Alan and Joss.... by THESOMNAMBULIST

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Alan and Joss....

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POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 07:03
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/XuPOwt
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Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:31 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

[url] http://www.unleashthefanboy.com/news/alan-tudyk-says-firefly-has-a-rea
l-chance-of-returning/42856?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_43940[/url]

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Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:03 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

While the fanboy in me wants to take Alan's comments to mean that something is afoot, the browncoat in me, the one that has been here since the show was on the air and went through all of the heartache, the ups and downs, I just can't get but so excited about this article. Reckon that's how love is.....you get burned bad you're too gun shy to jump back in.

_______________________________________________

Holding the line since December '02!

C.O. 76th Independent Battalion

http://76thbattalion.proboards.com

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Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:39 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

“How would one unkill Wash?” - Adam Baldwin, Feb 1, 2013 http://splashpage.mtv.com/2013/02/01/adam-baldwin-joss-whedon-serenity/

“I don’t know how they’d explain Wash’s sudden return from the grave, but I suppose that doesn’t really matter. I don’t care if they use black magic or George Lucas levels of ret-conning, just bring back the entire cast!” - Feb 6, 2013 by Steve L

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, February 7, 2013 6:08 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
[url] http://www.unleashthefanboy.com/news/alan-tudyk-says-firefly-has-a-rea
l-chance-of-returning/42856?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_43940[/url]

Zoe gives birth to Wash's clone, which is kidnapped by Blue Sun for its experimental Adavanced Growth Accelleration Unit, at which point Wash 2.0 returns as an assassin hunting the crew of Serenity for payback.

Or a prequel with a LOT of makeup with CGI.

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Friday, February 8, 2013 5:16 AM

REAVERFAN

This was in the comments with the article:

"In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the
crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the
way, they are informed by Simon that the same medical tech that
produced Tracy's hopped up internal organs ("million credit meat" in
Tracy's words) are accessible at Government research facilities. Using a
bit of improvisation and Book's ident card, they sneak Wash in place of
a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey
who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance
bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse
returns to normal."

I'll suspend my disbelief. Bring it, Joss!

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Friday, February 8, 2013 9:41 AM

EBFIDDLER

When this comes to pass, I will cheer. Until then, it's nice to know that the actors retain their positive attitude toward this show, but I won't hold my breath waiting for the remake.

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Friday, February 8, 2013 3:05 PM

PENNAUSAMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:
This was in the comments with the article:

"In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different,
the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial.
SNIP"

I'll suspend my disbelief. Bring it, Joss!

Yeah, that is mine.
I've posted variations of it many times.
Some people love it, some folks hate it.
Here is the whole deal if you like long reads:

WASH LIVES Re: Wash's death in "Serenity".

Based on what follows, you may gather that this is something I feel strongly about. To carry forward the bazillions of what I've posted regarding my take on Wash's death: In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they are informed by Simon that the same medical tech that produced Tracy's hopped up internal organs ("million credit meat" in Tracy's words) are accessible at Government research facilities. Using a bit of improvisation and Book's ident card, they sneak Wash in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues.
The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

I will miss Book but his death was a more acceptable fit than Wash's.
One: Books death was important to the storyline and character development because Book was the catalyst to Mal regaining a little bit of his "rudder". Book's casual murder by the Operative and his dying wish, nay, DEMAND that Mal "believe" again made Mal and crew confront River's Miranda secret, rather than just run. Wash was sacrificed meaninglessly as a plot gimmick to create peril.
Two: Book was an individual who interacted with the crew but Wash was half of a happily married couple who as such made up an important ingredient of Firefly's unique-ness. To destroy that couple as not-even-a plot device is a cheap shot at all those who reveled in a mature, married couple as part of the cast ensemble. Which ties into,
Three: Book is a more easily replaced character. If another character with deep-seated religious beliefs were to join Serenity, (not a Shepherd but perhaps a person who wouldn't be stereotypically devout, say a blue-collar industrial worker who knows why he trusts in his Christian faith) the conscience-character would not replace Book but add to his legacy. But if some "guy" just jumped into Zoe's heart and bed, it would be creepy and an insult to both Wash and Zoe.
Four: Also, Book's mysterious past could be explored in flashback, which would keep actor Ron Glass involved in the series without quite the level of sadness that showing widow Zoe's dead husband would cause. Wash is the "funny" character and there is little funny about being reminded of his death. The dynamic has been needlessly shifted from all the things Firefly used to be about (do the job, keep flying, found family) to life without Wash. Mal has no pilot (and making River skilled at Wash's level is a farce of a fiction if ever there was one), Zoe has no husband, Simon has no friend and advocate, Jayne has no light-hearted counter-point and the ship has no smart-assed comic relief.

