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Originally posted by two:

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You’re right there are some places that Alliance does not seem to have a lot of influence and power, but the difference between those places and the US vs. Pakistan example is that the Alliance could very easily if it wanted to. Those places do not have standing armies.

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Are you absolutely, positively sure that the "Alliance" army on every planet is centrally and completely controlled by the one and only Parliament? Are all planets enslaved to the will of the Parliament and not really allies of the Alliance? When the Parliament says jump, every big and small population planet says how high?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I don't think there is a place in the Verse that the Alliance could not take near total control of, if it wanted to. For me that is what makes them scary. You can't beat them. In the BDM had the Operative not given the order at the end the whole crew would be dead. If the Parliament decides to go after River and Simon with full force and knows they are on Serenity, the entire crew will be caught or killed.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
We just don't see any evidence that any planet in the Verse is going to stand up against the Alliance, nor could. If a writer wants to add that it is up to them, but it adds entities to the Firefly Universe.

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Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
What would have happened to Simon had he and River been caught? River, I imagine would have been taken back to the academy, but what about Simon? Would he have been sent to jail. or something more severe...? Indeed is there any reference to the death penalty in the Verse ?

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Originally posted by two:
The Alliance is supposed to be one solid piece (or Peace) held together by armies.

The Alliance has 100 billion people to Earth's 7. There are 100 planets to Earth's 1. Our Earth is politically fractured, but the Alliance is MORE unified than our Earth? I doubt it.

The only 'Verse history we see is the partial history Mal and River see. That is a very incomplete, but we do know Earth history. And we know Joss Whedon didn't rewrite DNA to make humans better in 500 years.

The Unification War, call it a hot war, is over. You can't be certain it wasn't followed by a cold war. The Operative and the Hands of Blue men are assassins, which makes them appear to be future CIA. Cold warriors.

Why does the Alliance have assassins if it doesn't have external enemies? In Eastern Europe during the Cold war, it was secret police and courts, not roving assassins, that went after internal troublemakers like Simon and River.

Even the Operative said the Alliance has external enemies, without naming them: "Key members of Parliament. Key. The minds behind every diplomatic, military and covert operation in the galaxy, and you put them in a room with a psychic." The Alliance doesn't have diplomatic, military, covert operations against itself. There is more than just the mighty Parliament with power in the Verse.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Two thinks that Earth is still around and kicking, and the Alliance is keeping it secret.

Could be as you say and not going to Earth is an indication Earth is dead, or could be the crew hasn't found out about it.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Two thinks FTL drives or prototypes exist.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think the problem with retconning Earth's destruction is more an issue with climactic storytelling and use of antagonists, but to each their own.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
He just has to understand adding things like FTL drives is adding things to the Verse that we simple don't see.

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Originally posted by two:
I want to add a government of Beaumonde -- home of Fanty and Mingo, also the planet where Serenity was rebuilt -- that the Alliance will hesitate before pissing it off.

After the movie, there is nothing keeping the Alliance from killing Simon and River when the whim once more strikes the Parliament. There needs to be an Avenger moment when an Operative is told in deadly seriousness, “We might not be able to save the Tams, but you can be damn sure we will avenge them.” Without a little counterbalance to the Alliance, the Tams are dead, dead, dead.

Or they have to leave Serenity to keep from being blown out of the sky. If the Tams, Kaylee & Inara leave Serenity because it is missile target so long as the Tams are onboard, the show can't be called Firefly. Nobody wants the name change.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You can believe and add what you want.

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Originally posted by two:
You sound like my great-grandma, who can't imagine the Apollo moon landings happened. She wants more proof. A round trip to Luna would be enough to change her mind.

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Originally posted by two:The only Browncoats we know for sure disarmed after Serenity Valley were Mal and Zoe. As far as we know, other battles ended with cease fires. More war was possible. For a real example, see Korean War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

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Originally posted by two:If a Rim planet, such as Beaumonde, signed an armistice and has H-bombs, the Alliance would be very polite, especially if Beaumonde, before and after the Unification War, is like S Korea after the Korean War, an important trading partner. Anyone claiming that the central planets captured the Rim's H-bombs needs to explain how the Alliance did that magic trick without being nuked.

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Originally posted by two:Now imagine the Tams become national heroes of Beaumonde because of their trip to Miranda and the ass-whooping they gave the Alliance. Our heroes are heroes! The Alliance might think very carefully about killing the Tams. Killing might be the wrong move.

