GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Strong Women

POSTED BY: GRAYFURY
UPDATED: Saturday, November 10, 2007 04:36
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5084
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Thursday, November 8, 2007 3:03 PM

GRAYFURY


Joss has always been an advocate of female characters that can more than hold their own with the fellas. and why shouldn't he?... I don't know which studio head in the 30's decided to keep women in the passenger seat, but its ashame. I decided to make a list of kick ass women from film and T.V. There were MANY ommisions that I self imposed... NO Cyborgs or robots, Sorry Jamie Sommers. NO Comic book characters. This list would be infinite... (Comic writers don't seem to be threatened by women, good for them.) NO Anime, same premise as comics, although Dunan Newt would top all lists...she kicks booty. You can add to this list if'n you want, and they are in no perticular order.

1. RIVER TAM - You all know where I'm going with this I hope

2. BUFFY TVS - Umm she kills vampires and thats pretty cool.

3. LEELOO - The 5th element herself, she may be engineered, but shes still a supreme being.

4. HELEN - The landlady from Kung-Fu hustle can whoop some butt and never drop her cigarette.

5. SELENE - From Underworld, I know shes a vampire and should be exempt, but shes a force even against other vampires and werewolves.

6. SARAH CONNOR - She gets major points for going from a soft club dwelling post teen, to a chiseled protector of her son.

7.ELLEN RIPLEY - Along the same lines as Sarah, but she was forced into self preservation, not self sacrifice.

8. MAX - From Dark Angel, Jessica Alba is hot.

9. SUSAN IVONOVA - In my opinion, the new Starbuck from BSG wouldn't have been a woman if'n it weren't for Babylon 5's #2. She was hard as stone, but when she showed her humanity, it was heartfelt.

10. THE BRIDE - You all saw Kill Bill, so I don't need to explain myself.

"Smellin' alot of IF comin' offa' this plan!"



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Thursday, November 8, 2007 3:46 PM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by GrayFury:
NO Anime, same premise as comics, although Dunan Newt would top all lists...

Actually, I maintain that Kagome Higurashi (from InuYasha) is stronger than any other character in anime, male or female. Strength isn't just the ability to kick ass, it's emotional. Kagome chooses to travel with InuYasha, knowing that he can't return her feelings because he loves Kikyo. She voluntarily breaks her own heart to help him. That takes more strength than I think I'd ever have.

Anyway, ruling out anime and cyberlife. . .

Sam Carter (Stargate SG-1). Not only does she kick ass, she may be the most brilliant human being on Earth --a reminder that girls have more options than "tomboy" or "fashionista." We need more science chicks. If I had a daughter, I'd want her to aspire to be like Sam.

Kira Nerys (Deep Space Nine). Tough, but also smart enough to be willing to learn and grow.

Kai Opaka (Deep Space Nine). Again, not particularly warlike, but that itself is impressive considering the path the Prophets have set her upon. Quiet faith and compassion (even to one's enemies) also take strength.

Mon Mothma (Star Wars). Rarely seen onscreen, she founded the Rebel Alliance, and declared open rebellion against the Empire.

Kira, a Gelfling (The Dark Crystal) She adopts Jen's quest, survives Skeksis torture, and sacrifices herself for Jen to be able to fulfill his destiny.

Sydney Fox (Relic Hunter). Like Lara Droft, but with realistic proportions, realistic clothing, and evidence of an acktual knowledge of archeology and anthropology. If Indiaba Jones needs an heir, I'd put Sydney atop the list.

Jo Lupo (Eureka). Just for the combat skillz.

If we include novel characters (her, they're not comics or anime):

Mara Jade (Star Wars). Warrior, assassin, spy, smuggler, Jedi, and finally mother. A consort more than worthy of Master Skywalker.

EDIT with another thought: Are you counting American-made cartoons as anime?

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:01 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I know it's cheesy as hell, but what about Xena?


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:11 PM

TRAVELER


The Queen of Swords

A Saturday afternoon TV show that lasted about two seasons. There was actually two strong women in this one. I was a little angry when they moved it to very late night. That killed it.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 7:29 PM

ARCADIA


Sydney Bristow - from Alias. She's an incredibly strong woman character. Physically. Mentally. Emotionally.

Laura Roslin - she became president the day she found out she had terminal cancer which also happened to be the day of the apocalypse... 'nuff said.

