GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Male and Female Imponderables--Delicate Sound of Thunder

POSTED BY: TRISTAN
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 05:41
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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:02 AM

KELKHIL


Nighty night Mags!

MSG - I had pretty much the same experiance this weekend at my Mother-In-Laws house with my Sister-In-Laws kids. They were so out of control that my daughter did not want anything to do with them. I could not believe it especially with the way my Sister-In-Law is. But none the less they just ran wild and her and her husband did nothing about it.
And they wonder why we never envite their kids over for sleep-overs. I think I would loose it.

Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:15 AM

RUGBUG


Ah crap...I just had a big ole post about how there have been too many changes to how kids are parented to say that lack of 'beatings' (I don't like that term) is to blame for deteriorating societal values. We could replace 'beatings' with 'not making kids address elders as 'Sir" or 'Ma'am' and draw similar conclusions.

CMH, do have any imponderables that don't involve violence? 'Cause, you know, that might be refreshing.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:24 AM

MSG


Beating implies extreme physical harm ( which studies show produces, violent, irrational, and inappropriate behavior)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:27 AM

RUGBUG


And see there, I typed out something very similar to what MSG said. Basically kids need consistent rules and boundaries and when those are broken there need to be consistent consequences.

I hope this isn't offensive, but it's a lot like training animals. Some test the boundaries harder than others but if the rules are fair and consistent and the consequences are in line with the misbehaviour, you will develop well behaved animal.

As for spanking, my mom did spank us on a regular basis. But, I think she did it right. She would make us go sit in our rooms for about 15 minutes to 'think' about what we did wrong (as an adult, I realized that this was so she could cool off and wasn't hitting us out of anger). Then she would come in and we would have to tell her what we did wrong and why we were being spanked. We also had to tell her what the "right" choice in the situation would've been. Then she spanked us. I've got to say that if you're going to spank, it should be similar to that.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:32 AM

MACAVITY


I don't like the idea of using medications on kids. When I was in school, I was diagnosed with every single mental disorder you could possibly apply to someone of that age, with medications to suit (and the diagnosis would change when they discovered that whichever medication had last been prescribed wasn't working).

Before the medications, there were times when I felt like my brain was on fire with all these wonderful ideas.

After I started taking them, I felt like someone had dumped a bucket of cold water on my imagination, then tossed it into cryosleep. I wound up pretty gorram depressed - hell, there were even times when I considered suicide.

I'm off the meds now - have been for nearly ten years - but frankly, the memories of the time when I was on meds f***ing scare me, and I wonder how many of the teenagers who commit suicide were on some kind of psychoactive medication, such as Prozac, Cylert, Ritalin, and the like.

"First come smiles, then come lies. Last is gunfire." - Roland Deschain, gunslinger

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:45 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


That is scary, Mac! I'm glad no one got ahold of me when I was young and put me on nasties; I had enough problems without that, thank you!
I think the sad fact is that most teens who comit suicide are on meds. So are most teens who bring guns to school and kill people. Of course no one talks about that. Can you imagine the outcry if it were actually said that meds cause that kind of behavior?
Although I don't think they always do, I just don't think they help. Drugging someone instead of actually addressing the problem is not the answer, because it will only treat the symptoms, and not even those all the time. The problem will still be there under the surface. Or, as you said, the meds put out your fire and hence your will to live. Too many people are put on meds they shouldn't be. Not even meds when they should actually be working on the solution rather than just covering it in drugs, I'm talking about being misdiagnosed and put on something TOTALLY wrong for you.
Sorry, this is an important subject to me. I picked it for a topic for an essay once, and the research I did... It made it even more important.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:49 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Good Morning all!


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:58 AM

SPACEANJL


Gonna jump in on the meds thing.

Don't take 'em, never want to. I'd rather have the odd, bleak moments and still have the powerful drive to create. I'm afraid that anything taken to alter brain chemistry for whatever reason can in fact alter personality and destroy creativity.

And it scares me that people let kids run wild, no boundaries, and then fence them in chemically instead of taking the time to say 'don't do that' for whatever reason.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:04 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Meds should only be used in conjunction with other forms of therapy (psycho, physical, emotional spiritual). Med.s rarely cure ailments on their own. They are a mere supplament to actual healing.


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:05 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by magdalena:
I actually am very like my Dad and I learned to control my temper at an early age coz I felt, like you, that he was the one in the wrong - not me! Another side of life we share a bond over...


