I'm sure Joss read this and was a fan by 6ixStringJack

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I'm sure Joss read this and was a fan

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Friday, February 9, 2007 18:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2522
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Saturday, February 3, 2007 2:03 AM

Hey Everybody,

I got a rather middle-lengthed short story for ya'll to read. It's called "And Then There Were None", written by Eric Frank Russell all the way back in June of 1951. I don't want to tell you any direct details about it because it should be a complete suprise to you like it was me when I first read it.

I strongly recommend this story to any fan of Firefly. I read it probably 6 or 7 years ago. After after digging around on the internet for the book of short stories that featured it for about 2 hours I finally managed to find it. It's underlying theme fit very well with the topic of conversation we were having and since I hadn't read it for so long I had to give it another look.

I'm not even through with it now, but one part I just read that is a direct corrolation to Firefly forced me to post it for your enjoyment before I finished it. It's even better now that I'm older and I know a bit more about the world and, more importantly, I saw Firefly.

There are so many similarities to Firefly in this story it's insane.... even some direct references, or should I say, direct influences that were used in Firefly. I'm absolutely positive that Joss has read this story and it made a great impression on him.

Enjoy, I know I will, again.

http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.htm

Regards,
6SJ

P.S. I'm hoping the guy who is hosting this story doesn't mind me sharing the link with you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 3:54 AM

SUZFROMOZ

I enjoyed this story....but Id be interested to know which scenes you saw as so similar to firefly....

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 6:27 AM

LEADB

about half way thru the read. I suspect I read this 20 years ago, but as you can imagine the details are vague to me. I do see the correllaries, though. I'll comment further when I finish (but probably not today).

=====
http://signal.serenityfirefly.com/
...The 'verse just got bigger
Vote for Firefly at: http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html
====

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 3:30 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I know I've read it but it's been a long time. It's included in the SF Hall of Fame Volume 2A anthology, which I do not have at the moment cause I gave it to my son.

I hate reading long stuff on the computer, but I'll make an exception this time and get around to it soon. Bookmarked it for later.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 11:27 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

*****WARNING*********
STORY SPOILERS. THE ABOVE STORY IS REALLY GOOD AND YOU SHOULD GIVE IT A READ BEFORE YOU READ THE WHYS AND TRY TO FIGURE THEM OUT FOR YOURSELF..... OR NOT......

I just finished the story now. I didn't want to reply until I had read the entire thing again. The answer to your question isn't simple if the similarities to the show weren't apparent. It wasn't particular scenes so much as the general story itself that would seem to fit almost perfectly with the timeline and overall feel of the show. The underlying theme of "And Then There Were None", of course, was that Anarchy works. This isn't the direct message of Firefly in itself, but there are some very strong elements of that sentiment on the show. Certainly there were a great number of humans on many independant planets who didn't care none too much for the Alliance... hence the war. The "Gands" in the story simply chose the pasifist ways of Ghandi to passivly combat the meddling of the Alliance or "Terrans", as it were.

The thing that made me post immediately was the mention of the planet Persephone in the story:

‘On Persephone,’ informed Harrison, ‘a long-shanked Milik offered me a twenty-carat, blue-tinted, first-water diamond for my bike.’

Of course, on Persephone in the series, nobody would have that kind of wealth where one could give away a priceless diamond for a bicycle. This particular point in the story was that on one planet, what may be a rare and priceless artifact may be as common as sand on anoter. If that were the case, then it would be well worth it for one of the natives to trade a diamond the size of your fist for a bicycle, especially if the Persephonians had never seen a bike before. Maybe if we saw more firefly, we would have found that there is something that is found in great abundance on Persephone (or any of the other planets) which the crew picks up to trade on another distant planet somewhere else for a good deal of cash. Perhaps something with great medicinal value to a people who desperately need it?

I know I'm leaving a lot out here, in terms of direct examples because I had finished more then half the story before I read your question. I did manage to take a couple of notes while I finished up the story just to illustrate the extreme similarites.

1) When Harrison returns to the surface of the planet a second time and he and Gleed are unsuccessfully trying to press Jeff for information about their government, Jeff shows just how little he cares about their threats and how effective, even after 400 years of living without Earth influence, their anti-"Terran"/Alliance schooling and philosophy has been. For example, some of their dialogue:

Gleed (Terran Soldier): ‘When an Imperial Ambassador arrives it means that Terrans are here for keeps.’

