To Whom It May Concern: Future Quotes Finale by zoid

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

To Whom It May Concern: Future Quotes Finale

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Saturday, June 19, 2004 20:50
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VIEWED: 10701
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Sunday, June 6, 2004 3:54 PM

(SPECULATION /'SPOILERS'? AHEAD!)
Greetings, Fellow Browncoats!

As some of you know, I have promised to repost all nine entries in my 'future quote' tagline series, along with a brief synopsis of each, and the hidden meanings and other 'quirky bits' concealed in them. I will keep that promise by posting that 7-pages of text on this thread tomorrow. That was honestly as 'brief' as I could make it. Seriously.

But I'd really -- sort of -- rather not. It's actually very specific, and the fun is in the mystery, is it not? I mean, are y'all sure you want me to do this? If you think I should post it, this message will serve as the spoiler space.

I'm not a total boob. I know there are probably as many people around these parts who wish I'd just go away, as there are those who are interested in my drivel. But I've started this, there are many who like them, and I'm going to see it finished. The question is, then, do those who enjoy the 'future quotes' want me to reveal everything, or just leave it as is?

As an analogy, Inara is bathing in her shuttle. We could leave it as Joss originally filmed it, with only the back and side shots, where we see only the merest hint of the curve of a breast, leaving the rest to the imagination... Or we can just turn her around unceremoniously and go full frontal, dispelling any remaining mystique she holds... Okay, so probably not a very good analogy... But, the point is: Isn't it better not to definitively know? In our imagination, her breasts are perfect, by what ever standard we hold perfection to. If you bare her, then her breasts are whatever they are, whether they suit you or not.

(okay, that's enough talking about Inara's breasts. zoid needs a drink of ice water, as in right now)

I'll leave it to you to decide. Post your votes here. When I wake up at 0400 in the morning tomorrow, I'll tally the votes, and do what y'all have decided, before I leave for work at 0500.

Vote 'Yes' if you want the full explanation.

Vote 'No' if you want to leave them unexplained.

I really appreciate your help in this matter. I'm genuinely torn over what to do ('cause on the one hand, zoid really does want to see Inara's brea... um, i mean, the veil of mystery dispelled). In the meantime, I'm posting just the quotes for now -- no explanations accompanying -- so y'all can re-read them.

Maybe that'll help folks make up their minds which way to vote. Don't forget to vote. Lack of any votes means I go ahead and post the 'explanations' version tomorrow before 5:00AM CDT.

'Future Quotes'
_________________________________________________

Week 1:

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence
_________________________________________________

Week 2:

"River? I thought she was a sweet girl. Of course, we were all sure she was crazy, too."

- Inara Reynolds, Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs
from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
_________________________________________________

Week 3:

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
_________________________________________________

Week 4:

(Of River) "Little Sis? I could see big things for her all along. Her and her brother both. I always knew they'd be worth something, y'know?"

- Jayne Cobb, Game Warden and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
_________________________________________________

Week 5:

"I felt sorry for River. If you can believe it, she was a frightened, confused child. Well... Things do change, don't they?"

- Zoë Warren, noted children's author, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
_________________________________________________

Week 6:

"Even back when, River had that indefinable 'it', y'know? Inquisitive, insightful -- Very focused... Some things never change."

- 'Wash' Warren, Chief Architect and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
_________________________________________________

Week 7:

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
_________________________________________________

Week 8:

"I'm telling you right now. When all's said and done, that little girl's gonna change the world. Not just this little bit she's done here, neither; big things. I couldn't be prouder if she was my own daughter."

- Malcolm Reynolds, owner-operator of Firefly-class transport, "Serenity"; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
_________________________________________________

Week 9:

"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."

- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Please let me know what y'all want done ("Take this cup from me"). I bid you, "Good night."

Respectfully,

zoid

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 4:29 PM

JEBBYPAL

Oh boy, I get to be the first to weigh in:)

Yes, I'm a tad excitable.

After reading all the quotes together, I totally understand your feelings Zoid. And quite frankly, they echo here. However, I'm gonna confuse you by giving you 2 answers. 1.) If you plan on developing more quotes w/in the series, don't tell us anything yet. Explain it after it's all done (hint hint, fanfic here).

2.) If you're done. Go ahead, tell us. I never was any good at keeping a secret. And yes, I do occassionally flip to the last page of a book. I'm evil.

Waiting impatiently for your final decision.

The Strawberry Monkey
http://p221.ezboard.com/bfireflyfanficawards

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 4:51 PM

SHINY

Kaylee has 6 kids, Simon 4? :(

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 5:06 PM

ZOID

Shiny wrote:

Quote:
Kaylee has 6 kids, Simon 4? :(

Correct. Not a typo. Vote yea or nay. Tomorrow, all will be revealed, unless the fans request otherwise.

BTW, Jebbypal, I am finished with the series and not going to write fanfic. I'm taking your vote as a 'Yes'.

Respectfully,

zoid

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 5:18 PM

WHEDONESQUE

Well, Zoid, I happen to be one of those who have really enjoyed your 'Future Quotes' series. I get the impression that you started them as a personal exercise, but I am glad that you decided to share them with us as you did. I can't wait to read your 'brief' explaination of the whole series. As for you reservations about revealing all...

1) The people who don't want to read the explaination, don't have to. In every post of yours that I have read, you have been careful to state your intent up front. The fact that this thread exists shows that you are giving those who want to maintain the mystery a chance to do so.

2) Your future quotes are YOUR THEORY of what could happen in the future world of Firefly. I happen to think it is a complex, fascinating, well-thought-out theory, but it is not canon. Neither the upcomming explaination nor the quotes themselves are spoilers.

3) I don't see this as a mystique-dispelling full-frontal shot. I see this as the 'commentary' on a beautiful, soft shot that hints at perfection. I don't care to do away with the power of suggestion and reveal all, but I really want some insight into how and why the creative mind who conceived it realized his vision. (quick - duck - this analogy is about to snap)

Anyway, Zoid, you seem to have a very interesting brain 'full of twists and cul-de-sacs' and I would really like to read more about you future quotes, how they came to be and what they mean (and hint at).

Again, thanks for sharing.

We did the impossible and that makes us mighty. Mal - 'Serenity'

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 5:30 PM

JESS

I vote yes. Veils of mystery just make me more curious.