Book's role is replaceable, Wash is NOT. I LOVE the potential storylines and character development that grow out of Wash being saved. I am disheartened and depressed at the downward spiral that is inevitable if Wash is removed from the Firefly equation. My fear is that Joss, in his quest for "realism", has cut off major-ly interesting storylines about Simon and River's future, Zoe and Wash's future, Mal and Inara, because of killing or separating characters. Characters being "Jossed" in the words of the Australian Q&A participant. He's already wiped out the whole Zoe and Wash dynamic. Gee, I can hardly wait for him to break up Kaylee and Simon (which he has alluded to) so it feels "real". Oh Boy! Maybe he'll KILL Simon and not just break 'em up! I can hardly wait! My fear was Joss crapping all over his own show in the name of drama and cuz everybody KNOWS he's a genius, fans just nod their heads and say, "Yes, of course that was the dramatic choice he HAD to make". My response? BU(($H!T! I watched a show about people who could commit criminal acts armed with deadly weapons while still being the GOOD guys to escape reality. Not to have my nose rubbed in more reality.

So what do I want? Wash back. Wash being saved by Simon adds exciting new dramatic tension for the characters. Zoe would now "owe" loyalty to two people; Mal for saving her and Simon for saving Wash. A viable plot/character development would be her journey to her not owing anybody, which would strengthen her relationship with her husband, Wash. ("What this marriage needs is one less husband") And Mal would have less of a subordinate and more of a partner. And Zoe would be an even stronger female character; but dramatically MADE stronger thru growth, not contrivance.

Think of the character development that grows out of Wash being saved. Wash would still be sarcastic, but with a bit more "bite" in his humor. The Wash/ Zoe discussions on whether or not to have a child would amp up a notch. The whole "how long can we stay in the crime business" discussion would get more intense. Mal and Wash have both been killed. Mal brought back by Niska's torturer; in my scenario, Wash by Simon, who is the only reason Kaylee isn't dead after getting shot by Dobson. Book is gone, killed by the Alliance. "Zoe, honey, I think we need a new line of work."

I think River and Simon would travel with the crew a while longer, but they would end up settling on the Rim somewhere. Simon would be able to really help in a Rim world hospital, especially if a general practitioner was all they had. River could grow and heal, away from hi-tech intrusions. Really that is the appropriate end for Firefly as I see it. The crew sort of dissolves over the last few episodes, settling down on different worlds, losing touch with one-another. Sorta sad, seeing the found-family break up; but not TRAGIC and depressing. More like real life when people leave a job and lose touch with co-workers they considered friends.

In my mind, Wash lives. I feel so strongly about his place in the Firefly dynamic that if no more Firefly can come after Serenity without dead Wash, I'd rather it end at Serenity* and allow me to finish it out in my own mind in a way that makes me happy. ( My "Wash Lives" plotline.) Joss creates GREAT fictional characters to draw an audience in, but it is my opinion that he loses much of that audience because of his insistence on killing off the very characters he attracted the audience WITH. Look at the two big movies of summer 2008. Ironman Dark Knight Both huge hits and both true to what they were. Ironman was fun and the Dark Knight was...dark. If the filmmakers had tried to inject more "realistic" tragedy into Ironman, it would have ruined the movie. Once a motivational character is killed (Book in Serenity, the doctor in Ironman) a fun movie doesn't support any more tragic reality without losing its uplifting quality. Book's death in Serenity, and the doctor's death in Ironman were dramatically important to the main characters' growth in both movies. But the Ironman creators knew not to bring their movie down after that, and the commercial success of the movie stems in part from that. Serenity was certainly not a less good movie than Ironman, but it wasn't true to its own nature. Along with some other reasons/ circumstances, it paid for that misunderstanding of its own nature with a poor showing at the box office.

Everybody vilifies FOX, but thank God they insisted on lightening up Mal and the tone of the series. Mark my words, if it weren't for that meddling, Firefly would have faded into obscurity. I don't know who all remembers the Australian Q&A, but the question Joss asked the audience was whether they preferred more of the movie or more of the series. He even prefaced their response with "I think I know which it is". The audience strongly said "Firefly" and Joss nodded as tho' that was what he expected. Although there are fans who like the dark misery stuff, the uplifting elements of Firefly/Serenity are what create an ENDURING fandom.