Jeff (Gand Native): ‘Who says so?’

Gleed (Terran Soldier): ‘The Terran Empire says so. You’re part of it, aren’t you?’

Jeff (Gand Native): ‘No,’ said Jeff positively. ‘We are not part of anything, don’t want to be and don’t intend to be. What’s more, nobody’s going to make us part of anything.’

Gleed (Terran Soldier): Leaning on the counter, Gleed gazed absently at a large can of pork.’ Seeing that I’m out of uniform and not on duty, I sympathize with you though I still shouldn’t say it. I wouldn’t care myself to be taken over body and soul by a gang of other-world bureaucrats. But you folk are going to have a mighty tough time beating us off. That’s the way it is.’

One could easily imagine that before the Unification war had picked up full swing, both sides may very well have been diplomatic and carried on civil conversations with each other such as this. Especially among the lower ranked officers and soldiers with the natives. We never saw anything about what the colonies and Alliance life was like before the Unification war.

One could almost consider this story to be part of the Firefly timeline even, if they so desired, though I'm sure there are little details from the books and comics that I've never read which would probably not match up perfectly, but these little mismatches happen all the time in Star Wars and video game series, and the like. It's even said that during the Civil War here, soldiers from both sides did converse with each other from their encampments and if I recall correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) they were even known to have gone as far as playnig cards and other games with each other to alleviate boredom between battles, when they were forced to put away their human sides and don their battle masks.

2) When Harrison and Gleed are trying to figure out amongst themselves just what the natives mean when they call themselves "Gands", there's an intersting bit of dialogue about another quirky planet which the troopers had visited earlier in their space exploration/planet exploitation career:

Gleed (Terran Soldier): ‘Well, just what are Gands supposed to be?’

Harrison (Terran Engineer): ‘I don’t know. It’s a safe bet they’re some kind of fanatics. Terra exported one-track-minders by the millions around the time of the Great Explosion. Look at that crazy crowd on Hygeia, for instance.’

Gleed (Terran Soldier): ‘Ah, Hygeia. That was the only time I’ve ever strutted around wearing nothing but a dignified pose. I was looking forward to seeing Shelton and Bidworthy in their birthday suits. But those two heroes both lacked the guts.’ He chuckled to himself went on, ‘Those Hygeians think that complete nakedness creates real democracy, as distinct from our fake version. I’m far from sure that they’re wrong.’

This entire scene remineded me very much of the "Goose Juggling" dialogue on Firefly, in Our Mrs. Reynolds:

WASH: Well, she's led a sheltered life.

ZOE: Did you see the way she grabbed that glass from you?

WASH: Every planet's got its own weird customs. 'Bout a year before we met, I spent six weeks on a moon where the principal form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to God. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled.

3) A very interesting part was a bit later when the Bureaucrats were trying to figure out who this "Ghandi character" was. Terran/Alliance schooling, of course, would not teach their children about a leader in civil disobedience... this would go against everything they were trying to accomplish. Even the highest ranking officers needed to consult ancient tomes to solve this mystery:

The Ambassador: ‘Ah, here it is, nearly six hundred years back.’ The Ambassador ran a plump finger along the printed lines. ‘Gandhi, sometimes called Bapu, or Father. Citizen of Hindi. Politico-philosopher. Opposed authority by means of an ingenious system called Civil Disobedience. Last remnants disappeared with the Great Explosion but may still persist on some planet out of contact.’

This brings up two very similar aspects of the Firefly 'verse. The first being the idea that the Terran/Alliance truly has control over what their people know as truth and fiction. The story illustrates this with their complete lack of knowledge of Ghandi at even the higest government levels while the people of Gand lived their lives by his philosophy. What truths were completley hidden from the Alliance citizens on Firefly? I don't even need to find quotes, because I believe anyone knows where I'm going with this now. You Guessed it... PAX, Reaver's and their wonderful origins.

Yeah... Kinda trippy, ain't it?

