What would have happened to Simon...? by THESOMNAMBULIST

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
The Alliance isn't playing games here.

I expect you are right.

The Alliance would have a constitution with human rights protections that are, mostly, for show. Officers take an oath to their constitution, but soon forget their promises. I, the Operative, do solemnly affirm that I will support and defend the Constitution of the Alliance; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me Buddha.

It sounds very pretty. Experienced officers don't let their oath get in their way or slow them down. They have their careers and promotions to think of. Occasionally, their consciences are troubled, much like the Operative admitted to Mal. But if the Alliance won't punish oath-breakers for ignoring the Constitution when it is convenient . . . Well, then a gunship kills everybody in Haven. The only cost is ammo. Nobody will be court-martialled. They probably get military citations for efficiency.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:50 AM

Well, either Simon would have been killed... Or worse. He'd be kept in custody, just in case River ever used her genius abilities to get around or break the psychological conditioning and she needed any "persuasion."

I have a feeling that if the Alliance is okay with dragging little girls down into underground bunker complex hell for involuntary surgery and traumatic assassin training, they probably don't have too much issue with outright torture.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:15 AM

DALEK!

I agree he would be killed or locked away. I think the Alliance government would have created some story on how Simon was killed during his arrest but managed to kill many of th officers involved. That way they can also eliminate the Feds who caught him and River.

As far as the Operative and the events of Serenity I tend to think that most of the troops under his command were elite forces picked because they would not question orders. I see them as far different then the majority of Alliance officers in the Verse.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:23 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

He is too dangerous alive (even when locked up) and his brain power is too under utilized if dead. So I suspect more River-like experiments - what could be worse for him? "If you won't join us willingly, we'll change who you are." Hello Dark Simon.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:18 AM

YELLOWJACKET

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
Indeed is there any reference to the death penalty in the Verse ?

Yep. You will be killed by an operative for knowing too much. The operative made this very clear by killing three federal employees right out of the gate. Then he killed a whole host of criminals, contacts and just plain old innocent bystanders. Even Mr. Universe didn't see it coming. Simon might have survived long enough to give up the name of EVERY SINGLE PERSON HE EVER TALKED TO OR WORKED WITH in relation to River, but they'd be fitting him for a body bag even as he wrote down the names, which he wouldn't do anyway.

If the film isn't enough to convince you, the hands of blue guys killed every single soldier that was with River the only other time she was caught, and they were killed just because she was speaking nonsense within earshot.

If River had said 'Miranda' any louder at the Maidenhead Bar, the Alliance would have carpet bombed that whole city block.

If they knew that River and Badger had bandied words aboard Serenity, they would have garroted him and buried him in the desert with his 'very fine hat'.

Those hill people that wanted to burn River as a witch...well...let's just say they'd see a fire much bigger than the pile of sticks they piled up if the Alliance knew she'd been berry picking anywhere near there.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:58 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yeah, they might have killed him or perhaps they'd keep him for experiments later, the only reason they might not is that he's fully grown and thus might not be as applicable for experimentation, but they could make some use of him, maybe just to see what happens when you experiment on smart grownups. I suspect that they'd be debating what to do with him because some would just say kill him and be done and some would be curious about other applications for this new commodity.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 2:54 PM

I disagree.

River & by association Simon & all who talked to River
presented the danger of scandal to the Alliance ... if
she knew that an Alliance experiment on Miranda created
the Reavers ... sub-men that most Core citizens regard
as myth.

The primary reason to get River and all her associates
was to prevent that scandal. Thus at the end of the
movie, that reason became a fail. They'd accept that
the scandal was known & turn to minimize the damage
of it.

They'd probably still want River back for their original
purpose: She was their trained, warrior woman property.

As for Simon, what they'd do to him depends on if the
officer in charge is vindictive or practical. Surely he could
"forget" what he knew & be returned to his aristocratic
parents. Or trained to serve Alliance.

There are no human rights under the Evil Empire; nor
is there any reason for vengeance or wasting those
who are potentially useful.

After all, the PAX experiment was meant to pacify
people, make them agreeable, not harm them.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 3:32 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I just don't think Miranda is the be all and end all in the Firefly verse, sure its a big thing, but imagine what other atrocities the Alliance has engaged in and what else they plan for the future.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:12 PM

In my view, the Alliance is about Control. It's purpose is to
expand indefinitely, to own all the land and space as well, to the
extent this is possible. Even more important perhaps is to have
millions of citizens, mostly serfs, and control all of them.
That's my take on empires.

