Not so shiny: Plenty of drama for Buffy creator Joss Whedon by HAKEN

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Not so shiny: Plenty of drama for Buffy creator Joss Whedon

POSTED BY: HAKEN
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 07:48
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VIEWED: 6702
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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:24 PM

Likes to mess with stuffs.

Great article over at Australia's Sidney Morning Herald about Joss Whedon's struggles and the cancellation of 'Firefly' being the greatest grief of his career.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/not-so-shiny-plenty-o
f-drama-for-buffy-creator-joss-whedon-20100825-13r81.html

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Friday, August 27, 2010 5:32 PM

FREELANCERTEX

Thanks for the link, Haken. Good read.

Ugh, Cabin in the Woods as 3D? Why is everyone so effing caught up in 3D nowadays? And why do people keep messing with Joss's stuff?

Edit: I like his closing quote :P and I wish him luck with the Avengers. ^_^

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:18 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

"You've got to go in with an enormous amount of confidence because everyone is going to question everything you do. You have to be the person who believes when nobody else does.”

Words to live by.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:23 PM

FREELANCERTEX

Seconded.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 7:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

So many cancelled shows, man...what a loser.

j/k

I'm glad the story was less dramatic than what I was thinking, when I first saw the headline.

As something of a Johnny-come-lately to the Joss 'verse of excellence, I'm still of the opinion that he's very much under appreciated by the general t.v. viewing public.

Certainly the suits at FOX love knocking him down, and yet they keep calling him back, too.

Does that seem right to you ? Well, it doesn't to me, but I guess the nature of the business simply doesn't allow for writers/ actors / directors to take anyone off their list of potential employers.

daggummit.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 8:31 PM

BORIS

Us Aussies love Joss Whedon stuff! every time i go to the video store i check to see what's happening with "Serenity" and it's always out. The proprieters have had to replace it a few times too. Also Every time it shows on TV friends who weren't previously interested beg me to lend them Firefly and then mope around for a while wondering why it was cancelled and why we didn't get it her until 2 or three years after it was cancelled. Coz our population is smaller, we have less channels to choose from, and we generally only watch crap when little else is available, I feel if Firefly had been shown in I Australia or even the UK and other parts of the world at the same time as the US it would probably still be going. You should have heard the Aussie backlash when angel was cancelled!

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Friday, August 27, 2010 8:37 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Interesting that he thought he was done. Then along comes a mainstream project like the Avengers, which should put him in good standing with TPTB, if it kicks arse at the Box Office.

It's all about money.

If he gets his critically acclaimed masterpiece (dare I say it.....I dare, I dare) he may get a shot at Serenity 2.

Thats how it works.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 2:44 AM

CAMPHILLPAWHEDONITE1956

nice piece, thanks

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Sunday, August 29, 2010 1:32 PM

CHRISK

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Then along comes a mainstream project like the Avengers, which should put him in good standing with TPTB, if it kicks arse at the Box Office.

It's all about money.

If he gets his critically acclaimed masterpiece (dare I say it.....I dare, I dare) he may get a shot at Serenity 2.

Thats how it works.

Actually, I think that's not quite how it works. Critics, acclaim, and even masterpieces have very little to do withit.

If the movie kicks enough arse at the Box office, (which would have to be more than people are expecting just based on the buzz around it before Joss signed on, and the precedent set by Iron Man and Iron Man 2,) then he might have a flying shot at a return to Serenity. Nothing else matters but the shiny gold coin.

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Monday, August 30, 2010 4:26 AM

ZEEK

I almost worry that Avengers won't do as well as the Iron Man movies. It seems like it will be more over the top fiction. Iron Man could almost fit in our world. Thor not so much. A combination of all these heroes is sure to be farther out on the fiction side of things. That may not appeal to as broad an audience as we might hope for.

Can you imagine the black mark it will make if Avengers doesn't live up to expectations?

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Monday, August 30, 2010 7:22 AM

STORYMARK

So, would you base that on stuff like Avatar (or Alice in Wonderland, the second high grosser of the past year) being so grounded in reality, or because general audiences didn't turn out for them...?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, August 30, 2010 8:17 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
So, would you base that on stuff like Avatar (or Alice in Wonderland, the second high grosser of the past year) being so grounded in reality, or because general audiences didn't turn out for them...?

One's a scifi and one's a classic. How do they even compare?