Liz Lemon - she handles all the craziness life throws at her. Not always well, but she handles it. She's just so *real* that I must acknowledge her. I love 30 Rock.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 8:11 PM

REGINAROADIE


One strong woman on TV that you might not think is strong, but is, is Carmela on THE SOPRANOS. While she has a lot of the characteristics of a typical mob wife, there are times where she does stand up to Tony and not back down. One of my favorite moments was in season 1 in the episode "Isabella", when she sees Tony looking at her in the window, goes over, asks who she is, Tony tells her she's a relative of Doc Cusamano and that they had lunch. She then says "Lunch?" That is without a doubt the best delivery of a single word I have ever seen in a TV show or movie. That one word just send a cold chill through my entire body. "You fucking piece of shit." And then she goes into a tirade that makes Tony shrivel up back into bed, which ends with "If I had any self-respect I'd cut your dick off!!"

Another unconventional strong woman on TV I always loved was Ruth Fisher from SIX FEET UNDER (hey, what can I say, I love HBO). For the most part of the show, she's this incredibly repressed widower who dresses incredibly drab and is overwhelmed by what's happening in the lives of her family. But when the chips are down and they're at their most despondent, she just brings up this incredible reserve of strength that shocks you along with the characters. Like the night before Nate went into surgery at the end of season 2 ("You're not supposed to protect ME, I'M SUPPOSED TO PROTECT YOU. That's what a mother does. She tries. Most of the time she fails, but how are you ever going to feel loved if you don't ever let me try."), or in the season 3 finale when she says plainly "Life doesn't stop. We didn't die." But my personal favorite moments were in the final episodes. Calhoun, if you're reading this, don't highlight.

Select to view spoiler:


At Nate's burial, when she wonders where David is, Keith says that he's in the van and that he couldn't take it. She then says "Yes, well sometimes we can." She says it so matter of factly and with such authority it just shocks you. And then when she's talking to David who at this point is having a meltdown and says that he can't go out there, she replies "Yes you can, you have legs." And then in the finale, when Claire tells her that she's willing to give up everything to take care of her, she tells her "Absolutely not. Go. Live your life." And as she tells Claire why she won't let her give up her new life, you start blubbering a crying alongside Claire.



To me, that scene was more strong and heroic than all the River and Buffy fights combined.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 8:56 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Charlie Baltimore, from Long Kiss Goodnight. When they had so much entanglements trying to get Bourne Identity made, here Jason was turned into a female Charlie, and we have the female version of Jason Bourne.

I didn't particularly care for Red Sonja, but she seemed to kick butt - was she a comic before the movie?

Ultraviolet and Aeon Flux seemed to have nimble combatants.

Does Catwoman count?

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 9:56 PM

WALTZING


KATE from Lost- she's strong smart, and continually evades the law.

ANA LUCIA from Lost- came out as one of the leaders and kicked some island butt, yet wasn't completely emotionless or dead inside.

NADIA SANTOS from Alias- Sydney's spy sister and almost as cool as she is.

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 10:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Louise Baltimore from Millenium.
(seems ANY chick with that last name is tough...)

Eoywn from LoTR, specifically loved how she pulled off being tough as nails without an ounce of the "I wish I was a guy" stuff.

And a definitive shout out to Whoopi Goldberg.
Fatal Beauty, Jumpin Jack Flash, Burglar.
(If you ain't seen it, Burglar is a *must rent*)
Not to mention Guinan.

-F

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 11:02 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Besides Catwoman, Halle seemed to kick butt in Swordfish and her James Bond flik.

Other suggestions:
Carrie Moss as Trinity in Matrix.
Amanda Peet amps her learning curve in Whole 9 yards.
Aishwarya Rai as Mira in Last Legion.
Jodie as Clarice Starling in Silence of the Lambs.
Devon Aoki as Miho in Sin City.
Kiera Knightly as Guinevere in King Arthur.
Jessica Biel in Stealth.
Eowyn in LOTR.
Ellie May in Beverly Hillbillies could rassel and goat rope anybody - the Donna Douglas version.
Lauren Graham in Hostel II.
And for fantasy there was G.I. Jane.

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 11:20 PM

PONYXPRESSINC


Going back a bit Hu San-niang from "The Water Margin."

