they don't have a gun on them then they're probably going to have a knife. Especially Jayne.

And when it comes to small arms, they seem pretty well equipped. Like in War Stories, remember all those guns and grenades? They seem better outfitted than some street gangs I've seen.

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 1:38 PM

GRIPPER

PLus,don't forget the premise that the crew actually does some legitimate salvage/transportation work besides the odd payroll heist-cargo work often requires the use of at least SOME utility knives/cutting implements.
Any here ever see a commercial fishermean/merchant seam man WITHOUT a multi-tool/working knife?

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 2:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I just think he down plays guns, and uses knives/swords for a more theatrical effect ?

Buffy and Angel were very non gun themed,if you recall.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 2:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I just think he down plays guns, and uses knives/swords for a more theatrical effect ?

Buffy and Angel were very non gun themed,if you recall.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

You nailed it.

If anything, Joss seems predominantly "anti-gun" - at least in Buffy and Angel. Firefly has guns, but if you notice, it's somewhat of a "bigger hammer" kind of thing. Jayne ALWAYS wants to go to the gun first, and Mal is pretty quick to use his gun instead of his head, too. Zoe will rely on a gun, but only as a last resort, it seems. So even when Joss DOES feature guns, it's in a kind of "this isn't an all-powerful tool, and people who think it is tend to be buffoons" way.

Of course, on the DARKER side of things, killing with a knife is just way more personal, so there might be something in that, too, as far as Joss and the story-telling aspect go.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 3:20 PM

GWEK

In a dramatic sense, knives/swords/stakes are more "personal" than guns. They're also less likely to give a sure kill.

If you threaten someone with a gun, you're probably threatening to kill or seriously cripple them. It's dynamic, but it's also one-shot. If you're threatening to torture with a knife, the implication, I think, is that you're looking at something more... long-term--or perhaps more disfiguring (either of which could be scarier).

In terms of fights, Joss and his gang often write guns as fight ENDERS, which means you have to start somewhere lower. Also remember that sometimes they re-use fights (for example, the final battle in THE TRAIN JOB is recycled from an episode of ANGEL).

As for the use of the sword in FIREFLY, specifically, I think it's often symbolic of social mores. Atherton, for example, has a "gentleman's" weapon, while the Operative, a modern samurai of sorts, mirrors their armament.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 6:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I'm feeling squeamish hearing Joss is anti-gun.
In Pilot there was a bunch with Patience. Then of course pluggin a Fed-in-the-Head.
So adamant about establishing Mal as a killer, when the 2nd pilot comes out (TTJ), Joss has Crow getting FODded. Also plenty of gunplay in the train, messing up the plan.
Safe has Book getting hit.

Seems Joss is welcome to useify all weapons, futuristic or not (where be the futurey knives?)

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 8:39 PM

ANOTHERSKY

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Then of course pluggin a Fed-in-the-Head.

Wow that was dark.

You gave me the picture of a popular new Browncoat game:

Whack-A-Fed

and now I can't stop laughing...in the most horrified way of course.

Yes they were rather set on making Mal a very not-fuzzy guy at first. took me a while to re-warm up to him.

As for knives, I haven't seen dollhouse, but apparently one of the psychopathic renegade characters loves em, and has disfigured several mains with them. Part of the reason I ain't seen it.

Futuristic knives? Where's that get fun? Guess you could have hot ones and cold ones...Jayne might enjoy making pain scarier. Me I'll stop right now thanks.

For anyone interested, there's a new book out called The (Unofficial) Psychology of Joss Whedon by Leah Wilson Davidson. Haven't read it, but it covers buffy, angel and firefly, among other bits and pieces. Back blurb claims he has "issues". What else did we NOT know?

But SHE might know if he has a thing with knives. Unofficially, of course.

--
Going for a ride.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 4:51 PM

MATTYJ

Quote:
the psychopathic renegade

Yeah, I'm going to have to say, you need to see it. I didn't see it coming, finding out who that "psychopathic renegade" was, it was a "oh s..." moment for sure.

watch it, it's not as good as Firefly, but it is worth watching.

MJ

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Monday, June 8, 2009 5:26 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm feeling squeamish hearing Joss is anti-gun.
In Pilot there was a bunch with Patience. Then of course pluggin a Fed-in-the-Head.
So adamant about establishing Mal as a killer, when the 2nd pilot comes out (TTJ), Joss has Crow getting FODded. Also plenty of gunplay in the train, messing up the plan.
Safe has Book getting hit.

Seems Joss is welcome to useify all weapons, futuristic or not (where be the futurey knives?)

I took the guns in Firefly as more of an homage to its western themes. Still, the gunplay in the show often doesn't end as intended, and often ends badly.

Then there's seven seasons of Buffy and five of Angel, in which guns were NEVER portrayed in anything but a negative light that I can remember. In fact, in one scene, Buffy takes a gun away from a bad guy, tosses it aside before kicking his ass the good old-fashioned Buffy way, and tells him when she takes his gun away, "These NEVER work."

