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Them and Us



They said no one watched it.
We were there.


They said it took too much work.
We saw intelligent writing.


They said it was too expensive.
We know the value of quality.


They said it couldn't grow beyond its core fanbase.
Yet we've grown


They said it wouldn't return.
We won.

We spent over a year saving it. During that year, we laughed, cried, cheered, and ranted, but we did it together. We remained a community as the crew told us to do. Network suits, media skeptics and viewers of other fandoms said we couldn't do it. They said it was a lost cause, that it couldn't be saved. They told us repeatedly that we were wasting our time.


However, we endured; we never gave up. Giving unthinkable amounts time, money, sweat, tears, and what felt like blood to some of us, we fought the good fight. No doubt, we appeared foolish on the outside -- Don Quixote tilting windmills. Yet within, we knew the truth of our struggle -- John Quixote braving the perils of an irrational world to save a princess. And at the end of the day, we won. Our prize: four more precious hours and the gratification of knowing we earned it. To some, it may appear that our fight is over. We won, and don't battles end when you win? Why continue toiling after the victory?

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Originally posted by Haken:
Before Firefly came along, Farscape was my favorite show.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
- Dargo hanging out in space for over half an hour? What about heat from the sun? What about the extreme cold? What about the vacuum of space? (this happened more than once which blows my mind)

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
- The characters seem bi-polar at times. At one point in season 1, the characters were so desperate to get home, they were willing to cut of the arm of pilot to give it the mad scientist alien dude (intelligent plot, huh?). Then, later on in the season, the characters profess much care and peace towards each other and other races. They also switch between hating each other and loving each other quite often. They will argue of stupid stuff and threated each other, and then spend months searching for and rescuing each other. Just doesn't seem like consistent characters overall.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
- How about that Freaky Friday body-switching episode. Intelligent writing my butt.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
I could go on and on. Despite the horrible plots and cheesy setups, the show has a lot of merits and I look forward to watching the rest of it. I merely suggest that Firefly and Farscape should never be compared to each other. One focuses on fun and adventure, setting realism and science aside, while the other embraces grit and reality, folding it into a fun and adventurous show.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I like Farscape. I don't even try to compare it to Firefly, but it sure was entertaining. I was unaware of the 4 more precious hours they got,what's that about?

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Originally posted by DeSangro:
Sci-Fi fans sure do have a lot of guts and gumption, considering that the media has stereotyped us as "nerds" and "geeks".

Hail to the fans, baby.

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Originally posted by CapnRahn
Myself - I watched 70+ episodes of "Babylon 5" - could NOT get into it and I am still trying to understand the draw. But that is my point -- these shows touch different things in different people. Just because I do not understand does not mean the show has NO merit. It just has not touched on any thing that I feel is required for my enjoyment of a story.

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Originally posted by JimGoings
I am halfway through season 2 of Farscape. It's a fun show, but it just doesn't compare to FireFly. My wife and I find ourselves laughing at the crazy events that occur.

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Originally posted by Channain:
And now, every time I see the premise for a new sci-fi show, I find myself thinking "How long will it take for that to be submarined by the Powers That Be?" That seem right to you?

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In short: fans campaigned; the people behind the show campaigned, too; momentum was built up; money and the will to produce it was found; it went through pre, actual and post production; and finally, the Sci-Fi Channel decided to show it and to try and tell everyone it was their idea to bring it back in the first place.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
All well and good. But can you elaborate...what it are you referring ? I didn't catch the last season of Farscape, so I'm a bit in the dark as to where it left off. Will the 4 hours be in the form of final episodes...like what Joss was allowed to do w/ Angel ?

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Originally posted by CapnRahn:
Cheese?! I'm I hearing that 'you' (the universal, not a specific 'you') do not see any cheeeese in Firefly?

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Originally posted by CapnRahn:
Myself - I watched 70+ episodes of "Babylon 5" - could NOT get into it and I am still trying to understand the draw. But that is my point -- these shows touch different things in different people. Just because I do not understand does not mean the show has NO merit. It just has not touched on any thing that I feel is required for my enjoyment of a story.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
The comment about "intelligent writing" strikes me as odd. I would not consider that a trait of Farscape. It's a good show and is fun to watch, but intelligent writing? Seriously people, some of the cheesiest science fiction moments have appeared in this show.

