GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

5 Reasons it sucks being a Joss Whedon fan

POSTED BY: BLACKBEANIE
UPDATED: Friday, May 14, 2021 20:12
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Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:08 AM

BLACKBEANIE

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:36 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


That is a pretty fierce piece, with more than a grain of truth in it, from an opposition point of view.

Doesn't mean we don't like Joss' stuff, tho'...

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Ouch. Someone linked to it on Whedonesque.

*Bombs drop and explode*

XD

As for the article itself... Well, some things ring a bit uncomfortably true.

The criticism on feminism IS accurate, even though I've taken the devil's advocate other places on the board and pointed out how some of the exploitation is supposed to make the viewer feel uncomfortable. But yes, Penny is the woman in the refrigerator, Inara's sponge-bathing scene in Firefly was (according to him) his most carefully filmed scene in the entire series (three TIMES), and Whedon's ass-kicking front-line ladies are pure male fantasy.

On the other hand, even though female leads are becoming increasingly common, most shows still focus on the male character, and the females exist solely to be in a relationship with them. So long as less than 30% of screenwriters are women, this is going to happen, and social stereotypes and tropes or going to exist for a long time even when the numbers equalize. Pirate News posted an article recently that I tore apart, but there was a good point in it: "some girls still want a Mr. Darcy." These ideas and fixations women have about true love and romance have been around for a long time, and it'll be a while longer before we can scrub out the idea of someone taking care of us. It may be "calling Bill Clinton the first black President," as the article says, but I'll take whatever strong female characters I can get at this point.

Also, I like that Whedon kills people. Okay, it's not popular, and he kills likeable characters. But does it have an emotional impact? Um, yes? And that's the POINT. Would you like his shows as much if they didn't grab you emotionally and sometimes skewer those trembling little heartstrings?

Speaking of which. I really haven't been around for much of Whedon apart from Serenity, Dr. Horrible, and Dollhouse. But from what I've seen, though, no one really seems to be defending Dollhouse. Some of us like it, some even hoped for the longest time that yes, it was Fox, and not the premise, but at least on this board it looks like more people DON'T like it than do.

Broad generalizations: guilty. And the article really is quite hostile. I'm sorry, man, but clearly you hate not only most of Whedon's stuff, but also all of Joss Whedon's fans. As such, the title of the article is misleading. It was obviously supposed to be "why JOSS WHEDON sucks" before someone realized holy crap, the flames.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:24 AM

DEWRASTLER


Here's the way I see it:

5) In real life, people die. You can't just walk through a dangerous situation and everyone lives, or get brought back to life, or whatever. I think by not killing people in such situations you actually make it less realistic. This was one of my big problems with the series finale of

Select to view spoiler:


Stargate Atlantis when Ronan was brought back to life on the hive ship. Completely ruined the fact that he gave his life for others



4) Actually, and call me dense if you must, if no one had told me Joss was a feminist I probably wouldn't know. I don't think he writes feminist characters, I think he writes real characters who just happen to be women. Real, as in fully realized. That's both sides of the pendulum. Good/Bad. Happy/Sad.

3) I'm sure there is both sides to this, but I will never claim that everything Joss does is right and perfect

2)Same as above

1) I never try to force Joss's material on anyone, so this is where I got a little offended. Joss's work is on of the many things I enjoy, but I don't demand that all people enjoy it, and I don't think anyone else here does either. I will show his work to my friends because I think they might like it, and if they don't, that's fine. Now if we, the people who want to see more thing from Joss, come out and say that we want a Serenity 2 for example. What's wrong with that? I'm not saying everyone should want and enjoy it, I'm saying me and other fans of this particular work do. How is that different from any other fanbase? Check out the Spider-Man boards after One More Day was released. They were angry over there too. It happens, get over it.

And for what I hope is the last time, I'm going to say this again. I do not blame FOX for anything, and IMHO, any hatred for them should be let go. Most of what I watch is on FOX, and they are simply trying to run a business. They make decisions for the network as a whole, and those are hard decisions. Looking at just Firefly, I would have done something differently. But that is with hindsight and not looking at the whole picture. Am I glad they gave Dollhouse a season 2? Yes, because I like to see Joss and company working. Will I blame FOX if it fails? No, because not only did FOX greenlight the project, they gave them a season 2. And for everyone who talks about the Friday night slot here's two things to think about: DVR numbers are looked at now, so that's not an excuse. Also, there have been numerous successful shows on Friday night. Right now, those are on other networks. There was a time that was X-files, on FOX. It happens.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:33 AM

ZEEK


This author clearly wrote the title for the article and then went off on a tangent. He seems to hate Joss and everything he stands for. How is that a problem for his fans?