That's so shiny
I'd say we were twins, only we obviously aren't That makes it even more shiny, in a way

Quote:

Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Meds should only be used in conjunction with other forms of therapy (psycho, physical, emotional spiritual). Med.s rarely cure ailments on their own. They are a mere supplament to actual healing.


I agree with you; that's what I was getting at. Too many people expect this 'magic pill' to just make it all go away. They don't think they have to work with their kids (or themselves). It really just causes more problems.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:05 AM

EMMARIGBY


Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
Beating implies extreme physical harm ( which studies show produces, violent, irrational, and inappropriate behavior)




Absolutely. I've seen a number of examples that reinforce this evidence!

I was smacked a total of three times in my life and I still remember them (or possibly still feel remorse for the severity of the offence).

Sometimes I regret my descision not to have children (not that I currently have any father material in my life!) as I have strong views about child rearing and would like to try them out. They involve strict follow through on discipline but also positive attention such as playing, drawing or reading with kids when they're good. I hope my eldest sister lets me interact more with her twins than my middle sister has with my neice.

Case in point, she's 10 years old and a while back she came up and, quite unprovokedly, kicked me really hard in the leg. I was quite proud that I didn't get angry, just calmly and firmly asked her to apologise or leave the room until she was ready to do so politely. She promply threw a tantrum and my sister, who had watched all this, turned to me and, in front of my neice, started shouting at me for always causing trouble and never letting her have any peace!

Don't get me wrong, I adore my neice. But I don't think it's healthy for her to get her way all the time. Actually she used to be so picky with her food that my sister would give in and only feed her bare pasta or chip butties. It gave her terrible stomach problems. She doesn't have any consitancy in her life either. I've seen my sister scream at her for accidentally knocking over a drink. If I ever try to comment I get shouted at that it's none of my business, what would I know I'm not a mother and that 'I work every hour to try to buy her the things she wants'. Personally I think she could do with a few less posessions (it takes 5 hours every Christmas to open all the presents she gets, and I never know what to get her because her parents and grandparents get her anything she fancies as soon as she wants it so she never needs to look forward to anything) and a little more quality interaction.

Sorry for the rant, it's a really sore point. It upsets me when my sister goes on about how screwed up my neice is (she's a complete hypochondriac and can sometimes be really insecure with violent temper tantrums - most of the time she's sweet and sensitive though) but won't listen to any criticisms or suggestions for things she might be doing wrong.


Oh dear, I have got a bit riled over this. Guess I needed to vent!



___________________
Hissssssssss!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:15 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Wow, Emma. Just wow.
See, the smart folk like us need to reproduce! I'm not reproducing because I want a life and want to be able to take care of my kids before I have any. In other words, because I'm thinking. But those that think should have kids! Not that it's even an option right now. Need to find a man who can also think and then I might be able to go for it.
I'm so worried I couldn't afford to properly raise a child right now. I wouldn't want the kind of stress so many people have trying to support their family (I wouldn't want to spoil a kid, just not have to worry about feeding one, you know). I think stress would affect my possible mommy skills.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:44 AM

MSG


Emma- wow scary what lack of parenting can do.

As for Ritalin- I have ADD ( severe) if it hadn't been for Ritalin I really think I would be a day care worker, not that this is bad, just not where I wanted to be.( I doubt I would have graduated from college) I wasn't diagnosed until college and I was always frustrated and depressed because I knew I was as smart as my friends, but my grades sucked. I always forgot things ( like assignment due dates) and I was always in trouble at home for forgetting, messing up ,etc...It was not the happiest time for me. Being diagnosed and properly treated was like a guilty verdict had been over turned I was no longer the lazy, daffy, dingbat who never " worked up to potential" I was a great student and I always got my chores and other stuff done. I have seen ritalin make a major difference and turn kids whole lives around, but I will also say that any misdiagnosis or just random medication is useless and more harmful than leaving it be. Doctors, teachers, and parents need to work together and carefully assess ALL symptoms and determine treatment for the whole problem. Not just look at a kid and say oh he's depressed medicate him ( might be depression, might be depressed due to problems caused by ADD, might be manic depressive, might be a ton of things, look first, look again, talk to everyone about what they saw when they looked, and then leap)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:56 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


*Is reminded* Did you get my messages, Ms G? Have to check, you know, site the way it is at times. I will be very sad if they didn't get to you, because they were long and complicated and I didn't save them.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:57 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


Afternoon Ponderers,

I myself was asked to go on meds as a teen.I refused adamantly .And I'm now a reasonably sane adult.I'm not sure meds are ever the right thing for kids.A good therapist can do wonders.

