Comic-Con 2011 Joss: New Buffy and Serenity comics, Dr. Horrible, Avengers by Bytemite

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Comic-Con 2011 Joss: New Buffy and Serenity comics, Dr. Horrible, Avengers

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 20:01
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Sunday, September 11, 2011 2:56 PM

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/comic-con-2011-j
oss-whedon-talks-buffy-firefly-dr-horrible-and-oh-yeah-avengers

This was probably posted elsewhere on the board but I thought I'd relink it as newsworthy because of some important snippits.

For us Browncoats in particular:

Quote:
When a fan asked if he'd be telling the backstory of more "Firefly" characters in comics, Whedon said that "We now have license to not only tell backstory but move forward with these characters, too. It would be interesting to know what happens next."

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 4:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Uh Oh, I'm paranoid and can't trust. But this is good news for most folk.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:30 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

That sounds promising... Although, I have to say that comics are not my preferred medium. I wonder if they would ever consider writing novels. Novels would make me happy.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:15 AM

GWEK

Interesting story. I think it's telling that Joss sort of dodges talking directly about upcoming comics. I suspect that while he has the rights, there is nothing currently planned. (He's probably too hip-deep in Avengers stuff to think about it!)

I just hope that when they DO decide to do some more comics, they hand it to the right people. It's great that Joss wants to help his kid brother stay unemployed, but Shepherd's Yale was pretty much on par with Greedo shooting first.

Sorry to continue the generally negative feel of this message (Sorry, guys!), but I think the real news may be that Joss definitively stated there will be no sequel. I mean, on some level, we all KNEW it, but this is the first time Joss himself, the keeper of the faith, has stated it. That's not nothin'.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:28 AM

BYTEMITE

Eh, I dunno about that. What he said was:

Quote:
"I'm also still waiting for someone to tell me it's time to make that Serenity sequel." Cue massive applause, followed by Whedon saying, "But they won't. Sorry, that much love, I had to destroy it."

I'd actually put that as more of the classic Whedon humour than an actual statement that it's NEVER going to happen.

He's basically said that and like it plenty of times before, pointed out that the movie paid for itself but didn't make enough money to be an enticing sequel hook. I don't see that anything has changed, neither situationally or what news there is or Joss' way of putting that news. It still doesn't mean never, otherwise he wouldn't also be saying that on some level he is still waiting for a go ahead.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:33 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
I just hope that when they DO decide to do some more comics, they hand it to the right people. It's great that Joss wants to help his kid brother stay unemployed, but Shepherd's Yale was pretty much on par with Greedo shooting first.

You didn't like Shepherd's Tale? I think it was pretty good as far as comics go. I'm sure it would be better in a film format, but that pretty much answered all my Book related questions. Except maybe how "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not? So, where does that put you?" What does that have to do with his past?

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:38 AM

BYTEMITE

Also, I thought Shepherd's Tale was all right. I thought the backwards storytelling was actually a neat narrative trick, suggesting Book's life flashing before his eyes.

Book's voice was written fairly well, he sounded like him, and Jayne and River sounded like themselves. Those appear to be Zack's strongest, as Zoe and Mal felt a little OOC to me.

But he improved in some of the subsequent work, such as Downtime and some little drabble exercises he posted on Dark Horse's blog.

My biggest complaint is maybe there's one panel in the chicken soup scene that really didn't need the extra visualization, and should have just had Book sitting in contemplation at the table.

Everything else, like wishing Book had been an Operative in accordance with the fan theories, is now irrelevant. The quality of a story shouldn't be discounted just because people wanted it to be about unicorns instead of bunnies.

And the question of whether Book's video camera mechanical eye might come up again and how will probably stay with the fandom. I can definitely see that coming back to bite or help the crew.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:51 AM

BYTEMITE

Zeek, I think that was meant to explore Book's inherent dual natures. In Objects in Space Book is having a conversation with Jayne about being a shepherd, River sees a flash of the time when Book was more of a wolf (most likely, when he was an Alliance interrogator). That's all there in Book: shepherd and wolf, Independent and Alliance, brutal determined survivor and maybe someone who could still be horrified by the brutality of the world.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:23 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
I just hope that when they DO decide to do some more comics, they hand it to the right people. It's great that Joss wants to help his kid brother stay unemployed, but Shepherd's Yale was pretty much on par with Greedo shooting first.

You didn't like Shepherd's Tale? I think it was pretty good as far as comics go. I'm sure it would be better in a film format, but that pretty much answered all my Book related questions. Except maybe how "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not? So, where does that put you?" What does that have to do with his past?

