AVATAR Report... by out2theblack

(I apologize in advance for the angry tone of this post, but having lived within a shamanistic community for years, the casual use of the word "savage," the way the word is so gleefully tossed around by white people on the Internet when discussing cultures they barely know anything about, let alone understand, really pisses me off.)

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Wow HK - so the message of "Only a white male can save the savages" didn't bug you just a lil' bit? My heart didn't exactly like that part.

Wow right back at ya, pizmo!

That's quite a hostile gloss you bring to the table. That was the message you got from your experience in the theater? Really?

Y'know, sorry if this doesn't exactly pertain to your view, but I gotta call b.s. on this freakin' "noble savage" meme getting promoted around the Interwebs. When ya get right down to it, how the heck do y'all know they aren't noble? You ever met any? You ever spent any time with 'em, took the time to learn what their culture might have to teach? Or are y'all just so comfortable with your cultural supremacy--your "they don't even have a written language!"--that "noble savage" is a de facto oxymoron in your books, and the folk you imagine to hold indigenous culture in such high regard necessarily delusional?

But getting back to your post, pizmo, as Frem pointed out, something not in the story, which you bring to the story, must have blinded you to the simple facts of the story.

Select to view spoiler:

"White male" was not alone, after all, could not have succeeded alone ("White male" was merely the protagonist, the story could have been told from any number of characters points of view, but not quite so efficiently, since Jake Sully was the common denominator in all their lives). And holy crap, he and his people brought astonishing generational misery to the folks you fancy he "saved!" How does that work, exactly? Why isn't your story, "White male, finally, takes responsibility for 'white' culture's horrendous destructive capacity and actually manages to stop the near-inevitable process in this single case by supplying the victims of said atrocity with the information they needed to recognize the true threat the invaders represented and stop them?"

And, btw, "white male" had to give up being "white male" in the bargain, didn't he?

I'm sorry, but this really drives me up a wall. You go along with the story only up to the point when the metaphor no longer supports some cherished notion or other and then you stop paying attention.

Select to view spoiler:

His story is about being betrayed, thoroughly betrayed, by one culture and being embraced by another. It's a story of a man waking up to find a purpose in a life he'd all but thrown away. It's a story about personal healing and bringing an end to a genocide. For cryin' out loud, "white male" was simply doing the right thing!

And even if you credit Jake and Grace with giving the Na'vi the information they needed to push back the invasion, thus "saving" them, it was the leader of the Na'vi who made the important decision to let Jake live among them with the explicit purpose of learning more about the danger Jake's species bring to his people. And, if you take the story on its own terms, it was Eywa Herself who gave Neytiri the signal not to kill Jake outright but to protect him. Seems to me "white male" didn't "save the savages," seems the "savages" saved li'l "white male."

It is, perhaps, sad that the state of our dominant culture seems to require such proxy or bridge characters as Jake Sully to bring the audience to embrace an "alien" culture, but that's not racism, that's just training wheels.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 10:58 AM

Frem, rereading your post after the blast furnace has cooled down, and dayum! Well put, my friend!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 11:31 AM

For Folk that have been there , done that , and are still wanting the T-shirt :

http://www.stylinonline.com/avatar.html

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 12:33 PM

... fully loaded, safety off...

spoilers ahead

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
(I apologize in advance for the angry tone of this post...

fwiw HK, you never need to apologize to me on any forum if you are being genuine.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
... but having lived within a shamanistic community for years, the casual use of the word "savage," the way the word is so gleefully tossed around by white people on the Internet when discussing cultures they barely know anything about, let alone understand, really pisses me off.)

So you think only you can know that? This seems incredibly presumptuous to me. And how do you know these "people on the Internet" are white people btw? Do you assume to know who/what each of us are?

I think you completely missed the meaning of my post. I mean completely. If so then pay no mind to the argumentative stuff that follows and we'll just chalk it up to the limits of forum communications.

Otherwise, perhaps you had a message you couldn't wait to bring up and decided what I was saying was in the way?

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Y'know, sorry if this doesn't exactly pertain to your view, but I gotta call b.s. on this freakin' "noble savage" meme getting promoted around the Interwebs. When ya get right down to it, how the heck do y'all know they aren't noble? You ever met any? You ever spent any time with 'em, took the time to learn what their culture might have to teach? Or are y'all just so comfortable with your cultural supremacy--your "they don't even have a written language!"--that "noble savage" is a de facto oxymoron in your books, and the folk you imagine to hold indigenous culture in such high regard necessarily delusional?

That's actually my point. They don't need saving from us, as in WHO THE F*CK DO WE THINK WE ARE (white male)? The same white male arrogance that led us into Iraq, the same, "They need our saving," the subtext of which is the blindingly stupid, "Since we don't understand them they must be wrong, they don't *blank* like us so they must be savages. They must be made to be like us and then they will be saved."

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why isn't your story, "White male, finally, takes responsibility for 'white' culture's horrendous destructive capacity and actually manages to stop the near-inevitable process in this single case by supplying the victims of said atrocity with the information they needed to recognize the true threat the invaders represented.

Hello, my point! Again it's the myth of the white male saviour.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And even if you credit Jake and Grace with giving the Na'vi the information they needed to push back the invasion, thus "saving" them, it was the leader of the Na'vi who made the important decision to let Jake live among them with the explicit purpose of learning more about the danger Jake's species bring to his people. And, if you take the story on its own terms, it was Eywa Herself who gave Neytiri the signal not to kill Jake outright but to protect him. Seems to me "white male" didn't "save the savages," seems the "savages" saved li'l "white male." It is, perhaps, sad that the state of our dominant culture seems to require such proxy or bridge characters as Jake Sully to bring the audience to embrace an "alien" culture, but that's not racism, that's just training wheels.

Of course their God loves the white man! And not just likes him, but chooses him (and not a Na'vi of course). And look at the rapid ascendancy of the white man as he easily grasps their culture and physical challenges, so easy for a white dude!

And while Jake makes pleads the case for them to stand and fight and risk their lives instead of leaving to live and fight another day, all he risked was the life of his avatar (kind of like a remote control drone).

Funny, I feel like a reverse Wulf arguing against the stereo-type of the dominant white male Jesus figure, that only the white man can save us, and everyone who isn't white needs saving.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 3:13 PM

(General warning: if you're following this back and forth between me and pizmobeach, you've already encountered many spoilers--read this post and you will encounter still more.)

Well, pizmo,

I don't know, I certainly don't disagree with you in principle about racism, imperialism, white-man's-burden and the like, I just don't think the movie disagrees with you either! lol

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
fwiw HK, you never need to apologize to me on any forum if you are being genuine.

I appreciate that.

Quote:
So you think only you can know that?

No. But I think that knowledge is rare on the Internet.