My children are never hit because I don't believe it really teaches them anything.I am however very strict and expect alot from my boys.They know that misbehavior gets punished with time outs & then if that doesn't work time off from bedtimes & then other favorite things taken away for some time,like tv or park time.
Dylan my 6 year old is extremely well behaved and I hope Sean will be one day too.Although he is a little more tasmanian Devil like.So he might prove more of a challange.

PR- I have no doubt that if & when you are ready you'll be a great mommy.

Bryce
***************************

I swallowed a bug.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:58 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


I think I might suffer from adult ADD. Or maybe I really am scatter brained. You make the call.


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:03 AM

MSG


see LA that's great it's also called parenting!!! I wish more parents were like you. With truly and correctly diagnosed ADD ( which can now be done using a PET scan) the meds simply replace missing and much needed chemicals the same way that insulin replaces what's missing for diabetics. I wouldn't ask a diabetic to suck it up and be ok without insulin and I wouldn't ask that of an ADD kid either. Their brain is missing crucial neurotransmitting chemicals and without them it's so much more difficult to function. Therapy can help as can organizational stratagies, but without the meds it's the difference between having a rope to help you pull yoursel fup the mountain and crawling hand over hand along jagged rocks without help. You can make it up the mountain both ways, but why would you want your child to struggle so hard when you have the power to help them...of course this ONLY applies to properly diagnosed genuine ADD and ADHD sufferers not the rantings of an irritated teacher who just wants the kid to sit or a parent who'd like zombies instead of kids. Ok I know I've been way rambling and overlong in my postings...since I might be pregnant I've had to go off my ritalin and I am having a really tough time. I forgot to get grades in. I can't focus and make concise thoughts, and I am really having trouble with maintaining my thoughs so I appologize if this is bizzare or irrelevant or ( as even I can see) really way too long!

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:04 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


NV_ I've often wondered that about myself too.While ago I think it might have been MSG who mentioned a develomental disorder called Dyspraxia, Now that reaaly describes me,and my Dylan.

MSG - thankfully I have no experience with ADD.I was talking more along the depression meds.Sorry to hear you're having a hard time ,but it is for a good reason !
Bryce
*************************************

I swallowed a bug.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:07 AM

SPACEANJL


Just re-read my earlier post - my issue was with meds for depression. I agree with the ADD thing - kids need proper attention and boundaries. - we have evil little hellspawn that come into the shop and just run about getting ignored. One tried to stick his fingers in the meat-slicer, and the mother didn't even react until I yelled at him. She was worried I would repress his creativity. Reckon if L'il Jackson P had got his way, we'd all be watching the next Guggenheim Special in action. Nothing medical, just a badly-behaved little sod.

On a lighter note - duct tape is the way forward. Worked for Duke (Doonesbury...)

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:10 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Some sort of chemical imbalace bothers me throughout the year. May be seasonal.

MSG, I really feel for you.




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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:15 AM

EMMARIGBY


I find it really interesting to see someone on Ritalin who says it has helped, as I usually only get to hear arguements against it (my mum is a care assistant for a 5 year old who is dosed up - wrongly in her opinion. She's seen a sweet imaginative child with some behavioural problems turn into a sullen depressed zombie.) I have pretty much the same views that you summed up, that where it truely is needed then it can make a great positive difference.

I just wish that there was a concentration pill for the truely scatterbrained of us. I have the attention span of a three year old. So many projects that I start or mean to start and never get around to finishing. I just don't seem to have much will power at all. I often wonder what I could accomplish if I could be as motivated and active as some people. I'm lucky if I can force 5 hours of really useful activity into a day. *Sigh*

___________________
Hissssssssss!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:16 AM

TRISTAN


Huh, I missed alot!

RugBug, about the animal comment, not offense taken at all. We are animals, and the same rules apply to all of us, even in the area of learned behavior. Normal, tried-and-true methods generally work, but there are individuals with wiring flaws, and traditional methods do not always work. Thank you for that post!

