If you had to eliminate a Firefly character... by OPPYH

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

If you had to eliminate a Firefly character...

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 05:50
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VIEWED: 5247
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Friday, December 18, 2009 9:23 AM

Ok, just for the sake of discussion: If you had the power to guarantee Firefly a full first season(22 episodes) if you eliminated one of the crew aboard Serenity. Now I'm talking eliminate them from the start of the series, like they never even existed. Who would it be?

I would have to choose Book.

a) HE was usually made to feel unwelcome anyway by most of the crew

b) His character wasn't essential to the series...remember his death in the BDM wasn't even justified. We knew no more about him after his death as we did when he was alive and kicking.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the character of Book but given the choice, I'd have to let him go over all the others.

Just think No Jayne=No Jaynestown(perish the thought).

No Kaylee=No Kaylee/Simon romance in the making(I'm depressed just thinking about it).

What do ya'll think?

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Friday, December 18, 2009 10:07 AM

JONGSSTRAW

That's really not something I even want to speculate about. As for Book, he was essential to the show. He provided strength, wisdom, humor, and a moral compass when it was often needed.

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Friday, December 18, 2009 10:18 AM

CHAPTERANDVERSE

Probably Inara.

Select to view spoiler:

Joss was going to do this anyway, I think, with her illness. he was just going to make it as incredibly heartbreaking and poignant as possible. Damn his sudden yet not unexpected betrayal.[/spolier]

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Friday, December 18, 2009 11:48 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

This is just for the hell of it, since I really wouldn't want to eliminate any of the nine main characters, it would be as sacrilegious as eliminating Serenity herself.

But...if I had to choose, I agree with ChapterandVerse...Inara would be least missed. The romantic tension could have been transferred into an unresolved triangle between Mal, Zoe and Wash.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, December 18, 2009 11:49 AM

STORYMARK

Simon. Just never cared that much for him. At least, not as much as the others.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 18, 2009 11:53 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Simon. Just never cared that much for him. At least, not as much as the others.

Then explain how River would have ended up on Serenity.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, December 18, 2009 11:58 AM

PLATONIST

So...would the UST be between Mal/Wash or Mal/Zoe?

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Friday, December 18, 2009 12:02 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
So...would the UST be between Mal/Wash or Mal/Zoe?

Well, you know Joss has at times teased that he is a bit gay, so you never know.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, December 18, 2009 12:09 PM

PLATONIST

Well, then, it's Mal/Simon for the UST, which many believe is already there, and the Companion is also a mechanic;)

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Friday, December 18, 2009 12:12 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Simon. Just never cared that much for him. At least, not as much as the others.

Then explain how River would have ended up on Serenity.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

Why? No one else is qualifying their answers, there was no "and make the story work" criteria. Any character being lost would require changes to the story - so who cares? I don't like the character, sue me. Let him bring her on, and Dobson kills him, if you have such an inexplicable need for an answer.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 18, 2009 12:20 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Sorry man, wasn't trying to rile you up. Just a friendly discussion among folk.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, December 18, 2009 12:30 PM

STORYMARK

I over-reacted. It was a reasonable question. Apologies.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 18, 2009 1:47 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Well, Simon's my favorite character, not to mention the one that got me hooked on the show and kept me interested through the first few eps in the first place, so no Simon would have = no Firefly for me;)

Part of the trouble you run into though was a huge part of the reason Firefly was what it was was BECAUSE of a group of various, diverse characters that all fit each other so seamlessly. I hear what folks might mean by dropping say Book or Inara (or Wash) as they didn't have as much to do with creating a central arc or moving it forward...however I would argue that their mere presence made the show what it was, and added depth to all the other characters by their interactions, and showed us so much about the 'Verse itself. I just don't think Firefly would have worked the way it did, or would have had the same magic, if any of them were left out!