Some fans point to the deaths as bringing "realism" to SERENITY. Do they really think Firefly was "realistic"? Just to ask a silly question: do you think the U.S. Navy could support a nuclear-powered submarine by selling energy bars? Even if they were salvaged? Maybe if they smuggled some cattle, too. And yet, here we stand, Browncoats happily buying into the premise that a nuclear powered spaceship is paid for and maintained just like that. Author, Orsen Card Scott, said that Firefly was the most realistic SF show out there. But, I think really the realism was in part realistic characters reacting realistically in an often not quite real world. The idea that a single person can keep up after the maintenance on a space-going vessel, especially an old one prone to breaking is unrealistic in the highest order, even in projecting future developments from where we are now.

If Firefly were truly realistic, every one of the crew would be in jail or dead. The success of their criminal enterprises, and the fact that they never hurt or kill innocent people while committing crime is far more "Unrealistic" than Wash living through Serenity. Also, this is a crew of identified "cop-killers". In Ariel they broke into a highly secure core-world Alliance medical facility and stole a bunch of medicine. Mal, Zoe, and Wash were almost certainly caught on camera and identified. Jayne, Simon and River were actually apprehended. Jayne personally killed one of the Alliance Feds and I'm sure the half dozen other cops' deaths were hung on the Serenity crew, not on duly authorized, Blue Hands, Alliance officers. Think in Trash; when Saffron was hauled out of the trash container and the priceless Lassiter was gone, do you think she said "I don't know WHAT happened"? Or do you think it is more likely she identified every one of Serenity's crew as having stolen a priceless artifact from a high-ranking, obviously wealthy Alliance officer?!

Think the 'verse is realistic far as people coming back from horrendous wounds in the 'verse? Jayne got a 3/4 inch diameter spear through the calf and was walking around on it. But the ALL-TIME-WINNER? Has to be Dobson, He got shot in the head with a pistol that Mal used to DROP A HORSE IN IT'S TRACKS! And Joss brought him back in the comic book. So don't be givin' me this baloney that it's too unrealistic to bring Wash back! If we are going to pick and choose our un-realistic-ness, lets pick and choose what makes for the most entertaining story. I stand by my point that Wash's death didn't make the story any better, and that pretending to be "real" in such an "unrealistic" (but very fun) scenario isn't a benefit. I'll accept that some folks prefer the darker turn in storytelling of killing characters, but I stand by my assertion that in an already unreal world, better storytelling is more important than audience manipulation. I'm rarely entertained by writers who have to kill beloved characters to make a point. Toy Story III's ending had tears running down my cheeks because of insight and connections. It is a cheap shot for the writer to tell his audience, "Look at me! I can kill 'em all!" Things getting dull? Kill a character to stir the pot. I hope for more creativity from storytellers.

The better writer can carry his characters through troubles without seeming cliche or trite. Loss of dreams, lost opportunities, lost relationships and friendships; and not just loss, but CHANGE that doesn't go the way you expect, for both good and bad, provides rich fodder for drama. I'm not asking that the status quo rule, only that the writers find substantive issues and loss and change to craft stories around. I feel that killing a character is the cheap way out and destroys dynamics that build audience acceptance of a fictional world. I don't care for Joss' predilection for killing characters; totally ruined Dr. Horrible for me. I wanted to see Dr. Horrible turn his "evil" against phony do-gooders, not see a light-hearted romp turned into a THUD! morality tale. Killing off beloved characters in light-hearted action tales; It's not clever, it's not insightful or enlightening, it's not commercial. It satisfies a niche audience at the cost of greater acceptance. The interactions of the crew, the contrasts of their personalities and motivations, the clever back-and-forth of their dialog, the chemistry of the actors playing their roles are what made Firefly great. At no point does killing the characters make that better, unless you're trying to make "Terms of Endearment". Killing those beloved characters doesn't make Firefly more real OR better, only...less...

But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment. Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks. That is my definition, so I admit I don't look to tragedy for entertainment. Shakespeare is not in the same vein as Firefly as entertainment. I don't care for Serenity becoming a tragedy, when Firefly was NOT. I think Firefly did a better job of not having the consequences outweigh the dramatic return; i.e. the crew overcame peril at some cost, just not the cost of their lives. I'm pretty sure Inara is the only character who was never shot/wounded/tortured whatever. (Although she did get a pretty sharp backhand from bounty hunter Jubal Early...)