Quote:
This seems incredibly presumptuous to me.

That makes two of us.

Quote:
And how do you know these "people on the Internet" are white people btw? Do you assume to know who/what each of us are?

Now see, now, now, now. I know for a fact some of these people on the Internet ARE white--I'm talking about a phenomenon I have come across throughout my stay here in cyberspace. I thought I'd made it clear that I was speaking of the Internet as a whole--not the denizens of this forum only. I do not know the cultural background of every person in this forum. I do not, off hand, know yours--nor did I make assumptions about yours. On the contrary, that's why I say things like "...sorry if this doesn't exactly pertain to your view, but..." and "this freakin' "noble savage" meme getting promoted around the Interwebs..." I was speaking generally. The term "savage" used in this way has mostly been used by ignorant people--a lot of 'em, I have noticed, culturally "white" (I would go so far as to say that the use of "savage" in this context is culturally "white")--who know next to nothing of the cultures they're disrespecting with the term. I'm sorry, there's no okay context for this word for me. To me, you might as well be saying the "n" word--I don't care if you're being ironic or putting the word in someone else's mouth, it's ugly.

Quote:
Otherwise, perhaps you had a message you couldn't wait to bring up and decided what I was saying was in the way?

I'm sorry, I tried to be clear when I was addressing you specifically and when I was generalizing. I did have a message clambering to be brought up about the "noble savage" meme that I've had to deal with for weeks now as people try to pigeonhole this movie AVATAR and dismiss metaphysical traditions of which they manifestly have no understanding. Your flippant summation of the movie's message was the touchstone for my remarks.

Quote:
They don't need saving from us, as in WHO THE F*CK DO WE THINK WE ARE (white male)? The same white male arrogance that led us into Iraq, the same, "They need our saving," the subtext of which is the blindingly stupid, "Since we don't understand them they must be wrong, they don't *blank* like us so they must be savages. They must be made to be like us and then they will be saved."

Okay, see, now you've lost me. The movie is entirely congruent with this statement. Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" In what way was he "making them like us" in order to save them? At every turn in his personal story I see him moving toward humility and far from making the natives like "us," it is Jake who is going through an absolute transition in the opposite direction!

Y'know, there's the whole backstory around the school the humans started to "help" the natives in just the ways you decry. But the movie bears out what you know to be true: it was a bad thing, destroyed the humans' credibility with the natives and Sigourney Weaver's character was clearly ashamed of her involvement with that and had by the time the movie started, changed her attitude extensively. The experience had obviously afforded her the opportunity to learn a good deal of respect for the natives, to the point where she was pretty committed to undermining the mining operation and manipulating Sully to that end.

Your analogy of Iraq just doesn't match up with Sully's story. You seem to be saying that Sully has no right to realize that what the corporation is doing is wrong and choosing to help the natives. You seem to be saying that revolution from within doesn't happen. You seem to be suggesting that it just isn't possible for white people to go against their culture and actually help native peoples. He is instrumental to the narrative for some specific reasons, none of which have anything to do with his being white--though his being a member of the military culture that brought him to Pandora and privy to its secrets do make him uniquely useful to the Pandoran cause.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
"White male, finally, takes responsibility for 'white' culture's horrendous destructive capacity and actually manages to stop the near-inevitable process in this single case by supplying the victims of said atrocity with the information they needed to recognize the true threat the invaders represented.

Hello, my point! Again it's the myth of the white male saviour.

Wha-a-at? Where is your "white male savior" in this story? He's a white male turn-coat or a white male who pulls his head out of his ass and becomes part of the solution rather than the problem. Not a savior. He was necessary, I grant you, but he only had a role to play based on his position as being a person between worlds, lost to his people and working to be accepted by another. Is he a "savior" 'cause he got himself the big red flying beast so people would listen to him? I mean, at best ya got a "white male with leadership ability," but not a savior. It's not so much his specific "whiteness" as it is his "outsider status" that gives him the power to solve the problems he's faced with in the peculiar ways that he does. Outsiders are traditionally distrusted, but many of the heroes throughout many cultures begin as outsiders, strangers.

I don't see how any of his transformative choices are the typically "white" ones--quite the opposite. And the movie is explicit: HE'S PART OF THE PROBLEM until he wises up. He comes as part of the imperialist, paternalist culture you despise at the top of the movie, but the whole point of the story is how he leaves all that behind. You, pizmo, seem stuck in this myth--while the movie moves well beyond it.

Is your problem that the natives (and the movie) forgive him for crimes you think are unforgivable?

Quote:
Of course their God loves the white man! And not just likes him, but chooses him (and not a Na'vi of course). And look at the rapid ascendancy of the white man as he easily grasps their culture and physical challenges, so easy for a white dude!

Should the God hate Jake Sully? Are you saying that the God loves Jake more than the native people? Wasn't the hope of integrating Jake Sully into the native way of life the best way to handle the catastrophic situation that had already been set in motion? Isn't it one of the oldest methods in history to quell hostility between two peoples by intermarriage??? That's pretty much what it boils down to, don'it?

And in my experience, shamanistic metaphysics is extremely simple, intuitive and easily grasped IF you get out of your own way, move outside your cultural norms and just pay attention, both inwardly and outwardly--a lot of people just take a long time to get out of their own way. A real long time. The regular members of the science team were unable to get out of their own way. They were, in the view of the natives, disintegrated people, disconnected from their bodies, they had no wisdom to offer. They were fools. This new one was at least a warrior, at least familiar with his own power. And he was actually able to get out of his own way and learn to see the world that was right in front of him. The ability to get out one's own way is not a norm within white culture as I've experienced it. These are shamanistic values common to traditions throughout the world and throughout history.

Another reason he was up to the physical challenges was, as you note, the fact that he's functioning remotely through an avatar body! Risk is not the same for him as it is to a normal person, human or Na'vi, is it? This circumstance predisposes him toward heroic action, not his whiteness.

Quote:
And while Jake makes pleads the case for them to stand and fight and risk their lives instead of leaving to live and fight another day, all he risked was the life of his avatar (kind of like a remote control drone).

Okay, I don't know what movie you were watching here, but they weren't in a position to "live and fight another day" in the movie I saw. The corporation was going to destroy their world's memory circuits, so to speak. That's what was at stake in the movie--the destruction of the people's living connection with the mind of their world! The natives obviously weren't prepared for that. Such a thing, to a native of Pandora would be totally unthinkable--also, the entire clan belonging to the Home Tree were demoralized by the shock of their many losses. They were lucky to have a sympathetic outsider to give them a different perspective. Again, his being able to give that perspective had NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BEING WHITE.

Quote:
Funny, I feel like a reverse Wulf arguing against the stereo-type of the dominant white male Jesus figure, that only the white man can save us, and everyone who isn't white needs saving.