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Friday, December 18, 2009 1:57 PM

PLATONIST

Good points bunnyman, and since Firefly is essentially a Western set in space, literary wise, the gunslinger, the preacher, the Doc and the whore are quintessential characters of this genre, making Book, Simon and Inara important in meeting the genre’s themes and setting for the show.
And, in the Serenity Companion Joss says they were some of the earlier characters he knew he needed and envisioned.

So let’s not be so quick to vote them off the boat, because I love them as dearly as I do the others.

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Friday, December 18, 2009 7:26 PM

BYTEMITE

As an addendum to this, I can't think of many Westerns were there ISN'T a doctor. Hell, Alan Tudyk played a doctor (and veterinarian. XD) in 3:10 to Yuma.

It's definitely a staple, and has been since Doc Holiday (though actually, he was a dentist. Go figure).

And of course, the very important role of the "broken doves." Brothel women with hearts of gold, says it all right there.

I can't think of many preachers, though admittedly that's probably because I don't pay attention.

Who would I vote out? >_> I know the show is named Firefly, but she was bound to crash someday... Much as the setting pulled the crew together, the CREW was the show I think.

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:18 AM

ZZETTA13

There’s a guy standing way in the back when Serenity lands on Persephone for the first time. He doesn’t have a name and he’s in the shot for about three seconds. That guy really annoys me! I would eliminate him. He’s the one character I think Firefly and the BDM could do without. Come to think of it I didn’t see him in the BDM so I assumes that his character was so unpopular that Joss scratched his name off the list….lol

Maybe the only other person I would have eliminated after his short 15 seconds of fame would be the fellow that approached Shepherd Book and called him “Grampa” at the beginning of the Serenity pilot episode. That, “I’m not a grandpa” so get lost answer that the preacher gave him seemed to have worked.

Really, just as ECGordon said in his first post. I think that eliminating any character early on would have changed the dynamic of the short run tv series and changed Firefly altogether. So imo I really don’t want to see anyone gone.

I can tell ya that I will not be able to see any new FF/Serenity creation and not be sad seeing Wash and Shepherd Book if they are in it. Joss changed the whole feel of the show with the loss of those characters in the BDM and if by the grace of the Almighty we would get more FF( pre BDM) that would be shiny, but I would still be sad for Alan and Ron and knowing what happens to them in Serenity.

Z

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 5:09 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

@ zzetta13 - I hated that guy too! The way he blinked was annoying!

Since you asked... I'd have to go with Simon also, even though his character brings out so much in Mal and Jayne.
I'd say he could have died at the end of Serenity. His death there would actually make a lot more sense to me than the other 2 in terms of motivation, the thing that made her finally snap.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:22 AM

ZZETTA13

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
@ zzetta13 - I hated that guy too! The way he blinked was annoying!

Since you asked... I'd have to go with Simon also, even though his character brings out so much in Mal and Jayne.
I'd say he could have died at the end of Serenity. His death there would actually make a lot more sense to me than the other 2 in terms of motivation, the thing that made her finally snap.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com]

@ Prizmobeach,

Yeah, the way he blinked and the way he picked his teeth with that Bowie Knife really got on my nerves……ha..ha

Z

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 2:37 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

With only 9 principals, everybody is pretty close to filling a unique niche.

The closest thing to a duplication is Zoe and Jayne as thug/ enforcer/agent of violence. And since they both bring other important aspects, at least Zoe as history and married woman, and Jayne as comic relief,you couldn't remove either of them without losing a lot...

The other choice would be Kaylee/River as teenage girl in distress. Same deal- you'd also have to lose the Mechanic, and the voice of Optimism, or the maguffin that makes the whole show work.

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 10:57 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Although I'd hate to lose one of the BDH, what seems the least impacting dimension would be the character of Zoe. The others pull the dynamics in opposing directions, Zoe is more centering. Mal's character would be less defined and would have less foundation, but that could be worked elsewhere. But Joss specifically wanted a working, functional marriage to be present. So maybe Mal's female comrade and now pilot is married to, like, Jayne?