Damn, Emma. :hugs: and



______________________________________

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:18 AM

MSG


mostly I'm just a bit of a dingbat and I can't track an idea for more than a few moments and I have a horrible tendancy to forget and misplace things...sigh but hey it's worth it. It just makes life a bit of a struggle to get what I need done and not forget anything important, but oh well it'll be worth it and all:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:21 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


For Emma who wants to improve her concentration and MsG who is off her Ritalin:
http://www.abc.net.au/ra/innovations/stories/s1695160.htm (This interview briefly mentions Dyspraxsia, too)
http://www.usa.makelifebetter.com/systems/science/science_22776.html
http://www.fatsforhealth.com/news_update/research_summary_brain.php
Well, you get the idea. Google "fish oil" or "Omega-3" and "brain function" if you want still more info.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:38 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Wow, a discussion on psyche meds. Just what I need after a hard day

Well, I can only speak from my own experience, which is this; I've suffered from depression in the past. I was prescribed meds. I took the meds. I got better.

I was lucky in a lot of respects - my depression was fairly mild (not that it felt that way to me, but then it never does) and consequently I only needed a mild dose. I stabalised pretty quickly and didn't get any adverse reactions.
It was pretty much like taking an antibiotic for an infection, only it sorted out the funky chemicals in my brain instead.

Since then I've had to be careful and I've used other therapies to help prevent getting depressed again, so hopefully I won't need any more meds

That's about it. Questions? Comments?




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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:42 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


MSG _ pregnancy also can make you very absentminded.I was never so scatterbrained in all my life.

PR- I bookmarked the articles I've got to go get Dylan from school,so I'll read them tonight over a margarita at the forsaken pub.
TTFN.

Bryce
***************************8




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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:42 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


MSG _ pregnancy also can make you very absentminded.I was never so scatterbrained in all my life.

PR- I bookmarked the articles I've got to go get Dylan from school,so I'll read them tonight over a margarita at the forsaken pub.
TTFN.

Bryce
***************************





I swallowed a bug.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:44 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


Sorry for the double post.Sean just ran at me full force.

Bryce
**************************

I swallowed a bug.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:46 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


Ok, I gotta jump in on the meds thing. As someone with three chronic illnesses and taking five separate prescriptions, I have a strong opinion about these things.

I think it's important to differentiate between psychiatric drugs, and medications used to treat physical illness. I don't think this is a mistake that anyone here is making, but I often hear that medicating children at all is wrong, and I think that overlooks the scores of childhood diseases that require medication. One of the diseases I suffer from results in my thyroid not producing enough thyroid hormone, so every day for the rest of my life, I will have to take a pill that supplements that which my body cannot make naturally. Without that medication, my health would slowly decline, until I could no longer work, until I could no longer get out of bed, and eventually I would end up in a coma and die. This disease runs in my family, so all my siblings are tested for it regularly, and if my youngest brother, who just turned 13, was diagnosed with it, I would challenge anyone who tried to deny him the necessary and life saving medication.

I'm a big believer in medical testing, and I refuse to accept a diagnosis that doesn't have solid medical tests to back it up. There's a simple blood test that measures thyroid hormone, and I get that re-tested often so that we can adjust the amount of thyroid medication I'm taking. My third chronic illness is so far undiagnosed (that is, we don't know specifically what it is, but my doctors are doing their best to treat it), and I've had plenty of quacks try to pawn off some BS diagnosis on me -- supposed diseases that either have no tests whatsoever on which to base the diagnosis, or have wishy-washy "clinical signs" which I don't fit. No thanks.

Medication for depression is the one that gets me, though. I've been strongly warned against taking any psychiatric medications, because they would mask my symptoms, and because it would mess with the delicate hormonal balance of my body. I've fired more than a couple of doctors for implying that the problem is just that I'm depressed, and there's not anything actually physiologically wrong. Those suggestions usually come out after they haven't been able to diagnose me within a few weeks, and I'm at the height of a flare up. (I'm at the height of good health right now, but with flu season upon us, it's only a matter of time before I catch something, which will cause a flare and lead to six+ months of pain.) I just feel like telling them, "Look, bub, of course I'm depressed, I've been in pain 24/7 for the last X months straight, can't work full time, can't do the grocery shopping by myself, and walk with a cane at the age of 25. How would you feel? Now how bout you treat the underlying cause, rather than trying to stuff Prozac in my mouth just to get me out of your office, hmm?"

MsG, I'm glad to hear that ADD can be diagnosed with a PET scan now. One of my brothers was diagnosed with it about 10 years ago, and it was hugely frustrating for our family. The other five of us were identified as "gifted," and all but one of the behaviors the teachers and doctors pointed out in my brother applied to the rest of us as well. The only difference was he would forget to do his school assignments. All six of us would drift off in class (usually writing stories in our heads), forget to do our chores, be disorganized and running late, all of it. So I'm glad to hear that the diagnosis for ADD has moved beyond a list of behaviors that looks like it was copied directly out of the "Gifted and Talented" manual.