The second similarity with Firefly here would be the timeline. Considering Ghandi lived from 1869-1948 this story would take place roughly around 2469-2548 A.D. according to the mention of "nearly 600 years back" in the above passage. Unification day on Firefly is supposed to be around late May of 2511, according to this timeline:

http://www.mts.net/~arphaxad/firefly.html

The exact date of Unification day may have been mentioned on the show. I'm not sure, but I have faith that the above timeline is accurate considering the insane amount of research that went into it.

4) Now, I must admit that the ability to travel at light speeds in the story is different than Firefly... thus changing certain aspects of the story. Remember, I'm not saying that this story was copied, I'm just illustrating influences here and why I'm confident that Joss has read this at least once at one time or another in his life. Probably the biggest difference between the two is that the planets at the extreme edges of where the settlers landed are only reachable by ships that travel at light speed, nearly making it impossible for an entire fleet to launch a full out attack on an insubordinate planet. As I remember it on Firefly, the amount of planets was much smaller than the 1,600 some planets in the story, due to their flight restrictions, although, who's to say what went on light years away? perhaps the Alliance had sent others out which we never heard about to galaxies that were light years away. It's certainly feesable... at least with my limited knowledge of the Firefly 'verse.

Take the following quote from the story:

Grayder to Ambassador: ‘I wouldn’t presume to advise you what to do for the best,’ Grayder said. ‘All I know is this: we carry troops and armaments for any protective or policing purposes that might be necessary here. But we cannot use them offensively against the Gands because they have provided no real excuse for doing so, also because we cannot influence a government that doesn’t exist, and also because our full strength isn’t enough to crush a population numbering many millions. We’d need an armada to make an impression upon this world. Even then we’d be fighting at the extreme limit of our reach and the reward of victory would be an area of destruction not worth having.’

I would expect a similar dialogue if the same circumstances were to occur within the Firefly 'verse, whether it be a planet light years away, if they had that capability and we just didn't learn of it yet, or possibly from a unification attempt that happend much earlier than Unification day, made by a younger less corrupt and more inexperienced Alliance.

5) Another aspect of Firefly, which wasn't really visited in its breif run was the probability that even their own soldiers and people questioned the rightness of what they were a part of, no matter how much teaching they had otherwise. Sure, you can use money and power and propoganda to your hearts content to corall a populace, but you're never really able to get inside that tiny space between their ears and destroy their consience.

In "And Then There Were None" this point is very obvious, because the entire theme was built around this concept. One particular statement made by Harrison to Gleed during their conversation about why they call themselves "Gands" it think sums it up pretty much nicely:

Harrison: ‘The creation of an empire has also created a cockeyed proposition,’ meditated Harrison. ‘Namely, that Terra is always right while more than sixteen hundred planets are invariably wrong. Everyone is out of step but Terra.’

I can actually only think of a single example of attempted insubordination of an Alliance member on Firefly, but they didn't have the luxury of saying no:

OFFICER: What's the fuss?

ENSIGN: All network alert. Cargo theft. Medical shipment lifted off a train in the Georgia System, en route to Paradiso.

OFFICER: Two crates of Pasceline D. Right. Get you a tidy fortune on the black market.

ENSIGN: Paradiso's a mining community, sir. Most there are afflicted with Bowden's Disease. The miners pass it on to their children.

OFFICER: And yet they insist on breeding...
(then)
Tag it received and bounce it back. Locals can deal with it.

ENSIGN: Sir, there is a regiment holding in Paradiso. They were on the train, headed to the installation.

OFFICER
Then get 'em back on that train and get it moving. Who's holding them there?

ENSIGN: Sir, the Sheriff requested we deploy a few to help him inves---

OFFICER: Those are Federal Marshals, not local narcotic hounds. They have better things to do. And so do we.

The Ensign nods as the Officer moves off.

So..... there they are. My reasons why I'm 100% confident that Joss read this story and was influenced by it.

