Wrong ship? by Solon

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Wrong ship?

POSTED BY: SOLON
UPDATED: Sunday, June 20, 2004 04:46
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VIEWED: 5488
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Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:33 PM

This post is directly about a small line near the end of the two-hour premire, and indirectly about major plot and character points of the episode and really the entire series. If you haven't seen it all yet, steer clear or continue at your discretion

Select to view spoiler:

When Book is "confessing" to Inara, at the end of the piece, after he lists all that he's done in the short time since he left the abbey, which I'm not going to try to quote from memory now, he says mournfully and somewhat searchingly, "I think I might be on the wrong ship." There is a pained or fearful expression on his face that in hindsight I find especially moving.

When I first saw this, I took it entirely in the context of the episode. He feels guilty over what he's done in the immediate past; His complicity in the death of the lawman.

Working from what this episode reaveals about his special skills, and the rest of the series implies about Book's almost definately checkered past, and this brief exchange becomes much more charged and interesting.

Book almost certainly entered the priesthood, at least in some way, to leave behind a part of his past that he could no longer carry or to escape a part of himself that he no longer wanted to deal with. I believe that the look of pain on his face is connected to a conviction that continuing with these people, on this ship, may reawaken either or both. He fears becoming something, or rebecoming something, unpriestly that he thought he'd buried in his past. He worries that traveling with these people may cause his recidivism into whatever it is that defined him before he took on his current lifestyle. The reflexive way in which he took out the Federal agent, and the way he acted to safeguard him afterward certainly lend credence to this interpretation. Whether it's a valid one or just me overinterpreting a fairly stand-alone, self-contained scene, I still found it an oddly touching moment.

More than any other crewmember or passenger on the ship, I see Book as actively seeking personal redemption. The story for the rest may be one of, recovering what they've lost or what's been taken from them, scraping by, making ends meet, or searching for love, personal enrichment, or whatever it is that that particular character is searching for. Looking at Book through the lens of the entire series so far however, I see a journey of penance, a search for forgiveness.

Not knowing what, if anything, he's done only makes his quest more interesting and sympathetic.

"Perhaps you are exactly where you're supposed to be."

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Wednesday, June 16, 2004 10:15 PM

KOHAN

I agree with you, I think there's definitely something about that Serenity and it's crew that reminds Book of a dark past, and he fears that that part of him might be awaken if he stays on board for too long.

We know from SAFE that Book's past has some connections with the Alliance, and that his past identity still demands somewhat of a repect by the Alliance.

Also, in ARIEL it said that he went back to the monastery while Inara went to do her annual check-up. I wonder what that's all about? Simply just a time of repentance? a temporary get away? or...?

hmm... I wonder....

"You know, they say mercy is the mark of a great man.

Guess I'm just a good man.

Well, I'm all right. "

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 1:16 AM

FIREFLEW

Quote:
Originally posted by Kohan:

We know from SHINDIG that Book's past has some connections with the Alliance, and that his past identity still demands somewhat of a repect by the Alliance.

"Safe" it was from, not "Shindig".

But yes, I can definitely see this as being a plausible theory.

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 4:35 AM

BADGERSHAT

... I've often wondered if wrong ship" meant exactly that--he had orders, and got on the wrong gorram ship... like, perhaps he was SUPPOSED to get on the other guy's ship, instead (they guy he first said "I never married" to).

Maybe, the fear is not so much an existential or spiritual one, but a "Oh crap, I screwed up my orders and now I'm gonna get my ass kicked by the folks in charge..."

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:29 AM

SKYDANCE

Alternatively, his "orders" might have been to infiltrate a smuggling ring (any smuggler he could find) and map it out for an eventual bust. Some of our recent theories indicate the produce would appeal to a smuggler.

By the end of the pilot, however, he's realized that these are good, honorable people, and that he's been forced to "attack" his side of the law in the process of doing the right thing.

And, he likes this crew. He's family. How is he going to turn them in? I think maybe I got on the wrong ship ....

I don't believe it, but someone suggested the theory, and there's my perspective on how it would play out. I really think he's on a journey to test his faith, and do good in the world. Being a man of action, he couldn't just stay locked away in a monastery his whole life. He had to gain spirituality there, and then take it out into the world.

I absolutely love the theory that he's General Wilkins, in hiding.

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 8:37 AM

CAPTAINCDC

A very plausible theory Solon, we'll see which way Joss decides to go in the BDM.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:11 AM

XARR

Since we're speaking of Book, I have a question. It may be nothing, but then... it may be something...

I was watching OiS the other night(or trying to anyway, my DVD player is on the fritz) and found myself wondering about something he "said".