I totally disagree that Joss fans bow down and worship everything he does. Dollhouse is the most obvious example. There have been threads about everyone's least favorite episode of different Joss series. We don't worship everything he ties his name to.

The author can choose to hate Joss and his fans all he wants. That's his right.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:47 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:

1) I never try to force Joss's material on anyone, so this is where I got a little offended.



Neither do I, but some do. I've tried to introduce Firefly to people, and they flat-out refuse because they've had a bad experience with an over-zealous Browncoat. Browncoats are still considered a bunch of rabid OCD freaks on most film sites, and if you look back at some of the insane hyperbole folks have used to promote the show, it's easy to see why.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:15 AM

TUJIAOZUO


Wow, someone's bitter.

I always hate it when someone paints a broad generalization of fans. The fact is often that there is only a small number of sheer assholes/purists/ZOMG!!!1JossIsAGodAndFanFicIsMyLife!, but they get the most attention and give everyone else a bad rep.


Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:26 AM

STORYMARK


Yeah, but with Browncoats, it may be a small faction of over-zealous nuts - but they are HARD CORE about being obnoxious. If I hadn't already been a fan, they might have scared me off.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:40 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

The criticism on feminism IS accurate...


It IS.

As irony would have it, I just got quite a chuckle out of realizing Joss only very recently poked a little fun with his own feminism on last week's episode of Dollhouse, as he had the good Professor trying Kiki to sleep with him. As his means of seduction/persuasion he's explaining Chaucer's The Wife of Bath to her:

KIKI: You're saying she uses the sex to get what she wants?
PROF: She doesn't allow men to define here. She knows she's the one with the real power. (...) She can get what she wants. She knows how to get it.

It's a faux sense of empowerment. Kiki, like Chaucer's Alison, is duped into believing she's the one in control (getting men to do what she wants); whereas, in reality, it's the men that manipulate her into doing what they want from her (the sex; which, if the women really had the power, is a step they could forego to begin with). Whedon's female leads are a lot like what the Prof is trying to peddle to Kiki: they're generally hot, bendy, nubile ass-kickers that can wrap their legs around you like... whatever floats your fantasy. All in that selfsame name of empowerment, of course. But, in the end, they're just in the same boat as Kiki and Alison.

Why's everyone making a fuss, though? Perhaps 'Joss' and 'feminism' have been mentioned in the same sentence, once or twice. But a man who can use his own show to wink at his own alleged feminism is really okay in my book.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:09 PM

TUJIAOZUO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, but with Browncoats, it may be a small faction of over-zealous nuts - but they are HARD CORE about being obnoxious. If I hadn't already been a fan, they might have scared me off.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



I've been a member of a few obnoxious fandoms, and have had my brush with some truly horrible fans, but I guess I've just never met a HARDCORE obnoxious as hell Firefly fan (though I have heard of it). Either that or I did, but they paled in comparison to some of the other non compos mentis fans I know.

Of course now that I said this, I will probably meet a super obnoxious browncoat that the next Con I attend.


Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:30 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, but with Browncoats, it may be a small faction of over-zealous nuts - but they are HARD CORE about being obnoxious. If I hadn't already been a fan, they might have scared me off.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



I've been a member of a few obnoxious fandoms, and have had my brush with some truly horrible fans, but I guess I've just never met a HARDCORE obnoxious as hell Firefly fan (though I have heard of it). Either that or I did, but they paled in comparison to some of the other non compos mentis fans I know.

Of course now that I said this, I will probably meet a super obnoxious browncoat that the next Con I attend.


Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash



Well, you may have met an over-zealous one, but since you are already a Browncoat, they'd have no need to turn on the crazy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:54 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Steinem, Gloria Steinem, license to bullshit

Bobby "Fanboy" Roberts worships Joss. Probably works for Joss. Reverse psyop marketing. With cussin.

