Leaves on the Wind #4 Discussion (Spoilers) by MUTT999

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Leaves on the Wind #4 Discussion (Spoilers)

POSTED BY: MUTT999
UPDATED: Thursday, May 8, 2014 10:49
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Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:21 AM

MUTT999

So, will our favorite bounty hunter land on some discarded mattresses, or something pointy?

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Thursday, May 1, 2014 1:39 PM

WISHIMAY

That's what you wanna know?

Ok. Neither. He's developed a relationship with "The little man who loved fire" and HE will save him...

As for the fifth in the series I got four words...

"Eta Korum Nas Meh"

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Thursday, May 1, 2014 4:47 PM

MUTT999

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
That's what you wanna know?

Well, kinda. He tends to survive tough situations, I'm hoping we find out one way or the other.

And who set them up? Should be very interesting.

Also, when River tells you to run, faster would be better!

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Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:26 PM

MOOSE

Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
As for the fifth in the series I got four words...

"Eta Korum Nas Meh"

lol

I can actually see that scene working out either way.

Option 1:
River: Run.
Mal:Eta Kooram Nah Smech!

They all fall asleep.
BDHs smile.
Weasly Scientist: Shit.

Option 2:
River: Run.
Jayne: Eta kooram nah smech!

Nothing happens. BDHs haul ass.
Jayne: It was worth a shot!

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Friday, May 2, 2014 10:27 AM

MUTT999

What did you guys think of Kaylee giving Mal the red button from Out of Gas? Was it just a good luck thing? A please come back in one piece gesture? Or did I miss something?

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Friday, May 2, 2014 2:11 PM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by MUTT999:

What did you guys think of Kaylee giving Mal the red button from Out of Gas? Was it just a good luck thing? A please come back in one piece gesture? Or did I miss something?

Whatever the reason seeing it made me smile.

Solid issue. Hoping that we have seen the last of Jubal, but I have a feeling like a bad penny he will keep turning up.

The most chilling part of the book was when River told the group to "run". That alone would have given me all reason I would need to turn tail.

_______________________________________________

Holding the line since December '02!

C.O. 76th Independent Battalion

http://76thbattalion.proboards.com

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 9:34 PM

GWEK

Is it just me, or was this issue a super-quick read? I feel like it went by so quick that there wasn't too much to comment on.

I have mixed feelings on the crew dropping Jubal from a height. One one hand, he DOES deserve to die -- but from a story sense, if you're just going to kill him that abruptly, why bother using him in the first place? His appearance in the comic has been a real disappointment.

Although the ambush was kind of cool, I felt the most "emotional" moment in the issue -- the only moment where I really went "Yes!" -- was when The Operative stayed behind and said "I'll hold them." Cool not only because he's stepping it up, but also because of the anticipated sword fight that will continue into next issue. :)

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 10:05 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Is it just me, or was this issue a super-quick read? I feel like it went by so quick that there wasn't too much to comment on.

I think the entire six issue run, if filmed, would be approximately the same length as a regular TV episode, with each issue being the segments between commercials.

As for commenting on the story, I'll reserve judgement until the end, but so far I'm underwhelmed. I could say that about all of the comics. It doesn't help that most of the interior art of the characters doesn't resemble the actors very much.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 11:01 AM

GWEK

I think you're right about the length -- and I think that's part of the problem with this arc. There's so very much filler and fluff.

To compare, THOSE LEFT BEHIND ran 4 issues. Speaking as someone who adapted it into an episode-length script (for a virtual series), I can tell you that it mapped almost exactly to an episode in length. This one, though, is 50% as long, with the same amount of substance (or perhaps less substance).

Honestly, most of the first issue and a half is just useless fluff and the seemingly quick end to Jubal (assuming there's no twist at the end) similarly declaws most of what was decent about the rest of issue 2 and the balance of issue 3.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 11:06 AM

WISHIMAY

I agree, when I picked it up at the store, it even seemed lighter and smaller.

But then that's what I hate about comics, too much art- too little story and detail and definition. Comics are like a tease every month. Too long of wait for too little info.

WHY CAN'T WE JUST HAVE SOME DAMN BOOKS???!
*sigh

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 12:20 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Serenity comics needs more planning ahead. I may be imagining it, but a season of Buffy, Angel & Faith comics seem to have generalized outlines of two years of episodes roughed out before the first episodes are written. The 25 episodes in a season of Buffy or Faith build on one another. That is not happening for Serenity comics.