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If Earth is dead, it kills possible stories. Who wants to oversimplify the Verse? Where is the fun in that?

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Again the Korean War is not a good analogue because of the outside factors. The US Civil War is much better especially when you considered it was a big part of Joss's inspiration in writing Firefly.

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Originally posted by two:
20 years after the War, 1884, a Democrat was President. The Civil War analogy would have the Independents in control of some Rim planets in 4 years after War and controlling the Central Planets in 20.

Once the Civil War Reconstruction was over, the Northerner Army withdrew until the Civil Rights clashes of the next century. If the same happens on the Rim, the Alliance has already started withdrawing before the movie, Serenity.

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Originally posted by two:
If the Tams pick a planet to live on where the Alliance is withdrawing, the natives will be friendly. I see why the Alliance has Operatives assassins -- to surgically strike inside territory that the Alliance doesn't control after the Army withdraws. If they did control it, the Alliance would be using the local courts and police. See the history of Reconstruction, where Republicans took charge and then lost control.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
After the civil war we had a single country under a single federal government.

If the Alliance held the planet once they could do it again. In the end we only see a lack of direct Alliance control on the Rim planets that have little means to live let alone fend off the Alliance military.

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Originally posted by two:
A second Unification War is possible, but there wasn't a second Civil War in the US. While President Grant suppressed the KKK through the Force Acts, other paramilitary insurgents organized, including the White League in 1874, active in Louisiana; and the Red Shirts, active in Mississippi and the Carolinas. They used intimidation and outright attacks to run Republicans out of office and repress voting by blacks, leading to Rebels regaining power by the elections of the mid-to-late 1870s.

The Republicans lost the South for a century. The Civil War Reconstruction failed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era_of_the_United_States

If Joss Whedon followed Civil War history, the Browncoats would eventually control their own planets.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Gorram double post!

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Originally posted by two:
Wasn't the Unification War over slavery? (There are slaves in the 'Verse.)

I'm certain the American Civil War was over slavery. (Some argue it was the states' right to slavery. Close to the same thing.)

If I got the motivation for the Unification War correct, Joss Whedon made the Browncoats anti-slavery and the Alliance pro-slavery. Too bad the wrong side won. Topsy-turvy 'Verse.

Not a good place for Simon and River unless Joss Whedon makes the 'Verse story similar to Civil War Reconstruction -- after some years, the Republicans' Northern Army (Alliance) leaves because of the great expense and Southerners (Browncoats) vote the Republicans out of political office in the Southern states only. Freedom is restored by the ballot box, not war.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
With Doctor Mathias gone, and substantial knowledge from their
experiments so far, the Academy might continue to train psychic
assassins in a more humane way ... could be a doctor, even a
psychiatrist, who sees that humane training would help to insure
loyalty.

Don't think Joss would agree, though. No.

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Oonj, I think Joss Whedon was interested in revealing to us US GOV'T programs that had actually happened, have supposedly been scrapped, but which probably are still ongoing.

I direct you to the Family Jewels Report, MKULTRA, MKDELTA.

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Funding of behavior modification research on unwitting US citizens, including unscientific, non-consensual human experiments.(see also Project MKULTRA)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Jewels_%28Central_Intelligence_Age
ncy%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKDELTA

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MKDELTA, and its associated program MKULTRA, were mind control and interrogation operations run by the Central Intelligence Agency.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats

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The Men Who Stare at Goats (2004) is a book by Jon Ronson about the U.S. Army's exploration of New Age concepts and the potential military applications of the paranormal. The title refers to attempts to kill goats by staring at them. Research was carried out in part by Jon Ronson, but also by documentary filmmaker John Sergeant.

The book examines connections between military programs and psychological techniques being used for interrogation in the War on Terror. The book traces the evolution of these covert activities over the past three decades, and sees how they are alive today within U.S. Homeland Security and the Iraq War. It examines the use of the theme tune to Barney & Friends on Iraqi prisoners-of-war, the smuggling of a hundred de-bleated goats into the Special Forces command center at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and the connection between the U.S. military and the mass-suicide of members of the Heaven's Gate cult in San Diego.

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There are some very dark rabbit holes out there.

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Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
What would have happened to Simon had he and River been caught? River, I imagine would have been taken back to the academy, but what about Simon? Would he have been sent to jail. or something more severe...? Indeed is there any reference to the death penalty in the Verse ?

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