Actually, I viewed things not going "according the gorram plan" to be sort of the running gag of the show. Shoot, even the Lassiter heist didn't pay off like they hoped. Firefly appealed to a larger audience than the BDM Serenity, in part because its sensibilities were lighter at the behest of FOX. If FOX hadn't messed with the scheduling and if they hadn't allowed Joss to murder off his characters, I'd argue that Firefly would rank up there with Star Trek as long lasting and influential. So, in this Firefly/ Serenity collector's mind,
WASH LIVES!

pennausamike Wed May 09, 2012 12:37 pm

* Apparently, Gina Torres and I are on the same wavelength on this one;
On her reaction to Wash's death in the movie: |
"There was definitely a collective gasp across the nation when we all got the script and read it. I adored Alan and I adored him as Wash, as my pretend husband. I thought we were an amazing couple. In a way, it might hurt you to hear this, but since there is no sequel to Serenity it is a relief, because I can't imagine Zoe without him. I really can't."

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Saturday, February 9, 2013 3:59 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:

So what do I want? Wash back. ...

Apparently, Gina Torres and I are on the same wavelength on this one;
On her reaction to Wash's death in the movie: |
"There was definitely a collective gasp across the nation when we all got the script and read it. I adored Alan and I adored him as Wash, as my pretend husband. I thought we were an amazing couple."

www.etakooramnahsmech.com/?p=428

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Sunday, February 10, 2013 2:28 PM

REAVERFAN

Thanks, PENNAUSAMIKE. I totally agree. It wouldn't be hard to believe that they secreted Wash's body away, and had the funeral for him just to make people think he was really dead, when he's actually cryo-preserved until they can find a way to revive him with Alliance medical tricks.

After all, they live on a spaceship, dear! How I'd love to see that!

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Monday, February 11, 2013 6:26 AM

ZEEK

PENNAUSAMIKE, Wash's death makes sense for the exact reasons you state. If the members of the found family start building their own families then they move on and don't need Serenity anymore. With the death of Wash it leaves Zoe broken and she'll need the crew to give her something to cling to. By killing Wash it opens all sorts of doors for Zoe to walk through.

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Monday, February 11, 2013 7:33 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
SNIP
With the death of Wash it leaves Zoe broken
SNIP
By killing Wash it opens all sorts of doors for Zoe to walk through.

And if you find that entertaining, that's fine, for you.
I don't, and I don't believe it is a benefit for Firefly;
neither as a story nor as a commercial property looking to continue.

Some like Shakespeare, some don't.
Some like dark Serenity, some like lighter Firefly.

Mike

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Monday, February 11, 2013 9:35 AM

ZEEK

That's what Firefly is based on. The very first episode Mal gets his heart torn out when the Alliance surrenders. Every character is broken in one way or another. That's what makes the show what it is.

In the end it doesn't matter. It's all just speculation about something that's never going to happen.

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Monday, February 11, 2013 1:07 PM

BYTEMITE

I actually think Wash dying makes Zoe MORE likely to leave... But that's a story too.

I can see pros and cons of both options.

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Monday, February 11, 2013 2:52 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Anyone who is familiar with Buffy and/or Angel who still expected the entire Firefly crew to be around if the show lasted several years is delusional. It may have happened differently in an extended series, but sooner of later someone was going to die, or leave the ship (even if not permanently). That's what Joss does. He gets us to fall in love with characters, then he rips our heart out by offing them in various ways.

Unlike Zeek, I am one of those die-hards who thinks it is still possible we will get something in the way of a live action revival of Firefly. I would prefer it to be Joss' vision that propels the plot, not that of some fan who can't handle the loss.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Monday, February 11, 2013 3:27 PM

PENNAUSAMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
SNIP
Unlike Zeek, I am one of those die-hards who thinks it is still possible we will get something in the way of a live action revival of Firefly.
I would prefer it to be Joss' vision that propels the plot, not that of some fan who can't handle the loss.

At the Tenth Anniversary Reunion Special,
Whedon also shared what "Firefly" Season 2 would have looked like
and how it would have differed from the "Firefly" feature film "Serenity."