Empires, if business-like, do not perpetrate atrocities needlessly.
In my view, the wise king uses the iron fist sparingly. Power does
corrupt, yes, and some in power will be atrocious for the fun of it.

In literature, atrocities tend to be more for fun and meaness
than for exerting control. In reality-history, atrocities get our
attention, and may appear to be the rule. But if we look beyond
what shocks us, we may find many decent rulers . . . Maybe not.

I seriously doubt that even THE Evil Empire (of Skywalker & Solo
fame) has a backlog of atrocities that they plan to commit as soon
as they find the time.

ETA: OTOH, the PAX experiment on Miranda was an atrocity against free will.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:54 AM

DALEK!

I agree that the Alliance is about control but the movers and shakers within the Alliance may not share the same vision of control. Some may want to eliminate violence and live in that better world. Other may only be seeking control because of the power it gives them, so control by violence is a high for them.

As for more atrocities I doubt there are any hidden near as big as Miranda. Now there maybe some that are hidden in plane sight, Shadow comes to mind.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:41 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Pretty sure that Simon would have been tortured to see what, if anything, she had divulged to him. Once they had everything from him they thought they could get, he would have been killed and his body disposed of.

Holding the line since December '02!

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:21 AM

The Alliance also bombed a planet into slag in the backstory, its why Mal has no home (burn the land and boil the sea, and confirmed outright in other sources). It's actually not too different from the Empire in Star Wars testing the death star on Alderaan. Only Shadow wasn't a bunch of pacifists, but that still doesn't really justify it.

They also bombed a number of settlements just because a few people in those settlements had some association with the crew, and made sure to kill everyone.

And the Alliance uses slaves and encourages trafficking as a dirty open secret (see the opening conversation in Shindig), which is par for the course with empires in general.

I think by nature control schemes are destructive. It is a net-zero sum game that results in a constant escalation of effort (creating the Pax, a rather extreme solution), if not force (destruction of Shadow, the Unification War).

I see empires as inherently atrocious and exploitative, because in order to become defined as an empire, it requires conquering beyond the original voluntary involvement and representation in order to obtain resources and labour to sustain itself.

Quote:
An empire is a state with politico-military dominion of populations who are culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture — unlike a federation, an extensive state voluntarily composed of autonomous states and peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire

So to me, the fictional Star Wars Empire and the Firefly Alliance are both abominations by their very nature, and destroying planets and gassing populations is the inevitable result of their policies.

With Operatives and dangerous contractors and bounty hunters that are known to be dispensed to kill people who know too much or to retrieve human experimentation projects (or both), I think Simon will be disappeared in one way or another when they catch up with him. Again, par for the course.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:40 PM

Quote Oonjerah: "the Alliance is about Control"

I kinda wanna apologize for my remarks above. This thread is,
after all, about the 'Verse, not about empirical policies on
Earth according to me.

More specifically, it's about What would have happened to Simon...?
Personally, I hope he'd become a skillful inhabitant of "under-
ground communities," such as Serenity. He would have slipped
thru their net by playing dead for a bit.

My theory is, if they caught the Tams, they'd want River back
for whatever their original intent was. If so, they'd want her
compliant (tho I see no way she would be). Since she is psychic,
they cannot abuse/kill Simon without her knowing of it.

That'd be a conundrum. Wouldn't it?

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:22 PM

Quote:
I kinda wanna apologize for my remarks above. This thread is,
after all, about the 'Verse, not about empirical policies on
Earth according to me.

Yeah, I kind of went off on a rant there. Whoops.

Just... Kinda don't like empires...

Quote:
Since she is psychic,
they cannot abuse/kill Simon without her knowing of it.

That'd be a conundrum. Wouldn't it?

That's kind of why I think it would be another form of persuasion they'd use. River could try to be rebellious in response to them mistreating Simon, but they'd mistreat SImon more until she broke and gave in.