No, I'm sorry to say I didn't like Shepherd's Tale, and it has nothing to do with (as BM may imply) content of the story or expectations. In fact, if anything "saved" it, it was that there were a few nice twists.

No, I didn't like it simply because it was poorly written. The storytelling is muddled. Many of the facts are difficult to discern except on multiple reads (I know this because I've had to explain what happened to more than a few of my friends and also more than once on this forum). There is virtually no legitimate conflict. Character development is mininal. As an answer to a question, perhaps it suffices, but as a STORY, it's trash.

If there's any expectation that wasn't met, it's that, after all the time that had passed, I think Book's tale deserved much better writing. This was an important tale within the Firefly canon -- quite possibly the single biggest specific unswered question -- and it should have been written by a much better writer. The audience deserved for this to be written by Joss himself, or at least one of the regular writers from the Joss/Firefly stable, not a guy who had only a handful of writing credits overall and virtually no experience as a comic book storyteller.

I must admit that part of my resentment comes from the beauty of Book's response "No, I don't," when Mal says he'll have to tell his story someday in SERENITY. For me, that was one of the best-acted moments in the movie, and it laid to rest questions about Book's past in an elegant, if evasive, way.

To tell Book's story in a way negates that moment of the movie, and I feel like the moment in the movie was so strong that the telling should have been just as strong to merit it's existence.

In my opinion, the overall canon is worse off for the telling we got.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 7:01 AM

BYTEMITE

You don't have to have a central conflict to have a story. Granted, it's one of the most common forms of storytelling, but there's others as well: slice of life, character sketch, so on. This was a character sketch.

So I suppose you don't like Float Out either because there was no antagonist?

Muddled is possible, but I disagree there's no character development. It raises questions to us, a hallmark of good character development, means that it's revealed just enough to leave facets of motivation and characterization a mystery.

Did Book ever really believe in anything (it seems that he believes in Christianity now, but how do we know for sure)? Who's side was he on in the war? Was he just out for himself? Did he care about the people around him, even the people he was torturing or who abused him, or was he just always thrown into the fire pan and scrambling to save himself? Was what happened to the Alexander a betrayal, or was it planned?

Quote:
not a guy who had only a handful of writing credits overall and virtually no experience as a comic book storyteller.

Experience and professional experience are inconsequential to writing. It sounds like you more just wanted to have Joss or a familiar, and Zack wasn't either.

Quote:
To tell Book's story in a way negates that moment of the movie, and I feel like the moment in the movie was so strong that the telling should have been just as strong to merit it's existence.

How does it? Mal never learned from Book, the information is given to US, and we viewers always knew we'd get that story eventually. It is separate from this. The point of the scene is not for Joss to retrospectively tell us "and you never will find out because of what happens next," though I can see how you might have that reaction and it might increase the emotional impact you feel, but that was not what was intended. It's just a moment between Book and Mal, establishes that Book sees something of himself in Mal, but either is too ashamed to tell Mal his story or doesn't want to put that burden on him. It's also a bit of foreshadowing.

Will you be angry when they make a comic concerning Inara's backstory, another mystery?

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 7:24 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
You don't have to have a central conflict to have a story. Granted, it's one of the most common forms of storytelling, but there's others as well: slice of life, character sketch, so on. This was a character sketch.

Without conflict, a story is essentially pointless.

You're right that it's posslbe to write a character sketch or a slice of life with a conflict, but thore are not stories in a conventional or traditional sense, and these things can't carry a story of 30, 40, 50 pages. (I forget how long ST is).

Quote:
Muddled is possible, but I disagree there's no character development. It raises questions to us, a hallmark of good character development, means that it's revealed just enough to leave facets of motivation and characterization a mystery.

I respectfully disagree that it really raised questions so much as it recapped what we already know. We are given additional information, but it does very little to actually inform the character of Book. The questions you asked are, for the most part, questions we could have asked, in a broader sense, without the story.

Quote:
Experience and professional experience are inconsequential to writing.

I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong. I'm a professional editor and writer who consumes mass media (comics, books, movies, TV shows).

While there are many people who have talent right out of the gate (otherwise, their careers wouldn't get started) experience categorically improves writing quality, especially when dealing with a challenging this.

As for professional experience: There's a hage different between how to write a short story vs a comic vs a TV episode vs a movie vs... whatever. Certainly, there is overlap in basic skills, but there's a reason many writers of one form have trouble making a successful transition to another.

Quote:
It sounds like you more just wanted to have Joss or a familiar, and Zack wasn't either.

Please stop trying to guess my intentions, especially when I think I've made them pretty clear.

I would have preferred a writer who understood how to write a long-form comic, who had the skill and finesse to pull off an difficult story (ie, one largely lacking conventional form and conflict), and someone familiar with the "voice" of the characters.