When River is wandering through the ship, listening in on everyone's thoughts, what was it that Book was thinking? I can't remember his exact words but it didn't strike me as particularly priest-like. As I recall, it was quite hostile.

Perhaps this "narrower path" he's on is leading to some serious pent up hostility.

On a side note about OiS, River heard a thought from every crew member except one, as I recall. I may have missed it due to my flaky DVD player, but I don't remember hearing anything from Kaylee. Could that mean anything? I can't imagine what it could possibly mean, but I don't think Joss writes(or doesn't write) a single second of that show that doesn't have some deeper meaning.

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:39 AM

KOHAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fireflew:

"Safe" it was from, not "Shindig".

dammit flew... you made me forget my line

yeah, thanks for the correction, something about late at night that makes me get my episodes all mixed up.

------------------------------------------------
"You know, they say mercy is the mark of a great man.

Guess I'm just a good man.

Well, I'm all right. "

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:40 AM

STATIC

We've discussed the "Revelations" in OiS before. . .and I think we all agreed on why River didn't 'read' anything from Kaylee.

In "Ariel", Simon explains to Jayne that the part of her brain that allows her to suppress fear, anxiety or guilt has been removed. When she is reading from everyone in OiS, we see revelations that everyone would sort of 'push back' in order to avoid guilt. For Simon, he probably thinks once in awhile about the life he left behind, and then immediately supresses such thoughts because he feels so guilty for even THINKING those things. For Jayne, he feels intense guilt for betraying them on Ariel. For Book, the 'revelation' he offers is, we believe, a reference to a violent past that he is attempting to atone for by joining the priesthood, etc, etc.

Why does River not 'read' from Kaylee? Because Kaylee is the single most honest, genuine, up-front person on Serenity, and quite possibly, the whole 'Verse. With Kaylee, what you see is what you get. She doesn't supress anything, nor does she ever really tend to feel much guilt for anything. Ergo, River didn't have anything to 'read'.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:00 AM

RIVERGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
We've discussed the "Revelations" in OiS before. . .and I think we all agreed on why River didn't 'read' anything from Kaylee.
B]

when River FIRST met Mal--she said BAD

I tend to think she read him then as a independent

wonder what she would read now

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:12 AM

STATIC

No no no no no no. . .

She didn't 'read' him as 'bad.'

She said. . .

"Mal. . .bad. . .in the latin."

Mal is the latin word for bad.

I think she was simply making a salient observation.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:18 AM

XARR

Wow, Static. That makes a whole ton o sense. I'm sorry I missed the earlier discussion on this. Thanks

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:44 AM

SOLON

Quote:
Originally posted by Skydance:
Alternatively, his "orders" might have been to infiltrate a smuggling ring (any smuggler he could find) and map it out for an eventual bust. Some of our recent theories indicate the produce would appeal to a smuggler...

I really can't see this. If Book is an Alliance sleeper agent or lawman of any kind than he's either under very, very deep cover, or he's way, way off the reservation.

He's had plenty of chances to bust them, he's witnessed them committing all sorts of crimes from petty misdemeanors all the way up to the killing of a policeman.

Moreover, he knows all about the Tams. If he were a lawman they'd all've been in Alliance prison, or in some cases executed by now. I tend to agree with what I'm about to quote you on. He honestly felt called to, "Bring the Word to them's that need it told." He's a preacher now, but he's been a man of action all his life, and the monastic life's not for him.

Quote:

...I really think he's on a journey to test his faith, and do good in the world. Being a man of action, he couldn't just stay locked away in a monastery his whole life. He had to gain spirituality there, and then take it out into the world...

I really don't doubt that he's honestly a full-fledged, non-sleeper-agent shepard now. The big questions that I want to know are:

Why did he become a priest?
and
Who and what was he before he found religion?

"You're not thinking of taking on orders yourself are you?"

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:57 AM

SOLON

Quote:
Originally posted by Xarr:
Since we're speaking of Book, I have a question. It may be nothing, but then... it may be something...

...When River is wandering through the ship, listening in on everyone's thoughts, what was it that Book was thinking? I can't remember his exact words but it didn't strike me as particularly priest-like. As I recall, it was quite hostile.

Perhaps this "narrower path" he's on is leading to some serious pent up hostility.

Xarr, I popped in trusty DVD #4 and checked it out for you.

Book thinks, 'I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not! [menacingly]So where does that put you?'

Definitely hostile, but also a bit cryptic. Mysterious... Just like Book is anyway.

...Without the hostile I mean.

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:17 PM

KOHAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Solon:

Book thinks, 'I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not! [menacingly]So where does that put you?'

Definitely hostile, but also a bit cryptic. Mysterious... Just like Book is anyway.

...Without the hostile I mean.

