Just an average show by ladyhawk33

Ouch. Well, you're definitely entitled to an opinion, but I have to wonder why, if you thought the show was average, that you bothered to make an account on a fansite for the show? It's like ringing a doorbell, introducing yourself, then taking a dump on the living room floor. I'd kind of like to know what reaction you were expecting here.

So, specifically. The problem with what you're comparing with is first of all, three of those shows come from HBO. HBO tends to cultivate a very different mood than a network show, and you can get away with a hell of a lot more. Granted, that's not as true now, with shows like LOST, but when Firefly was made, it WAS true. I'm not sure it's really fair to compare them.

You also have to realize that Fox asked Joss Whedon to significantly lighten Firefly up, which I suspect contributed a great deal to it's popularity. One of Joss Whedon's other shows, Dollhouse, is a lot more serious and many of his fans thought it was hard to get into and kind of boring. So this humour appeals to a subset of people. Guess you're not one of them, and that's fine.

A problem I'll admit Firefly faces is that ultimately it's a show about a spaceship. There are quite a number of those. Perhaps the humour was an attempt to stand out.

Some of us around here think this show is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and even though I'm willing to admit it might have it's flaws and limitations, I'm one of them. And that's not coming from any preexisting Joss Whedon fannishness, I hadn't even heard of him until about a year ago. The reason I'm here is I saw Firefly, and I fell in love with the dialogue. For about a year now, I haven't been able to become interested in anything else. It just kind of took over me. And that's coming from someone who hates watching television or going to movies because I feel like it's a waste of time.

As for safety, it only got half of a season. And if you know Joss Whedon at all, actually you know that at any given time, any one of his characters could die. A lot of people thought he really WOULD kill Kaylee in the pilot, simply because Joss has it in for cute, innocent things.

And that's to say NOTHING of the Tim Reaper, who was one of Joss' cowriters.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:00 PM

Well, while I certainly don't agree with this opinion, I do think it's a reasonably even handed look at the limitations of the show, and why it just doesn't appeal to some people.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:07 PM

I think you're right, Storymark. I know I've had trouble interesting some people because they thought it was too cornball and mood whip-lash at times.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:12 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
But the sometimes clownish comic relief ruins it's credibility as a drama.

It's an adventure. Like Indiana Jones. It sounds to me like adventure maybe isn't your thing - fine, but be conscious when you're watching one that you're not going to get gritty, Wire-style 'realism'. Rather expect style, wit, heroism, romance, action-filled plot etc.

Firefly is a brilliantly scripted + acted, intelligent, sensitive, funny, sci-fi, adventure.

If not all of the above floats your boat expect some of its brilliance to be lost on you.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:14 PM

ANOTHERSKY

I think you do have a legitimate point about the humor.
Sometimes I found myself extremely irritated at the flippancy. Certain lines I would actually have cut because I felt it interrupted the mood also.

But the War Stories torture scene was actually the one place I didn't.

Sometimes life gets really, really weird. Absurd, actually.

I saw that as a poking fun at every other torture scene I've seen in any other tv show or movie. You have to go "wait a minute..." to get to the emotional content under the fun and games frequently--if you do it with this scene realize that Mal is doing this to keep Wash from cracking. Hassling him about the one thing that gets him more scared and angry than great physical pain, even if it causes lines like "oh, so it's the guy-she-never-slept-with thing!".

I'm one who's very for extreme realism, but the way I see it, firefly the show was about "conceptual" realism---ie, a hypothetical world twisted by the heaviest dose of ironic content and viewpoints I've ever seen. It's like the "Theatre of the Absurd" existentialism concept made entertaining instead of just depressing.

Realism: All the emotional bits except "OMG I'm scared anyone could die at any moment" are there. I think they just had a different mission statement: The last shot of the opening is a spaceship thundering over a herd of wild horses.