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Originally posted by Channain:

Space station life, made to look casual.

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Interesting and engaging characters. Pick one, whether you liked them or not. SOMETHING happened to each and every one of them, whether you liked it or not. Biggest mistake was what happened to Marcus at the end of fourth season. Huge.

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No sudden shock of cancellation.JMS said he was only doing 5 seasons, and that's what he did. It took some finageling, a deluge of letter-writing and a SOS or two, but when it came down to it, we knew when it was going to end. We never once had the rug pulled out from under us, we just had to change to a different channel. There was comfort in that.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
You're right in saying that cheese is subjective. I don't mind crazy events, but sometimes something happens that shatters even the illusion that the show is setting up... something that just defies the shows own logic.

For example, Farscape actually tries to make use of conceptual science (biological ships, good use of atmospheric and vacuum effects, etc) but then will choose to ignore them later on. Just like Star Trek, it seems every planet's atmosphere is breathable and most aliens are bipedal.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
I am halfway through season 2 of Farscape. It's a fun show, but it just doesn't compare to FireFly. My wife and I find ourselves laughing at the crazy events that occur.

The comment about "intelligent writing" strikes me as odd. I would not consider that a trait of Farscape. It's a good show and is fun to watch, but intelligent writing? Seriously people, some of the cheesiest science fiction moments have appeared in this show.

- Dargo hanging out in space for over half an hour? What about heat from the sun? What about the extreme cold? What about the vacuum of space? (this happened more than once which blows my mind)

- The characters seem bi-polar at times. At one point in season 1, the characters were so desperate to get home, they were willing to cut of the arm of pilot to give it the mad scientist alien dude (intelligent plot, huh?). Then, later on in the season, the characters profess much care and peace towards each other and other races. They also switch between hating each other and loving each other quite often. They will argue of stupid stuff and threated each other, and then spend months searching for and rescuing each other. Just doesn't seem like consistent characters overall.

- How about that Freaky Friday body-switching episode. Intelligent writing my butt.

I could go on and on. Despite the horrible plots and cheesy setups, the show has a lot of merits and I look forward to watching the rest of it. I merely suggest that Firefly and Farscape should never be compared to each other. One focuses on fun and adventure, setting realism and science aside, while the other embraces grit and reality, folding it into a fun and adventurous show.

Jim
Web: http://www.3rdedition.org
Blog: http://www.goingsfamily.com/jim

Join: http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/index.html?fuseaction=too
ls.invlink&u=jimgoings&linkID=36

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Originally posted by Outsider:
I think the point is that after running for 4 seasons, it was inevitable that some plot inconsistencies would creep into Farscape, whereas it's far less likely that Firefly would suffer the same thing after less than 20 episodes.

All of the greats of movies and TV have inconsisitencies if you examine them too closely - the problem is defining what exactly constitutes a "plot inconsistency". As someone else said above, it's different strokes for different folks. One man's "major plot hole" on their inconsistency scale might not even register on someone else's.

And as a little sidenote, I have to just stick up for Babylon 5 for the moment. It remains, in my mind, the single most unique SF series of all time. No other show matches the scale of what Joe Straczynski accomplished with that show - and with a lot less money than either Farscape or Firefly had to work with. It was JMS who made the 'story arc' popular again with people other than soap fans. It was that show which effectively pioneered the use of CGI on a weekly television series. More than anything, though, it's one of the most compelling SF series ever.

Is it cheesy sometimes? Absolutley. But let's face it here - even Buffy and Angel could be cheesy occasionally (the snow starting to fall in "Amends", anyone?).

But if you can't get into B5, don't worry about it - neither could I to start with. I gave up on it several times, until I started catching late night repeats of Season Five. I got so hooked on that I went out and bought the VHS boxsets. Watching the show right the way through from start to finish, you really appreciate the impressive scale of the storytelling. It really is quite breathtaking at times.