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 7:11 PM

MANATREE

I say yes, too. I've loved reading the quotes and am looking forward to more of the story. Besides, like WHEDONESQUE has already said, if someone likes the mystery, they certainly don't need to read the thread!

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 7:25 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

yes, i want to know!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 8:19 PM

NOOCYTE

I'm gonna weigh in with a resounding YES (yesyesyes...).

Department of Redundancy Department

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 11:41 PM

ZOID

Jebbypal, Shiny, Whedonesque, Jess, Manatree, HowdyRockerBaby1, Noocyte, et ma familia (has anybody seen Delia?):

Okay 4:33AM and here goes nothing (although, a verrry looong nothing):

Fellow Browncoats:

As promised, this is a repost of all nine 'future quotes' as appended to the end of my longer posts for the past, well, nine weeks. No skipping ahead! I don't write 'fanfic', and I'm not writing a Firefly-based novel. As for the tags, lots of people have written me to tell me how much they have enjoyed them, which is most gratifying.

Here's how I have described the 'future quote' concept: I made 'em up. First, I had some very specific ideas about where JW & Co. might be taking specific characters, and the series as a whole. So, while everyone else uses their favorite actual quotes from the series (and they're my favorites, too), I came up with 'future quotes', written from the perspective of where I think the show would eventually go. Rather than spell that future out in 'fanfic' style, I preferred to just dance around it tantalizingly. (Well, I guess, no more dancing around, hmm?)

This is also in the tradition of sci-fi novels, wherein Frank Herbert (just for instance) quotes Princess Irulan's historical account of Paul's rise to the status of God Emperor, even while Paul's story is still being revealed to the reader.

All nine characters have now commented, in a candid, off-hand way about River – with the exception of River, who commented on the 'mystery man', as he has come to be known this past week. Through the various comments and the short identification of the speaker – fashioned after a history book citation – I have hinted at my predictions about how the 'big picture' story arc will go. It's been great fun to do.

Anyway, I'm glad some have enjoyed them. No skipping ahead! I won't leave anyone hanging; if anyone has still got questions, I'll answer them for the remainder of this week; after that, I'll email responses through the questioner's Profile page (make sure your FFFn account has the correct email data).

I won't speak to the topic again on FFFn after this week. For those members who have found the 'future quotes' a pain too great to bear: Thank you for your polite indulgence. It is almost over, now. Without further ado then, here are the 'quotes' in their original order (no skipping ahead!), with as brief a synopsis of each as I could manage...

WEEK 1:

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress, author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

Explanation:

Pretty simple: Book is actually General Richard Wilkins, the Alliance mastermind of the "deep flank" maneuver that obviated the defeat of the Independents at Serenity Valley on Hera. After the Second War of Independence (WoI II), in which the Alliance/BlueSun were finally obliterated as a force in society, he holds a Senate seat in the Independent Planetary Congress. His quote is a play on his line to River, "You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you", as heard in the "Jaynestown" ep. Given his first-hand knowledge of the events along River's path to power, he has deigned to write a history of the formative and culminating events of her ascension. The historical account is told from a viewpoint approximately five years after the end of Firefly's projected 7-year run (according to JW). I believe the series would have concluded with the final battle of WoI II.
_______________________________________________________

WEEK 2

"River? I thought she was a sweet girl. Of course, we were all sure she was crazy, too."

- Inara Reynolds, Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

Fairly self-explanatory, straight-forward description of how everyone felt about River during season 1 of the series. Quirky bits: Inara's last name is Reynolds. She and Mal got married. In the post-war 'verse, she holds a cabinet position in government. As the ranking priestess in the reorganized Guild – many prominent members of the House have been banished for collusion with Alliance/BlueSun (you know, heads shaven and clothes torn, alà post-WWII France) – she has been appointed as the official government liaison to all the various religious sects in the 'verse. The position she holds is the 'punny' Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs. Get it? Yeah, apparently, no one did the first time I posted it either...
_______________________________________________________

WEEK 3

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

Kaylee and Simon got married; there, I said it. WoI II victory remembrance is known as 'I-Day', short for Independence Day, and is a play on 'U-Day' as heard in the opening scene of TTJ. Please note that she has 6 children and lives on Jiangyin; I will explain further in the Explanation of Simon's quote (no skipping ahead!). I hoped the reader could envision her demure 'cork of a smile' as she delivered that last sentence... (Nota bene: This is the only one I changed after it’s original publication. I changed one word: ‘Jiangyin’)
_______________________________________________________

WEEK 4

(Of River) "Little Sis? I could see big things for her all along. Her and her brother both. I always knew they'd be worth something, y'know?"

- Jayne Cobb, Game Warden and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

In a fantastical flight of my own, Jayne and Wash have entered into a post-war partnership. Based on Wash's love of dinosaurs and Jayne's predilection for smackin' the herd (and big guns), I took some license and morphed it into "Cretaceous Park" on Hera, in tongue-in-cheek homage to "Jurassic Park". It always bothered me that T. Rex and Triceratops were prominent in that movie, even though those species were from the Cretaceous, not the Jurassic period. I figure Jayne would be a more sober man by this point, especially since he'd be missing a digit or limb – or three – by this point (heh-heh). His quote – that the Tams would both be worth something someday – is his attempt to conceal, by vagary of speech, his nearly continuous attempts to sell them to the Alliance/BlueSun.
_______________________________________________________

WEEK 5

"I felt sorry for River. If you can believe it, she was a frightened, confused child. Well... Things do change, don't they?"

- Zoë Warren, noted children's author, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

Zoë's a mommy! She hasn’t routinely carried a firearm since the end of WoI II. In addition to Wash, she has other children to raise now. How many? As many as she wants; who am I to deny her anything?

Occasionally, she helps out around the theme park, pulling Jayne's bacon out of the fire, et cetera; but, mostly she spends her time with her children. Because she is even-tempered and wise, she has taken to selling the stories she has concocted for her own children. These are a huge success all over the ‘verse, and as a result, her income supports the financially shaky "Cretaceous Park" venture. Her quote is representative of about half the posters on FFFn in its initial statement. The last comment is my speculation on how River's character would have changed during the remaining run of the series. Please note the disparate view of River, as compared to Wash's view in Week 6 quote. This neatly summarizes the tenor of hers and Wash's entire relationship, in my opinion.
_______________________________________________________

WEEK 6

"Even back when, River had that indefinable 'it', y'know? Inquisitive, insightful – Very focused... Some things never change."