Something in the past that he's done (or done onto)....

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, they say mercy is the mark of a great man.

Guess I'm just a good man.

Well, I'm all right. "

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:39 PM

GREGGALLINSON

Quote:
Originally posted by Kohan:

Also, in ARIEL it said that he went back to the monastery while Inara went to do her annual check-up. I wonder what that's all about? Simply just a time of repentance? a temporary get away? or...?

Or Ron Glass needing a vacation?:)

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:20 PM

THEREALME

Solon,

I agree entirely with your ideas.

But really, I do not believe that Book is currently anything but what he appears to be. He is a shepherd. A man of God.

However, it is also clear that he is running from a terrible (to him) past. Or if not running, then perhaps it is a past he simply rejects.

My own personal theory of Kaylee not being read by River is that she WAS read. If I recall correctly, during that time that River was walking by (and she may or may not have been there in the flesh), Simon looked at her and said his bit, but then Kaylee looked at her and said... nothing.

I think there wasn't anything there to register. This is not to suggest that Kaylee has no mind, but something more along the line of her being innocent and open like others have suggested.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 6:01 PM

SOLON

Quote:
Originally posted by THEREALME:

But really, I do not believe that Book is currently anything but what he appears to be. He is a shepherd. A man of God.

However, it is also clear that he is running from a terrible (to him) past. Or if not running, then perhaps it is a past he simply rejects.

That's interesting. I automatically skipped ahead to running from his past into the priesthood. I didn't stop to consider a more simple, and less frantic or fearful, rejection or abandonment of that past, or of an old allegiance or ideal from it.

Book is clearly a devoted man of the cloth at the moment, what brought him there, and from where is what's piqued my interest.

"You don't fix faith... Faith fixes you."

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 6:04 PM

GOLDENFOOL

Hey all. I'm a little new to this board, mostly hang out on the OB, but I love the intense analysation of the eps that happens over here. Reckon you'll be seeing a bit more of me. Forgive me while I attempt to get the hang of the quote system.

Quote:

Xarr, I popped in trusty DVD #4 and checked it out for you.

Book thinks, 'I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not! [menacingly]So where does that put you?'

Definitely hostile, but also a bit cryptic. Mysterious... Just like Book is anyway.

...Without the hostile I mean.

What I always wondered about that comment from Book was, who was the comment directed to? Was it directed at Jayne? Does Book know something about Jayne that we don't? Or is the comment directed at the crew in general? Or at River specifically?

From what I've read, I bet you guys have an opinion...

Charlotte

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:14 PM

KOHAN

you guess is as good as any guess.

My guess is that this particular line was delivered to him from his hidden past...

or, he himself said it and something tragic came out of it (maybe to a loved one? causing a tragic event to occur to him/her)
whatever it is, I think the line has something to do with him rather then anyone else on the ship.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, they say mercy is the mark of a great man.

Guess I'm just a good man.

Well, I'm all right. "

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Friday, June 18, 2004 8:39 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by THEREALME:
Simon looked at her and said his bit, but then Kaylee looked at her and said... nothing.

I think there wasn't anything there to register. This is not to suggest that Kaylee has no mind,

People're gonna hate me for this, but I just replayed the kitchen scene (with Book & Jayne) in my head, but with Jayne's "thought" being just a blank and somewhat befuddled-looking stare. . .

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, June 18, 2004 11:34 PM

SOLON

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

People're gonna hate me for this, but I just replayed the kitchen scene (with Book & Jayne) in my head, but with Jayne's "thought" being just a blank and somewhat befuddled-looking stare. . .

I'm going from memory here, but I'm fairly sure that Jane does have a "thought". One that he's said earlier in the series to Mal very dramatically in an airlock as a matter of fact.

"I got stupid, the money was too good."

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Friday, June 18, 2004 11:37 PM

DRAKON

Nice take.

I took his confession more of a concern about holding a "hot house" faith. A faith that works fine in the safe world of the abbey, but out in the real world, (where it is more needed) it fails spectacularly. That he is having a crisis of faith. If what you believe in does not work as expected in the outside world, is it true?

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 12:28 AM

INSIGHT SPINNER

Quote:
Originally posted by GoldenFool:
Hey all. I'm a little new to this board, mostly hang out on the OB, but I love the intense analysation of the eps that happens over here. Reckon you'll be seeing a bit more of me. Forgive me while I attempt to get the hang of the quote system.

Quote:

Xarr, I popped in trusty DVD #4 and checked it out for you.

Book thinks, 'I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not! [menacingly]So where does that put you?'

Definitely hostile, but also a bit cryptic. Mysterious... Just like Book is anyway.

...Without the hostile I mean.