I'd say X-men are a far better example of a big superhero fantasy team up movie. They did fairly well for themselves but not record breaking amazement. They also tried to keep things grounded somewhat and not go into space with the phoenix saga. It's a tight rope act.

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Monday, August 30, 2010 9:06 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
So, would you base that on stuff like Avatar (or Alice in Wonderland, the second high grosser of the past year) being so grounded in reality, or because general audiences didn't turn out for them...?

One's a scifi and one's a classic. How do they even compare?

They don't really - which helps my point even more. Two wildly different films, which make no effort at being grounded in reality, yet are massively successful and popular with general audiences.

Have a look at the list of highest grossing films ever. Very few make any attempt at reflecting reality. Some even mix space and magic.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, August 30, 2010 9:11 AM

BYTEMITE

Boris: You Australians, you guys are my kind of people. We need to have drinks or something. :D

Virtual cheers for now.

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Monday, August 30, 2010 9:12 AM

CYBERSNARK

I think Avengers will inevitably have a big opening week (because of RDJ and Joss' respective fans if nothing else --and who knows, Thor and Cap may end up just as big). It's the second week (when the marketing stops and word-of-mouth/repeat viewers take over) that's the important one, and I have every confidence in Joss's ability to bring people in.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, August 30, 2010 10:32 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
They don't really - which helps my point even more. Two wildly different films, which make no effort at being grounded in reality, yet are massively successful and popular with general audiences.

Have a look at the list of highest grossing films ever. Very few make any attempt at reflecting reality. Some even mix space and magic.

I meant how do they compare to a fantasy superhero movie not how do they compare to each other. They also have singular protagonists. The only top 10 grossing movie that even compares is Lord of the Rings and I would be people are much more familiar with dwarves, elves and magic than they are with the Norse gods. Not to mention that the Lord of the Rings is already a classic that is taught in schools.

Instead Joss has 4 main protagonists along with a rather large supporting cast in a world that is not well known to the public in general unless they've seen all the lead in movies. I don't think it's an easy sell is all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
I have every confidence in Joss's ability to bring people in.

Is this a recently obtained ability?

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Monday, August 30, 2010 11:05 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
They don't really - which helps my point even more. Two wildly different films, which make no effort at being grounded in reality, yet are massively successful and popular with general audiences.

Have a look at the list of highest grossing films ever. Very few make any attempt at reflecting reality. Some even mix space and magic.

I meant how do they compare to a fantasy superhero movie not how do they compare to each other.

I know, and my point stands - they relate to each other as well as they relate to a superhero movie. My whole point was success is not contingent on being grounded in reality.

I'm not saying it'll be that big, or even a sure hit by any means. But to dismiss it as doomed for not being grounded in reality, seems a bit ludicrous at this stage.

Quote:
They also have singular protagonists. The only top 10 grossing movie that even compares is Lord of the Rings and I would be people are much more familiar with dwarves, elves and magic than they are with the Norse gods. Not to mention that the Lord of the Rings is already a classic that is taught in schools.

And by the time Avengers comes around, there will already have been a Thor movie which was already set-up a dozen times over in the very well-seen Iron Man 2 (not to mention Thor's been a presence in kids cartoons for the last several years - they've been planning for this), and that's in addition to the character being a part of the comics landscape since the mid-60's.

Sure, LOTR is still taught in schools - but it's hardly universally used. Many kids will have never read it. And those that do usually won't get to it till High School.

I'd wager an elementary school age kid knows more about Thor and Captain America right now (before their respective movies are even released) than a comparable kid would have known about Aragorn and Frodo a year before the first Rings movie came out.

And the Avengers won't be riding on familiarity with Norse Gods. The Thor movie will spoon feed the movie version of that anyway. And since Avengers is an ensemble, it's not Thor's movie, so the mythology is largely irrelevant by then. All people need to be familiar with is Superheroes - a concept they've been grokking for a while now.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, August 30, 2010 12:39 PM

ZEEK

Another problem is I'm not convinced Captain America or Thor will do the same type of business that Iron Man did. Hulk did maybe half as well as Iron Man and IMO it's cause he's just not a cool hero. He's big and strong. Whoopdy doo almost all superheroes are strong.

So we have Captain America who is strong, agile and has a big shield. Meh. It's going to be set in the WWII which has older tech and is kinda lame by today's standards. Not so sure that one's going to be a huge draw.

Thor has the whole Norse god thing going on. That doesn't really do anything for me. He's not a character that I can relate to. He's no Peter Parker.