- 'Wash' Warren, Chief Architect and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

As explained above, Wash is the head honcho, the 'brains' of the outfit, at "Cretaceous Park" (just don't tell Jayne). Heaven help them all... Or, as Wash himself might put it, "Wacky fun!" While not quite the tourist mecca Wash had originally envisioned, the park manages to stay afloat through subsidization by Zoë’s income, and a growing market for dinosaur meat (“Tastes like chicken! And look at that drumstick!”). This fortunate situation also suits Jayne, who’d much rather hunt dinos than herd ‘em; safaris are also more lucrative than zoo entry fees. Wash's quote is notable in that it is a 180-degree opposite of Zoë's, and approximates the other half of the posters at FFFn's opinion of River (mine included): That she is disoriented by her experiences at the hands of Alliance/BlueSun, but otherwise is an awesome intellectual specimen, whose powers have only been glimpsed, thus far.
_______________________________________________________

WEEK 7

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

As previously explained, Simon and Kaylee got married. During their first affaire de coeur, Simon decided to leave the outer rim worlds and return to his life in the Core. Kaylee initially joined him, but couldn't bear the false propriety of his associates and returned to the Border world, Jiangyin ("Safe"). There, she met and married a simple, hard-working, and loving man, and bore him two children: Malcolm and River. Her husband perished of the effects of malnutrition – surreptitiously cutting his own rations of food supplements in favor of his wife and children – and improper medical care. Simon, meanwhile, eventually comes to the same conclusion that Kaylee did previously, that Core society is unsuited to his ethics and unworthy of his devotion, and returned to the Border world of Jiangyin (where he and River were originally kidnapped by 'hill folk') – unaware that Kaylee has likewise settled there. He realizes he belongs where his skills as a doctor are genuinely needed. There, he and Kaylee are reunited (I even know exactly how to do it, but I'm keeping mum) and have an additional four children together. His quote is the truth as we already know it, and a play on Jubal Early's response to him in OiS when Simon posits, "So, you're a bounty hunter."

_______________________________________________________

WEEK 8

"I'm telling you right now. When all's said and done, that little girl's gonna change the world. Not just this little bit she's done here, neither; big things. I couldn't be prouder if she was my own daughter."

- Malcolm Reynolds, owner-operator of Firefly-class transport, "Serenity"; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

See River's Explanation, below.
_______________________________________________________

WEEK 9

"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."

- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

Explanation:

As much as I would like to claim genius of foresight (or at least, artful planning) when I began these 'quotes' nine weeks ago, I had no conscious inkling at the time that they would terminate on Memorial Day, not even as I constructed the last one as late as 5 weeks ago. The timing is strictly serendipitous, even though the message is relevant to the meaning underlying Memorial Day.

The Man is Malcolm Reynolds. I thought for sure everyone would get this right off the bat, and was surprised to find none did (or they kept mum, if they did). Perhaps his death is just too unthinkable to some fans. I didn’t intend for there to be any mystery; I just didn’t want his name said, because I felt Mal would want his actions to be treated like any other soldier’s. River was just honoring Mal’s wishes. I didn't cheat on the clues, though. His is the only quote spoken in present tense; all the others are in past tense. His occupation is what we know he does now, though it may likewise be (incorrectly) assumed that it would be his post-war occupation as well. His quote concerns River's first use as a strategic planner, at the outset of WoI II. Inara's quote shows her as being married to Mal; regardless the presumptions of the reader, she is a widow who still bears his last name. Even though JW may never 'kill' him on film, I would. (Although eerily, this same week JW said he’d started filming with Mal’s death scene. I thought, “You bastard, you’ve scooped me! You’ve been reading this board and figured out the ‘future quotes’… But, nah, none of those guys read this board, they only read the OB. It’s just a co-inky-dink.) This gets a bit convoluted, but bear with me, if you would care to comprehend my reasoning.

I believe Mal would have been offered a high military position, as a reward for being a member of the 'inner circle' of the new rebellion. While General 'Book' Wilkins accepts the proffered position of General of the Armies, and River becomes what Alliance/BlueSun designed her to be – a human strategic war planning computer, but aimed at them, rather than wielded by them – Mal turns down this offer, knowing he would be useless as a general officer. Instead, he accepts a commission as a Captain of a Special Forces unit, Zoë as his lieutenant, Jayne as a Master Sergeant, and Wash as a warrant officer army pilot (foreshadowed, last name 'Warren'; with apologies to Astriana, whom I know hates that name). They are assigned to the troop transport 'Serenity', and are involved in many daring special ops forays, beginning with the final episode of season 6. At season 7's series finale, he manages to keep Zoë and Wash aboard the ship, while he and the rest of his men undertake a near-certain suicide mission during the war's ultimate battle (Jayne was seriously wounded saving Mal's life in the preceding episode).

On the eve of this armaggedon Mal is reconciled with God, in the heartfelt prayer that he and his men will give a good account of themselves on the field of battle. I picture Mal as being rejuvenated, reenergized in his last moments, and returned by the nearness of death to the flamboyant and devil-may-care character we have witnessed in flashbacks of the first Battle of Serenity. They fight brilliantly; but, unfortunately for him and his command, they are doomed: the man carrying Malcolm's bullet finally finds him. But, their sacrifice is not in vain. It buys the time necessary for Wilkins' and River's 'deep-flank feint' maneuver to work (for my Dad: “See this hand? This is the one you’ve gotta watch out for”) in a crushing defeat of the Alliance/BlueSun armies. What does that make of Captain Reynolds and his men? It makes them the men History never knew because of the secrecy of their mission, those whom History stepped on, and yet... Big. Damned. Heroes.

In the aftermath of the battle, Zoë, Wash and Jayne return to 'carry' Mal home. In their spacesuits, they bury him on the ruined desolation of Shadow, where his family's ranch stood before the Alliance/BlueSun disabled the gravity generators and explosively outgassed that moon's atmosphere, during the first war for independence. As "The Ballad of Serenity" plays, we see not only the comrades in arms' expressions as they consign Mal’s remains to his home soil, but those of his other compatriots – Inara, Book, River, Simon and Kaylee – as they hear of Mal's death; by turns desolated, mournful and grim as they go about their duties in the new society his death and the death of countless thousands of others has helped forge.
_______________________________________________________

As a closing thought, Firefly is pregnant with possibilities at this point. It is not my right, my intent, nor my desire to collapse those possibilities to one concrete vision. Only one man has that right: Joss Whedon. I'm sure he'll do that – even if I've gotten very close to correctly guessing some outcomes – in a way that amazes us all. As Book said (paraphrased), "It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that's the worthier part."