Feminazism is a CIA plot to destroy America, just like LSD. Ask Gloria Steinham. And the suckers fell for it.

Buffy was cute, because it was so RIDICULOUS. But now it's gone way too far. It's not funny any more. 100 lb chicks beating up 250 lb roidheads? Not without a gun they won't.

Joss is just in it to make a few millions bucks. Does Joss' wife work? Fuck no. Woman's place is in the home, making babies, raising a family of sane healthy patriotic asskickers who love her and will take care of her, while her HUSBAND is working and paying NO STINKIN TAXES. Frakkin juice.

www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=aKfXSvX_LeKQtgf86pGbBw&sa=X&oi=spell&re
snum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA8QBSgA&q=gloria+steinem+cia&spell=1


www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=timothy+leary+cia+agent&aq=0&oq=timothy+
leary+cia&aqi=g1


Quote:


Trading Juice: Aaron Russo assassinated by Little Nicky Rockefeller

In a later conversation, Rockefeller asked Russo what he thought women's liberation was about. Russo's response that he thought it was about the right to work and receive equal pay as men, just as they had won the right to vote, caused Rockefeller to laughingly retort, "You're an idiot! Let me tell you what that was about, we the Rockefeller's funded that, we funded women's lib, we're the one's who got all of the newspapers and television - the Rockefeller Foundation."

Rockefeller told Russo of two primary reasons why the elite bankrolled women's lib, one because before women's lib the bankers couldn't tax half the population and two because it allowed them to get children in school at an earlier age, enabling them to be indoctrinated into accepting the state as the primary family, breaking up the traditional family model.

This revelation dovetails previous admissions on behalf of feminist pioneer Gloria Steinem (pictured) that the CIA bankrolled Ms. Magazine as part of the same agenda of breaking up traditional family models.

Rockefeller was often keen to stress his idea that "the people have to be ruled" by an elite and that one of the tools of such power was population reduction, that there were "too many people in the world," and world population numbers should be reduced by at least half.

Russo states that Rockefeller told him, "Eleven months before 9/11 happened there was going to be an event and out of that event we were going to invade Afghanistan to run pipelines through the Caspian sea, we were going to invade Iraq to take over the oil fields and establish a base in the Middle East, and we'd go after Chavez in Venezuela."

Rockefeller also told Russo that he would see soldiers looking in caves in Afghanistan and Pakistan for Osama bin Laden and that there would be an "Endless war on terror where there's no real enemy and the whole thing is a giant hoax," so that "the government could take over the American people," according to Russo, who said that Rockefeller was cynically laughing and joking as he made the astounding prediction.

During one conversation, Rockefeller asked Russo if he was interested in joining the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) but Russo rejected the invitation, saying he had no interest in "enslaving the people" to which Rockefeller coldly questioned why he cared about the "serfs."

"I used to say to him what's the point of all this," states Russo, "you have all the money in the world you need, you have all the power you need, what's the point, what's the end goal?" to which Rockefeller replied (paraphrasing), "The end goal is to get everybody chipped, to control the whole society, to have the bankers and the elite people control the world."

www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/290107rockefellergoal.htm




Murdered for a movie

Presidential candidate Aaron Russo Assassination Plot Trial
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=aaron+russo+murdered&aq=0&oq=aaron+russo
&aqi=g10

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:40 PM

BYTEMITE


...Okay, PN, look. Feminazis are intolerable, and the first feminists also had a chilling tendency to write books advocating eugenics and birthcontrol and abortion not for female empowerment, but for plain simple population reduction. And that does raise some questions about the legitimacy of just what they were really trying to ACCOMPLISH with feminism.

But 1) please cut out women's suffrage from your argument, and

2) even before feminism, not all women fit into that little box you constructed. Joan of Arc died for not fitting into that box, and since you're religious, I point out that she was a SAINT.

I find your vision oppressive. I also add, against the government, you fellas need all the damn help you can get. Lastly, I know, for a FACT that there are some women who should never get married or have kids. And I know this because I'm one of them, and I have MADE that choice, because I'm crazy and I would be incredibly irresponsible. There are other women who would make this same choice, perhaps for different reasons, but that choice should be respected. As should a woman who chooses to have a career, or a man who chooses to NOT have a career and be a stay-at-home dad.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
that there are some women who should never get married or have kids. And I know this because I'm one of them, and I have MADE that choice, because I'm crazy and I would be incredibly irresponsible.