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:32 AM

RATTYBATTY

River.

I think Firefly's biggest weakness was being so centred on Mal who, while really cool, didn't really have any quest to fulfil (although this was fixed in Serenity).

If you didn't have River then the whole arc of the first season would be finding and saving her. Simon could become a more central figure, forcing the crew to confront the Alliance in his desire to find his sister and thus provide a counter to Mal's desire to stay out of trouble.

Firefly needed a Luke Skywalker as well as a Han Solo.

Although this would require her to still actually exist somewhere in the Verse.

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 2:23 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by RattyBatty:
River.

I think Firefly's biggest weakness was being so centred on Mal who, while really cool, didn't really have any quest to fulfil (although this was fixed in Serenity).

If you didn't have River then the whole arc of the first season would be finding and saving her. Simon could become a more central figure, forcing the crew to confront the Alliance in his desire to find his sister and thus provide a counter to Mal's desire to stay out of trouble.

Firefly needed a Luke Skywalker as well as a Han Solo.

Although this would require her to still actually exist somewhere in the Verse.

ha, that's a really interesting scenario, actually. and it probably would have brought on the reciprocal punching (on Simon's part) a little earlier;) It seems like there were a lot of people who didn't get River's character earlier on, and this might have been a way to solve that by introducing her later as well as everything else you mentioned. Hard to say, hard to say.

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:32 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
The other choice would be Kaylee/River as teenage girl in distress. Same deal- you'd also have to lose the Mechanic, and the voice of Optimism, or the maguffin that makes the whole show work.

I'd say that Kaylee would be the easiest one to eliminate in terms of storyline disruption. Everybody else pretty much has at least one episode built around them. Wash can handle the mechanics and River can take over most of Kaylee's other roles (apart from the UST with Simon, of course. ick!). River at the ball in Shindig could have been all sorts of fun...

That's not to say we'd want to eliminate her: having a female mechanic who isn't a feisty tomboy from Central Casting is such a change from the usual Hollywood cliche...

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Monday, December 21, 2009 5:32 AM

ZZETTA13

I must respectfully disagree INH,

Kaylee is/was essential to the crew of Serenity. If it hadn’t been for the talented mechanic the Firefly saga would have ended at OMR. Wash is a fantastic pilot and maybe a better’n average grease monkey when it comes to a ships actual moving parts, but I do believe that if it hadn’t been for Miss Kaylee the crew of Serenity would have been fried by the scrap ship. Wash actually wanted her expertise on the bridge.

What other mechanic could have given Mal the “Ivan” in the Serenity pilot eps? And who else has a smile that can warm a preacher’s heart and allow him passage on your ship for a box of strawberries? I do believe Shepherd Book would have never made it aboard Serenity, lets say if Zoe or Wash had been directed by Mal to encourage passengers to list aboard…..and can you imagine anyone wanting a trip on the Firefly transport if Jayne had been seated out front twirling that umbrella?

IMO, Malcolm Reynolds has assembled a crew that is one of the BEST of the BEST. Maybe by accident but things like that do happen.

The crew of Serenity needed Kaylee. I do think things happen for a reason, the “Butterfly Effect” if you will. If a butterfly flaps it’s wings in the Philippines, could make for a mild winter in Nantucket. If not, then you may want to stock up your food supply and get ready for a lot of snow.

Z

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Monday, December 21, 2009 6:50 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
If it hadn’t been for the talented mechanic the Firefly saga would have ended at OMR

Well... Not quite. Kaylee wasn't able to fix the ship in time for them to change their trajectory, which is why Jayne needed Chekov's gun - I mean, Vera - to shoot out the net.

But I grant you, Serenity is falling apart. They need a mechanic.