I have no doubt that Joss will make us all glad we booked passage on his Firefly, Serenity...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."

- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Monday, June 7, 2004 1:53 AM

DELIA

Zoid,

I love it! Thank you so much for the explanation. Mysteries are fun as far as they go, but at some point, it's good to know how things ended. (And I like the Mal Reynolds stuff, though I thought my Book theory was fairly well supported, too.)

Sorry if my absence alarmed you (actually, it's nice to know someone noticed I disappeared for three days!). I'm home visiting my parents, which means much more limited internet than I'm used to.

I have a truly minor question about Kaylee and Simon. You gave us the names of her first 2 children -- what about the other four?

Delia

___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?

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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:26 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Very interesting and well thought out potential story line Zoid.

I did catch on to the fact that Mal's quote was in the present tense and everyone else's was in the past tense. I put two and two together and figured the "mystery" man that sacrificed his life for independence was Mal.

Honestly Mal dying in the cause of freedom seems "right". It would be a good death and would bring Mal full circle.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Monday, June 7, 2004 7:16 AM

NICOLACLARKE

Browncoat1 and Zoid: Hmm... part of me agrees that a glorious save-the-world type death would be a good one for Mal. But it also seems to me that so much of the show so far* has been about finding a way to live after the war. Might that not go as much for post-victory as post-defeat? The former can be just as difficult as the latter, sometimes. I'd be interested to see how Mal would function once he's accomplished his mission (I assume it will be his mission, eventually).

[ * note optimism/denial re. continuation

]

Life goes on, y'know? A bit like the idea behind Buffy season 6, although hopefully not as dull & depressing... *ducks*

I also think there will be many more twists and turns in the story yet. I find it hard to believe that Joss was planning to stay with exactly the same setup throughout the show - i.e. Independents good, Alliance bad. I'm hoping it'll become more nuanced than that. I guess things are heading that way with 'The Message' and 'Dead or Alive', showing that individual Independents can be somewhat unscrupulous, but Inara is thus far the only sympathetic pro-Alliance figure we've met - and that aspect of her hasn't been explored (yet).

It occurs to me now that she only said in 'Out of Gas' that she supported Unification. Past tense. I wonder if her time with Serenity and the border planets and Mal has changed her outlook at all?

Zoid, fascinating to see all the future quotes together and thank you v much for the explanations. I like the Book/Wilkins theory very much. Every time I re-watch an episode, I get more intrigued by that guy. I also love the irony that not-exactly-observant Jayne is consistently the only one (except in 'Safe') who raises doubts about him.

That said, I think you're possibly being a bit optimistic that the characters will a) nearly all survive, and b) remain in much the same couple-y permutations as they're in at the moment. Remember that this is a Joss Whedon show...

Nic

/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /

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Monday, June 7, 2004 7:55 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Nicolaclarke wrote:

Quote:
I also think there will be many more twists and turns in the story yet. I find it hard to believe that Joss was planning to stay with exactly the same setup throughout the show - i.e. Independents good, Alliance bad. I'm hoping it'll become more nuanced than that. I guess things are heading that way with 'The Message' and 'Dead or Alive', showing that individual Independents can be somewhat unscrupulous, but Inara is thus far the only sympathetic pro-Alliance figure we've met - and that aspect of her hasn't been explored (yet).

It occurs to me now that she only said in 'Out of Gas' that she supported Unification. Past tense. I wonder if her time with Serenity and the border planets and Mal has changed her outlook at all?

I have wondered this myself Nic, several times in fact. The flashback in OoG of Inara's touring the shuttle shows us that she did in fact support Unification. I wonder though if her attitude has changed at all, and if so, to what degree. Surely she has seen the neglect of border worlds by the Alliance. She has also seen first hand the heavy handed tactics of the Alliance in dealing w/ the crew of Serenity and others.

I wonder if Inara would be so quick to support Unification if she knew then what she knows now.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Monday, June 7, 2004 8:50 AM

ASTRIANA

I've loved this series of quote Zoid, and although you've stated that you wouldn't be writing a fanfic about it, it would be nice to read about all the twists and turns along the way... Perhaps you'd extend permission for one of the many talented fic writers here to flesh it out? (Just a thought...)

I was actually very surprised and gratified to see that I was right about River's quote being about Mal. That was my initial reaction, although I kind of backed off of that opinion and decided to wait and see after your "can you figure it out" challenge...

I thought that if I guessed it was Mal so quickly, there might be some form of misdirection involved.

Oh, and by the way...

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoid:
and Wash as a warrant officer army pilot (foreshadowed, last name 'Warren'; with apologies to Astriana, whom I know hates that name).

I actually don't hate the name, so much as refuse to accept it until I see it in canon. One of those "don't get locked in" situations...

I'd like to see what Joss has to say about keeping Wash's and Zoe's names so completely swathed in mystery (using the same "look over here" tactic, IMHO).

Overall, I've loved the series and how the story played out with the quotes. Nicely done, sir, nicely done.

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 8:56 AM

SHINYSEVEN

Delia asked: I have a truly minor question about Kaylee and Simon. You gave us the names of her first 2 children -- what about the other four?

AND who the fathers of the other two are--in this reading, Simon has four kids and Kaylee has six.

Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose

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Monday, June 7, 2004 9:01 AM

SHINYSEVEN

NicolaClarke said:

Quote:
It occurs to me now that she only said in 'Out of Gas' that she supported Unification. Past tense. I wonder if her time with Serenity and the border planets and Mal has changed her outlook at all?

Browncoat1 replied (snipped):

Quote:
The flashback in OoG of Inara's touring the shuttle shows us that she did in fact support Unification. I wonder though if her attitude has changed at all, and if so, to what degree..
I wonder if Inara would be so quick to support Unification if she knew then what she knows now.

She SAID it,sure, but I'm not convinced she meant it even then. I suspect that "there was something that bothered her" about Mal right off the bat, and she was just yanking his chain.

Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:06 AM

SHINY

AHHHHH!!! You should have put spoiler tags around that! Now you've spoiled all 6 seasons of soon-to-be-returned-to-network-TV Firefly!!!

Seriously, Zoid, that was ruttin' awesome. Way to go with all the ponderous creativisizing and imaginifying!

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:30 AM

KARENKAY99

very good zoid!! put a tear in my eye. i want to read the whole book now. tease.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Monday, June 7, 2004 11:11 AM

ZOID

Astriana wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps you'd extend permission for one of the many talented fic writers here to flesh it out?

Permission!? We don't need no stinking permission! Seriously, though... It's not my story to begin with; it's Joss'. But I'd be honored if somebody wanted to 'fic it out. Let me know when y'all get it up and I'll read it (or if you'd like any further explication of my thought process on some of the developments). Like I said, I have no plans to write stories based on JW's or any other writer's original ideas. I guess I just don't think I'd do them justice. Big picture, sure; nuanced individual motivations, not so much...

For me, the biggest hint Joss gave about the show's unrevealed past and future was contained in the lyrics of "The Ballad of Serenity". Being a former pro singer, I'm very sensitive to lyric content, I guess. "Burn the land and boil the sea" spoke to me of a horrific destruction of a planetary troposphere. Imagine immediately transfoming Earth's gravitational gradient to that of the Moon (1/16th Earth normal). The atmospheric pressure would immediately 'outgas' or explode the entire atmosphere (and everything in it) into outer space. Exposed to a hard vacuum, any remaining surface water would 'boil' away, too. (NB: There's a SFX I'd like to see in the movie, if done properly!)

I think that's what the Alliance/BlueSun did to Mal's homeworld, Shadow. It -- like most of the Border worlds -- is a moon or large asteroidal body, given an Earth normal gravity and atmosphere. "We made 'em as close to Earth-That-Was as we could," said Zoe in 'Serenity'. If Alliance/BlueSun -- in a very secretive way, of course -- turned off the gravity generator that gave Shadow its artificial Earth-normal gravity and immediately returned it to its natural moon-normal gravity: Boom! Instantaneous reversion to rocky planetoid. The whole ecosystem and everything that depends on it snuffed out in the blink of an eye.

I think Mal lost his family and his girl (take my love), his family's ranch (take my land) and everything else he ever loved or called home, when they turned a blue and green world into a charred, airless and lifeless rock (take me where I cannot stand).

I chose to bury him there, forever beneath a glorious starscape of a hundred billion diamonds that can only be fully apprehended in an airless environment. "I don't care, I'm still free; you can't take the sky (full of stars) from me."

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 318 days, 7 hours, 55 minutes, and 38 seconds left until The BDM!

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Monday, June 7, 2004 12:19 PM

ZOID

Delia:

Of course I missed you, Oh, Keeper of Knowledge, Mistress of Tomes! I could never work in a library, any more than I could in a candy store. Nobody'd ever be able to find me. I'd be stuck in the stacks, reading all day, and get the sack. I do envy those who do, though...

As to Kaylee and Simon's additional 4 children: name 'em what you'd like. I fancy they'd all be girls, just to vex Simon (given his uncanny knack for relating to females

). Although a gifted doctor, he's constantly befuddled around his girls, and makes 'em cry a lot ("Oh Daddy!" *sobbing and running to room* SIMON: "What'd I say!?"), but they -- like their Mom and the fems here at FFFn -- dote on their father.

If they're all girls, I figure one would be "Simone" after Simon, and one a "Georgina" (or whatever) after Kaylee's daddy. I don't really see any named after his parents, but I'm not looking that deeply into all the secondary relationships either. I can tell you it's gonna rain, but I can't tell you where and in what order the individual drops are gonna fall... Only God, er, Joss can do that.

I can tell you one thing I fancy about their kids, though. They are all smart, and helpful, and practical, and worldly wise beyond their years; they get precisely the best characteristics of both of their parents (with the exception of the 'black sheep', Alicious, who keeps getting caught by the local constable, up on Lookout Point with one neighbor's boy or the other. Heh-heh). They grow up to be doctors and teachers and Keepers of Knowledge on Jiangyin. They lead that world out of its need and 'politics of superstition', into prosperity.

Thanks again, Delia, for your indefatigable interest in the 'future quotes'. Your encouragement meant a lot to me.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 318 days, 6 hours, 47 minutes, and 44 seconds left until The BDM!

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Monday, June 7, 2004 12:53 PM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Although a gifted doctor, he's constantly befuddled around his girls, and makes 'em cry a lot ("Oh Daddy! *sobbing and running to room* SIMON: "What'd I say!?"),

"Oh, no dear, it's all right. He makes everybody cry; he's like a monster."

Quote:

If they're all girls, I figure one would be "Simone" after Simon, and one a "Georgina" (or whatever) after Kaylee's daddy. I don't really see any named after his parents, but I'm not looking that deeply into all the secondary relationships either.

Maybe a Jane (or perhaps some humourously masculine name

), just for the mutual irony.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 2:24 PM

MANATREE

Marvelous winding journey for all of the characters! Thanks for sharing your vision with us.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:18 PM

DARKARCHON

Zoid...

A great post and I enjoyed reading it immensely.

-Dark

P.S. I did get that River was talking about Mal even if I didn't consciously pick up on the tense change. It just seemed natural the way it was expressed that that was who she was talking about.

"Go on inside. Give your brother a thrashing for messing up your plan"

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 2:01 PM

JAHZARA

Wow.

I have been loving these quotes so much. I just couldn't wait to see how they ended. Wow.

I'm so glad you listed explanations. I got that River was talking about Mal, too. I also wondered about the 4/6 children. Interesting.

Yay for Mal and Inara getting married. I think if their relationship would have been allowed to fully develop, it would have been just incredible. Maybe Inara is buried on Shadow, too. At a later date. It's hard to think of them as having been married but not together, so I'm gonna have a little selective amnesia.

Thanks so much for the fun and speculation!

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 1:15 AM

MANTICHORUS

Wow...
I think... that's how Mal'd want to go out... being a 'big damn hero'...
I-I'm okay... :snf:

-------------------------------------------
"BADGER: You think you're better than other people.
MAL: Just the ones I'm better than."
-------------------------------------
"MAL: Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.
SIMON: Yes, I'm very proud."