Hope the Joss worshipers don't come out and slam me here. I really like the way he thinks and I'm glad he was able to get the messages out that he did in the form of a TV show. I think the message Firefly stood for was not very Current-Administration-Friendly, and that's why it was cancelled in the first place. I'm not accusing Joss of plagerism... far from it. If anybody has read any of the threads on piracy, which I'm always a part of, I am a firm believer that not a single one of us has a single original thought and this just fits in my theory. If we allow them to copyright everything down to our speech, somebody could have spoken up and said that Firefly was a direct ripoff of this story, and depending on the judge, the jury, the lawyers and just how far we let them take this copyright garbage, we just might not have had the few great episodes we did get, and I'm quite certain that even if the show got under the radar, somebody could have given them a battle before the BDM was made. I think considering todays attitudes towards copyright violation, this could certainly have been the case.

Just ask George Harrison.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 4:18 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

So did anybody read it? The story is probably shorter than my last post.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 11:23 PM

SUZFROMOZ

I read it straight away, Id finished it when I posted. I liked the story a lot. Thanks for sharing your ideas. I can see where you are going with the comparison of Terra and the alliance. But none of the other aspects of either society (either story) seem similar to me. There are a few 'ifs' in your list of comparisons. I suppose I expected some similarities between the main characters, and their approaches to things, but I dont think our BDH's, fighting for that freedom etc would have liked the Gand's way of doing things. I dont think Mal (or Zoe or Simon for that matter) would be comfortable with the Gand's methods - no one taking orders, passive resistance etc

It was interesting thinking about it though, rather than just reading it stand alone. You have certainly put a lot of thought into it...

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 11:44 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Hi Suz,

I certainly wasn't comparing the BDH's to the Gands. The main characters themselves are very different from the show. Are their some similarities? I believe so. I think there is probably a lot of Gand in Jayne and a good deal with Mal. Their circumstances were different though and in order to be practical (because of outside influences) Anarchy just wouldn't work for them as it would the Gands who had the luxury of living undisturbed with their beliefs and ideals for 400 years.

Of course I have some if's in there to bridge gaps and to make comparisons. If the "if's" weren't needed than that would only be because Firefly was an undeniable plagurism of this story and I've never said that it was. Joss has a wonderful gift and he gave life to some of the most real characters I've ever had the enjoyment of flying with. Personally, I think Firefly is much better than "And Then There Were None", although I found it a very enjoyable story. But I am certain that Joss read it... this little story written back in 1951 and maybe 15-25(?) years later came up with a way to make it one of the greatest stories ever told.

"ATTWN" isnt' for everybody. It's for Anarchists and Anti-Establishment people. It's for hippies. It's for people who feel their being pushed around just a little too much. This sense of being pushed around too much is what drew me to Firefly so much in the first place. I realize that Joss, with his unique ability has used his skills to bring people from many different backgrounds together because he has elements to his stories that appeal to many different natures. There was no real love story in "ATTWN"... though something had been alluded to. Not a very wide range of interesting characters. Not really much of a physical battle either, to speak of, though I would argue that the Gands committed psychological genocide on the Terran's way of thinking.

I believe that the Gands did have a lot of similarities with any of the original Browncoats, before and after the war. They both shared the sentiment that they wanted to live life the way they knew it, without outside influence coming in and making them conform to their ways. If anything, the Gands could be seen as an extreme exaggeration of the anti Alliance sentiment in Firefly, or the BDH's and other Browncoats could be viewed as toned down versions of the Gands.

The other similarities were, of course, much more blatent. Persophne the planet, the fact that both stories took place at the exact same time (within 20 or so years from each other), characters in both stories talking about quirks on other colonized planets, the Alliance/Terran Empire sending out colonists only to later absorb them when their power grew enough to do so. There are just so many other similarities ranging from subtle to blatant.

I'm glad you gave it a read and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I thought this thread would be more popular than it was. Either people don't like reading anymore, or they're just scared off by my long-windedness.

Keep Flyin'

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 2:59 AM

CERES

Like ecgordon I don't like reading long articles online, but I will for this. We might need some more time to reply is all

You can question the meaning of life on a floaty
island of your own for a while.

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 4:24 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Interesting so far. Can't wait to finish it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Friday, February 9, 2007 3:39 AM

CERES

I can also see the similarities between the Terran Empire and the Alliance, but I'm not so sure about some of the other references. Persephone wouldn't be an unusual name for a planet especially as the planets of our own solar system are named after gods and goddesses.