My parents agreed to medicate my brother for awhile, but eventually my mom decided to try taking him off the medication and just home school him instead. It took a lot of time and effort, but through strict schedules and a lot of attention, my brother finally developed good habits that let him function around whatever ADD he may or may not have had. He went back to public school for high school and sailed right through, just like the rest of us, got into a good college, met his sweetie and got married this past summer, all without being medicated. He's working as a teacher's assistant now, and is giving serious thought to becoming a teacher and working with children with special needs. He's the sweetest, most gentle man I know, and I'm sure he would be fantastic with those kids.

Did he have ADD? I don't know. Maybe it was mild ADD, or maybe the school and the doctors were trying to find something to blame his forgetfulness on. But that thin line between being praised for being gifted, and being ignored and medicated for having ADD, was beyond frustrating for our family.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:48 AM

MAVOURNEEN


LA is right. Being PG makes you

a) absent minded
b) clumsy

I was never so ditzy in all my life as when I had the tidbit on board. I dropped (and broke) plates, glasses, etc.

But it was a wonderful ditzy, too.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:52 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


That's kinda funny, I'm the exact opposite! My doc tested me for a thyroid problem when I first presented with my symptoms. He was 99% sure it was depression since there's a history of it in my family and no history of thyroid problems, but since my voice had become a bit deeper he wanted to rule it out. The symptoms are really, similar, so it's not surprising thyroid problems get misdiagnosed a lot.

EDIT: Replying to CaliforniaKaylee as, sadly, I am not the exact opposite of ditzy



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:29 AM

MSG


Yeah but we're not sure I'm pregnant and the absentminded is definitely due to my well diagnosed ADD...I've been all my life and been treated for it for 15 years :)

Oh the most horrible thought occured. I am already daffy brained without my ritalin, what if being pregnant makes it worse...oh that would be bad, very very bad. Ok and define dizzy Mavoureen..and while we're at it, just exactly what is morning sickness like???

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:37 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Oh MSG. (Pats on shoulder)

Anxiety ain't gonna help. Just relax. You sound like most guys on their wedding days.

Funny. When I was the best man at my buddy's wedding his dad mentioned that I looked more nervous than he (My bud) did. Almost forgot the gorram ring. Thats a bit wierd. And funny.


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:47 AM

MSG


Oh that so reminds me of a story from John. On his wedding day he decides to play a trick on his bride to be. He has his best man call her up and ask if she has seen John. ( thinking of course that this will scare the daylights out of her and she'll think he's bailed or something) The funny part is she's so busy stressing about her hair and what if it rains and all that she's not really paying attention says no and goes merrily on her way prepping for her wedding day totally unfazed...

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:50 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD


Well, this topic certainly took on a mind of it's own.

I'm glad to see so many people considering both sides of this, although I can't help but feel my point was lost. The point being that perhaps the conditions we diagnose people with having as a result of an abusive childhood is what we're supposed to be like. Maybe the real "conditions" are in the people who weren't abused. I have no real basis for this, other than several centuries of human history, but even that is open to interpretation I guess. Oh well, if no one wants to explore that subject...

Might I bring up a related subject? Rites of passage. Nearly every culture has had them, and they used to be a very important part of regulating society. A boy wasn't a man until he'd done this, and a girl wasn't a women until she'd done that. Beyond a lack of discipline in youth, I think that another reason rebellion has become a fad is because there's no more prestige, no clearly defined cultural acceptance of one passing into adulthood.

The foundations of life, hunting, wilderness survival, fighting, enduring, seem to have received a great deal of disliking from the more "liberally inclined" as relics of savage times, while hazing rituals like drinking games and tantalization have become the sorry excuse for passage into social circles. I for one think that this is very unfortunate.

Humans should hold on dearly to the skills handed down to them by their forbearers, because no nation or government or society is made to last forever. We will have to return to those skills someday for some reason. That we have no more rites of passage, rites where we have taken those skills and apply them to a real life or death situation that we've entered into voluntarily, is deeply regrettable for humanity as a whole.

[IMG]
"Pain is your friend, it is your ally. It will keep you awake, and angry, and remind you to finish the mission and get the hell home. But you know the best thing about pain? It let's you know that you're not dead yet."

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:59 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD


Also, DesktopHippie, You don't feel as if maybe you're a little bit weaker for having taken the drugs to solve your problem? Please, I'm really not trying to insult you here, just asking a seriouse question.