Presumably the difference is that Buffy and Faith are growing and making more mature decisions, while Mal is still a big kid with a gun who goes from crisis to crisis. He does not do much thinking of his future, so why should his comic?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:48 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Serenity comics needs more planning ahead. I may be imagining it, but a season of Buffy, Angel & Faith comics seem to have generalized outlines of two years of episodes roughed out before the first episodes are written. The 25 episodes in a season of Buffy or Faith build on one another. That is not happening for Serenity comics.

Presumably the difference is that Buffy and Faith are growing and making more mature decisions, while Mal is still a big kid with a gun who goes from crisis to crisis. He does not do much thinking of his future, so why should his comic?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND or anyone, what is the next one after those left behind and better days?

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Monday, May 5, 2014 3:59 AM

MOOSE

Here's a list and synopsis of each of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_comics

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Monday, May 5, 2014 4:18 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Seems like the Alliance is pants shittingly stupid.

For one they place Zoe, a prisoner of value, in a prison with no walls and little order were she can easily get killed.

They leave a very important secret project in the same place it was found once, and can be gotten two by going through the door and shooting down a wall.

Oh, and since when does Vera blow up walls?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, May 5, 2014 4:20 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity

Quote:
Originally posted by Moose:
Here's a list and synopsis of each of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_comics

Thank you that get's it done.

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Monday, May 5, 2014 4:27 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Seems like the Alliance is pants shittingly stupid.

For one they place Zoe, a prisoner of value, in a prison with no walls and little order were she can easily get killed.

They leave a very important secret project in the same place it was found once, and can be gotten two by going through the door and shooting down a wall.

Oh, and since when does Vera blow up walls?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

In the movie Serenity Joss cut the" gag " hand grenade seen when Mal and Inara were fleeing the I forget (training) house, after Mal confronted the operative because he said it made the alliance look stupid. Therefore it diminished our understanding of Mal's capabilities to take them on.

Are you suggesting you too feel it is stupid to write them that incompetent?

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Monday, May 5, 2014 5:11 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Seems like the Alliance is pants shittingly stupid.

For one they place Zoe, a prisoner of value, in a prison with no walls and little order were she can easily get killed.

They leave a very important secret project in the same place it was found once, and can be gotten two by going through the door and shooting down a wall.

Oh, and since when does Vera blow up walls?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

In the movie Serenity Joss cut the" gag " hand grenade seen when Mal and Inara were fleeing the I forget (training) house, after Mal confronted the operative because he said it made the alliance look stupid. Therefore it diminished our understanding of Mal's capabilities to take them on.

Are you suggesting you too feel it is stupid to write them that incompetent?

Yes. It takes away from the Alliance being a scary threat. The scariest villains are the smart ones.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, May 5, 2014 6:02 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity

I agree.

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Thursday, May 8, 2014 8:01 AM

BYTEMITE

Personally, even though I still like it, I think that this series doesn't have ENOUGH filler and fluff. Look at a typical Firefly episode, it's loaded with little character moments and crew interactions and subplots that all add to the overall theme of the episode. These have a lot of scenes with Mal and Inara, I'll give you that, and we have some great moments where Bea snarks at Jayne, Jayne asks for forgiveness, and Inara clearly tries to fulfill Zoe's usual calming exposition role on the ship, but we don't really have a whole lot of other tangential character moments. Simon and Kaylee are still a couple, but we haven't even seen them have a couple conversation. Bea has developed as a character and lost her hero worship of Mal, but we don't get more than a few scenes and one or two lines establishing this. Lots of other moments we should be getting too.

The whole Jubal early thing could've been stretched out to a 50 page "episode" all on its on, and so could Emma's birth and Zoe's capture. Rather like how both Better Days and Those Left Behind took some simple plot concepts and a couple of end goals. As a result those two comics feel a lot more focused, a lot more like an episode.

Meanwhile, finding the operative, then going to rescue the academy kids and then going to save Zoe should be like the myth arc of an entire season. With dedicated episodes to both finding the operative ( and his backstory, introducing also the guy he's about to fight). There's a third of a season. Then the next third of the myth arc is gearing up to break into the academy and learning more about it and the people involved. Then a climactic episode with the students. Finding Zoe is then the falling action of the narrative arc for the season. Big season finale when they finally find her again and she's reunited with Emma.

Throw in a couple crime job filler episodes of them earning enough money to support the free students and Zoe operation, 2 or 3 episodes where one of the couples has to get out of some trouble (gotta feed the fans), an episode or two where they encounter an unrelated problem, and a few spotlight episodes for characters who haven't had much spotlight, and you have the makings for a strong season. 22 overall episodes, 8-10 episodes that could be considered filler just for more juicy crew interaction and insights and breather episodes with unrelated plots.

But this series moves along at a fairly blistering pace, it's very dense feeling because of that.