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 1:42 AM

RELFEXIVE

Facinating...

It would be pretty damn shiny to get the full version of all of that, someday...

Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 6:11 AM

DELIA

Zoid,

You're welcome. I'm glad to have have provided encouragement. It wasn't hard to be interested in your quotes -- they were wonderful. I'm going to miss having a new one next Monday -- any chance you've got a sequel cooking away?

As for Simon and Kaylee's daughters, after telling me to name them, you named three of them. I propose, therefore, that Simone, Georgina, and Alicious are joined by Serena, named in honor of certain ship much beloved by her parents, and her Aunt River.

Poor Simon, surrounded by girls. I suspect he and Malcolm would band together out of self-defense (and shared waiting for the bathroom).

Delia

___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:10 AM

ZOID

Delia, Mistress of Tomes and Keeper of Knowledge:

I don't have anything planned as a follow-up, basically because I don't do fanfic. I could write lots of stuff, from lots of angles. But, as I've said before, I'm not going to, because it doesn't feel right to me. It's Joss' story, not mine, and I think I'd be leading people down a primrose path, that might seriously diverge from JW's. If he hired me as a writer, I'd go off on that bad boy; but I'd have to say chances of that happening are astronomical (galaxy, as compared to solar system).

I read the first installment of Zahn's Star Wars derivations, back during the (15-year?) hiatus from theaters that story took; I found it morally disturbing that someone else was telling the story, even if they were doing a much better job than I could have done. What if people like my storyline better? (Okay, that's not gonna happen, but it is a possible permutation.) What if some get confused between my vision of Firefly and Joss'? What if my character motivations and those of the official Firefly 'verse are disparate, but people remember mine at movie time and think, 'The movie didn't ring true'? What if I get everything as close to correct as (non-psychically) humanly possible, and everybody feels like they already know where all three movies in the series are going? Doing the whole 'logical analysis' yields a lot of possibilities -- some more probable than others -- but with JW's penchant for the improbable...

I just don't feel like risking ruination of the finest SF ever realized on film, any more than I already have. Already, I have noticed more than a few posters who have repeated my predictions, here and at other websites, and it makes me wish I'd said less.

Still, I'm captivated by the idea of 'Cretaceous Park'. A TV series could be made of it, but because of copyright entanglements, there never would be. But, it'd be damned funny, and one could work in the whole Firefly crew (including a thrice-resurrected Mal) on a regular basis. That'd be my choice for fanfic material from the quotes.

BTW: bung, dung, hung, rung, sung, tongue, and young.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 315 days, 19 hours, 0 minutes, and 5 seconds left until The BDM!

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:37 AM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

BTW: bung, dung, hung, rung, sung, tongue, and young.

Also, clung, flung, among, sprung, and strung. Though once you try to and the "s," some don't quite work.

Well, I'll miss having your future quotes each week, but I suspect I'll survive. Thanks again, it's been a blast.

Delia

___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:53 AM

FFFAN1

Zoid,
I've been meaning to ask since I first noticed your quotes. Why the name Richard Wilkins for Book? I get the Buffy reference, of course, but it seems a little... well... wrong for Book to share the name of the mayor/snake-demon of Sunydale, especially considering how seriously and deeply you've treated everything else. In any case, I've found the quotes fascinating, and definitely appreciate your creativity.

Keep Flyin'...

*************************************************
Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:59 PM

ZOID

FFFan1 wrote:

Quote:
Zoid,
I've been meaning to ask since I first noticed your quotes. Why the name Richard Wilkins for Book? I get the Buffy reference, of course, but it seems a little... well... wrong for Book to share the name of the mayor/snake-demon of Sunydale, especially considering how seriously and deeply you've treated everything else. In any case, I've found the quotes fascinating, and definitely appreciate your creativity.

Keep Flyin'...

Personally, I never knew it was a Buffyism until recently. I've never enjoyed BtVS or Angel. On the Firefly DVD set, disc 4, there are deleted scenes. In the deleted scene from "Serenity", Simon queries his Encyclopedia on search term Serenity. The playback states that the Independent army was defeated thanks to a brilliant "deep-flank maneuver" designed by General Richard Wilkins.

I believe 'Book; they call me Book' is actually General Richard Wilkins. He resigned his commission because the Alliance/BlueSun hierarchy intentionally delayed the peace process in order to maximize the suffering of the rebellious Independents. In shame, he entered the priesthood, as penance for his unwitting participation in this wanton act of cruelty and murder. His "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not! So where does that put you?" from OiS is directed at himself. All the other characters River reads look at her (or outward) when she hears their thoughts; Book is looking at his own hands, holding a knife (as he peels vegetables).

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 315 days, 3 hours, 6 minutes, and 43 seconds left until The BDM!

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 4:22 PM

DESANGRO

Incredible.

I love the way you've thought this thing out... very plausible scenario, I might add.

Just one thing: the Alliance destroyed Mal's homeworld?

Rough. And here I thought I was being brutal by having our good ol' Alliance boys confiscate Mamma Reynolds' ranch!

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Wednesday, June 16, 2004 2:05 AM

RAWDEAL

WOW is all I have to say to that, I'm just sorry I didnt hear of this site earlyer so I could've imagined the outcome of each quote as u wrote them

----------------------------
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:49 PM

MANTICHORUS

Zoid, last night I thought of a possible epitaph for Mal. I'd like your (and everyone else's) opinion on it...
~~Here lies the Biggest Damn Hero of them all. No-one could take the sky from him.~~

-------------------------------------------
"BADGER: You think you're better than other people.
MAL: Just the ones I'm better than." -Shindig.
-------------------------------------
"MAL: Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.
SIMON: Yes, I'm very proud." -Safe.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:00 PM

NEDWARD

Quote:
Originally posted by Mantichorus:
~~Here lies the Biggest Damn Hero of them all. No-one could take the sky from him.~~

I like it, kinda similar to "She saved the world. A lot." Perhaps a bit too Buffyverse to be plausible, though?

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:59 AM

KOHAN

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I think Mal lost his family and his girl (take my love), his family's ranch (take my land) and everything else he ever loved or called home, when they turned a blue and green world into a charred, airless and lifeless rock (take me where I cannot stand).