I'm sorry, but Zack Whedon was not experienced enough to pull it off. (Now, having said that, I did enjoy his 8-page DOWNTIME... perhaps 8 pages is his limit).

Quote:
How does it? Mal never learned from Book, the information is given to US, and we viewers always knew we'd get that story eventually.

Perhaps it was lost on you, but I think it's pretty clear that the scene was more than Book talking to Mal.

Quote:
Will you be angry when they make a comic concerning Inara's backstory, another mystery?

If it's poorly written? Sure.

Feel free to respond to this post if you'd like, but I'm finished with this thread right now. We're going to have to agree to disagree and I have better things to do with my time than engage in a debate that will lead nowhere except continued frustration on both sides.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 7:30 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

I just hope that when they DO decide to do some more comics, they hand it to the right people. It's great that Joss wants to help his kid brother stay unemployed, but Shepherd's Yale was pretty much on par with Greedo shooting first.

Couldn't possibly disagree more.

Followed it just fine on the first read, thought there was plenty of conflict, both internal and external. I thought it was excellent.

But then, Im not judging it based on a line from the movie, but on it's own merits.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 8:36 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
You're right that it's posslbe to write a character sketch or a slice of life with a conflict, but thore are not stories in a conventional or traditional sense, and these things can't carry a story of 30, 40, 50 pages. (I forget how long ST is).

Two words: speculative fiction. Now, maybe your style is to always include a conflict, but even though that is a common arrangement, a story does not have to have one to be a story. Or even to be an ENTERTAINING story.

As for conflicts in Shepherd's Tale, Storymark makes an excellent point about INTERNAL conflicts.

Quote:
The questions you asked are, for the most part, questions we could have asked, in a broader sense, without the story.

None of us could have guessed he was a proto-Independent. And while we all knew he was Alliance or at least had stolen an Alliance ID (both as it turned out), none of us would have guessed he was a mole. This is coming from someone who could guess the big secret in Fight Club simply by being told "there's a big plot twist at the end."

So wondering about his motivations with the proto-Independents, and whether he actually cared about the Alexander, or if he was betrayed, or if it was part of his plan, those are questions that are directly shaped by this story and wouldn't exist without it.

Quote:
Perhaps it was lost on you, but I think it's pretty clear that the scene was more than Book talking to Mal.

Way to ignore my point about foreshadowing. Also, way to imply it was lost on me, as if I'm too stupid to get it. I think you simply put some emotional stock into that scene that wasn't intended. It's okay, we all have some reactions that the creator might not intend to something, but then to apply that something that was unintended to your expectations on something else...? I mean, you're arguing that you would have preferred that Book's story remain untold, at the same time you're complaining there was no character development in Shepherd's Tale. These two positions are incompatible.

Quote:
I have better things to do with my time than engage in a debate that will lead nowhere except continued frustration on both sides.

Look. We like your stories. We do. Still Flying was good. But you want to know WHY everyone gets frustrated?

Because of stuff like this:

Quote:
I'm a professional editor and writer who consumes mass media (comics, books, movies, TV shows).

You are not the only person who consumes pop culture, you are not the only person who writes, you're not the only person who has an opinion, and just because you're a professional, in this situation, it doesn't make you more of an expert than anyone else who has access to the exact same materials you do.

And then you cop that attitude, while talking to fans of a creator, to badmouth the talent of that creator's family? Zack is a Whedon. You're talking like you think you could do better than they could, and hey, maybe you could, I'll even admit there are some directions they've taken in their stories I don't agree with. But you really didn't expect any backlash?

This is an informal fan discussion board where most of us, myself included, have no actual involvement in generating canon for the Firefly/Serenity verse. Since some of us also have some familiarity with pop culture and storytelling constructs, professional or not, we can all be said to have some amount of knowledge as regards to storytelling. Therefore this is not an argument between professionals versus laymen, it's an argument between FANS. All opinions are valid, but depending on how a person phrases their opinion, they may not win anyone over, or they might even start an argument. As such, you should not need to assert that you are a professional, as this is a subjective subject with no right or wrong answer (whether Shepherd's Tale was liked or not) and your opinion should stand on its own merits. Asserting that you are a professional actually undermines you here.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but Zack Whedon was not experienced enough to pull it off. (Now, having said that, I did enjoy his 8-page DOWNTIME... perhaps 8 pages is his limit).

You're only assuming Zack doesn't know how to do longform as an explanation for why you don't like Shepherd's Tale. And if you enjoyed Downtime, as I expected, then that suggests it's really not Zack's writing ability you have a problem with, but something particular to Shepherd's Tale.