Really, they need everyone. (Tvtropes warning)

Mal has to make the hard choices (The Captain/Team Dad/The (Byronic) Hero). Zoe is the calm rationality that has to keep the captain's bitterness and bravado in check when he's making those hard choices, not that he ever listens (The Lancer). Jayne functions as the crew's voice for their wants and needs (The Jerkass/The Big Guy). Kaylee (the Chick/Wrench Wench) and Wash (The Smart Guy #1/Deadpan Snarker) are Team Morale Boosters, in addition to being pilot and mechanic. That's the core crew, a variation on the Five Man Band, but pretty close to standard.

Simon (The Smart Guy #2), Book (The Mentor), and Inara (Team Mom) are the voice of ethical concerns with Mal's plans and represent the forces working for the spiritual redemption and healing of the crew. I'd even call Inara the "morality pet" because of the effect that her leaving has on Mal. Book is the biggest element of the spiritual redemption during the series, I imagine post movie that Inara is around more and that shifts to her.

River is a living MacGuffin. And psychic.

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Monday, December 21, 2009 7:48 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
I must respectfully disagree INH,

Kaylee is/was essential to the crew of Serenity.

I think what we're doing is violently agreeing with one another that one of the reasons the show worked was that it had a great ensemble cast, and losing any one of them would leave a hole and require major plot surgery in most episodes.

I'm just thinking at the episodes that would be completely written off by the absence of a particular player. I don't think Kaylee really had an episode in which she was one of the main 2-3 protagonists. Book is maybe in the same group: but he obviously had a Big Secret.

Quote:

And who else has a smile that can warm a preacher’s heart and allow him passage on your ship for a box of strawberries?

I've always been of the persuasion that Book (that ain't no shepherd) was probably tailing Simon and River, and would have got onto the ship by hook or by crook.

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Monday, December 21, 2009 8:24 AM

BYTEMITE

I think Joss once said that Book and Inara are the only two characters who have no ulterior motive to being on the ship, which seems bizarre to me, because they're the two with the biggest secrets. That might have been subject to change, I can't imagine Joss is the kind of guy to leave a potential good storyline untouched.

Theoretically, relationship dynamic-wise, you could take out or alter any two of the three morality voices, which we saw in the movie (need I add, with disasterous results? but I digress). You have to have at least one morality voice, a.k.a. "the person who makes sure the rest of the team don't kill each other."

I don't see anyone in the original five man band who could take up the role of morality voice, not even Kaylee, she has never demonstrated to me that she is or would be able to dissuade Mal from going dark, her protestations against Mal kicking Simon and River off in the movie are feeble at best. Neither is Zoe capable of convincing Mal that they shouldn't have left that one guy to the Reavers. Both of these instances I think were intended to show that someone else is needed.

Mal is clearly more likely to listen to Book or Inara than he is Simon, but Simon is important in his own way. The core five would have to be altered for someone to take out the extra morality voices. Which, if you really WANTED to, you could do it, I guess, but it's not without some sacrifices. Redemption would no longer be a theme, particularly Mal's redemption, which I see as a major character arc, so what we would see instead is a really tragic downward spiral for Mal, and he'd drag the rest with him.

Also theoretically, you could potentially remove one character from the Five Man Band and make it a Four Temperament Ensemble. I'm pretty sure Kaylee is sanguine and Mal is choleric. The other two are melancholic and phlegmatic, neither of which fit Jayne, but which Zoe and Wash share elements of. Off hand, I'd say Zoe is more likely to be melancholic and Wash is phlegmatic, but supposedly phlegmatic is the stoic watchful one, and melancholic is kind and creative (though depressed? Wash? Perish the thought!).

Another way to look at this is expanded to the FIVE Temperaments, with the fifth temperament being supine, a non-confrontational, friendly, nervous sort. This could sound like Wash, but the other two combined describe Zoe pretty well, and Jayne still doesn't fit.

But of course, no Jayne, no Jaynestown.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:50 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I don't see anyone in the original five man band who could take up the role of morality voice,

( snip some.)