And like Wulf, I fear you're fencing with shadows of your own creation. The movie was not promoting the White Savior you despise. It had some things to say about what we might call White Paternalism and disregard for "the other," but what it had to say was, as far as I can tell, entirely congruent with your values as you've stated them here.

Oh well. Hey, pizmo, I hope this helps you understand where I'm coming from.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 3:18 PM

Ah, I do see your point there and it was a weak part of the story, but the tale itself kinda required such a character to connect the two worlds for us in a fashion that would carry meaning to a broader audience - although it's been done without it, although not very effectively.

Still, given the quality of the rest of it overall, I think I can forgive that, and I generally ain't the forgiving type... especially when it comes to hollywood, but the story as-told could have been improved upon, the military and corp characters came across a little flat and one dimensional as well, which is perhaps even more of a flaw, but so little time is spent focused there that there wasn't a lot of room for characterisation.

I still think it's overall pretty awesome though.

-F

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 4:33 PM

Yanno, some things about it keep coming back to me, but most vivid is the tremendous cultural differences, in that "We have nothing they would want" was such a stumbling block there, hmm.

But I still think the whole mess was unnecessary, cause I was thinkin how that one conversation might have gone had someone like me been privy to it.
(imma spoiler tag it though)

Select to view spoiler:

I see she isn't quite getting it across to you on a level you understand, allow me.

Imagine, if you will, a supercomputer with more processing power than we have on this entire site, no larger than that pretty chunk of rock in your hand.

Even better, control systems an order of magnitude beyond anything commercially available today, with the ability to render training obsolete since the pilot is directly connected to the craft itself, what would that be worth ?

Oh but let's not stop there, if her theories about a planetary consciousness are correct, and I suspect they are, then how about THIS for you.

Imagine being able to upload everything she knows about this pretty little planet to a disk no bigger than a soda cracker, and download it even into YOUR pin head, how about that ?

Or of more immediate value, how about everything HE knows about weapons, tactics and military operations, on a chip that size, which can be downloaded into recruits straight off the street, making them immediately effective instead of investing all that time and resources training them ?

And let's save the best for last, shall we - if there *IS* a planetary consciousness, and we develop this tech, we would be able to connect with it and perhaps convince it to GIVE us the damned unobtainium, since you want it so much, or even *MANUFACTURE* it for us, and all we'd have to do is just reach out *takes the rock*, and pick it up...

And your company would be the sole patent holder and provider of that technology, what would THAT be worth ?

So hows the quarter looking now, mister company man ?

That mighta prevented the whole mess, in a way that benefitted all involved.

-F

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 5:36 PM

MAL4PREZ

ETA: I tried to avoid spoilers without tags, but do mention things that happen early on the movie. Read this post at your risk!

Hi. Just saw it today in 3D in a very nice theater. Here's my take:

First, I thoroughly enjoyed the 3 hours, went gaga over the visuals. Complete gaga. I can't even imagine the work that went into making everything move so believably, especially bits with creatures/characters winding through trees and such. And this is the first CG animated skin/facial expressions that I have been able to actually, fully believe, which is amazing considering how non-human the skin and facial features were. And the alien animals - the scary thing that chased Jake off the cliff, the way it tried to dig him out from the tree roots was amazing, how it moved. Catlike but super strong and absolutely vicious. I loved it. I could watch that scene 20 times, just to take in how it moved.

And my god - the flight control center!! Any scene there also needs to watched 20 times over, or more...

I liked the 3D. Wasn't in your face with spears hurtling at you, but gave an interesting depth. I tended to forget it was 3D, but just enjoyed watching it.

The woman lead was fabulous. So easy to relate to her reactions, yet she was always non-human. Heart on sleeve. Couldn't have been easy to pull that off, to create such an empathic alien.

Yeah, overall, good stuff.

And here's the less good: I did have to occasionally tell my brain to shut up and enjoy it. Mainly, I found all the pretty-pretty colors very pretty, but I wish they'd toned it back. It made the forest look like a velvet poster under black light in some teenager's bedroom in 1981. (I speak from personal experience.

) In those moments, I could not make myself believe I was experiencing a real world. I knew it was there to make the kiddies in the audience say: oooh, pretty!

And yes - I did tell myself to shut up and say: oooh, pretty! And I did. Made for a somewhat immature kind of enjoyment. That's okay. I could probably use more immaturity in my life.

As for the plot: yes, predictable. Heavy-handed with the peaceful natives-love-nature/native Americans analogy/Iraq war analogy/etc references. More subtley would have been nice. I mean: "Shock and awe"? Really? But this issue didn't really draw things down too much for me. Perhaps we shouldn't be subtle about these issues.

As for explaining the "processing net" as a way to save the world: I think it was made clear that business guy was too much of a single-minded wuss to make an independent decision and tell evil marine guy what to do, and in any case evil marine guy wasn't going to change course. He wanted to go after the native folk because he was pissed that they humiliated him on his first day out. He did what he did out of personal vendetta. No argument was going to stop him, not even from business guy.

As for the "white man saves the natives" issue: I did ponder that, had read it in a review. But I don't think it was the case for the reasons Frem and HK covered above. For me, the real problem with this was a loss of believability, like the overly bright colors. It became a contrived fantasy, and a common one: damaged, hopeless man rises to become a near god. A shallow way to get the audience happy, I say.

Select to view spoiler:

I mean, when Jake tames the red dragon thing and suddenly all the native are bowing to him, I didn't see a "white man/savage" issue, I saw an over-used Mary Sue plot device. The hero needs to be loved by all, including the wild untame-able woman, and the prior romantic rival. It smacked of LRH's Battlefield Earth, which I consider the prime example of that theme. And you see what that kind of thinking gets you: Scientology.

I did find the red dragon thing funny in the battle though: what a good way to set yourself up as a target. "Hey bad marine guy - if you want to come after me, look for the really really big really really bright red dragon thing!"

Please don't take offense at the criticisms, Avatar fans. I did really enjoy the movie and will see it again. Hopefully in IMAX. But I certainly didn't find it to be perfect. It didn't need to be. Had strengths a'plenty.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 6:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I think it was made clear that business guy was too much of a single-minded wuss to make an independent decision and tell evil marine guy what to do, and in any case evil marine guy wasn't going to change course. He wanted to go after the native folk because he was pissed that they humiliated him on his first day out. He did what he did out of personal vendetta. No argument was going to stop him, not even from business guy.

Yep, sadly that was pointedly obvious, which is a major problem on field deployments when you have a ranking officer like that and no one at hand able or willing to pull his leash up short.

Alas that THAT problem only existed in fantasy, but sadly enough I've known and even met a couple of those - I can only imagine how problematic that'd be when a force is that far out of contact of a superior authority...