"It would've been littler. Most of the Reavers would've been off-screen ...
I don't think I would have killed anybody," Whedon told the audience,
causing Tudyk, whose character was killed off, to raise his hands in the air.
"I think we would've delved more into the Blue Sun conspiracy, which we had to drop.
And we would've learned about Book and about Inara. For some reason, that's the question that's going to make me cry."

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Monday, February 11, 2013 4:43 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I did say that things would probably have been different if the series had continued. Joss might not have killed off any of the main cast in Season Two, but what if it had gone five years (like Angel) or seven (like Buffy)? Do you still think we wouldn't have lost a beloved character in that time frame?

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Monday, February 11, 2013 10:51 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

If Firefly had managed more seasons and in that time our characters continued to face and survive it's dangers, the show would have lost it's gravitas. There are only so many times you can watch your hero's survive perilous battles before the premise of danger, becomes redundant or farcical. Much like the A-Team. After a while it was just a camp joke.

Without the genuine belief that the characters could die, the narrative would fall in on itself. The weight of Jayne being so fearful of the Reavers; makes them so much more terrifying! If you had three seasons of Jayne wetting himself every time the reavers are mentioned, yet each encounter with them results in no harm to the crew, then Jayne and his reaction become laughable and silly. Like Mr T and his fear of flying!

I realise many don't like that the possibility of 'Death' to the characters was a part of Firefly, and that's fair enough, but frankly that's what had you gripped in the first place!

SERENITY ended up making Jayne and his fear of the Reavers in Firefly, that much more significant as a consequence.

I can't recall which Angel it was but in one of the commentaries Joss mentions that part of his reason for killing off Fred was the he wanted to give Amy something different to act. Such whimsy eh!

I'm sure Firefly , had it lasted, would have broken our hearts in so many ways.

°...Well here I am.°

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:10 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
SNIP
Without the genuine belief that the characters could die,
the narrative would fall in on itself.
SNIP
I realise many don't like that the possibility of 'Death' to the characters was a part of Firefly,
and that's fair enough,
but frankly that's what had you gripped in the first place!

No, it's not.
I didn't watch Magnum PI in the hopes main characters would die,
I watched to see heroes emerge victorious from a struggle.

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
I'm sure Firefly , had it lasted, would have broken our hearts in so many ways.

Gee, whatta thrill.....
Hmmm, let's review;
I don't care for Buffy, Angel, Dr. Horrible or Cabin In the Woods;
I could tolerate Dollhouse, but really.....;
I enjoyed The Avengers but it didn't grip me;
but I love Firefly, and it wasn't in the hopes it would break my heart.

I'll finish up with quoting myself,

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Although there are fans who like the dark misery stuff,
the uplifting elements of Firefly/Serenity are what create an ENDURING fandom.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:42 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by pennausamike:

Quote:
No, it's not.
I didn't watch Magnum PI in the hopes main characters would die,
I watched to see heroes emerge victorious from a struggle.

Hey Pennausamike. And that's fair enough for you and I'm not trying to contradict what you like or why you like it. For me though it's maybe why I watched about a dozen Magnum's before I realised it was not a show I was going to follow.

Quote:

Gee, whatta thrill.....

Well to a certain extent yes. A thrill indeed. For the fear of failure adds to the success. (within the context of the show)

Quote:
Hmmm, let's review;
I don't care for Buffy, Angel, Dr. Horrible or Cabin In the Woods;
I could tolerate Dollhouse, but really.....;
I enjoyed The Avengers but it didn't grip me;
but I love Firefly, and it wasn't in the hopes it would break my heart.

Well OK. Cool. Again I don't wish to contradict what you enjoy or why. I understand why you can be happy with the more upbeat elements of TV. Nothing wrong in that. I like upbeat stuff too. Just not all the time.

Quote:

Although there are fans who like the dark misery stuff,
the uplifting elements of Firefly/Serenity are what create an ENDURING fandom.

To my mind I don't think you should compromise on quality for the sake of fandom.

°...Well here I am.°

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:30 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
but I love Firefly, and it wasn't in the hopes it would break my heart.

You, um, might want to adjust your expectations downwards. I know of at least one more main character slated to probably die on Firefly. And there's been potential foreshadowing for a couple others.

I'm sorry but Firefly was inevitably going to break hearts. Even if Joss kept Book and Wash alive (for longer). If characters dying ruins the show for you, maybe you should stick with fanfic.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:45 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
SNIP
To my mind I don't think you should compromise on quality for the sake of fandom.

Dark doesn't equal quality.
Not-dark doesn't equal not-quality.