I did see the connection in 'Captain Grayder glanced up in surprise. ‘If you’re going to start answering questions before they’ve been asked, you’d better see the medic. Or have we a telepath on board?’

Joss did say that 'The Killer Angels' had inspired him to write Firefly but I think authors must pick up inspiration from everything they read so there's no saying this story wasn't one of them.

.........................................

You can question the meaning of life on a floaty
island of your own for a while.

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Friday, February 9, 2007 4:11 PM

ZOID

I read "And Then There Were None", and thanks for the link. It's a quaint example of early(ish) sci-fi. It took about an hour to read while interrupted by Life's little annoyances, and I'm a slow, ahem, methodical reader -- so others should not be afraid of its length.

There are no space battles. It doesn't lean heavily on fantastic mechanical devices or ray guns. There are no "sp'whores", or at least there were none mentioned and likewise no mention of how one might go about "planting an ob" on one. So, if that defines sci-fi for you, you'll be greatly disappointed.

Rather, the story does what science fiction should do, according to my lights: It places human beings in an unfamiliar surroundings -- an extraterrestrial setting, in this case -- and then illustrates what is common amongst all of us, our essential humanity, placed in sharp contrast by means of the alien environment. ATTWN accomplishes this goal.

...But, I think the similarity to Firefly ends there. Another aspect of proper science fiction that surfaces in virtually every qualifying story is an overriding dissatisfaction with the status quo of our current society. It is redundant to refer to a work of science fiction as 'rebellious'. If it is not rebellious against much if not all of our current society, then it is only a romantic opera with spaceships.

...Even Star Trek, derided by some as too Utopian -- myself included, in the main -- was and remains a rebellious statement against class/caste, sexism and racism. It is also most notably socialistic in its economics, which was and remains counter to our culture's capitalism.

So, to say that Joss must have read and by implication plagiarized this particular short story -- even in some small detail -- demonstrates a very limited knowledge of the true nature of science fiction as a genre. Said true nature exposed, again, by placing common people in uncommon situations, similar to or juxtaposed against our current socioeconomic environment. By this device, the author delves into what is essential about being human...And in the process gets to take the mickey out of whatever intrinsically baseless, arbitrary rules our society imposes upon us, which we follow blindly from habit and upbringing...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I highly recommend reading the following: http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/peasant.asp. Of course, the Python boys must've read ATTWN, and then JW watched the BBC when he was a lad, and the stone soup just keeps gathering legumes as it rolls along... And don't worry, y'all, the link is an excerpt that won't take more than five minutes to read.
_________________________________________________

"You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!!" -Man, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, February 9, 2007 4:37 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I highly recommend reading the following: http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/peasant.asp. Of course, the Python boys must've read ATTWN, and then JW watched the BBC when he was a lad, and the stone soup just keeps gathering legumes as it rolls along... And don't worry, y'all, the link is an excerpt that won't take more than five minutes to read.

Well, I think it's very likely that it did happen that way not having even read the link yet. I never accused Joss of plagerism. If anything I said if Joss was influenced by this story he made it so much better than it was originally and made it accessable to people other than those who live in their parents basement and reek of patchouli. I just mentioned that if copyright laws were the way the big guys want them (ya know, the ones that closed down BlueSunShirts.com and terrorized 11th Hour) that we may never have seen Firefly in the first place because the original author would easily be able to make a pretty convincing case that it was plagerised. This observation being based on Bright Tunes Music's lawsuit against George Harrison over his song "My Sweet Lord" sounding similar to "He's So Fine".

Short Story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He%27s_So_Fine
Long Story: http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

It was a rediculous lawsuit, especially considering all hip-hop does today is sample classic rock and funk songs, and even earlier hip-hop songs, but because the labels own all the songs now there aren't any lawsuits. "My Sweet Lord" and "He's so Fine" have nothing to do with each other lyrically and don't sound none to much like each other either, but there was just that little bit that made them similar enough to an idiot judge's ear that he made George Harrison pay over half a million dollars for plagerism.

I'm not trying to argue here, but can you honestly tell me that the similarities, such as the nearly identical timeline, and the discussion of the quirks of other colonized/terraformed planets don't exist here?

I'll check that link out. Thanks.