Me, I blame those in charge of the personnel selection process, there's a reason for pysch profiling exo-contact people in the first place.

Select to view spoiler:

But then, that was the weakness Sully used against them, he KNEW that jerk was going to do something like that, and corpie would let him, so he baited them to stick their neck way out...
And stood there with an axe.

Tactically though, Sully was a bit of a dunce, I suspect you could carry a pretty sizeable chunk of rock on one of them flyers, especially his, and it wouldn't take too many of those to put those dropships on the ground in a hurry, yanno ?

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Saturday, January 2, 2010 6:15 PM

MAL4PREZ

Select to view spoiler:

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Alas that THAT problem only existed in fantasy, but sadly enough I've known and even met a couple of those - I can only imagine how problematic that'd be when a force is that far out of contact of a superior authority...

Me, I blame those in charge of the personnel selection process, there's a reason for pysch profiling exo-contact people in the first place.

Interesting. An issue that could have bearings on a possible sequel. I mean, I'm assuming the earthlings would come back pissed as hell in ~12 years, but maybe there would be cooler heads?

I actually thought the floating rocks would be part of it. Perhaps the tree would get damaged, disrupting the "flux", and the rocks would fall on the ships? I hadn't thought of the animals rising up.

I do enjoy the idea of nature joining the battle. Kind of like the Ents in LotR. I was pondering on the way home: interesting metaphor? If we fuck with nature, it will come back and kill us. Not in such a conscious, warlike, quick way. But it will kill us eventually if we don't quit being idiots with it.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, January 3, 2010 2:13 AM

BORIS

I'm definitely going to see it but have to give 3D a miss. Unfortunately that format fries my neurons and makes me excessively twitchy...damn I feel ripped off. but everyone I know who's seen it raves about feeling like they've been transported.

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Sunday, January 3, 2010 5:24 AM

JAKE7

I saw this movie yesterday and was totally blown away by the visuals.

This was my first 3D movie and I was not disappointed in the visuals. The 3D effects on the computer screens just blew me away. I could not get over how deep they looked.

The planet, Pandora, was incredible.

I thought they were a bit over the top with the "bad, greedy corporations" and "bad military" theme, but the effects were able to distract me from that.

Every time they went through that "tunnel" when connecting with their Avatars, I was alternately thinking Dr Who and Star Wars hyperspace.

In fact, since ILM did the special effects, I think it would be really cool if they were able to somehow retroactively turn all the original Star Wars films into this type of 3D experience. I'd be in geek heaven.

And yes, Serenity/Firefly in 3D? Simply awesome. Can you imagine how much freakier the Reavers would be if they were coming out of the screen at you? Or, the scene in Serenity where the Operative walked through the hologram of River and Simon? It was pretty cool in 2D, but imagine 3D...

--------------
MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
***********
"They just float out there, sending out raver breeding parties..."

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Sunday, January 3, 2010 10:59 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

It still doesn't feel like my point is getting across...

I'm a lot more critical of movies by directors that I have a great deal of respect for. Cameron, tons of respect. I think Aliens is one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever produced, he broke the mold with that film in so many ways. Since then, perhaps unfairly, I have come to expect that he might get close to repeating those heights with his following films. With Avatar he did break new ground with many very special/incredible effects, alone they are worth many viewings (I'll be buying the disk as soon as it's out). But the story and characterizations, sorry, it makes sense when you know that he had the initial ideas in the 70s, very early in his career.

@HK - I think where we might not be seeing eye to eye starts here: You said, "Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" I don't see HIS arrogance, - that's not my beef - I see Cameron's arrogance, I see Hollywood's arrogance, I see White Male America's story telling arrogance - ya know, it's all about them. So the white guy turns around and does good - it's the fact that it's HIS story and not Michelle Rodriguez' character's story, or any other non-white, non-male story that I'm talking about.
Plus, it's the arrogance that says given the chance the white man will save the day, in fact, it's up to them to save the day, everyone else is there to serve them saving the day (as in the other non-white or non-male characters). They will easily grasp the new ancient culture, they will of course attract and seduce the "girl" - the chief's daughter in fact - and rise through any special task that the "simple folk" would stumble to complete (even though it's their culture) and ride the beast no one else can, and after talking the chief into letting him stay he'll kind of brush the chief aside and start giving orders, "I can save you but only if you do as I say. First: Get the other clans together...."

And when he becomes Na'vi in the end wouldn't you guess that's as much because he's choosing his new status and his new body having working legs as anything else?

You are absolutely right about how we all take our lives to the movies, and I certainly see a parallel to America's regrettable global activities over the past years (and still). It's painfully obvious with the military and the corporation characters, but I see it in the choice for the main character too - the arrogant US white male having to turn all the wheels. It's just not always our story, there are other points of view.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, January 3, 2010 8:20 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Hey guys,

I've been reading the posts reviewing Avatar. I'm particularly interested in some of the takes folk here have on the story end of it.

Yes, it is somewhat predictable - a cross between Pocahontas and Dances with Wolves, but 'white male swoops in to save the day?' or "White male saves the savages?" I don't know about that. It was a simple plot, yes. It had the equivalent of native americans, yes. It had a white male infiltrating and then becoming aware of the natives plight, yes.

But, to me, it was more like Dances with Wolves; where a white male (from the military complex), discovers that the enemy is nothing like what he was told. In fact they had a culture and way of life that made perfect sense to them in their environment.

In Avatar, you have Sully, who is ridiculed and shunned for having a hole blown right through his life - and by his own people no less. The treatment of the wound warriors is subtly commented on here by Cameron. We, as the audience, forget, however momentary, that he's challenged physically, thanks to the avatar. We come to know this simple man as a warrior, of the Jarhead klan, who is driven and determined to make his mark.

He's given the opportunity, a carrot is also dangled, to do just that - make a difference. Much like in DwW, Sully sets out to gather info and intel on his potential enemy and gets a lesson in return. I admit this was handled much better in DwW than in Avatar, but it's there nonetheless. The more he learns about the Na'vi, the more conflicted he becomes about using the intel he's gathered to help exploit them.

He taps into a strength he didn't know he had, and, by the end of the story, it is brought to a predictable Hollywood ending. The bad guys are defeated and the natives keep their precious traditions. But, it's much more than that. Cameron, somewhat awkardly, is telling a cautionary tale about the environment and how we should be one with nature, protect the earth, etc.

Pretty much, a treehugging tale. HomeTree, Eywa, Tree of Souls. etc. The arrogance that most folk speak of is very elusively and cleverly manipulated by Cameron in this movie. Many see that Jake went to "save" the savages, but it is he who is saved quite literally by the Na'vi - both as a treehugger and a warrior. The premise was that he was protected and chosen by Eywa for something great; i.e. to make his mark.