Bad side of being an empath: you feel everything. Knowing it's her brother and the only person who was brave enough and cared enough to try to save her, and that he was captured and suffering because of his caring about her would just make it worse. Which would then make it more persuasive. She'd cooperate out of both fear and guilt, and begin to develop a complex about blaming herself and self-loathing that would make her even more pliable.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:08 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Even though River knows some things that will happen, she doesn't seem to know it all, so its possible that Simon could be killed and her not know it, after all they'd keep him far away from her, on another planet etc. if they don't want her to know. Its still possible she could know, since she has in incling about Wash and Book going to die in a short story in Still Flying, but just because she knows some things doesn't mean she knows all.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:44 PM

I am all for Simon & River remaining free as when we last saw them.
(Simon and Kaylee would have kids.)

But River's come a long way since her captivity. I think she is twice
as lethal and twice as smart about the ways of the Alliance. She'd
outsmart the bastards. Maybe she'd free up most of the other "students"
on her way out.

Also, in the psychic world, physical distance tends to be irrelevant.
She would know what's happening with Simon if it's intense and concerns
her. Their connection is strong.

ETA: I wonder if Joss had plans to graduate any of River's classmates?

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 10:48 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Interesting turn of events with this question.

Clearly the consensus is he'd be killed. Which I think is hard to argue, but there's a part of me that's wondering if the Alliance wouldn't be better served by using Simon and River for some much needed propaganda.

Having lost a certain amount of face with the Pax fiasco I shouldn't wonder if the Alliance would hold a big public trial, and use the coverage to 'twist' events to curry favour with the masses.

So, you know, hold the event on a wealthy Alliance bias planet and bring out certain truths that would 'damage' or 'fracture' the credibility of Simon and River's plight. Even go so far as to offer Simon his old position back.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:02 PM

It's Obvious!
As soon as the existence of Reavers became a known fact,
the Alliance wiped them out, saving core planets from them.
The Alliance is good and great!

It's just as obvious that the hysterical report broadcasted
anonymously from Mr. Universe's renegade station has no basis.
It could be anything ... an outtake from an old movie, even.
Reaver origin remains a mystery.

Most of the foolishness about Reavers should fade quickly ...
as soon as a newer, interesting story comes along.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:57 AM

DALEK!

The best lies contain as much of the truth as possible.

I don't see the Alliance trying to use River and Simon for propaganda simple because they would be hard to control. Plus there is no reason for the Allaince to bring up River or the Academy when addressing the Reavers and Miranda.

I think the Alliance would have not choice but to tell at least some truth, and then very publicly punish, or seem to punish, the people within the Parliment resoncible for Miranda.

That's how I wrote it in my current FanFic.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:13 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

That's the trick with these what-ifs: there's the what seems likely given what we know about the characters and story up to this point, and then there's the what makes for good story telling. Not always the same, though the best story telling has to feel genuine. From this thread there are plenty of routes that feel genuine to fans. For me it would be a waste from a story pov not to use Simon for some further twisting, arcing, dramatic punch of some kind. It still feels like there's a lot more to his and River's collective story.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:22 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
Clearly the consensus is he'd be killed. Which I think is hard to argue, but there's a part of me that's wondering if the Alliance wouldn't be better served by using Simon and River . . .

Simon and River have a big problem surviving after the movie. Perhaps the Operative will become their permanent guardian angel. Or Joss and Zack Whedon can imagine a reason why Simon and River survive without the Operative's protection. Anybody got ideas? Maybe River becomes the Alliance's telepathic Reaver locator? She survives because she is useful to the Alliance's Reaver extermination program.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:43 AM

DALEK!

That's if the Alliance comes after them. That is not a forgone conclusion. What benefit, other than revenge, would that be to the Alliance? The Operative killed Doctor Mathias, which may very well have ended the Academy program. Miranda is all ready exposed. Not really any benefit for them, more so when you take into account the loss of Alliance personnel and recourses that had already been wasted trying to get them.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:12 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
That's if the Alliance comes after them.

They will.

Joss has made the Alliance bloody-minded and vindictive all through the TV episodes and comics. Remember Serenity: The Shepherd's Tale where a gunship kills everybody in Haven? For no good tactical reason other than the military has enough ammo to do it? The Alliance military has a serious discipline problem using force in a reasonable manner. Because of all the military deaths in orbit around Mr Universe's moon, Cygnus, I think the military is hostile and stupid enough to want to kill everyone on Serenity. That includes Simon and River.