Like, if you ever have those problems again, because you haven't learned to cope with them by yourself, that you'll be a little dependent on an anti-depressent? In the long run, might there also be genetic problems with this? I don't know exactly how genetics work in reproduction, but wouldn't a line of people who were dependent on the same drug eventually create a genetic dependence on that same thing?

I was perscribed anti-depressents as well, and I refused to take them. Of course, I lied about that, but the doctor and my parents both agreed that these drugs that I hadn't been taking were "working". So I really feel as if I solved my issues without the help of medication... but then, I'm sure many people on this forum would argue if I've actually solved those issues.

Anyways, food for thought.

[IMG]
"Pain is your friend, it is your ally. It will keep you awake, and angry, and remind you to finish the mission and get the hell home. But you know the best thing about pain? It let's you know that you're not dead yet."

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:05 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


John as in the Book of John?

Okay, so here's a small peeve of mine. Please take no offense ladies as I am but a man and occasionally know not what I do.

So most women, regardless of age and society, that I have been graced enough to communicate with do this thing.
Talking about folks of which I have no idea who they are.
"So Suzy kicked Bill square in the junk. He fell like a ton of bricks right into a pile of Sam's dog Fuzzy's crap. You know, the Pomeranian she got from Ted's sister Mabel, (whispers), the one with the crooked eye. So he went to Doctor Sham's and was told he actually had three testicles. I wondered why Helen called him Thrice,"

Okay, so the story is quite funny. Or, at least to my childish mind. But who the Fudge are these people?

Okay, rant done (for now). Just wondering why some women are inclined to do this.


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:13 AM

MAVOURNEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
Ok and define dizzy Mavoureen..and while we're at it, just exactly what is morning sickness like???



I was ditzy...not dizzy! LOL. I would forget everything, had to write everything down - info went in one ear and out the other. A total bubble brain. Like an auburn, slightly zaftig Jessica Simpson.
No wait. I think I just insulted myself.

Can't comment on morning sickness. I had one, only one moment where I said to my self "I think I'm gonna be sick" and then it passed. However, I have friends who were struck so bad that the moment they woke up they ate saltines kept at their bedside to help prevent nausea before they sat up.
I think its like food poisoning. It hits suddenly and violently, and then its gone.
Don't stress about things like this until you know there's a Mr&MsG combo pack in the oven.

*Mav shakes fertilty god Kokopelli towards the West*


"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:19 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Mrand MSG combo pack. HA! Thats too funny. (Jots down in memory for future refeance)


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:31 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
Also, DesktopHippie, You don't feel as if maybe you're a little bit weaker for having taken the drugs to solve your problem? Like, if you ever have those problems again, because you haven't learned to cope with them by yourself, that you'll be a little dependent on an anti-depressent?



Short answer - Nope.


Long answer - I didn't have problems. I hadn't suffered a traumatic event or broken up with a guy or lost my puppy or suffered anything. Well, okay I had in the past, same as just about everyone does. This thing came out of nowhere and hit me like a tonne of bricks. No event in my life brought it on. Like I said, now I have to be wary when something does happen, as it could trigger it again, and then I take steps so I won't need to take meds. Bad stuff has happened since - some really crappy stuff - and I haven't needed to go back on meds. Hopefully I never will.

But if I do need to be medicated again, I won't feel weak about it. No one thinks you're weak if you take pain medication for a broken leg. No one thinks you're weak if you have chemotherapy to treat cancer. But if it's a psychological condition suddenly it's "Oh, you don't need meds! You just need to be stronger!" and franky, that's bull. There are psychological conditions that need meds and psychological conditions that don't. Mine does, when it's severe enough. And ~please~ bear in mind this is coming from a Hippie who is all about the sharing and not so keen on the pharmacuetical industry.

I got sick. That wasn't my fault. There was nothing I could have done to prevent it and I did what I needed to do to make it better. Taking medication of any kind isn't a source of shame. It's the sensible thing to do in a lot of situations. Yes, I'm very aware that people are misdiagnosed and wrongfully medicated and I am *hugely* opposed to kids being given medication just to make them behave in class - and please bear in mind that I'm a teacher a well as a Hippie! I know those things happen, and I know they're wrong, but I also know that people go to the other extreme and assume that any psychological medication is just messing with your mind and you can get better by yourself. That kind of thinking leads to people with horrific conditions like manic depression and schizophrenia living apalling lives when they should be supported and given the chance to live normal lives.