As I stated earlier, it was somewhat simplistically told, but the truly entertaining part was the special effects, in particular, the new 3D we heard so much about. I didn't mind so much the 'black-lite' poster effect of the Pandora jungle, it added to the magical allure of the overall storyline. When I first heard it was animated, I thought "Oh no, it's gonna look like a cartoon," but far from it. It was awesome and, at times, breathtaking in scope.

I'm gonna go back in about a week to see it in IMAX.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Monday, January 4, 2010 1:17 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

@HK - I think where we might not be seeing eye to eye starts here: You said, "Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" I don't see HIS arrogance, - that's not my beef - I see Cameron's arrogance, I see Hollywood's arrogance, I see White Male America's story telling arrogance - ya know, it's all about them. So the white guy turns around and does good - it's the fact that it's HIS story and not Michelle Rodriguez' character's story, or any other non-white, non-male story that I'm talking about.
Plus, it's the arrogance that says given the chance the white man will save the day, in fact, it's up to them to save the day, everyone else is there to serve them saving the day (as in the other non-white or non-male characters). They will easily grasp the new ancient culture, they will of course attract and seduce the "girl" - the chief's daughter in fact - and rise through any special task that the "simple folk" would stumble to complete (even though it's their culture) and ride the beast no one else can, and after talking the chief into letting him stay he'll kind of brush the chief aside and start giving orders, "I can save you but only if you do as I say. First: Get the other clans together...."

I think you may just be reading way too much into this. I don't see "White Male America's story telling arrogance" at all. What I see is just a way of story telling that fits pretty much every plucky hero: yes, the story is about him; yes, he saves the day; yes, he has above-average abilities; yes, he gets the girl; yes, he succeeds where others fail, etc. I don't particularly tie that to "White Male" issues per se. Take Mal, for instance: he gets stabbed, shot at, tortured, saves the day, gets the girl (kinda), succeeds where other fail, etc. You could call that a mite irrealistic. And you'd be right. But making a film about total losers, where did that get fun? Superimposing "White Male" supremacy onto a hero, though, just because he happens to be white, I don't see it.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, January 4, 2010 3:17 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Because I read the ORIGINAL script, I'm certain that the Na'vi are NOT savages that need white men like Jake Sully to teach them about flush toilets, machine guns, and dentistry. We will have to wait for Avatar 3 to correct the notion that Na'vi are 18th Century Apache blue-skins whose most advanced technology is the bow-and-arrow.

I believe that 20th Century Fox screwed around with the Avatar script because they wanted sequels. You know Fox as the people who murdered Firefly.

The best example of a major script change for the sake of a sequel: The Na'vi threatened to send a plague to Earth if the humans ever return to Pandora. Avatar 2 will have Earth send a bigger army to take back Pandora. How is that sequel possible if the Pandorans can destroy life on Earth? It is not, therefore Fox had the words deleted to protect their investment.

Where did I see the original script, before Fox crapped all over it? Via a link that no longer works from this page www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/8/73755/86297 where it says, “Not technically a screenplay but rather a "scriptment", a combination of both screenplay and treatment. A stunningly majestic science-fiction piece that if produced (especially if by Cameron) would surely rate highly against sci-fi classics like Alien and Blade Runner.”

There are other Na'vi hi-tech miracles from the original script that are treated like unexplainable magic in the finished movie:

Select to view spoiler:

The telepathic bond between Na'vi and beast? That's not God's creation nor Evolution. It's Na'vi genetic engineering. The telepathic bond with the soul tree? Genetic engineering, again, because plants don't naturally have a nervous system. Na'vi immortality? A soon-to-be-dead personality can be uploaded to the tree of souls then downloaded into a new body. Floating mountains? Dragon Hunters (2008) www.imdb.com/title/tt0944834/ had floating mountains because they look beautiful. No explanations of how mountains float were necessary in that cartoon. The Na'vi built their floating mountains because that's beautiful. And does anybody believe that the mineral being mined on Pandora, unobtainium, is natural the way uranium ore deposits are natural?

The Na'vi technology was, originally, so beyond human understanding that it was unrecognizable as hi-tech. The crappy dialog in the finished movie makes the Na'vi into red-skins with blue skin, but the stuff that is not in words (and thus not in the screenplay that Fox Executives were reading) says high technology. At least it does to me.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, January 4, 2010 5:01 AM

TDBROWN

The story is familiar to anyone who has seen Dances With Wolves. But the right side wins this time, and it's one Hell of a ride! I have seen this in both 3-D and 2-D now. I recommend 3-D, of course, but the 2-D was so immersive that it felt like 3-D. A 'must-see" film indeed!

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Monday, January 4, 2010 6:21 PM

I was part of the over the top crowd that saw Star Wars 20+ times back in the days it was still in theaters. That movie blew away everything before it. I have not been as impressed with anything since, no insult to Serenity as it was a really great film. It just didn't set new standards in film making, it stood alone on it's fantastic story.

I've been waiting since 1977 to get blown away the way I was by Star Wars.....and Avatar finally did it. It's about time too! I saw it in both 2D and 3D and let me say the 2D was stunning enough to blow me away. The 3d was just a great way to see it again!

Cameron's the man now.

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Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

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Monday, January 4, 2010 6:22 PM

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Monday, January 4, 2010 6:22 PM

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Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 12:20 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by TDBrown:
The story is familiar to anyone who has seen Dances With Wolves. But the right side wins this time, and it's one Hell of a ride! I have seen this in both 3-D and 2-D now. I recommend 3-D, of course, but the 2-D was so immersive that it felt like 3-D. A 'must-see" film indeed!

Haven't seen Dances with Wolves. Still didn't see any white supremacy, though. :) Which is to say, I could see it if I wanted to, but I could probably warp any story that way, with or without special glasses.

--
"Hello, Navi." -- Iwakura Lain

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:04 AM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
I believe that 20th Century Fox screwed around with the Avatar script because they wanted sequels. You know Fox as the people who murdered Firefly.

You should know better than that by now. 20th (the film studio) supported Joss all the way, even allowing him to shop the show around to other networks and allowed Universal to purchase theatrical film rights. The FOX television network is the one that killed Firefly. Please stop confusing the two separate business entities.

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:14 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Okay, I was just going to let this die but a link on another FFF thread fanned the flames.

First: Yes Asarian, I agree, I am being hyper critical. I used to do that as part of my college studies, "film major." I gave that up for something else but I spent enough time in classes listening to professors talk about film that I just can't help it, it's how I am when I watch movies. I usually keep it to myself on this site but someone suggested that I must have left my heart in a stone box so I decided to rant just a lil bit.

Also, I'd like you to consider that nothing is "just happens to be" in movies or tv. There's a reason for pretty much everything in every frame, and the reasoning process can make your head swim, and might even seriously disappoint you with it's coldness.