Quoted from SF > TV >
"The only female hero. As a sop to femininity, she fights with two short lightweight swords, but is just as lethal as the other heroes. Every other female character, good or bad, is destined barely to survive one episode."

I was about nine when I saw it on TV, I just loved Hu San-niang, it was my first introduction to women who didn't just stand around screaming.

Shortly after that there was Charlie’s Angels.

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Friday, November 9, 2007 1:13 AM

HIXIE129


Hermione Granger - the most gifted witch of her generation

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Friday, November 9, 2007 2:09 AM

MUTT999


Milla Jovovich- The Messenger.
Before she was zombie slayer Alice, she kicked some major butt in a suit of armor as Joan of Arc!




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Friday, November 9, 2007 2:55 AM

GRAYFURY


Wow, this list is beter than I thought. I geuss the ladies don't need to be represented in hollywood... they're representing themselves. Woot!

"Smellin' alot of IF comin' offa' this plan!"


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Friday, November 9, 2007 3:39 AM

JONGSSTRAW


How about Gina Torres as Hel, the freedom fighter of future Earth?

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Friday, November 9, 2007 3:42 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Louise Baltimore from Millenium.


It's Cheryl's best role ever...I love that movie!

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Friday, November 9, 2007 4:57 AM

PACHELBEL


What about Buffy's sidekick, Willow (Alyson Hannigan)?

And Jerri Ryan as #7 in Star Trek: Voyager? That's an interesting one. She wen t from human to borg and back again.

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Friday, November 9, 2007 5:34 AM

CLEMENTINE


Don't diss the movies of the 30's. There are a lot of funky strong women in some of the screwball comedies. Not so much with the Kung Fu but they insist that their men play on the level with them.

Hildy Johnson (Rosalind Russell) in His Girl Friday
Linda Seaton (Katherine Hepburn) in Holiday (1938)
Connie Allenbury (Myrna Loy) in Libelled Lady
Ellie Andrews (Claudette Colbert) in It Happened One Night.
and don't forget Mame Denis (Ros again) in Auntie Mame.

People forget, it was really the 50's when the Hayes Code tried to manufacture an Ozzie and Harriet america that women got sidelined.

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Friday, November 9, 2007 6:19 AM

SINGATE


I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. Andrea Parker's portrayal of Miss Parker on The Pretender. Of course it may be fresh in memory because I've been watching all 4 seasons on DVD recently. To my mind one of the stronest, most complex characters in any medium.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Friday, November 9, 2007 6:27 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by singate:
I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. Andrea Parker's portrayal of Miss Parker on The Pretender. Of course it may be fresh in memory because I've been watching all 4 seasons on DVD recently. To my mind one of the stronest, most complex characters in any medium.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.



Oh man, yes!! One of the most underrated and unknown awesome characters! Strong, angry, consequent, witty as hell! Beautiful journey of self-discovery.

I hate how the show messed with what they had. Could have been amazing,but they blundered it all away.

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Friday, November 9, 2007 6:54 AM

SHINYSEVEN2


Homicide: Life on the Street: Howard! Ballard! Stivers!

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Friday, November 9, 2007 8:32 AM

GORRAMGROUPIE


Don't forget Katherine Hepburn in AFrican Queen. Kept putting Bogey in his place.
Lucille Ball in Fancypants. Tough frontier woman who befuddled proper english butler Bob Hope.


"It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain

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Friday, November 9, 2007 8:36 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


I'll second Rosalind's Mame. That's a tornado!

I've always thought Kitty Foyle (Ginger Rogers) was one heck of a woman. She didn't kick butt per se, but she held her own.

In the spirit of the Strike, I'd add Norma Rae (Sally Field).

Has anyone mentioned our dear Scully?

It's hard to add to this list. Is Fried Green Tomatoes too sappy?

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Friday, November 9, 2007 9:03 AM

BBDV


And not one person has mentioned Gillian Anderson as Dana Scully.Strong,independent,intelligent,loyal and totally kick ass.

www.bigbaddaddyvader.com

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Friday, November 9, 2007 9:43 AM

EMPIREX


Quote:

Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:


Has anyone mentioned our dear Scully?




I was wondering when someone was going to mention Agent Scully!!!

Scully was always saving Mulder's butt. She was the better shot, she never batted an eye at decomposing bodies and she could run really fast in high heels.

For shame, folks. Really.