Maintaining the character dynamics that make a show great IS quality.
Destroying those characters is not a guarantee of quality.

Labeling it "fannish" to think that Firefly is NOT made better
by destroying the Wash-Zoe dynamic,
is an attempt to diminish a legitimate sense of taste.
Shows like Star Trek or Magnum PI are not poor quality
because they don't kill off their main characters.
They succeed because they entertain their audiences with quality shows,
built on sustained character development.

Killing characters is not the only way to avoid
what Joss refers to as the trap of "reset TV".

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:08 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by pennausamike:

Quote:
Dark doesn't equal quality.
Not-dark doesn't equal not-quality.

Agreed

Quote:
Maintaining the character dynamics that make a show great IS quality.
Destroying those characters is not a guarantee of quality.

Disagree with the first part. And as for the second part, I'm not really sure what can guarantee quality? Neither device works if it's out of context.

Quote:
Labeling it "fannish" to think that Firefly is NOT made better
by destroying the Wash-Zoe dynamic,
is an attempt to diminish a legitimate sense of taste.

No. I happen to think keeping the fans happy all the while compromises the work. I didn't say it wasn't good. I just said it compromises the work. There's really no need to take a point to it's extremes. I happen to think Zoe and where she would go now Wash is dead, equally as interesting as where they may have gone had he remained alive. Neither one notion in inherently better than the other, but I do have a preference.

Quote:
Shows like Star Trek or Magnum PI are not poor quality
because they don't kill off their main characters.

Agreed. I didn't say it was. I was just implying that I would remain engaged with a show longer had characters developed. Whether that means one being killed off I don't know. That wasn't really an ingredient of Magnum. So it may have seemed out of place.

Quote:
They succeed because they entertain their audiences with quality shows,
built on sustained character development.

Isn't that a contradiction.

Quote:
Killing characters is not the only way to avoid
what Joss refers to as the trap of "reset TV".

Agreed. It's one of the ways. Of course there are many. However with a show such as Firefly where the characters are faced with dangers as part of the plot/character/series development , it's not unreasonable to conclude that a death among the regulars was always an inevitability. I am not challenging your distaste for that occurring, indeed I think I've highlighted often how I don't wish to contradict you on that, but I was simply saying that it's no surprise that this happened. And to my mind it's even less surprising given the content of the show.

°...Well here I am.°

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:41 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
“How would one unkill Wash?” - Adam Baldwin, Feb 1, 2013

My answer to this remains the same: Don't.

Death happens, in fiction (especially Joss's fiction) just like in life. The story goes on.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:45 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
If Firefly had managed more seasons and in that time our characters continued to face and survive it's dangers, the show would have lost it's gravitas. There are only so many times you can watch your hero's survive perilous battles before the premise of danger, becomes redundant or farcical. Much like the A-Team. After a while it was just a camp joke.

Yep. I don't for a second think that, had the show continued, everyone would have survived. Aside from Joss' track record - Alan has said Wash was slated to die eventually anyway, and of course we now know that Inara was terminal.

Im betting that by the end of this imaginary run, there might only be a couple of the original cast still onboard. Not to say it would have been all death - characters likely would have come and gone for other reasons (much like Book and Inara leaving Serenity), but Joss has never been a huge fan of the ongoing status-quo - which is one of the reasons I like his work so much.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:17 AM

BYTEMITE

I didn't call you fannish, many professionally written shows survive not killing off any characters. I just said that the only place you're going to find Firefly where none of the characters die is in fanfic, because this is a Whedon show. Main character death comes with the territory.

Your opinion about character development seems to be you should have an arc but that it's too delicate to upset without losing the spirit of the show. But I think writers sometimes HAVE to shake up the setting and the characters or else character growth might slow and become stagnant.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2013 1:45 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Shows like Star Trek....are not poor quality
because they don't kill off their main characters.

With the exception of the original series, I can think of quite a few character deaths that would have improved the shows.

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:03 AM

OLDGUY

What Would Mal do ?

Wash has a twin brother...yep...imagine the surprise when the crew first come face to face with him...not a jovial pilot, but a very different guy...worn by the evils and hardships of warn and struggles of an outworld, but with experiences a plenty in Alliance...making his living as a privateer with connections to alliance that make him a genuine hazard to the Serenity family but a huge potential for a sting to the Alliance arm that Mal just can't resist..even if it means pushing his closest crew into the pain of working with a familiar face.

so many possibilities....

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