I'll probably see them both just as a lead in to Avengers but if they weren't I'd just wait for them to hit cable.

So, if Cap and Thor don't do so well then what does that do to Avengers?

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Monday, August 30, 2010 1:22 PM

BORIS

hey Bytemite any time you're down this way let me know and we'll definitely do drinks :-)

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Monday, August 30, 2010 1:34 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
The only top 10 grossing movie that even compares is Lord of the Rings and I would be people are much more familiar with dwarves, elves and magic than they are with the Norse gods.

Shhh-shhh shhh! You'll make Loki laugh, and... oh dammit. Freki and Geri are giving the sad puppy now look. Why have you abandoned them? SAD PUPPY NOW!

Quote:
Instead Joss has 4 main protagonists along with a rather large supporting cast in a world that is not well known to the public in general unless they've seen all the lead in movies. I don't think it's an easy sell is all.

Eh, Ironman 2 seemed to have a good box office take, which probably means they retains some people from the first one, and all of them will probably go see the spiritual successor. Too bad about Norton and the Hulk, though.

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Monday, August 30, 2010 2:10 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Another problem is I'm not convinced Captain America or Thor will do the same type of business that Iron Man did. Hulk did maybe half as well as Iron Man and IMO it's cause he's just not a cool hero. He's big and strong. Whoopdy doo almost all superheroes are strong.

So we have Captain America who is strong, agile and has a big shield. Meh. It's going to be set in the WWII which has older tech and is kinda lame by today's standards. Not so sure that one's going to be a huge draw.

Thor has the whole Norse god thing going on. That doesn't really do anything for me. He's not a character that I can relate to. He's no Peter Parker.

I'll probably see them both just as a lead in to Avengers but if they weren't I'd just wait for them to hit cable.

So, if Cap and Thor don't do so well then what does that do to Avengers?

I doubt that either Thor or Cap will do as well as Iron Man, but they don't have to, not every movie is going to be a break away hit. Hell Iron Man 2 cost much more and 1 and made a fraction more, so ended up being less profitable.

If you think the only appeal of the Hulk is being strong, you simply don't get the character. Not that he's super-popular, but it is one that appeals deeply to a lot of people, and both Hulk movies have done decent business.

Cap is a character I don't have much affinity for, though I think the WWII setting is the coolest thing about it, and the main reason I want to see it. You think WWII is a lame timeframe. Oh-kay, but that's you. It's still a popular era in history - in TV, film, videogames, print - and this will provide a take on it that hasn't been done in film much - or at all for 20 years or so. But Captain America does really connect, like the Hulk, for a certain set of the audience. And, he's also more than just a strong dude with a sheild.

You seem to equate character with power. If you want to be that simplistic, Iron Man is just a Batman knockoff with a shinier suit.

Likewise, Thor will appeal more to fans of swords & sorcery/fantasy stuff, and if Hemsworth goes over, will draw a lot of women (hell, the women I know swooned over him for just his 5 minutes in Star Trek, after he does Thor....).

Which I think works to the benefit of the Avengers - each character, though they do not appeal to everyone, does really appeal to a different sort of person. If they can get everyone from those disparate audiences to come along to root for their guy - they'll do just fine at the box office.

Also remember, before the first movie, Iron Man was less popular/well-known than the other Avengers.

And yeah, it could totally crash and burn. If Cap and Thor bomb, it'll have a bigger uphill battle. It could well end up retitled Iron Man 3: The Avengers.

But it's way too early to tell There's a lot of potential there, and it's really something that's never been done before in film. When you try something new, sometimes is sucks, and sometimes you get a classic.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, August 30, 2010 4:25 PM

CYBERSNARK

I don't get the Thor hate.

I mean, I haven't read a Marvel comic since I was a pre-teen (I'm a DC guy), and I'm chomping at the bit to see this movie. Have you seen the trailer? This looks to be the most visually spectacular Marvel movie ever made. Asgard makes Coruscant look like downtown Chicago.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:48 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
I don't get the Thor hate.

I mean, I haven't read a Marvel comic since I was a pre-teen (I'm a DC guy), and I'm chomping at the bit to see this movie. Have you seen the trailer? This looks to be the most visually spectacular Marvel movie ever made. Asgard makes Coruscant look like downtown Chicago.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

I wasn't too impressed with the trailer myself, especially the Asgard stuff, which I felt looked a bit plasticy and fake. But that was pre-FX, so the look could well change quite a bit before release.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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