Well, the "safety is left on"---until we hit Serenity. Oops, two, in 15 minutes of film. Remember, firefly is the first 14 eps of the first season. Given "Jossing" is killing off beloved mains, I would have expected to have seen some interesting things come the never-realized second season.
__

Going for a ride.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:17 PM

Proof!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Jossed

Quote:
Note: In some circles, the term "Jossed" refers to a gutwrenching main character death, which Joss Whedon is also famous for. This definition entered the populace when during a Q&A session at an Australian university, a young Aussie girl noted his tendency to do horrible things to on screen couples, and to much laughter, said "We call it getting 'Jossed.'"

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:06 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Yeah, heavy realism in a show set aboard a space freighter just isn't very... realistic, ya know what I mean?

And if you don't get the idea of flippant humor at very tense (or even life-or-death) moments, then you'll never make it on my bank-robbing team.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:02 PM

LADYHAWK3

Thanks for the insights into the show. You all have done a good job chipping to helping me appreciate the show without deriding me terribly.

You're right, the dialogue is quite enjoyable at times and I'm one to appreciate good dialogue; I find myself experiencing many laugh-out-loud moments while watching this show. The characters are good, production value high. I give Whedon props for leaving aliens out of the storyline; and avoiding mixing muppet-looking characters to the show.

But I guess when you hear other people talk about a show and use terms like "perfect" or "best show ever" (not anyone on this thread mind you) you expect something more. I realize that's just some of that hyperbole you see so often days. I guess my main problem with the show was I wanted to fit it into a genre, which wasn't really the show's fault. I never really got the point of mixing sci fi with western (I'm sure that's a topic covered many times). If Joss Whedon had tweaked it to make it a purely western, it would probably be the best western series this side of Deadwood. As a Sci Fi series I have problems with it, though. For one, it doesn't force you to think about the big issues that Sci Fi normally does. I like my Sci Fi a bit more on the "What if" side. But if you just use the term "adventure" like KPO suggested, it's actually quite a nice little show. In any case I would watch this show over something like Hercules any day of the week.

@Kwicko-- realism is the way in which you tell the story, the story itself doesn't have to be realistic. Battlestar Galactica did a great job fusing realism into it's science fiction. But don't mistake me for a BSG fanatic. I liked BSG, but it wasn't without it's problems too. I thought it was a bit too overly-dramatic at times, everyone just seems wound up way too tight. I know, accuse BSG of being too dramatic and Firefly of being too whimsical. There's just no pleasing me :p

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:33 PM

TEETHGRINDER

I tried to stay out of this but something just bothers me about people signing up for a fansite and then calling the subject of the fansite "average". I feel the same way for people who go and sign up at an M14 website and then go on and on about how the AR15 is a much better choice. I respect the fact that you're trying to be objective with your criticism. I just dont get the "why". I guess Wash said it best...
Some people juggle geese.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

There's nothing 'average' about Firefly.

Of all the shows out there, of all the sci fi fan groups one can associate with, there's only one which I've even bothered with checking out.

Firefly

Well, there was also Wonderfalls. But that's not important. What IS important that, even with its flaws and imperfections, Firefly was something different. Something better than, above other shows.

Pity to those who don't 'get' it.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:40 AM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."

I'm with you AURaptor, and the others who asked , if you didn't like it or found it lacking.....WHY come here?

Nothing personel, but we got lots of Trolls already.
JMHO

Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion

Do not bother dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by ladyhawk33:
Just got through watching the Firefly series. Here's my impression.

Macgyver < A-team < Xena < Firefly < Northern Exposure

(all the above) < BSG < The Lost Room < Rome < Band of Brothers < The Wire

The show's witty, sarcastic, even zany humor is probably it's biggest appeal for most of its fans, but also a big limitation. I appreciate the light-hearted approach to sci fi. But the sometimes clownish comic relief ruins it's credibility as a drama. It makes it seem less real, less believable, and therefore less relevant. For example in episode 10, when Captain Mal and Wash are bickering to each other about Wash's wife while they're both tied up and being tortured...funny, yes, but damn ridiculous. Don't get me started on the Jaynestown episode. I constantly find myself cringing when I see something blaringly cliche (and there is a lot of cliche moments), when I'm not cringing from hearing someone cursing in Chinese, which ends up being 3-4 times an episode.