This pilot must have thought he was in a Hollywood movie. Maybe he saw Serenity?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:57 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
That's if the Alliance comes after them.
They will.

Joss has made the Alliance bloody-minded and vindictive all through the TV episodes and comics. Remember Serenity: The Shepherd's Tale where a gunship kills everybody in Haven? For no good tactical reason other than the military has enough ammo to do it? The Alliance military has a serious discipline problem using force in a reasonable manner. Because of all the military deaths in orbit around Mr Universe's moon, Cygnus, I think the military is hostile and stupid enough to want to kill everyone on Serenity. That includes Simon and River.

"If your quarry goes to ground leave no ground to go to." There was a reason to do that, and it was ordered by the Operative, not the government as a whole. In fact if the gunship was to kill everyone and then sit and wait for Serenity it makes even more sense.

Now other that the military's aggression during Serenity, which was directed by the Operative to complete a specific mission, we don't see them as you described. In the pilot the cruiser captain decides go to a distress call instead of following Serenity. In Bushwhacked the captain is going to arrest the crew, not kill them. Then when Mal saves his life and shows that he was not lying he lets them go. The Train Job and Safe we see Alliance officers as indifferent at the most.

Plus even if the military wanted to go after Serenity and the Tams they would have to get their marching orders from the Parliment, who as stated has not good reason to go after them other than revenge. That could very well bit them in the ass and I think a body smart enough to basicly control an entire star system is smart enough to know this. The Opertaive was most likely the best they had other than a full military operation and all point bulliten for Serenity. Making that much noise about a single ship is going to stir up a lot of questions.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 6:23 AM

Well, it's mostly the Operative said that the Alliance probably wouldn't stop hunting them. And we know they probably do want to get River back, she's the best prototype for a psychic assassin they've ever had, which means that they would not want to let anyone who has been known to be able to break her out or hide her to go free. Let alone allow them to go public with information about what they've been doing to River and probably other children and maybe even adults.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 6:56 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Well, it's mostly the Operative said that the Alliance probably wouldn't stop hunting them. And we know they probably do want to get River back, she's the best prototype for a psychic assassin they've ever had, which means that they would not want to let anyone who has been known to be able to break her out or hide her to go free. Let alone allow them to go public with information about what they've been doing to River and probably other children and maybe even adults.

"I can't guarantee they won't come after you. The Parliament. They do not forget and are not forgiving." "I told them the Tams were no longer a threat...damage done. They might listen, but...I think they know I'm no longer their man."

From what the Operative says I don't think it is that clear. Plus until the Operative, or who sent him, figures out that River may have gleamed secrets from members of Parliaments the push to get River was a bit passive. You have the Men with Blue Hands, but other then that you only had warrants and a bounty.

Migth be they let her be, so long as she does not start problems for them.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 7:14 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Might be they let her be, so long as she does not start problems for them.

So . . . no one in government or military cares much about the Tams? No need to run? Then it is time for them to leave Serenity.

That is a dull ending for Firefly unless it becomes a hospital drama. In that case, Simon goes back to cardiovascular, thoracic & transplant surgery. River can finish med school and specialize in psychoanalysis. Think telepathic Sigmund Freud. Can't hide the guilt from sibling incest from her!

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 7:44 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
So . . . no one in government or military cares much about the Tams? No need to run? Then it is time for them to leave Serenity.

That is a dull ending for Firefly unless it becomes a hospital drama. In that case, Simon goes back to cardiovascular, thoracic & transplant surgery. River can finish med school and specialize in psychoanalysis. Think telepathic Sigmund Freud. Can't hide the guilt from sibling incest from her!

Maybe, of course there is a difference between actively going after a person and not wanting them around. Simon and River might still have warrants out for them, if nothing else to keep them in hiding. The government could have revoked Simon's medical license on trumped up grounds.

Thing is if the Alliance decided to come after them with full force you would not get a happy ending, but you would get an ending. If the government knows that the Tams are on Serenity the whole crew coudl be marked as fugitives. That means any planet with port control is now a no go. The crew does not have many friends left and would be hard pressed just getting fuel and rations for the ship. It would not be long before they got desperate and then dead.