And Faith has a special fondness for "futurey" knives, or at least some rather exotic ones. She likes crossbows and longbows, too. And then there's a scythe that gets used against Nathan Fillion's character, Caleb...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 5:51 PM

AG05

Getting FOD'ed! LOL!!

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 7:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AG05:
Getting FOD'ed! LOL!!

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

Somebody round 'ere has aircraft experience.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 7:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm feeling squeamish hearing Joss is anti-gun.
In Pilot there was a bunch with Patience. Then of course pluggin a Fed-in-the-Head.
So adamant about establishing Mal as a killer, when the 2nd pilot comes out (TTJ), Joss has Crow getting FODded. Also plenty of gunplay in the train, messing up the plan.
Safe has Book getting hit.

Seems Joss is welcome to useify all weapons, futuristic or not (where be the futurey knives?)

I took the guns in Firefly as more of an homage to its western themes. Still, the gunplay in the show often doesn't end as intended, and often ends badly.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

You seem to be disparaging Joss' use of gunplay. Mal, Zoe, and Jayne came out of Whitefall due to superior shooting and planning - and they figured it would come out that way, thus the planning.
And a key showdown in BDM included Mal's quickdraw contest with the Operative in the generator area. Plus Mal's popping the purplebelly pilot who killed Book on Haven.
I just don't see Joss shying away from guns in Firefly. Buffy and Angel are different shows. Buffy needs to have a leaning away from guns, largely due to the specific weapons and materials needed to terminate vamps.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 1:47 AM

KWICKO

I'm not "disparaging" anything. I'm stating my opinions, which apparently don't agree with yours. That's fine, it's all good. I've always gotten an anti-gun vibe from Joss and his work, and that's his right. I myself am a gun enthusiast, which is MY right.

That "showdown" in the BDM - the gunplay and quickdraw showiness was worth just about nothing when all was said and done; Mal still had to take care of business with his bare hands, not his gun. At the very least, Joss seems to enjoy pointing out that guns are certainly not a cure-all.

As for Buffy, vamps were only ONE of the kinds of demons and villains she had to deal with. Surely a gun could have been quite effective in a great number of other encounters. For instance, when Warren uses a gun with horrible unforeseen consequences, why doesn't Buffy use a gun when she goes after him? Certainly it would have been quite an effective weapon against The Trio (Warren, Andrew, and Jonathan), since they were mere mortals...

I don't "disparage" anyone their guns, or any writer or director their use of gunplay. I *DO* think it can take more imagination to write a scene WITHOUT gunplay, though.

But as stated above, that's just my opinion...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 4:01 AM

AG05

@JSF:

I worked as a ramp monkey at a regional airport in Texas for a year or so. Fun times.

@JSF, Kwicko.

I think Joss's use of guns in Firefly was not overly dones, but I don't think he shied away from them. Remember that while Mal the Operative were duking it out in the generator, the rest of the crew were holding the line against hordes of Reavers. From an entertainment standpoint, I can see why the fistfight makes for a better climactic tool than a gunfight. You can drag a fistfight out for hours with just 2 people. A shootout of similar length requires more henchmen and redshirts to be expended as cannon fodder (lest it look like our heroes can't shoot).

From an "in the 'verse" standpoint, One must realize that on a frontier (especially a recently demilitarized, lawless and wide-ranging frontier inhabited by Reavers) a gun is a necessary tool. They are not magical talismans by any stretch of the imagination, but most folks in the Rim view them like a pocketknife. Nothing too special (Jayne notwithstanding), but a handy thing to have.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 4:08 AM

CYBERSNARK

Guns can go wrong really easily (Warren's killing of Tara being the prime example. Book getting shot being another). Too easy to hit something you're not aiming at --if you have friends involved in the fight, this becomes an even bigger issue ("friendly fire" isn't). In an enclosed starship (where things can ricochet and do potentially ship-killing damage --Jayne notes that Vera could punch right through the hull), guns are a serious no-no.

Only practical non-knife alternative is to use energy weapons, and we've seen that that technology isn't available to Mal & crew.

Also, guns don't usually work on magic-based entities unless you're using specialized ammo (salt rounds for spirits [which only works at really close range anyway], pure/meteoric iron for faerie/gods --and despite what you may've heard, silver is way too soft to make useful bullets).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 4:39 AM

AG05

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

Also, guns don't usually work on magic-based entities unless you're using specialized ammo (salt rounds for spirits [which only works at really close range anyway]

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

I'm pretty sure a 12-gauge loaded with rock salt works well on non-magical entities as well.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 6:17 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

...despite what you may've heard, silver is way too soft to make useful bullets.

I take it you've never used soft lead hollowpoints? My dad used to load his own, and would make his own soft lead (unjacketed) hollowpoints for his .44 magnum. Tried 'em on gallon milk jugs filled with Jello, and those jugs just came apart when slammed with one of these loads.

And worst case, you could always do a metal-jacketed silver slug if you really needed that silver bullet.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 6:26 AM

AG05

Hell, 'till the late 19th century ALL ammo (or at least the vast majority) was soft lead. It can't stand up to the forces of modern full power rifle loads, but for pistols and SMG's (even some older battle rifles) cast lead works just fine.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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