Neither is Zoe capable of convincing Mal that they shouldn't have left that one guy to the Reavers.

Somebody, somewhere wrote that being military means putting your own judgement on hold and accepting that of your superiors, following orders and doing your job.
That's Zoe, most always. Her personal loyalty to Mal means accepting his judgement. He might ask her to weigh in, as he does in Trash, but I don't think we ever saw a case where she really disagreed with him over a mission.
I think if there ever came a case of her saying, " Sir, we really mustn't do this, it's just too dangerous, and it's wrong," he'd listen.
I think her main axis is practicality and risk, and maybe honesty, rather than morality. Simon asks her in the Pilot, " And if he tells you to shoot me?," and she replies to his face, "Then I shooot you." Practicality, honesty, but no moral qualm. But if pushed far enough, I think she'd make a moral choice.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:16 AM

SAB39

I'm gonna bend the rules (and be a bit sacrilegious) and say that I'd eliminate Serenity. Every human member of the crew is essential to the chemistry that made the show work - you can't lose any of them. (Which I think is why the series is better than the movie - the movie effectively eliminated Book and Inara and without them as part of the crew the sense of family was gone. As it was meant to be for the plot of course, but still).

Losing Serenity would hurt, but not in the same way. Mal and Inara are united in their love of the ship, and it'd feel wrong to put them in a different space that isn't their home, but I don't think it'd destroy the chemistry of the cast in the same way. Hell, you could have Saffron or someone steal Serenity outright and leave the crew stranded on Persephone, and set an entire season 2 in that environment (and then once they get renewed for season 3 then Joss can negotiate a higher budget to get the Serenity set rebuilt) :)

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:42 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
I think if there ever came a case of her saying, " Sir, we really mustn't do this, it's just too dangerous, and it's wrong," he'd listen.
I think her main axis is practicality and risk, and maybe honesty, rather than morality. Simon asks her in the Pilot, " And if he tells you to shoot me?," and she replies to his face, "Then I shooot you." Practicality, honesty, but no moral qualm. But if pushed far enough, I think she'd make a moral choice.

I agree with this, mostly, especially your last paragraph.

But twice in the movie Zoe disagrees with Mal on the basis of ethics and morals. The first time was with leaving the man behind. She didn't speak up at all, not until they were back on the ship, when it was too late to change anything. If she takes up the role of moral voice, that's less then helpful. The second time was when Mal orders them to tie up their friends and turn their ship into a Reaver ship, but Mal was unreachable at that point, he'd gone too dark, was too angry over Book's death. Zoe clearly complied with the order and his choices, again, despite her expression that she feels that his choice was repugnant (though like leaving the guy behind perhaps not wrong).

The moral voice HAS to speak up, and preferably they need to not be a subordinate, so that they feel more like they can speak frankly and refuse orders they disagree with. That's why Book is so effective as a moral voice. Heck, in Those Left Behind, Book socks Mal in the jaw when he's being a hump to Inara (and everyone else in general). Similarly, Simon ALSO decks Mal in the movie. And Inara doesn't have to resort to violence, she can coerce Mal using his feelings to do the right thing, which we see in the pilot episode when she asks him not to kick Simon and River off.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:50 AM

BYTEMITE

sab39:

It's not sacrilegious, I said the same thing. :) If you had to get rid of a crew member to save on costs, I still think the best option is the tenth crewmember. Could be done SO many ways, and done well, Serenity crashes, Serenity stolen, and we get to see the crew landbound and probably going stir crazy. Fun! Most of their heists take place planetside anyway. Maybe they could take a leaf out of Mal4Prez' books and make the crew have to pay off a hefty parking ticket.

I'm only exploring theoretically who could be gotten rid of, not on the basis of who I think isn't important to the show's dynamics or THIS plot (no one is extraneous), but rather in the sense of common story/character construction and role distribution.

But if you removed anyone, it probably wouldn't be the same show. So I don't advocate removing anyone.

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