The only reason the crew got out of trouble in the movie was because of the change of heart in the Operative. I doubt they would get that lucky again, let alone fine another army of Reavers to use.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 11:50 AM

Quote:
If the government knows that the Tams are on Serenity the whole crew coudl be marked as fugitives. That means any planet with port control is now a no go. The crew does not have many friends left and would be hard pressed just getting fuel and rations for the ship. It would not be long before they got desperate and then dead.

Technically they WERE marked as fugitives, if you catch a freeze frame of the crew biographies when the Operative comes up with his plan to use Inara as bait. Those biographies are also included as extras on the Serenity Blue Ray.

So that very could be where the next part of the series goes, unless the Operative managed to use his position to wipe the the flags from their files first. Don't know if he did, so it's hard to say.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:24 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

There are a lot of stories where the Opperative delivers and takes Simon and River's names off the wanted list, but Simon and River stay aboard Serenity, where they belong and have family. Equally there are plenty of stories where the Alliance is still after them so the crew must continue to keep a low profile. I like that we don't know what officially happened, that way there can be as many Firefly stories out there as there are people to write them and we can all choose which ones to read and like and which ones to avoid, nothing is set in stone and your future is whatever you make it.

Would they close the Academy? I would hope so, but I would hope that no one would do that to people in the first place, so hopes are pretty null and void at this point. I think they would find reasons to justify keeping it open since they've done so much already, spent so much money and time. The only reason they'd close it is if the public found out what they were doing, then they'd have to close it, or pretend they were closing it at least.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:18 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Technically they WERE marked as fugitives, if you catch a freeze frame of the crew biographies when the Operative comes up with his plan to use Inara as bait. Those biographies are also included as extras on the Serenity Blue Ray.

So that very could be where the next part of the series goes, unless the Operative managed to use his position to wipe the the flags from their files first. Don't know if he did, so it's hard to say.

I took a look, and Mal's bio says that he had been bound by law five time with no convictions.

The Operative could have, if he had that power. There is simply a lot ow ways it could go.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:26 PM

With Doctor Mathias gone, and substantial knowledge from their
experiments so far, the Academy might continue to train psychic
assassins in a more humane way ... could be a doctor, even a
psychiatrist, who sees that humane training would help to insure
loyalty.

Don't think Joss would agree, though. No.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:49 PM

DALEK!

I've always seen the Operative as a type of cleaner. I think he went into the situation with the mission to clean up the whole mess. He also nicely exposed a problem using psychics, you really can't keep secrets from them. Even if they are not handled by people in the know, you can't use them against anyone who is, unless you don't mind them having those secrets.

The operative seemed quite happy just to kill River, I think his talk of taking her home was nothing but lip service. Hell if he would have gotten her ans she told him anything he would have been the next target. "I'm not concerned with secrets, but with keeping them."

I think the Academy is gone, almost every trace disposed of. So even if River and Simon came foreword there would be no proof to support there claims.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:25 PM

I just had to deal with ten minutes of downloaded internet movie trailers on my crappy Blu Ray player in order to print screen it only for my computer to black it out for being a copyrighted image.

But it is there. Every single character in the dossier has FEDERAL STATUS: FUGITIVE written in their file.

For Mal, it'll be on the very last frame.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I've always seen the Operative as a type of cleaner. I think he went into the situation with the mission to clean up the whole mess. He also nicely exposed a problem using psychics, you really can't keep secrets from them. Even if they are not handled by people in the know, you can't use them against anyone who is, unless you don't mind them having those secrets.

The operative seemed quite happy just to kill River, I think his talk of taking her home was nothing but lip service. Hell if he would have gotten her ans she told him anything he would have been the next target. "I'm not concerned with secrets, but with keeping them."

I think the Academy is gone, almost every trace disposed of. So even if River and Simon came foreword there would be no proof to support there claims.

Extremely likely, in fact that's an angle I explored in my fanfics.

So it could go either way, they want to do more research or she's too dangerous, destroy her.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:47 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Jewels_%28Central_Intelligence_Age
ncy%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKDELTA

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
With Doctor Mathias gone, and substantial knowledge from their
experiments so far, the Academy might continue to train psychic
assassins in a more humane way ... could be a doctor, even a
psychiatrist, who sees that humane training would help to insure
loyalty.