As for Zoe... I'm actually okay they stuck her in the prison they did. It reinforces that in the grand scheme of things, despite Miranda, the crew of Serenity just really isn't that important, whatever impressions that the first comic in the series might have left.

Zoe's treatment is basically like if the US ever got their hands on some Al Qaeda leadership responsible for 9-11, combined with parallels to Eric Snowden. They're PISSED about the losses of Alliance ships, civilians, and personnel, the crew probably has a death toll of a few thousand from siccing the Reavers on them. But have Al Qaeda or the crew really managed to destablize either government all that much? And now that it's clear that the Alliance has OTHER psychic supersoldiers besides River, even River is not that important. So yeah, while the Alliance might want them, it totally makes sense that they'd just toss Zoe into some Gitmo/Abu Ghraib analog.

Kaylee's reaction to Mal and Inara makes me wonder if the crew really didn't know about them.

I'm also wondering if Zoe will manage to escape the prison on her own. We're running out of time until the end of this series, there's a lot more to pack in here. And it'd be kinda entertainingly anti-climactic, feel kinda like a Firefly episode.

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Thursday, May 8, 2014 10:37 AM

GWEK

Respectfully, I say that I think you're mis-definining "filler and fluff."

I both story and character development, and even just character showcasing moments, have substance and carry weight. Filler and fluff does not. I'm talking here about stuff that adds to the page count without adding to the story.

I would argue that, with one or two exceptions, the entire first episode is just filler. Consider:

Pages 1-3 (of 24): Establish that nine months have passed (which will be equally well-established by Zoe giving birth). Establish the details of Miranda (which are not really necessary to the story being told), and establish that there's a new rebellion that looks to Mal. THAT will be repeated later in this issue, and isn't even needed there.

Pages 3-6 showcase the Alliance. What do we learn here? 1) The Alliance is still after the Crew. 2) The Crew has disappeared. 3) River knows other secrets. 4) There are other Operatives. 1 & 2 are intuitive and will be reiterated by the Crew later. #3 is something River herself repeats in a more compelling way later. #4... on one hand, it's NICE to foreshadow that Denon is an Operative, but it's pretty clear what he's all about when he shows up in Issue 4.

Pages 7-9 (I'll say this... so far, the issue follows the 8-act "mini-movie" structure, with 24 pages being broken into 3-page chunks) introduces Bea and shows us that the new resistance is kind of rabble. The fact that the new resistance is somewhat disorganized is INTERESTING -- but not necessarily interesting enough to merit a full page. It also seems at odds with the resources they later demonstrate. The 2-page part here with Jayne's cousin is of no substance. It's useless connective tissue that simply spoils the fact that Bea is looking for someone who can help her find Mal.

So, 3/8 of the way through the issue: We haven't seen the Crew yet. There's no really conflict, and most of the information we've gained either does not move the story forward or is repeated in a more compelling/character-centric way later.

Pages 10-11 break from the previous 3-page scenes to finally introduce the Crew. There are a few decent lines (the casual "You guys fight a lot" is my personal favorite), but this is mostly exposition to catch us up on what the crew has been up to -- and exposition of the worst kind, where characters tell each other things they already know just for the benefit of the audience. Frankly, it's just terrible writing. And for what? "We're hiding in the middle of nowhere." Honestly, given how poorly the scene is written, I would prefer just THAT. Okay, also, Inara's no longer a Companion.

Pages 12-13 are more of the same, but do give us our first moment of substance: Mal and Inara are a couple now. Also, Simon and Kalyee are still a couple. When we add River smuggling with pregnant Zoe, basically, everyone has spent the last nine months in bed.

pages 14-15 give us a nice Zoe moment with Wash's memory, but are quickly followed by 2 pages of absolute filler (16-17) as Zoe goes into labor.

Pages 18-19 introduce us to Emma, FINALLY introduce legitimate conflict (the Crew should be lying low, but Zoe needs medical attention), and Mal takes action. Also note that Simon reiterates almost everything we learned about the Crew's general state since page 10 with "I know we're supposed to by laying low... Mal?"

Pages 20-21 give us a ridiculous introduction of Jubal Early. I SUPPOSE it makes sense to introduce the character for people who might not know him, but 1) so far, he seems shoehorned into the story to begin with, and 2) this introducion is so riddled with writing flaws that I've already wasted too much time on it.

The issue wraps up with a similarly useless introduction of Jayne (pages 22-24), ending with the very surprising character revelation that he's greedy.

One thing that I think becomes abundantly clear in a close read is that, unlike brother Joss, Zack doesn't respect the audience's intelligence. Joss (and good writing) let the audience piece things together for themselves. Zack contstantly answers questions BEFORE they are asked.