Lastly: Turns out I'm not just living in my own bubble, or at least there are some others that share my idea of "The Great Whitey."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey

"Anything you can do, he can do better. He can do anything better than you. Oh yes he can, especially if you happen to be of Asian, Pacific Islander, Indian, African, Aboriginal or Native American descent. It doesn't matter that you have spent your entire life living in the densest African jungle, being taught how to survive there since you were old enough to stand up — the moment Mighty Whitey arrives in your town (most likely as a prisoner of war, an orphan or a lost traveler), you might as well hang up your blowpipe and take up crochet because his European (and therefore superior) genetics have pretty much made you redundant."

And:

http://io9.com/5422666/when-will-white-people-stop-making-movies-like-
avatar

"Whether Avatar is racist is a matter for debate. Regardless of where you come down on that question, it's undeniable that the film - like alien apartheid flick District 9, released earlier this year - is emphatically a fantasy about race. Specifically, it's a fantasy about race told from the point of view of white people. Avatar and scifi films like it give us the opportunity to answer the question: What do white people fantasize about when they fantasize about racial identity?"

"This is a classic scenario you've seen in non-scifi epics from Dances With Wolves to The Last Samurai, where a white guy manages to get himself accepted into a closed society of people of color and eventually becomes its most awesome member."

I'm not sure I agree with the second authors conclusion though:

"These are movies about white guilt. Our main white characters realize that they are complicit in a system which is destroying aliens, AKA people of color - their cultures, their habitats, and their populations. The whites realize this when they begin to assimilate into the "alien" cultures and see things from a new perspective. To purge their overwhelming sense of guilt, they switch sides, become "race traitors," and fight against their old comrades. But then they go beyond assimilation and become leaders of the people they once oppressed. This is the essence of the white guilt fantasy, laid bare. It's not just a wish to be absolved of the crimes whites have committed against people of color; it's not just a wish to join the side of moral justice in battle. It's a wish to lead people of color from the inside rather than from the (oppressive, white) outside."

I find these conversations interesting, but they don't make or break a film - Avatar is no exception. It's a ton of fun.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 7:53 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by two:
I believe that 20th Century Fox screwed around with the Avatar script because they wanted sequels. You know Fox as the people who murdered Firefly.

You should know better than that by now. 20th (the film studio) supported Joss all the way, even allowing him to shop the show around to other networks and allowed Universal to purchase theatrical film rights. The FOX television network is the one that killed Firefly. Please stop confusing the two separate business entities.

I know that but I was ranting. Still am, too! If I had been reasonable then I couldn't make any solid connection between Avatar and Firefly. So, if I wanted to blame one person for both Avatar being rewritten, because of the sequels, with the Na'vi as blue Cherokee Indians and Firefly being canceled, I should have blamed Rupert Murdoch, not any part of Fox.

“While most American audiences have switched off at films that tackle issues of the Iraq War head on, Cameron has subversively gotten away with this simply by doing the old Star Trek (1966-9) standby of recasting the issue with alien faces and setting it on another planet. In so doing, he has produced a far more ardently outspoken anti-war work than all of the Fahrenheit 9/11 (2004)’s and their imitators put together. It’s quite a subversive touch for a film that is going to be one of the top box-office hits of 2009. Not to mention for someone like Cameron to have snuck out the front door of 20th Century Fox past Rupert Murdoch and the same studio that produces the Fox News Channel.” www.moria.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4561&Itemid=
0

P.S. -- Wish I had made a copy of the original script in 2005. I don't remember reading that Jake Sully asked Mother Nature to save her blue-skin tree-worshipers. In the finished movie, Jake says at the Tree of Souls, “Probably just talking to a tree right now. But if you're there I need to give you a heads-up.” That makes the Na'vi look dopey; the white guy does all the thinking for the blue people. “Our Great Mother doesn't take sides, Jake.” Defeatist attitude. In the script I read, Na'vi weren't passive victims without the white-man's leadership.

'Avatar': Why do conservatives hate the most popular movie in years?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2010/01/avatar-why-do-
conservatives-hate-the-most-popular-movie-in-years.html

"The White Messiah fable is the oft-repeated story about a manly young adventurer who goes into the wilderness in search of thrills and profit. But, once there, he meets the native people and finds that they are noble and spiritual and pure. And so he emerges as their Messiah, leading them on a righteous crusade against his own rotten civilization... Once a director selects the White Messiah fable, he or she doesn’t have to waste time explaining the plot because everybody knows roughly what’s going to happen... Cameron has simply used these familiar bromides as shorthand to give his special-effects spectacular some resonance." www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/opinion/08brooks.html

“...the Na'vi are an almost offensively reductive cartoon of the noble savage...”
http://www.avclub.com/articles/going-navi-why-avatars-politics-are-mor
e-revolutio,36604/

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 7:54 AM

ZEEK

I think I forgot to mention a couple things that were jarring IMO.

Select to view spoiler:

unobtainium? Come on is that not the cheesiest name they could have come up with? That should have taken about 5 seconds to notice how everyone immediately rolls their eyes when they hear it. It shouldn't even have made it to a market research phase much less into the movie.

Jake getting lost was plain silly. You're telling me these super expensive genetically engineered avatars don't have GPS tracking? What kind of future is this? I would think they'd be far beyond our GPS technology by then. Heck couldn't they get their computers to show them what the avatar is seeing at the very least? That could have helped them narrow down the search.

All his getting lost really did was give the story a way for him to be introduced to the navi. They could have just as easily walked over to a navi camp and had those little spirit things jump all over him and the story is right back to where it needs to be.

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:13 AM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium#Science_fiction

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knightreyeder:

I was part of the over the top crowd that saw Star Wars 20+ times back in the days it was still in theaters. That movie blew away everything before it...

...I've been waiting since 1977 to get blown away the way I was by Star Wars.....and Avatar finally did it. It's about time too! I saw it in both 2D and 3D and let me say the 2D was stunning enough to blow me away. The 3d was just a great way to see it again!

Cameron's the man now.

Cameron would find that to be high praise indeed , and quite gratifying...

James Cameron emerged from his first viewing of Star Wars as an angry young man .

An angry , frustrated 22-year-old truck driver , model builder , and sketcher of science fiction concepts...

Star Wars was the sort of movie that Cameron was inclined to make , were he a moviemaker...

Star Wars turned out to change the course of his life . And , as the saying goes , the rest is history...

Avatar is the film James Cameron had in mind to make...and he's spent his life getting to this point .

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/11/ff_avatar_cameron/

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/11/ff_avatar_movie/

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:52 AM

Well, it's a simplified, truncated form of the movie he's been waiting so long to make. His original script-ment was rather deeper in theme, plot and character.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 12:15 PM

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni1372717/

'...News regarding the adaptation of Fred Van Lente and Andrew Foley's "Cowboys and Aliens" has put fans of the sci-fi western source material on something of a seesaw...