Ha... Python Boys.... I didn't even get what er.. .nevermind. Monty Python kicks ass! Most of my friends hate them, but they're a bunch of schumcks.

Point taken though Zoid. Influence is all around us. I still don't think any of us alive today have had an original thought. All the more reason to tell the major companies to shove the copyrights up thier collective asses.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, February 9, 2007 5:36 PM

ZOID

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I highly recommend reading the following: http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/peasant.asp. Of course, the Python boys must've read ATTWN, and then JW watched the BBC when he was a lad, and the stone soup just keeps gathering legumes as it rolls along... And don't worry, y'all, the link is an excerpt that won't take more than five minutes to read.

Well, I think it's very likely that it did happen that way not having even read the link yet. I never accused Joss of plagerism. If anything I said if Joss was influenced by this story he made it so much better than it was originally and made it accessable to people other than those who live in their parents basement and reek of patchouli. I just mentioned that if copyright laws were the way the big guys want them (ya know, the ones that closed down BlueSunShirts.com and terrorized 11th Hour) that we may never have seen Firefly in the first place because the original author would easily be able to make a pretty convincing case that it was plagerised. This observation being based on Bright Tunes Music's lawsuit against George Harrison over his song "My Sweet Lord" sounding similar to "He's So Fine".

Short Story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He%27s_So_Fine
Long Story: http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

It was a rediculous lawsuit, especially considering all hip-hop does today is sample classic rock and funk songs, and even earlier hip-hop songs, but because the labels own all the songs now there aren't any lawsuits. "My Sweet Lord" and "He's so Fine" have nothing to do with each other lyrically and don't sound none to much like each other either, but there was just that little bit that made them similar enough to an idiot judge's ear that he made George Harrison pay over half a million dollars for plagerism.

I'm not trying to argue here, but can you honestly tell me that the similarities, such as the nearly identical timeline, and the discussion of the quirks of other colonized/terraformed planets don't exist here?

I'll check that link out. Thanks.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

The similarities, to my comprehension, are strictly coincidental. The name Persephone is, as others have pointed out, from Greek mythology and those names (along with Roman equivalents) are commonly used in astronomy. The similarity ends with the planet's names.

What makes the timeline so significant? One story places the setting 500 years in the future, the other approximately 600 years in the future...serendipity.

As to the Alliance/Terra, I'll stand on my previous assertion that science fiction is rebellious by nature. To my eye, ATTWN was more of a celebratory piece -- clearly written by a Brit, based upon telltale spelling and usage -- of Ghandi's philosophy of peaceful non-cooperation with a hostile alien government (i.e., British rule in India). The parallels to the British Empire's refusal to shoot people who weren't shooting at them first, and their inability to wage war in India in any case due to prohibitively long command and supply lines, were obvious as well.

Joss' inspiration for Firefly's characters and their motivation is clearly the American Civil War Era Southerners, most of whom fought -- unpeacefully -- in order to end unfair legislation (particularly tariffs) levied upon them by the Northern-dominated federal government. Google 'states rights' for more... Similarly, Mal and his comrades fought in the Unification War to avoid being sucked into a conglomeration of planet-states against their will, and to the detriment of their own local-planet autonomy. They wished to be "Independent" planets.

...But to make peace, I will grant that Joss may have read this particular short story, and may have been deeply impressed with it, psychologically speaking. I just am not nearly as convinced as you are that Joss must have read it, neither that he was necessarily a fan, as you presupposed in the thread title...

Again, I did enjoy the read, and thanks very much for the link.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
"My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine" are the titles and choruses of these two pieces of music. The musical notes played/sung during these choruses are identical. In addition, the backup vocals sung -- "Shoo-de-lang, shoo-de-lang, de-lang" in one case and "Hari Krishna, Krishna-Krishna, (et cetera)" in the other -- are sung on the same beats, in the same notes, and with the same phrasing in both songs. ...Not saying George should've been lumbered with a multi-million pound judgment -- because it may have been unintentional -- but the similarities in that case are more than just passing. Somebody (read: a lawyer) in Harrison's organization should've caught this error before it became a donnybrook...