I did think that the title song had something to do with Mal's past. however, I'd never imagined that the planet.... "the entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've..."

anyhow, that was mighty insightful of you, thanks for sharin it with us.

"You know, they say mercy is the mark of a great man.

Guess I'm just a good man.

Well, I'm all right. "

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 1:03 AM

RELFEXIVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kohan:
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I think Mal lost his family and his girl (take my love), his family's ranch (take my land) and everything else he ever loved or called home, when they turned a blue and green world into a charred, airless and lifeless rock (take me where I cannot stand).

I did think that the title song had something to do with Mal's past. however, I'd never imagined that the planet.... "the entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've..."

Well... if it's been charred to a barren rock, that's easier than turning into big crispy chunks like Alderaan. So it's not completely impossible. Just need some serious WMDs.

Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:24 AM

ZOID

Umm, dudes:

If you read a little closer, you'll find that I said that all Alliance/BlueSun would have to do is turn off the gravity generator. Atmospheric pressure would do the rest, and explosively at that. No big guns required...

Any of the little moons and planetoids that have been terraformed to Earth-standard (gravity and atmo, according to Zoe) could be thus destroyed. I would think it would be a very expensive exercise in intimidation; but Alliance/BlueSun could write it off as a business expense once or twice. Great opinion changer on the other colonized worlds, vis-a-vis the whole "Which side are you on again?" question...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 308 days, 11 hours, 47 minutes, and 24 seconds left until The BDM!

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 8:44 AM

SKYDANCE

Quote:
His "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not! So where does that put you?" from OiS is directed at himself. All the other characters River reads look at her (or outward) when she hears their thoughts; Book is looking at his own hands, holding a knife (as he peels vegetables).

Brilliant. Rutting brilliant. I have to go back and watch that again, but I do believe you've sussed it.

Loved your vision of the future. Mal's quote being attributed to the owner of a Firefly Transport really jarred me; I couldn't imagine him continuing on while the others were gone. I didn't quite catch up to the concept that he died during the war, though, and it was a "prequel" quote.

________
"They weren't cows inside. They were waiting to be, but they forgot. Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:52 AM

LUPINADDAMS

Zoid,

thoroughly enjoyed the quotes and the deep structure of them. Two thoughts crossed my transom:

I like the idea of the destruction of Shadow etc - is there anything in canon that refers to it or is it another of your extrapolations (and if the latter, it works so very well with the theme song)?

One thing I couldn't suspend disbelief for - Kaylee has six daughters and only one of them is as sexually frisky as her mom? Especially with the no-doubt strong influence of their Auntie Inara... (Also I reckon the odds are at least one of them will be gay and at least two will experiment with bisexuality... another likely consequence of Auntie Inara's moral influence!)

OK maybe getting a *little* carried away here... blame my inner Goatboy!

Unlike many of the other folk here, I'm not sure a fanfic would quite work - some things deserve a shorter form. It'd be like expanding a set of haiku up to an epic...

Thanks again for giving us something to think about.

"You are what you do."
Andrew Vacchs

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:20 AM

KOHAN

yes, I did catch the turning off gravity generator part...

I just thought the star war bit would be funny

@.@ guess not

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, they say mercy is the mark of a great man.

Guess I'm just a good man.

Well, I'm all right. "

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:52 AM

GORAMSHINY

Speaking of this outgassing thing... amd his may be a tad spoiler for those who haven't had a gander at the "Draft Serenity poster" ( can't remember where that link was ) so just in case, and i hope i do this right...

Select to view spoiler:

In the poster there's a shot of serenity in the uper left corner and a planet in the lower right... with what's either a massive explosion ( a la outgassing ) or the Flare of Serenity's drive... cant tell which. Would be interesting if it's the former now wouldn't it?

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:03 PM

ZOID

LupinAddams wrote:

Quote:
I like the idea of the destruction of Shadow etc - is there anything in canon that refers to it or is it another of your extrapolations (and if the latter, it works so very well with the theme song)?

Nope. It is strictly a product of my imagination. I base the assumption on the lyric content of “The Ballad of Serenity”, words and music by Joss Whedon. If the song had been written by anyone else, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Written by another, “Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand,” might just be ‘purty words’. Written by Joss, I believe each word has significance to the Firefly (back?)story.

As far as the atmospheric outgassing is concerned, it just occurred to me that if the Alliance/BlueSun had the technology to give a moon or asteroid Earth-normal gravity, and an atmosphere of similar composition and density, then they also had the power to take them away. Here’s a little more research and another analogy to help visualize the effects of turning off a planetary gravity generator.

An atmosphere is (according to Encarta) a “mixture of gases surrounding any celestial object that has a gravitational field strong enough to prevent the gases from escaping; especially the gaseous envelope of Earth. The principal constituents of the atmosphere of Earth are nitrogen (78 percent) and oxygen (21 percent)… Normal atmospheric pressure at sea level is 1,013 millibars, that is, 760 mm (29.92 in) of mercury (related to the height of a column of mercury that the air pressure will support).”

According to NASA’s website (searched on ‘atmospheric pressure’), Earth’s atmosphere is so ‘heavy’ that it actually deforms the Earth’s surface. “Earth's atmosphere is pressing against each square inch of you with a force of 1 kilogram per square centimeter (14.7 pounds per square inch). The force on 1,000 square centimeters (a little larger than a square foot) is about a ton!” And there's quite a bit of square footage on a planetary surface, no?

Finally, from NASA, here’s their (more lucid) version of my analogy for y’all to think on:
“When a balloon is blown up, the air pressure inside the balloon slowly becomes greater than the air pressure outside the balloon. Since the balloon is made of rubber and is expandable, it grows larger and larger. When the balloon is popped (i.e., the gravity holding the column of atmospheric gases at sea-level pressures to the lunar surface is returned to 1/16th Earth normal with the flick of a switch), the air escapes instantly.” Obviously, this analogy is imprecise (or else it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be a description), but the sudden removal of gravity would be very much like a balloon's skin bursting. The atmosphere, released from its own weight trapping it to the 'celestial body' (weight is an effect of gravity) would violently rebound away from the surface.

As I’ve said before, the whole outgassing thing has never been discussed by anybody in relationship to the show. It just occurred to me that Alliance/BlueSun could shut down the generator (without getting caught doing it), and the effect would be utterly catastrophic.