When realism isn't respected, it makes it hard to feel real dread in the moments of the show that we're suppose to. You never feel that any member of the crew is in any real danger when they are on a smuggling mission. You know at the end of each episode everyone who matters will return safely and everything go back to the way it was. Compare that to a show like The Wire where you feel like anyone could die in a given episode. Therefore the tension is heightened and you are grabbing onto your seat tighter. I don't think I ever grabbed my seat with Firefly. The difference is Firefly is using an old formula for storytelling similar to shows like Xena and Hercules where the safety's left on.

Though it's not really fair to compare a show like Firefly to the recent serialized show like Lost, BSG, The Wire, Rome....because Firefly isn't really a serialized show. All of it's episode wraps itself up neatly at the end and doesn't tie into the next. Most episodes can be watched without viewing the previous. Serialized shows all have a strong overarching mystery or story that keeps you coming back and at the end of each episode there is a small cliffhanger. While Firefly does have an interesting overarching story about Simon and his sister...it not prominent enough to put it in the same category as the previously mentioned series. In the end, when judged on it's own, Firefly is a decent series to watch, and I'm glad I did.

It really just comes down what kind of drama you prefer; I for one, welcome the new wave of realism being injecting into tv series these days. I think that's the reason you hear a lot of talk about how good TV has gotten recently.

Your dim-witted assessment of the show is pathetically laughable. And are you kidding about "Rome?" All that show ever had was brutal butchery and tasteless illicit screwing.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:48 AM

Hey! I loved The Wire. And I liked Rome as well!

Although I've never been able to figure out why all Romans MUST speak with a heavy British accent. Shouldn't it be the other way 'round? ;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:55 AM

BORIS

Lady Hawke, I love Firefly because of its interesting and unique way of presenting drama.It's not the same old same old formula and frankly I see that as refreshing not limiting. It is far more believable and relevant than most other TV shows foisted on us. Perhaps you may want to consider that for many of us the intelligently crafted combination of what you refer to as zany humour and dramatic elements in Firefly, appeals to us because it resonates with the way our own lives have unfolded. we can easily place ourselves in that environment. My life for instance is like a long running comic strip, accented with intense drama and almost unbelievable(except they are real)occurences riddled with zany humorous injections that keep me from going insane (maintaining an amusing commentary of your enemies' shortcomings while they pound you is an excellent coping mechanism).Other elements that appeal on the show are the genuine comraderie that emanates from the characters. My own friendships reflect a lot of similarities to those of the crew. Interestingly Band of Brothers is also one of my all time favourite shows for the very same reason, the connections between the characters... and my immense crushes on Damian Lewis and Donnie Whalberg)

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:59 AM

GWEK

I take exception to the idea that XENA is better than THE A-TEAM.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:50 AM

Well, and in the series, you don't get into the big "what if" questions except maybe in regards to human experimentation and River...

Which is possibly not quite so "what if" and more reality, depending on your take on 1960s CIA and NSA programs. Ever heard of a book called The Men Who Stare at Goats?

It's more in the movie that you get into the bigger thematic sci-fi what ifs, when it takes on the concept of government authoritarianism.

The movie has a somewhat different tone and feel than the series, though some of the joking is still there. There are some people who like it, and some people who have trouble with it. Being that I don't really know what your tastes are, all I can say about the movie maybe is "approach with caution."

Still, thanks for the elaboration. You seem on the up and up. Welcome. :)

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:39 AM

DMI

Expired, forgotten, spoiled rotten.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
I take exception to the idea that XENA is better than THE A-TEAM.

Here, here!