Are there genetic problems? Not with the meds I took, and I didn't have to take them long term anyway, so they got out of my system fairly quickly. And seriously, as someone who has suffered from depression yourself you should be aware that when you're in the grips of a depressive episode, reproduction is ~really~ not an issue!




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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:42 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by nvghostrider:
John as in the Book of John?

Okay, so here's a small peeve of mine. Please take no offense ladies as I am but a man and occasionally know not what I do.

So most women, regardless of age and society, that I have been graced enough to communicate with do this thing.
Talking about folks of which I have no idea who they are.
"So Suzy kicked Bill square in the junk. He fell like a ton of bricks right into a pile of Sam's dog Fuzzy's crap. You know, the Pomeranian she got from Ted's sister Mabel, (whispers), the one with the crooked eye. So he went to Doctor Sham's and was told he actually had three testicles. I wondered why Helen called him Thrice,"

Okay, so the story is quite funny. Or, at least to my childish mind. But who the Fudge are these people?

Okay, rant done (for now). Just wondering why some women are inclined to do this.




I get that too!!! In fact, I get it from people talking about soap operas and/or Big Brother! I tell them over and over that I don't watch them, but they keep on cheerfully giving me the latest gossip from the show, yapping on about all these names that mean nothing to me.

That being said, I talk about people other people don't know, but only if there's a funny story (I like telling funny stories) and I'll do my best to explain who is who first. I usually mention funny stuff that happens at work anyway so most of my friends know the names of my workmates. I don't talk about their lives or anything though. I mean, it's not like they know my workmates, so why would they care?




More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:39 AM

MSG


NV- sorry about that. One of the things that the ritalin helps with is my tendancy toward non-sequiter. My poor husband is still recovering from the time he had been telling me the basic plot of the show Forever Knight( about a repentant vampire turned cop who's trying to cure his vampirism) and two days later out of the blue with no lead in or connection " where did he get the animal blood'

John is a friend of mine. I used his name because I hate it when people say " there was this guy and he went with this other guy and this girl to this guys house and..." I get lost during those stories so I figure the name isn't important as a referential, just as a way to keep track of who is who in the story.

Chris- well I'd certainly be concerned if I were in your family as you seem unable to find a topic other than death, pain, or weakness that holds your attention. That's not really a sign of a healthy mind.
And if I understand you correctly you believe that we should return to a time period when severe physical abuse was not illegal because the resultant aggression was more normal for the human race? And that history bears this out because of wars? If that is what you said it's a bit odd as each civilization as it develops, tends to develop away from physical violence.Warfare was neither common place nor a way of life from most people during most time periods. Violence has, in general been contained to small groups ( millitary usually)
If you are referring to child abuse, historically it has never been common place and has been confined to those sadistic individuals who can only gain gratification by abusing those they are physically stronger than. In fact Henry the 8th once had a cortier beheaded when he witnessed the courtier abusing his wife and children( the courtier's wife)and condemned it as an act of a madman.

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:44 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Boy, when Henry VIII says you're treating your wife badly, you know there's a problem!

On that cheeful note I bid thee all goodnight and sweet dreams




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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:47 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


No problemo. I just wnated to stoke conversation with an observation. But look at the summary of Forever Knight. I'd watch it with that explaination (show rocked by the way)



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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:47 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD


Hmm, that all makes too much much sense. I never looked at it in terms of pain medication for physical vs. anti-depressents for mental.

Even so, I actually prefer not to take medications for physical pain. The last time I did was when they cut me open to take bullet fragments out of my shoulder. The way I see it, I'm still weak for taking them, and Lord knows I wish I could be tough enough to endure the pain of invasive surgery without meds. I think it would be the mark of a truly superior person to be able to withstand that kind of pain by themselves, and while I may not ever acheive that, I'll certainly strive for it.

Reproduction's never an issue for me, so I guess it was stupid of me to bring that up in the first place. Anyways, I see your point and the vailidity behind it.

EDIT: As to the following...

Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
Chris- well I'd certainly be concerned if I were in your family as you seem unable to find a topic other than death, pain, or weakness that holds your attention. That's not really a sign of a healthy mind.
And if I understand you correctly you believe that we should return to a time period when severe physical abuse was not illegal because the resultant aggression was more normal for the human race? And that history bears this out because of wars? If that is what you said it's a bit odd as each civilization as it develops, tends to develop away from physical violence.Warfare was neither common place nor a way of life from most people during most time periods. Violence has, in general been contained to small groups ( millitary usually)
If you are referring to child abuse, historically it has never been common place and has been confined to those sadistic individuals who can only gain gratification by abusing those they are physically stronger than. In fact Henry the 8th once had a cortier beheaded when he witnessed the courtier abusing his wife and children( the courtier's wife)and condemned it as an act of a madman.