And I’ll say it one more time: That’s a special effect I’d like to see in the movie, please. ZOIC, are you listening?

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 307 days, 22 hours, 1 minutes, and 41 seconds left until The BDM!

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Friday, June 18, 2004 1:01 PM

RELFEXIVE

I knew about the gravity generators thing too, was just commenting on the comments about the... let's just stop there.

In any case: gorram fine work

Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Friday, June 18, 2004 4:08 PM

PERIDIDDLE

That is brilliant. All of it. BRILLIANT. I love the speculation, the way everything connects and works, and, and *writersgush.*

I have the slight urge to write an fanfic based around this, I'm somewhat confused to admit. I rarely write fanfic, but this is almost too brilliant not to ponder on. Maybe several short stories spanning time would be better...but just to make sure, if I ever happen to use this, you're fine with it? Full credit all around, OF COURSE...

You're rutting brilliant. Bwahaha.

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Friday, June 18, 2004 4:20 PM

THEREALME

Great stuff, here. A very plausible future of Our Heroes. I really enjoyed it.

However, I'd like to comment on the moon-wide gravity generator idea. When you call a body a moon, that only means that it orbits a larger body that is not a star.

I get the distinct impression that when people are talking about moons here, they have in mind bodies of the size of Earth's moon or less. But if the Earth were in orbit around Jupiter, it would be a moon, too.

Now, I am not entirely discounting that Earth-like gravity could be generated on small asteroids, but I must be a bit skeptical. After all, we can air-condition our homes today, but working on a large enough scale to be effective for lowering the temperature of a PLANET is a bit more.

Just my opinion.

The Real Me

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Friday, June 18, 2004 9:20 PM

ZOID

THEREALME wrote:

Quote:
...However, I'd like to comment on the moon-wide gravity generator idea. When you call a body a moon, that only means that it orbits a larger body that is not a star.

I get the distinct impression that when people are talking about moons here, they have in mind bodies of the size of Earth's moon or less. But if the Earth were in orbit around Jupiter, it would be a moon, too.

Now, I am not entirely discounting that Earth-like gravity could be generated on small asteroids, but I must be a bit skeptical. After all, we can air-condition our homes today, but working on a large enough scale to be effective for lowering the temperature of a PLANET is a bit more...

As I said above (or elsewhere on this board, can't remember which), the manipulation of gravity is a godlike power. Right or wrong, plausible or not, I believe JW's Firefly has such manipulation as part of its root assumptions.

I base my assertion that the celestial bodies inhabited in the 'verse are both planetary and sub-planetary massive bodies on the following snippet from "Serenity, Part I" (emphases added to highlight canonical clues):

Quote:
DOBSON
I hear a lot of the border moons are
in bad shape. Plagues, and famine...

ZOE
Well, some of that's exaggerated, and
some of it ain't. All those moons --
just like the central planets,
they're as close to Earth-That-Was as
we could make 'em: gravity, atmosphere,
and such, but...

MAL
Once they're terraformed, they'll
dump settlers on there with nothing
but blankets, hatchets, maybe a herd.
Some of them make it, some of them...

In our solar system, the largest satellite is Ganymede, a Jovian moon.

Quote:
With a diameter of 5268 kilometers, Ganymede is the largest satellite in the solar system and larger than the planet Mercury. Ganymede and Callisto are similar in size and density. (From http://www.lpi.usra.edu/research/outerp/gany.html ) Ganymede is the largest satellite in the solar system. It is larger in diameter than Mercury but only about half its mass. Ganymede is much larger than Pluto. (From http://www.nineplanets.org/ganymede.html )

Earth's equatorial surface gravity (m/sec^2) is 9.78 as opposed to Mercury's 2.78 m/sec^2. This means that Mercury's gravity is roughly 1/3 Earth normal. Ganymede's surface gravity is only 1.42 m/sec^2, 1/7th that of Earth's.

Even the largest moon -- though it is larger in diameter than two planets in the system -- still has only 1/7th Earth's gravity. In order to give them Earth-like gravity, Alliance/BlueSun must have the technological capability to manipulate the gravitational fabric of the Universe.

I'm open to other suggestions, but I don't see how any other conclusions can be drawn. A gravity drive for a ship, sure. But we're talking about applying an Earth-normal gravity to a celestial body. It really doesn't much matter what size that body is, that's a heck of a trick and -- as with fission and (future) fusion powerplants -- entails a heck of a downside in case of catastrophic failure, too. Especially if the 'catastrophic failure' is a WMD application...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 306 days, 21 hours, 52 minutes, and 33 seconds left until The BDM!

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Friday, June 18, 2004 9:38 PM

ZOID

perididdle wrote:

Quote:
I have the slight urge to write an fanfic based around this, I'm somewhat confused to admit. I rarely write fanfic, but this is almost too brilliant not to ponder on. Maybe several short stories spanning time would be better...but just to make sure, if I ever happen to use this, you're fine with it? Full credit all around, OF COURSE...

Knock yourself out. As I stated above, I don't do fanfic (although, one might consider the 'future quotes' series a sort of fanfic, in their own right). You may have some competition, though; see my reply to Astriana above, dated Monday, June 07, 2004 - 10:11...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 306 days, 21 hours, 29 minutes, and 5 seconds left until The BDM!

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 5:04 AM

THEREALME

Zoid,

Yes and no.

I stand by my point about moons. A moon is a body that orbits a planet. It suggests nothing about size or mass, except that the moon is smaller in mass than its primary, or else the primary would be orbiting the moon.

While Ganymede is the largest sized moon in the solar system (talking about diameter), I am not sure if it is the most massive. I think it is mostly ice. So a smaller sized but denser moon could have more surface gravity.

If an earth-sized body orbited a gas giant, then it would be called a moon. It is true that our solar system has no such examples, but that doesn't mean that such a thing is impossible.

Certainly the people of the 'verse have the ability to manipulate gravity, but making the jump that they can influence planets is a mighty big leap in my opinon. As an analogy (if you don't like the air conditioning one) we have rockets now that can send space probes past Pluto. But we can't strap a rocket onto the Earth and take it for a spin.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I have to agree with you that Zoe's statement implies engineered gravity changes. That was something that I missed before.

Maybe I am dead wrong.

All I can say about that (respectfully and in the words of Mal) is "Huh!"

The Real Me

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