"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Friday, November 9, 2007 10:45 AM

NBZ


I got a question about these strong women.

Are they strong fetishes or strong characters?

In the firefly the only woman who is not a fetish is Zoe. (River was not either, but well the BDM changed that.) In Angel/BtVS are there any strong characters that are NOT fetishes?

"A woman who kicks ass. How good would it be to her her?"

There are very few strong women characters out of there. Not because people don't write them, but because they are turned into fetishes more than characters.

From the original list I would only have Sarah Connor (Pre-chronicles as that could go the other way) as a strong character. Maybe Ellen ripley too. (don't know who Helen is...). Laura Roslin is a strong character from BSG. The other women while being macho, are not really strong characters.

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Friday, November 9, 2007 12:16 PM

WYTCHCROFT


Allegra Gellar from ExistenZ
(jennifer jason leigh - her characters are nearly always 'strong' in some sense)
while jude law is the hapless fella,

Judy Davis in Deconstructing Harry.
Anyone who pulls a gun on Woody Allen and calls him a Mo--erf--ker is fine with me.

As with Jennifer - Judy D also plays strong characters - often stronger than the scripts!!!!!

Both of these films are by men often accused of misogyny - so it's subjective.

sometimes the 'fetish' aspect can be made fun
Angela Robinson's movie D*E*B*S was pretty funny.

and on the - movies made by men/boys sold to men/boys but she's just a freakin force a nature and she takes out all the dumb ass men - well Anglina Jolie makes Tomb Raider (only the first one, mind) work for me.

But BY FAR my favourite most kick ass heroin is Katharine Isabelle as Ginger in Ginger Snaps 1.
(Emily Perkins rules too).

and faruza balk in the craft.

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Friday, November 9, 2007 12:24 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GrayFury:


8. MAX - From Dark Angel

Now you spekink mah langwedge.

Also: Marion Ravenwood!

DAfanChrisisall

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Friday, November 9, 2007 12:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I disagree that Eoywn wouldn't be.

As I remarked, she was who she was, not a guy wannabe, and certainly not a fetish or a fool, either - of course one would have to read to understand where I come from on this, but I think pete jackson did a good job with the screen time she had.


Louise Baltimore wouldn't be neither, but for different reasons.

You'd really have to read the book to really understand her nature, this was a person who was beyond even vicious in description, with an iron will and a stubborn defiance in the face of utterly no hope whatsoever - who lives in a world where suicide is the national pasttime, and because of her efforts despite lack of any hope personally, she's allowed to do anything she damn well pleases, TO anyone she damn well pleases.

"I can slaughter by the hundreds and BC will never upbraid me for it, normally I don't, but some days... on the slidewalks...."

Louise actually goes beyond "strong" into downright psychosis, you really oughta get a copy of the book, Jong.. I think you'd like it.

-F

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Friday, November 9, 2007 1:29 PM

FILLIANGIRL4136


I don't know if it is the fact that I've been in a Wes Anderson mood lately, but we forgot Angelica Houston in any Anderson movie. She is always strong and vocal in her beliefs.

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Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:20 AM

GRAYFURY


I'm sorry, I forgot another one of MY list stipulations... Ass kicking strong, So no "strong willed" women ....take your Molly Pitchers and Harriet Beecher Stowes and cram them. You can feel free to add them to your lists, but all I'm saying is that Leeloo would kick Sylvia Plaths teeth out.

"Smellin' alot of IF comin' offa' this plan!"


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Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:36 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
I got a question about these strong women.

Are they strong fetishes or strong characters?

In the firefly the only woman who is not a fetish is Zoe. (River was not either, but well the BDM changed that.) In Angel/BtVS are there any strong characters that are NOT fetishes?



I'll disagree that Zoe's the only non-fetish character in the series.

Movie-wise, I'll agree that all of them but Zoe were painfully reduced to images. But in the series, I'd disagree.

Inara has a strong character - not the ass-kicking type but definitely not a mere pretty face in a "whore with a heart of gold" role. She has integrity in spades and a sense of independence that's inspiring.

River, we seem to be in agreement about.

Kaylee, too, has more than one angle going for her and one hell of a potential journey basically jumping off the screen, although it's easier to reduce her. Of all the characters, she was the most short-changed, it seems, in terms of developing her immense potential.

So.. the movie does abad job, but I wouldn't put down the series.

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