The way I recall learning it, Japan has had the longest reign of peace out of any nation in history, and that was only around 250 years. Am I just horribly mis-informed? I'm racking my brain right now trying to think of a nation or culture that hasn't had to deal with constant domestic and/or foreign violence.

Anyways, I'm not saying we should necessarily "return to a time" like that, but take into deeper consideration what might and might not be valuable from them, in spite of what we've been pre-conditioned to think of as taboo or unpleasant. Everyone I talk to in real life is quick to point out that our modern society as little use for older values that promote suffering, survival and an overall harsh lifestyle. I am equally quick to point out that assuming the world in front of us is the only one that will ever exist is a mistake repeated hundreds of times throughout history and almost always with dire consequences. Times of peace should not be for lulling ourselves into a false sense of security, believing that we're somehow not subject to the same realities as the rest of the world is and always has been. How many nations believed that they lived in golden ages that would never end? England? Rome? China? Japan? It's just plain ignorant to assume that we're exempt from the same fate. Those lapses of ignorance are the kinds of things that lead to 9/11 happening, and we should thank our lucky stars it wasn't worse.

[IMG]
"Pain is your friend, it is your ally. It will keep you awake, and angry, and remind you to finish the mission and get the hell home. But you know the best thing about pain? It let's you know that you're not dead yet."

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:48 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Night night DTH. And yes. That is pretty bad.


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:58 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


The absence of pain equals near death. At least if there is pain then you know you're alive. A superior person knows that pain is a fact of life and would do their best to alleviate it in ways that are not detrimental to their health. Some times most people need meds to keep the stress and anxiety down after the type of trauma you mentioned. Without keeping their heart rate and breathing in check they may open up and bleed to death. Even in small wounds. And if the person happens to be sleeping or unconcious, they might never wake up.

You are not weak, you are human.


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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:03 AM

SIRFRANCIS


As someone who is bipolar (the new term for manic depressive) I am in complete agreement with DesktopHippie. My condition is a chronic condition, like diabities. The medications allow me to lead my life. Much like insulin does for a diabetic. There were no out of the ordinary tragic events in my life. This is not a condition one can just "snap out of it". It has nothing to do with personal strenght or toughness. It is a chemical imbalance.

Unfortunately there are plenty of Doctors who simply prescribe medications, instead of treating the patient. Prozac and Rittlan have both seen much popularity. Years ago it was valiumn. It seems that there will always be a percentage of the population that will always look for a "pill" to make there lives better whether it is necesary or not.

As far as the belief that the medications will inhibit creativity, or cause personality changes, I have not lost any creativity. I still write, design theatre sets, and act. And my personality is more truly my own. When I was untreated for the BiPolar, there were times when I was a spectator in my own head. Not in control of what I was saying or doing. With the medications, I am more truly myself. So if that is a change in personality, I welcome it.

Perhaps my experiences are unique, but I would not give up the medications. On them I am me, without them there is a very real risk that I would end my own life. (Untreated Bipolar patients have a much higher suicide rate then people who are only depressive. It is due , in part, to the swings from euphoria to the depths of depression. The ride becomes exhausting and very scary, and there is no feeling of control. The only control is the ability to end it all.)

Personally I see it as a strength to take control of my condition, by any means possible, and reclaim my life.

And now I will get off my soapbox.

there is a special place in Hell for people who talk at the Theatre.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:16 AM

ZEEK


Man you guys talk a lot. Finally caught up from my absence just about in time to go home for the night.

Actually I mainly skimmed this stuff. Don't really have any particular point to jump in on though.

Medicating kids is usually not necessary IMO. We didn't do it for years and years. Those kids turned out alright.

Hmmm guess I did have a particular point to jump in on.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:27 AM

TRISTAN


SirFrancis! Welcome to the Imponderables! Thanks for making this your first stop. Hope to see you here often.

This is not meant to be an insult, as I also come from a theatre background...but I find it helpful to have some sort of disorder in the theatre field...heck, it's almost mandatory!

Having said that, let me thank you for sharing that with us.

Welcome back, Zeek! Yeah, there are days this thread just burns.

______________________________________

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