*shrug* I have been presumptive myself, trying to guess at what that might be and whittle down the possibilities, and I'll apologize for that. Perhaps your reasons are just as you've said, and I'd be willing to stop there and leave you to your opinion, but your reasons, as they stand, do not actually make sense.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:06 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
then that suggests it's really not Zack's writing ability you have a problem with, but something particular to Shepherd's Tale.

Nail on the head. Especially given the comments regarding the dialog in Serenity. Shepherds Tale wasn't what this one individual wanted.... so he'll tell us he's qualified to judge the intelligence of folks who don't share his POV.

Im still amazed he claimed there's no conflict. A man working both sides in a war, constantly at risk, having to make moral compromises, and sending his own companions to die, sometimes by his own hand (metaphorically speaking).... Seriously, what kind of "writer/editor" sees "no conflict" there....?

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:14 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I can only hope now that Joss has the license to the characters that he will in fact put out comics moving the story forward. A monthly comic would be shiny.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

X.O. / Battalion O.I.C.

http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

http://76thbattalion.proboards.com

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:20 AM

BYTEMITE

I think he meant a conflict with an external antagonist, which is why I started talking about examples of stories that don't have them, but yes, I'd agree there's internal conflict.

GWEK, I know this is no fun and it seems like people are ganging up on you, but it's also no fun when someone says "I'm a professional writer, so all your opinions and interpretations are invalid and also stupid" and then walked out like that was the end of it. That isn't having a discussion, that's "I'm right, you're wrong."

And this is just a fan conversation, which, while Firefly is important to all of us, it doesn't technically matter if we're right or wrong, does it? Different people will take away different things from the show. I imagine Joss intended for it to be that way.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:22 AM

BYTEMITE

I seriously swear I heard something about him okaying a serial season of Serenity, with Zack storyboarding. Unfortunately I couldn't find a link to confirm, and it might have just been this?

In any case, I hope Joss has changed his mind about whether Firefly works in a continuous format instead of just oneshots as well.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 3:50 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

This argument is exactly why new cannon material can be hard. Some people will love it, and some people don't fancy it, not only do they not fancy it, but they vehemently don't like it. When Byte summarized Shepherd's Tale for me I thought it was fine sounding, not spectacular, but not bad either. But there are things that Joss could do with cannon that would really be hard for me to handle and I wouldn't be okay with them and I'd dispise the man for messing up the story I love to watch and read about and review for on fanfic. Because Firefly has gotten bigger than him or anyone else, it means so much to so many people in ways that no other show seems to. So there will be strong opinions about any new cannon.

Like Byte though I wouldn't mind a story about Inara's past, how she came to be on Serenity. And if people don't like the pasts that Whedan makes up they can write their own on fanfic, which has some really good stuff in it, just as good as the show in my opinion and certainly better than the BDM. Moving the show forward is the part that scares me. Anything before the movie doesn't worry me as much, but post BDM being written in stone worries me.

You guys will just have to agree to disagree I reckon.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:03 PM

MOOSE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I seriously swear I heard something about him okaying a serial season of Serenity, with Zack storyboarding. Unfortunately I couldn't find a link to confirm, and it might have just been this?

I heard that also.
Unfortunately, I don't recall where.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 6:16 PM

BYTEMITE

I know, right? If I could just confirm it we'd have a second season of Firefly to look forward to. Maybe not on tv but I'm not picky!

Riona: I can only hope any new stuff lives up to any hopes you might have, and not your fears. But you know... I think they like writing River a little word-salad-y, it's fun. I don't think they'll ever write her neurotypical, I mean she wasn't that even when she was probably about seven.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:56 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

GWEK, I know this is no fun and it seems like people are ganging up on you, but it's also no fun when someone says "I'm a professional writer, so all your opinions and interpretations are invalid and also stupid" and then walked out like that was the end of it. That isn't having a discussion, that's "I'm right, you're wrong."

Hear, hear.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:37 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Without conflict, a story is essentially pointless.

I agree, but ST was full of conflict IMO.
In fact, I thought it was pretty great. I tore thought it faster than most comics I read.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:01 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Gwek, I understand how it feels to dislike something that most people really enjoy, I don't prefer the BDM, sure it has some cool stuff in it, but overall I think I'll pass, but most people seem to like it. I don't think there's anything weird about you if you don't like the Shepherd's Tale, its your opinion and that is fine, just like I don't prefer the BDM. I think what bothers people is that you insinuate that your opinion holds greater weight because you do this professionally, you get paid for it. I think that's what people are taking issue with, not the fact that your opinion is different than theirs.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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