I pray for one last landing,
on the globe that gave me birth.
Let me rest my eyes on the fleecy skies
and the cool, green hills of Earth.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 6:23 AM

LESSISMORE

Oddly, I really do not recall any comments on "How good TV has gotten lately." Not only would I celebrate another "Firefly" over another CSI, Law and Order, etc. et all. I think the success of many shows is dependent on reflecting how most of live our lives. I live my "little dramas" with an innate sense of humor that some just find inane. Perspective, life experience, and all the other filters we see life and ourselves through will always shape our preferences. My experience shapes mine closer to the Firefly crew than some dramas that are more gritty or real. Of course, that aint to say that my is not real or often gritty, but, the absurdity of it all shines through alot. Yes, I get a lot of blank stares when I point out the bs and absurdity all around us on a daily basis (at the same time acknowledging that it is the way it should be)! Truth be told, I force my would to be more like theirs than allow some in the world to force me into one more like the one you describe (and say you prefer). A tense drama is fine as a part of life, but, mine seems to be more of a spectrum of moments and experiance that I try to find the lighter side of when I can. The way the series was written strongly resonates with me. That you find it less so is certainly valid to you. In my world, if you stand too close to the edge you can expect to: fall in, get dirty, have the universe make you look silly, or become food for something greater (bigger) than you. The alternative of not going to the edge is, however, even more unthinkable. Sometimes reality is a pie in the face or a pratfall more than a policy or a procedure. Just an average show, I think not. Often life is ridiculous and even that humor can be thought provoking. Did Jayne reach an epiphany at the end of that episode as to why the illusion of our heroes is more important to us than the reality, no he needs more cumulative experience to get it, if he ever does. Aitnt right, aint wrong, just is!

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yeah, heavy realism in a show set aboard a space freighter just isn't very... realistic, ya know what I mean?

I disagree. It's perfectly reasonable to have an outlandish setting, and still treat it realistically - within the context of the given setting.

I've always found the "it's scifi/fantasy/etc.... so they don't have to worry about realism" a very lazy argument, one which most successful writers in those genres would disagree with as well.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ladyhawk3:

But I guess when you hear other people talk about a show and use terms like "perfect" or "best show ever" (not anyone on this thread mind you) you expect something more.

I think it's a show that is perfect for a certain mindset/taste, which is why so many of us love it soooo much. But if you are not of that mindset, I could see it being a bit grating and cheesy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:58 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:
Yeah, heavy realism in a show set aboard a space freighter just isn't very... realistic, ya know what I mean?

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:02 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by ladyhawk33:

Quote:
When realism isn't respected, it makes it hard to feel real dread in the moments of the show that we're suppose to.

Never let reality get in the way of a good story.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by boris:
It's not the same old same old formula and frankly I see that as refreshing not limiting.

Yeah, it kinda is. It's a bit of a newish spin on established formulas - but damned near every character and episode plot is based on some standard trope of the western genre.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:45 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I was skeptical of Firefly for the first 3 episodes... a show I knew nothing about and that was taken off the air so quickly really needed to win me over. Whedon? Who's he? By the 4th episode it felt like I had no choice, I was completely hooked. I just kept thinking about it - only a couple shows have ever come close (The Wire, The Shield, Homicide, Life on the Street - all so diff). And I did see some of the same things you mentioned, but it just didn't matter. I've given up trying to explain it!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:07 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Storymark makes an excellent point:
--------------------------------------------------
I think it's a show that is perfect for a certain mindset/taste, which is why so many of us love it soooo much. But if you are not of that mindset, I could see it being a bit grating and cheesy.
--------------------------------------------------

Plus, I find the comparison to other shows rather unfair.............to the other shows. It is very much like falling in love, you know it when it happens, and there's no sense in fighting it.

What I find particularly interesting in the show was the character's growth and development. It was like peeling an onion - layers, my friends, layers. It is unique to find so many fully realized characters in one show. 9 people look out into the black and see 9 different POV. As far as sci-fi goes, Firefly was an odd creature, a hybrid if you will, a western set far into the future but with themes built upon humankind's mistakes in the past.

The dialogue and the bantering was what made the show "fun" and set it apart from the CSIs and BSGs. The greatest show on earth? Maybe not, but to us Browncoats it comes pretty damn close.