What I always wondered about that comment from Book was, who was the comment directed to? Was it directed at Jayne? Does Book know something about Jayne that we don't? Or is the comment directed at the crew in general? Or at River specifically?

From what I've read, I bet you guys have an opinion...

Charlotte

Hi and welcome!

I just watched OIS (it's still in my DVD drive) and for the first time "realized" that what Book says feels more like it is in the context of an interrogation. Previously, I thought it was in the context of an argument that happened at some point in his powerful past -- but this time it really felt like he was putting the screws to someone in an official "bad cop" context.

insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 4:45 AM

THEREALME

What do you take as a clue? How much meticulous analyzing should be done? These are from memory, so forgive mistakes, please.

With that said, I paid attention to where the people were looking and what they were doing when they told River their strange quotes (ie, when River read their minds).

Simon and Jayne both looked directly at River, and their quotes had to do directly with her. "I would be there now." "I got stupid. The money was too good."

Wash and Zoe were only concerned with each other.

Mal looked down and away from River. "None of it means a damn thing."

Inara looked at River. "I'm a big girl, just tell me."

Book seemed hunched over to me, looking at his own hands.

What does it all mean? I'm not sure. But MAYBE it means something. Maybe when they look at River, the quote has to do with River. When they look away, it is something general, and when they look at themselves (like Book) it has to do with themselves.

Too much? I dunno.

But I think Book's quote had to do with his dark past, and probably led to his joining the priesthood. I could easily see Book in an interrogation scene as an evil Alliance officer.

Another idea that has been talked about is that these are actual quotes from these characters that were said in the past or will be said in the future. Jayne and Simon, for example.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

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Sunday, June 20, 2004 2:04 AM

INSIGHT SPINNER

Quote:
Originally posted by THEREALME:
What do you take as a clue? How much meticulous analyzing should be done? These are from memory, so forgive mistakes, please.

With that said, I paid attention to where the people were looking and what they were doing when they told River their strange quotes (ie, when River read their minds).

Simon and Jayne both looked directly at River, and their quotes had to do directly with her. "I would be there now." "I got stupid. The money was too good."

Wash and Zoe were only concerned with each other.

Mal looked down and away from River. "None of it means a damn thing."

Inara looked at River. "I'm a big girl, just tell me."

Book seemed hunched over to me, looking at his own hands.

What does it all mean? I'm not sure. But MAYBE it means something. Maybe when they look at River, the quote has to do with River. When they look away, it is something general, and when they look at themselves (like Book) it has to do with themselves.

Too much? I dunno.

But I think Book's quote had to do with his dark past, and probably led to his joining the priesthood. I could easily see Book in an interrogation scene as an evil Alliance officer.

Another idea that has been talked about is that these are actual quotes from these characters that were said in the past or will be said in the future. Jayne and Simon, for example.

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

I think the direction of the glances are meant to be a clue, but (since I am obsessed with OIS) I recently noticed some subtle differences to the descriptions you give above:

Jayne and Simon -- check!
Same for Wash and Zoe -- although I have a thought on them and will get back to it in a sec.
Mal looks down and Inara looks up and out, but I'm not sure she is looking at River -- I feel she may be talking to River or to someone else. It just isn't clear...and that's a clue, because others are very clearly looking at her.

Book doesn't appear hunched over to me, he is looking down, in derision, with a sneer on his face, looking right down his nose. I can imagine someone in a chair..or on a table or the floor being the focus of his attention...

And just to ramble...I see ths scene with Wash and Zoe as being representative of a similar role as Kaylee's -- they don't have any regrets of behavior except to one another with regard to the marriage and baby issues, but they are rock solid, this was proved in War Stories. Zoe is a stone cold (what Kaylee said in Chinese), but she has nothing to regret ro feel guilty over, as she does only what the situation requires. She calculates (which engages her values as well as strategy, etc.), then acts accordingly even if the action requires ruthlessness, so she her conscience is clear. And Wash is similarly frank and forthright in his speech and actions, if more impulsive. And they both have protective soft spots for River (Note the dialogue in response to Jayne's butcher knife complaint: Wacky fun...no one we can't spare [paraphrasing]). But it wouldn't do to have them also have nothing to say to River in this episode, it would dilute the point that Kaylee has a personal purity of motive that can be taken at face value, so they show the extent to which River can pick up on emotions.

Wow...I do go on. I guess my answer to your first 2 questions above wouid have to be: we should analyze until we fall down from fatigue and everything is a clue.

insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:46 AM

THEREALME

Thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I'm also glad I'm wrong about Inara. I didn't think she should have been talking to River. I like the theory of "Words to a doctor."

The Real Me

Got Mudder's Milk?

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