Looking at this entire issue, there's maybe 3 pages that AREN'T filler. It's basically a waste of an issue that could have been used for better stuff. (As the series progresses, the ratio improves, but I would that that it's still more than half fluff at this point).

Let's say the issue started instead with the image of SERENITY floating in space. Then there's a SCREAM. That scream is actually Emma crying, and we cut to something similar to the 2 page spread that's currently pages 18-19.

That would have saved 21 pages, and what would we have lost? Other than stilted exposition and weak introductions, I think the ONLY scenes of substance are Zoe's vision of Wash and the reveal that Mal and Inara are a couple. So you throw those in on the way to the hospital, and we're still a good 18-19 pages ahead of the game. That could have been used for substance.

Sorry that got a little long. Not my original intention, but it's been bewing in me for months!

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Thursday, May 8, 2014 10:49 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:

Respectfully, I say that I think you're mis-definining "filler and fluff."

No, don't think so. And don't respectfully me. If you think I'm an idiot, then just call me one.

Filler and fluff is anything intended to please the fans of a character without a direct impact on the story and which doesn't further the plot.

Inara and Zoe having a conversation about "faking" in Trash and Zoe thinking it would be difficult to be a companion (with some implied mild contempt and judgement from Zoe) is filler. It is, however, INTERESTING.

Similarly, so is Jayne apologizing to Mal (and basically getting the cold shoulder), and so is Inara talking to Kaylee about why the Operative is on the ship when they don't trust him. Or whenever a character makes a self-referential comment about something that we'd already seen happen to them. These are all things that have already been established, and those conversations are not likely to be setting up anything plot-wise that will happen later. They're just there.

But they're necessary.

Breather moments, irrelevant information, unimportant interactions between characters, jokes, and other kinds of filler are all very useful storytelling tools that flesh out the setting and the world and the characters and provide emphasis as well as a buffer for the pacing. All stories should be a good 60-90 percent progression of plot, but a story loses it's sense of realism if it is always 100% plot focused, because in the real world, plot does not happen all the time. The storytelling medium allows us to cut to the chase, but one of the most common pitfalls of storytelling is when people try to rush it.

Quote:
NICE to foreshadow that Denon is an Operative, but it's pretty clear what he's all about when he shows up in Issue 4.

Ooh, I actually didn't even notice it was the same guy. Nicely spotted.

Quote:
The fact that the new resistance is somewhat disorganized is INTERESTING -- but not necessarily interesting enough to merit a full page. It also seems at odds with the resources they later demonstrate.

Eh, I've actually observed that disorganized groups with no idea how to even find their own hands in front of their faces aren't necessarily synonymous with not being able to get resources or backers.

You'd think some people around here would appreciate that the new Independents seem to be just as clueless and incompetent as the Alliance though. I definitely enjoyed that touch, it appealed to the heartless cynic in me.

Quote:
Looking at this entire issue, there's maybe 3 pages that AREN'T filler.

I don't think these issues were meant to be self-standing stories. Which admittedly might be a problem in of itself. But if I look at the very first issue as like the introduction of a movie with six acts, it makes a fine amount of sense to me that the main conflict is only revealed towards the end of the introduction and that the introduction is a lot of filler and fluff. That's actually right in keeping with standard storytelling plot progression.

Hell, the movie had them rob a bank and go to Beaumonde before Miranda was even mentioned. Yeah, the opening scene gives us the Operative... Which is why in the comic we're shown another Operative immediately after we see that report on the state of the verse (via loud mouthed and annoying cortex personalities and political pundits).

Look, Back to the Future. The CLOCK of story telling and pacing, right? We're introduced to the Time-Traveling DeLorean about ten minutes in. But before that's there's ten minutes slice-of-life about Marty derping around with guitars, then going to school, then his rather pathetic family, before he even heads out to the mall to meet with Doc Brown for a science experiment.

And after the DeLorean, what do we have? Probably a good ten more minutes of establishing that he's back in the past, including one probably unnecessary altercation with a farmer whose barn Marty crashed into and he's mistaken for an alien invader. The actual plot kicks off when Marty "saves" his dad from getting hit by a car, but OOPS, Marty just met his own mother instead of her meeting his dad and now he's disappearing from EXISTENCE. Now he has to fix the past AND get back to the future present! But the guy who bullies his dad is still a bully in the past and he's got his own ideas. How's Marty gonna DO THAT?

And that's just for establishing one character, the concept of time travel, 3-4 acquaintances, and an antagonist, living in an easily-relateable almost present. The Serenity movie, and these comics, have to establish a rough idea of the state of the verse, sum up previous relevant backstory, and introduce around a dozen characters (crew and plot important personnel).

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