There's so much more that I want to say but,alas, I must prep for work tonight. I leave u with this: Doth hath compared apples to oranges, though our little story be but a peach.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:17 PM

By the way, I'd rank your list thusly:

Macgyver < A-team < Xena < Northern Exposure < BSG < The Lost Room < Rome < Firefly < Band of Brothers < The Wire

... but that's just me.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:33 PM

BIGRICHARD

Gotta add my thoughts to the already long list, but I have to agree that Firefly is for those with a certain taste. I personally didn't like BSG. I watched the first 5 or so episodes and found it rather boring. I have many friends who love it, and I can't understand that, but good for them.

In response to your point about the humour, I'd say it's realistic and makes it MORE interesting as a drama. The light-hearted scenes which surround, prelude and intersect with the drama are what made me care more about the characters, and like them more, which made the drama all the more...dramatic. Humour occurs all the time in real life, even in dramatic situations, it's how people cope with things, and this shows in Firefly, so I would argue that it was very realistic a lot of the time.

And yeah, you clearly didn't quite 'get' the torture scene. Mal wasn't bickering with Wash to keep the audience laughing, he was bickering with Wash to keep Wash concious, alive, and sane.

As others have said, that feeling of dread would've come had it had more time. I hadn't seen Buffy when I watched Firefly so I didn't know of Joss' love for killing, but I still got a sense of it, coming toward the end of the 14 episodes. Then of course you have the movie...and..well..yeah.

Btw, I love Lost. The show rocks. But some/most shows need a few more episodic episodes to be able to gain the audience to continue a serialzed format, which we would've seen eventually.

Honestly, I've gone on long enough already, and I don't want to criticize you, you're welcome to your opinion (and I like ANYONE who loves Band of Brothers!) but I just feel that you didn't quite 'get' the show. Wasn't your 'cup of tea' as my mum says. :)

But hey, come back when The Pacific (Band of Brothers sequel...ish) is over, and we can discuss that at length!

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 3:39 PM

BORIS

I agree Rome was just mindless entertainment with soft porn thrown in but it was entertaining on a primal level.
I don't mind people posting who don't get Firefly. It's healthy to get an alternative opinion, and it encourages the rest of us to re-establish what we love about our show. It also reveals that there's an untouchable something that links us...links are good, save us from drowning.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 3:43 PM

BORIS

I'm hanging out for "the Pacific". I have rewatched Band of Brothers many times with max satisfaction. I hope Pacific will be as rivetting.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 3:48 PM

CHRISISALL

"Safety on?"
Have you SEEN Serenity?

Regardless, welcome aboard!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:01 PM

JACKWABBIT

Coming out of Lurkerville to say this:

Best. Damn. Show. Ever.

---

No, really. It hurts me to lessen my love for Stargate a bit by having a show surpass it, but it's true. I recently watched Farscape for the first time. I enjoyed it, but it was no Firefly. Then again, as I said to a friend in regards to this, nothing but Firefly is Firefly. She agreed, and we went on to conclude that once you watch Firefly you are forever and irreversibly changed. You are never the same again. Ever. And nothing else comes close to the level of love that is Firefly.

By the way, I'm no blind Whedon fan. I've never seen Buffy or Angel and thought Dollhouse was mediocre at best. But Firefly? Just. Pure. Love.

P.S.-troll!

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:03 PM

GARDS

I've only just joined the site but, is this trolling a regular thing? Albeit a more sophisticated troll.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:13 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Gards:
I've only just joined the site but, is this trolling a regular thing? Albeit a more sophisticated troll.

Trolling on these sites is like getting a cold; it happens from time to time, just drink fluids & ride it out.

AND, welcome!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:24 PM

YELLOWJACKET

Setting aside my own opinions about the show I have only one question for LADYHAWK33. Did you watch the series alone? I ask, because it does make a difference. If you did watch it alone, you should try watching it again with a room full of friends and let us know if it changes the overall feel of the show for you. I have noticed that it makes a difference for me. I really enjoy watching the show with a room full of people.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:36 PM