Don't think Joss would agree, though. No.

Oonj, I think Joss Whedon was interested in revealing to us US GOV'T programs that had actually happened, have supposedly been scrapped, but which probably are still ongoing.

I direct you to the Family Jewels Report, MKULTRA, MKDELTA.

Quote:
Funding of behavior modification research on unwitting US citizens, including unscientific, non-consensual human experiments.(see also Project MKULTRA)

Quote:
MKDELTA, and its associated program MKULTRA, were mind control and interrogation operations run by the Central Intelligence Agency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats

Quote:
The Men Who Stare at Goats (2004) is a book by Jon Ronson about the U.S. Army's exploration of New Age concepts and the potential military applications of the paranormal. The title refers to attempts to kill goats by staring at them. Research was carried out in part by Jon Ronson, but also by documentary filmmaker John Sergeant.

The book examines connections between military programs and psychological techniques being used for interrogation in the War on Terror. The book traces the evolution of these covert activities over the past three decades, and sees how they are alive today within U.S. Homeland Security and the Iraq War. It examines the use of the theme tune to Barney & Friends on Iraqi prisoners-of-war, the smuggling of a hundred de-bleated goats into the Special Forces command center at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and the connection between the U.S. military and the mass-suicide of members of the Heaven's Gate cult in San Diego.

There are some very dark rabbit holes out there.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:49 PM

BTW... Nick, where is your avatar from? It reminds me of a video game coming out soon that I'm very excited about.

EDIT: It is it is omigosh squee

I hereby am going to give you so much less bullshit and declare you amazing

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 4:37 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I just had to deal with ten minutes of downloaded internet movie trailers on my crappy Blu Ray player in order to print screen it only for my computer to black it out for being a copyrighted image.

But it is there. Every single character in the dossier has FEDERAL STATUS: FUGITIVE written in their file.

For Mal, it'll be on the very last frame.

Are you talking movie or extra's? I only checked the movie because I have it saved on my PC so it was easy to get to and I did not see it.

Yes my avatar is from Diablo 3, which I might get if they drop the whole must connect to our servers to play BS. I'm still a big fan of Diablo 2, still have it on my PC. Of course it is a bit of a love-hate thing with Blizzard. I never upgraded to 1.10 because I think it was crap. V1.09 for life!

...we now return to the original topic.

Okay, you're talking Blue-ray extras. The in film bio for Mal does not list him as a fugitive. I personally don't know how much stake I would put in the extra's. As with everything else it is up tot he individual.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 4:55 PM

Extras. So I guess that would explain it.

Quote:
which I might get if they drop the whole must connect to our servers to play BS.

It's actually not too horrible. It makes it really easy to switch your game between singleplayer to inviting people into your game. There's not even a loading time.

Of course, yeah, I do know the reason they want to do that is so they can monitor the players more, which does stick in my craw... But on the other hand... It's... It's concentrated nostalgia BLISS.

At least they aren't charging people to play.

You haeb SoJ?

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 7:22 PM

Quote Bytemite: "The Men Who Stare at Goats (2004) is a book by Jon Ronson
about the U.S. Army's exploration of New Age concepts and the potential
military applications of the paranormal. The title refers to attempts to
kill goats by staring at them."

i.e., "I can kill you with my brain."

Being an ostrich, I never heard of any of this.
Heard considerable about psychic stuff back when, 80's I guess.
And everyone did expect the military to keep up on it.

ETA: Oops! An obvious connection recalled. Will get back to you.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 7:55 PM

Edgar Dean Mitchell, an American pilot, engineer, and astronaut =>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Mitchell

Ed is also the founder/co-founder (1973) of the Institute of Noetic Sciences.
That's earlier than I recall. Prior to creating/registering the IoNS, Ed was
about in the San Francisco Bay area meeting, associating with known psychics,
including instructors and trainees of the Berkeley Psychic Institute.

Interesting, no?

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Friday, April 13, 2012 2:55 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Simon's fate can be tied to bigger issues. The 'Verse that we have seen in the movie is too either/or, too Alliance vs Browncoat. It deserves a third side to make it more complicated.