According to The Daily Beast, however, there's a few details fans can count on: Favreau is on board to direct and the Dreamworks film begins shooting this July.

Of course, there's still a bit of room for speculation, with Tdb wondering if the more than $1 billion to-date box office success of James Cameron's "Avatar" might entice filmmakers to render "Cowboys and Aliens" in 3-D.'

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2010/01/05/cowboys-and-aliens-to-begin-shoot
ing-this-july-possibly-in-3-d/

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 1:49 PM

Alas, I must spoiler the entire bit here.

Select to view spoiler:

FYI, Two - I regarded that the Na'vi were at some point high tech to be all but a given as their environment and even themselves seemed rather clearly engineered, nature can do that, but it's messier, and as "clean", for lack of a better word, as their system was pointed straight at it.

That's why I thought reverse-engineering their biotech would be so valuable even to a boneheaded corpie, cause it was something we might have the potential to replicate even if we had to clone it.

As for Eiwa, many folk believe Earth has something of that kind of consciousness itself, but much less potent and aware, almost a distant subconscious form of it, but that's a topic for it's own thread, I think.

-F

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:24 PM

My first viewing caught the unobtainium silliness and it's bugged me since as well. As thorough as this film is, that name alone leaves an off tone resonance that lasts....the only blatant 'nit pick' thing I can't let go of.

He is however, forgiven since the rest is food for the imagination, a feast for the eyes and raw fun, plain and simple.

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:01 AM

If you think the name "unobtanium" is silly.... you should maybe do some research.

Short version, the element in the movie is used for room-temprature superconductors. Scientists and Engineers spent years trying to develop just such a material.

Guess what they called it.....?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:36 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
If you think the name "unobtanium" is silly.... you should maybe do some research.

Short version, the element in the movie is used for room-temprature superconductors. Scientists and Engineers spent years trying to develop just such a material.

Guess what they called it.....?

I'm betting they called it something incredibly silly.

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:42 AM

Well, the sillyness of the name is debatable. Nonetheless, it's been a word in the scientific community for a couple decades, is likely what such a substance would be called upon discovery, and was not something Cameron just made-up.

So, if folks want to be anal and say it was stupid to call something by it's name... well, like I said, they should perhaps do a little research before sounding like a fool.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 11:46 AM

CYBERSNARK

I also had my suspicions about where the Na'vi came from, since their anatomy doesn't match anything else on Pandora.

Every other complex life-form on the moon was shown to have six limbs. The Na'vi only had four.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 11:55 AM

Interesting observation.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 5:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I'm a lot more critical of movies by directors that I have a great deal of respect for. Cameron, tons of respect. I think Aliens is one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever produced, he broke the mold with that film in so many ways. Since then, perhaps unfairly, I have come to expect that he might get close to repeating those heights with his following films. With Avatar he did break new ground with many very special/incredible effects, alone they are worth many viewings (I'll be buying the disk as soon as it's out). But the story and characterizations, sorry, it makes sense when you know that he had the initial ideas in the 70s, very early in his career.

@HK - I think where we might not be seeing eye to eye starts here: You said, "Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" I don't see HIS arrogance, - that's not my beef - I see Cameron's arrogance, I see Hollywood's arrogance, I see White Male America's story telling arrogance - ya know, it's all about them. So the white guy turns around and does good - it's the fact that it's HIS story and not Michelle Rodriguez' character's story, or any other non-white, non-male story that I'm talking about.

Hey pizmo,

Sorry if this is catching up with you too late and you've moved on. I totally understand if that's the case, but even though I've been busy with other things this week I keep thinking back to this conversation.

Mixing art and politics is always tricky, a balancing act, I think. All too often we shoot the messenger--blame the art for the culture, the artist for bringing up complex, unpleasant and unanswered questions as if he created them; blame Taxi Driver for Hinkley, Marilyn Manson for Columbine. It's particularly on these hot-button, largely intractable problems like racism, or our culture's fascination with violence, or the marginalization of anything resembling the female, or the massive "karmic debt" (if you will) of the white race--these issues over which we feel the most powerless, that we blame the artist as somehow an instigator. Surely there is such a thing as corrupt art, but I try to er on the side of the artist, try to ask only that they "hold the mirror up to nature," give me a clear picture to look at and find what meaning I can.

In the first much more combative draft of my last post, I'd asked if casting Denzel Washington in the lead would make any difference to you. At the time I thought the question was merely incendiary, but the more I read, I kinda get the feeling that casting him would make a difference, y'know? It seems like that could have really solved your problem entirely. But if Mr. Washington were cast in the lead, wouldn't the movie be pushed over the brink into some sorta "White People are Just Bad" scenario?

I think there are serious problems with western culture, serious problems with western political thinking. A lot of us folks, caught in the western system are trying to opt out. I think opting out of the system, even opposing it when we can, is a worthy story, an heroic story. I guess you'd prefer something on the order of Little Big Man or Dances with Wolves, where White Guy becomes just another schmo in the tribe. Seems Jake Sully's specific heroism is the problem. White men shouldn't be heroes in a multi-cultural story. But in my experience, white guys need to take a constructive part in the multi-cultural story more than anyone. And if he's heroic about it, well, good for him!

I find it pretty ironic, actually, that you express such respect for Cameron on the one hand, and attack his gender politics on the other. Cameron has made his career largely on two blisteringly bad-ass, grown up female lead characters in a genre (sci-fi) otherwise obsessed with male adolescent fantasy only. Heroic actions by a White Guy on behalf of an Oppressed People?

So he makes Aliens in which Lt. Ripley does all the heavy lifting, then two Terminator movies in which Sarah Connor saves the world; and he makes The Abyss which is one of the most powerful statements on partnership and the profound interdependence of a man and a woman in any genre; but none of that matters now that he's finally made a movie about an heroic white male? Now he's just a mouthpiece for the oppressor? I mean, he IS a white male, shouldn't he be allowed to make one movie focusing on his personal dreams? (I know, I'm leaving out True Lies, but he'd just gotten divorced when he put that together and that thing sucked radically.)

Quote:
It's just not always our story, there are other points of view.

I, of course, agree, it's not always, but on the other hand, sometimes, it's gotta be okay if it is, right?

I understand if you're tired of seeing heroic white guy movies, but I strongly disagree with your argument that the fault lies with the film or the film maker. I think sometimes we do leave our hearts out of the proceedings because our political convictions prevent us from enjoying the work.

(Just a note about heroism and riding unrideable dragon-bird-thingies: I see Jake's success there having much more to do with his being "between worlds" than with some characteristic specific to white men. After all, the white male leaders in this story, the exemplars of white male know-how--the corporate creep, the mercenary leader--would never have dreamed of what Jake did there.