Copyright for songs and written works have a statute of limitations, too. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's 20 years, unless renewed by the original artist/owner (for a premium price). ZZ Top's "Recycler" album contained very-near knockoffs of a lot of their own tunes that were at the time pushing 20 years since their original publication. By issuing an album of their own almost 20-year old songs, with new lyrics and minor musical alterations,they couldn't be held in infringement of their own copyright. Therefore, these were considered 'original' works (unless they sued themselves), and reset the clock at zero on another 20 years for the original compositions as well: Anything that remotely resembled the old works would also resemble the new songs, which were protected by a fresh 20-year copyright, without having to go through the expense of re-buying the original copyrights... Hence the album's name, "Recycler". Just a tidbit, apropos perhaps of a 56-year old short story...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, February 9, 2007 6:31 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I agree that Sci-Fi is rebellious in nature. THe beauty of it is that you can give whatever commentary about humans and society you want to give and hide it under the masks of alien species so it can slip past censorship and even our own minds oftentimes and over the course of a generation or two can really help reshape the way people think, like your Star Trek example. I think that's why Firefly failed in the first place. Somebody up there didn't want it to succeed. Look what it's done to us Browncoats here. I wouldn't imagine that after all of the money and resources dumped into our educational system to get us all thinking alike, staying within the lines and doing what we're told, they would want us to watch a show that could be considered so subversive to those ideas and appealing to a massive amount of peolpe at the same time.... at least that's what I attribute the lack of advertizing and playing the episodes completly out of order to. Pure sabotage.

I don't believe in coincidence, so I can't go along with your point of view on this. I do respect your opinion though and recognize that you are more than entitled to it. Of course if Joss were consciously using ATTWN as a blueprint for Firefly, he wouldn't have even used Persephone as a planet, just to avoid a "club you over the head" type similarity. The subconscious, on the other hand, is a pretty funny thing... it never forgets, and it tends to completely bypass the conscious thought process very often. You may be very well right about Persophne being commonly used. I myself had never heard it used before these two stories and until it was mentioned here I wasn't even aware that it was a name of a God. I'm not aware of any other Gods names used either in ATTWN or Firefly, but then again I'm not very well read on the more obscure gods and I have only watched Firefly once so I'm sure I missed a lot and I could be dead wrong about that.

The timeline seems very significant to me. The earth people sent out people to colonize other planets at nearly the same time and then the Government went out to absorb the colonies into their own at roughtly the same time. The timelines weren't 500 and 600 years in the future, but took place within about 20 or 30 years within each other and it is very likely at almost the exact same time. (I laid it out above).

I like your input about it being a celebratory piece. I'm not as well read on my history as I should be and this could very well be how it went down. In my mind, I thought of some pre-60's hippie in America writing it, but yours seems more plausable. I'm not even sure if there were any "hippies" in the late 40's early 50's.

I don't argue with you at all about the Civil war as an influence and the fact that Mal and Zoe and others took a very militaristic approch as rebellion as opposed to squatting. I don't even think this matters here and definately wasn't part of my arguement. I think this may be where our misunderstanding comes from. How any of the anti-gand/anti-alliance went about fighting is completely irrelivant in my stance. I was merely stating that the situation, the playing field if you will, is almost identical in both stories. How the people interacted from there on in is the difference and why, ultimately, Firefly is a much more engaging and interesting story. This also is Joss's gift. His ability to make characters so real that we feel like we've known them all of our lives and what makes it so hard for us when he decides to go and kill them off.

As far as musical copyrights go, the Beatles earliest songs, including "Love Me Do" and "I Want To Hold Your Hand" don't become free domain until 2012 and 2013.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1747859/posts

They (recording industry) are trying to extend that copyright limit of course.

As far as written work is concerned, "In most of the world the default length of copyright for many works is either life of the author plus 50 or 70 years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#How_long_copyright_lasts

Given that info, the author (who I believe is dead) or his family or publishing company still have plenty of time to cause a ruckus if they so desired. I do know that there have also been moves by the powers that be to make copyrights on written works "infinite minus one day", which is essentially forever.

P Diddy used "I'll Be Watching You" for his song "Missing You" well within even that 20 year timeframe you mentioned. When you hold all the cards (evil Record Labels), you can bend and break all the rules to your liking whenever it suits you. Music is pretty much all about the bottom line now. Maybe it always was.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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