On Earth, the USA can't secretly arrest/kill a Simon by sending troops into Russia or France or India. Even Pakistan is too much for the USA to handle. That raid on Osama bin Laden almost became a fiasco when a helicopter crashed. In the same situation, if the USA had gone after Simon and it was River providing the defense, you know which side would lose.

To create stories where Simon survives to 50, the 'Verse needs a neutral Switzerland planet or a distinctive culture Quebec planet. It's possible -- there are enough planets that we don't know much about. Beaumonde, Fanty and Mingo's place of business, could be that planet.

If Simon becomes a citizen of Beaumonde, the Alliance might have some legal restraints on what it will do to captured Simon, if its courts mean anything,

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, April 13, 2012 3:48 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Simon's fate can be tied to bigger issues. The 'Verse that we have seen in the movie is too either/or, too Alliance vs Browncoat. It deserves a third side to make it more complicated.

On Earth, the USA can't secretly arrest/kill a Simon by sending troops into Russia or France or India. Even Pakistan is too much for the USA to handle. That raid on Osama bin Laden almost became a fiasco when a helicopter crashed. In the same situation, if the USA had gone after Simon and it was River providing the defense, you know which side would lose.

To create stories where Simon survives to 50, the 'Verse needs a neutral Switzerland planet or a distinctive culture Quebec planet. It's possible -- there are enough planets that we don't know much about. Beaumonde, Fanty and Mingo's place of business, could be that planet.

If Simon becomes a citizen of Beaumonde, the Alliance, if its courts mean anything, might have some legal restraints on what the Alliance will do to captured Simon.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Unfortunately that is not the Verse. The one thing that is quite clear is that the Alliance government is that supreme power. It does not matter which planet you are on you are still under the Alliance's jurisdiction.

I don't think you have to add an element such as the one you described to make things more complicated, and thus create a third option. The Alliance government and the people in power within it are not a hive mind. I sure you would have political and power struggles within it all the time. Throw in large corps like Blue Sun and there influence and things get more interesting. The regime that was weakened and embarrassed by the Miranda wave may not be in power, or may not be the most powerful, within that government tomorrow.

Maybe it's just how I look at it. I don't see the whole of the Alliance government ever focused on River and Simon, even when the Operative is after them. Only a few that are paying attention to them. After the Wave that might be a different story, of course the government will also have to deal with the fallout while each individual power group looks out for power plays from the others. Heck, some in the Parliament might even want to thank the Tams in the end. Politics can create strange bed fellows.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 4:43 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Unfortunately that is not the Verse. The one thing that is quite clear is that the Alliance government is that supreme power. It does not matter which planet you are on you are still under the Alliance's jurisdiction.

That depends on what story Joss Whedon wants to tell about the 'Verse. Back on Earth, the USA can nuke anyplace and yet that power does not mean the USA has control. Just because the Alliance won the Unification War does not mean that the Alliance can do whatever Parliament decides about people like Simon and River. It is Joss who decides and he has a hundred planets that are nominally part of the Alliance. It might be a very loose alliance with places that Parliament does not have any more control than the USA has over Pakistan.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, April 13, 2012 5:22 AM

DALEK!

It’s Joss or at this point anyone who decides to tell stories about the Verse.

Now the US government power within the world is not equivalent to the Alliance's power within the Verse. If you want to use the US government as a reference point then the Verse equivalent would be within the US boarders.

From what I see the Alliance can do what it wants within the Verse. It is seems pretty obvious that it is the sovereign power, if not by law it self, but by pure military power.

You’re right there are some places that Alliance does not seem to have a lot of influence and power, but the difference between those places and the US vs. Pakistan example is that the Alliance could very easily if it wanted to. Those places do not have standing armies.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 6:17 AM

Oonj: Yeah, it is.

I'm sure the Alliance also does research into human thoughts influencing reality. In addition to precognition and location scrying, which I'm sure our government also researched.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 7:04 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You’re right there are some places that Alliance does not seem to have a lot of influence and power, but the difference between those places and the US vs. Pakistan example is that the Alliance could very easily if it wanted to. Those places do not have standing armies.

Are you absolutely, positively sure that the "Alliance" army on every planet is centrally and completely controlled by the one and only Parliament? Are all planets enslaved to the will of the Parliament and not really allies of the Alliance? When the Parliament says jump, every big and small population planet says how high?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, April 13, 2012 7:14 AM