To me it's kinda fascinating that the Na'vi only bonded with certain, seemingly more benign species in their world, leaving the red dragon and the panther thing and even the hammerhead rhino things alone. Of course, as shamanistic people, the Na'vi aren't thinking in such practical, objectifying terms. They understand the bond to be mutual and these more fearsome species had not previously made themselves available to the bond. It's important, I think, that Jake was able to bond with the red dragon only after his li'l talk with Eywa. Jake succeeded with the red dragon because it was time. Neytiri bonded with panther-beasty as well. That didn't have quite the mytho-historic resonance with the Na'vi, but it was every bit as extraordinary as Jake's bonding. Jake didn't defeat the White Mercenary by himself, after all, it was a thoroughly collaborative effort, and ultimately, Neytiri had to save his life (again).

So it's interesting to me that when their world is "safe" the Na'vi feel distant from the more dangerous species on the planet. But when the planet is in grave distress, when the Na'vi are in the gravest distress, then they feel the connection they share with the darker forces of their world, and bond with that power.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 5:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'm betting they called it something incredibly silly.

They called it "unobtainium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium

Quote:
Engineers have long (since at least the 1950s[2]) used the term unobtainium when referring to unusual or costly materials, or when theoretically considering a material perfect for their needs in all respects save that it doesn't exist. By the 1990s the term was in wide use, even in formal engineering papers such as "Towards unobtainium [new composite materials for space applications]".[3] The word unobtainium may well have been coined within the aerospace industry to refer to materials capable of withstanding the extreme temperatures expected in reentry. Aerospace engineers are frequently tempted to design aircraft which require parts with strength or resilience beyond that of currently available materials.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 10:17 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

I found this link on another board...
http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/avatar-now-2-all-time-grossing-movie
-and-in-just-20-days/
...and I really like this person's comment:

Quote:
I worked on ‘Terminator 2′ and ‘Titanic’ and have to say this about James – he expects too much – and that, ladies and gentlemen is exactly why he is now the envy of everyone. When the ink dries, be it black or red, it only matters that the art and effort was beyond outrageous. I’m very, very happy for the outrageousness of James Cameron.

Comment by Kilroywassomewhere — January 7, 2010 @ 2:36 am

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Friday, January 8, 2010 4:58 PM

Great quotes , C-L !

Avatar is still kicking butt and taking names , by way of this report :

http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=b_o_weekend&dept=Film

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Friday, January 8, 2010 5:15 PM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I don't think it will break Titanic's domestic totals, but it shouldn't have trouble getting the top spot for global sales.

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Sunday, January 10, 2010 6:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I don't think it will break Titanic's domestic totals, but it shouldn't have trouble getting the top spot for global sales.

Wouldn't bet against it at this point...

Haven't verified this yet , but I heard it reported yesterday that the film had already busted the billion-dollar mark globally...

Considering that it's been released for less than a month , that's remarkable , and it shows signs of having good 'legs'...

Yours is a good point , though...

This isn't exactly a chick-flick where everybody dies...

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Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:18 AM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

As of last weekend the world wide total was around $1.15 billion, and it just cracked the $400 million mark domestically this weekend.

According to the following link, Titanic's world wide gross was $1.8354 billion, and Avatar is already at #2 on that list.

http://www.worldwideboxoffice.com/

Avatar has close to $600 million more to go to top Titanic globally, and around $200 million for domestic. It still needs about $130 million to pass The Dark Knight on the domestic charts.

Of course we have to take inflation and higher prices for 3D showings into account. I would like to see some figures on actual number of tickets sold. If anyone can find such statistics please let me know. I would be willing to bet the top spot on that list would be either Gone With The Wind or Snow White due to the numerous times they've be re-released.

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:12 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Behold the power of 3D - and more praise if you're a capitalist for Cameron's Vision:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=2636&p=l.htm

Jan 11, 2010

Over the weekend, Avatar generated $50.3 million, breaking the record for biggest fourth weekend gross previously held by Titanic's $28.7 million. It was down just 27 percent, giving it the best hold among nationwide releases. Its IMAX venues alone were down 14 percent, accounting for an estimated $7.5 million of the weekend.

Avatar raged past the $400 million mark in a mere 23 days, the second-fastest to the mark behind only The Dark Knight. Its $430.8 million tally by day 24 made it the top-grossing movie from 2009, beating Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, as well as the seventh-highest grossing picture of all time, surpassing Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. On Monday, Avatar will top Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace and E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial, to claim fifth place.

In terms of attendance, though, Avatar would likely barely make the Top 100, which is still sensational. That's due in part to the ticket price premium of the picture's 3D presentations. 3D has made up $335.4 million or 78 percent of the total."

Brilliant if you are looking for ways to bump the gross, "how do we make more from each consumer?" Theaters that were previously hedging on 3D have to be lining up to get the projectors installed. Yes, there are definitely more costs involved but since Cameron helped create the cameras he'll gain on that end too.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:25 AM

SHISHAKLI

There's only one thing that bothers me about real-d (3d) cinema... and that is the loss of focus due to apperature (sp?)

It's normal for standard cinematography to have one plane of depth in focus with the foreground and background out of focus... but I feel this becomes redundant with 3d.

When viewing 3d, and something in the foreground is out of focus, you can look at it, but you can't MAKE it focus. To me that destroys the illusion of 3d.

Occasionally a scene will have nearly all of the elements in focus, and they were the best. You could let your eyes wonder into the foreground and background and really enjoy the scenery in all it's 3d detail.

Now I know that having a fully rendered 3d scene is easy to have entirely in focus. But many people might not be aware that the technology exists for standard live video to be also in focus, from 1 inch to infinity. The technology was developed and patented by an Australian cameraman and used on the gardening show "Burkes Backyard". Unfortunately no-one was willing to pay the man the money he deserved for the technology to hit the mainstream.

I'm now wondering what he's doing with that patent... because with the re-invention of 3d cinema, that simple "trick" might become a high demand standard in the near future.

I'll shut up now ;)

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 6:19 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

I'd love to hear more about that discovery!

I know of 3 things that effect depth of field:

1. aperture
2. focal length of lens
3. sensor size (film or digital)

These seem like pretty immutable physical laws to me, all the more reason I'd like to hear what this guy came up with - multiple cameras shooting simultaneously at different focus points?

I agree with you about the differences between our live 3d and a film's version of it. I think for most people it won't make that much difference. It feels like 3D has reached a tipping point (Espn is going to have a 3D channel - great for out door sports) and whether it is better than 2D HD doesn't really seem to matter; it's new, it's very cool, and it's getting a lot of buzz.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:33 AM