And besides - how can anyone NOT be moved by some of G'Kar's speeches on Babylon 5?

"You're not entitled to your opinion... you're entitled to your INFORMED opinion."

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Oh, ohhhhhhhhhhh...I just have to jump in again. The irate fanboy in me just can't give it up.

With regard to the 'Buffy' episode "Amends," the point of the snow falling was to show that Angel had been brought back by higher powers with a purpose. The snow falling was to keep him from committing suicide with the sunrise after a hallucinatory ordeal with a nasty baddie. 'Buffy' fans will agree that this is one of the high points of the series. Again with the "if you don't get it..." thing.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
OK, we're almost done with season 2 now. I will absolutely admit that this show *does* have intelligent writing. It just seems that for some episodes, the writers smoked a bowl before typing it down.{/QUOTE]

ohhh, you aren't even close yet. Wait till you see Scratch and Sniff - they smoked all the bowls, lit up a kiln and made some more bowls before smoking those....

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Also, what does the fact that FS lasted 80+ episodes while FF only lasted a dozen have to do with anything? I feel confident in saying that FF getting cancelled had nothing to do with the quality of the show. :D

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Outsider covered it - meant that the more shows, the more inconsistencies creep in, not a comment on the (very high) quality of both shows.


"I threw up on your bed"

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Originally posted by Outsider:
And besides - how can anyone NOT be moved by some of G'Kar's speeches on Babylon 5?

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"You're not entitled to your opinion... you're entitled to your INFORMED opinion."

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Originally posted by BlueSunWorshipper:
In comparing the budgets, I remember that 'Farscape's budget is roughly the same as that of B5's. The reason they have decent effects is that the whole thing is shot in Australia where everything is cheaper. They also are working with a small effects house that, until Farscape, had only done commercials to that point. I remember that B5's production house had about 40 old Amiga 4000's daisy-chained together in order to produce the effects, something that a modern PC could do on it's own with far less effort.

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Originally posted by jimgoings:
So is Buffy worth watching?

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Originally posted by KMInfinity:

One thing about Farscape. More than any other show, it really requires (imo) that you watch it from the beginning.

No, not really, although it certainly helps. I didn't get hooked until the end of season 3, watching Fractures to be exact. I couldn't work out was was going on but whatever it was, it was pretty intense. So I kept watching and trying to work it out. After the season finished I really had to know how it all started and ordered the very first DVD's. Amazing to see the differences in the characters, especially in Crichton. At the start he really is a wide-eyed innocent trying to feel his way in a strange environment, trying to talk his way out of everything and only resorting to violence as a last resort. That changes a bit.

I envy you. I would like to see it all again for the first time!

... and on a completely different subject, can anybody tell me how to work these emoticons? This is my first post and I am stilling trying to get the hang of it. I am slightly embarassed that it should be in a thread devoted to Farscape but I promise to make amends ...

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Originally posted by Marya:

Amazing to see the differences in the characters, especially in Crichton. At the start he really is a wide-eyed innocent trying to feel his way in a strange environment, trying to talk his way out of everything and only resorting to violence as a last resort. That changes a bit.

I envy you. I would like to see it all again for the first time!

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Originally posted by Marya:
... and on a completely different subject, can anybody tell me how to work these emoticons? This is my first post and I am stilling trying to get the hang of it. I am slightly embarassed that it should be in a thread devoted to Farscape but I promise to make amends ...

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I love both FarScape and Firefly but not for the somilarities, but because of the difference.
In FarScape you get to see the changes that occur in John from that wide eyed innocent to what he is by the end of Season 4... where as with Mal, the changes have already happened. I mean, John has more in common with Simon then he does Mal really.

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Originally posted by Marya:


Thanks for the emoticon tip. How stupid can you (or rather: me) get? My only excuse is that I had a bad, bad day. Did I say bad? Believe me, it was bad. Going to have another like that tomorrow by the looks of it.

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Here's to hoping your day goes better then you think.

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Originally posted by Marya:
Serenity would be better of course but hey, if wishes were horses ....

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