To make such a statement & choice proves you are neither, merely prudent. In time this may change. Kudos for your self-awareness.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:40 PM

HOPERULES


Rough little article, but it does bring up some interesting (possibly true) points. Number 5 really hits home to me. Some the air went out of Dr. Horrible for me at the end. I know the last song was really clever but I was still so surprised by the ending I was not paying much attention. It was like Hamlet ending as a Three Stooges Movie or better yet a Three Stooges Movie ending as Hamlet.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Re: Feminism.

Yanno, I really liked Zoe, she was an atypical but realistic character, career military without an army to serve, stoic - but without being unfeminine, leastways in my opinion.

Kaylee was of course more my speed, gearhead and more or less Anarchist, all free spirited n stuff.

One of the things I held against the BDM was in fact turning River into Buffy, rather than something more complex and interesting.

I've never really been much of a fan of Whedons other stuff, especially Buffy, while admittedly he makes decent stuff, it's not MY kinda stuff, but Firefly was definitely above average in its portrayal of female characters, up to and including Yo-Saf-Brig, cause I've run into MORE than a few of those via the office politics my ex had to deal with in the white collar world, and I tellya, Mal had the right idea - they can't play you if they're unconscious, lol.


-Frem

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:03 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

One of the things I held against the BDM was in fact turning River into Buffy, rather than something more complex and interesting.


You saw something different coming from the series? It was the logical Whedon extension of the origin, man. To say otherwise is to project.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 9, 2021 5:38 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

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Monday, May 10, 2021 1:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Sure he did.

I don't think Joss could have done to Gal Gadot's career what WW1984 did to it if he tried.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Monday, May 10, 2021 7:40 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
Quote:

Trading Juice: Aaron Russo assassinated by Little Nicky Rockefeller

In a later conversation, Rockefeller asked Russo what he thought women's liberation was about. Russo's response that he thought it was about the right to work and receive equal pay as men, just as they had won the right to vote, caused Rockefeller to laughingly retort, "You're an idiot! Let me tell you what that was about, we the Rockefeller's funded that, we funded women's lib, we're the one's who got all of the newspapers and television - the Rockefeller Foundation."

Rockefeller told Russo of two primary reasons why the elite bankrolled women's lib, one because before women's lib the bankers couldn't tax half the population and two because it allowed them to get children in school at an earlier age, enabling them to be indoctrinated into accepting the state as the primary family, breaking up the traditional family model.

This revelation dovetails previous admissions on behalf of feminist pioneer Gloria Steinem (pictured) that the CIA bankrolled Ms. Magazine as part of the same agenda of breaking up traditional family models.

Rockefeller was often keen to stress his idea that "the people have to be ruled" by an elite and that one of the tools of such power was population reduction, that there were "too many people in the world," and world population numbers should be reduced by at least half.

Russo states that Rockefeller told him, "Eleven months before 9/11 happened there was going to be an event and out of that event we were going to invade Afghanistan to run pipelines through the Caspian sea, we were going to invade Iraq to take over the oil fields and establish a base in the Middle East, and we'd go after Chavez in Venezuela."

Rockefeller also told Russo that he would see soldiers looking in caves in Afghanistan and Pakistan for Osama bin Laden and that there would be an "Endless war on terror where there's no real enemy and the whole thing is a giant hoax," so that "the government could take over the American people," according to Russo, who said that Rockefeller was cynically laughing and joking as he made the astounding prediction.

During one conversation, Rockefeller asked Russo if he was interested in joining the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) but Russo rejected the invitation, saying he had no interest in "enslaving the people" to which Rockefeller coldly questioned why he cared about the "serfs."

"I used to say to him what's the point of all this," states Russo, "you have all the money in the world you need, you have all the power you need, what's the point, what's the end goal?" to which Rockefeller replied (paraphrasing), "The end goal is to get everybody chipped, to control the whole society, to have the bankers and the elite people control the world."

www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/290107rockefellergoal.htm




Murdered for a movie

Presidential candidate Aaron Russo Assassination Plot Trial
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=aaron+russo+murdered&aq=0&oq
=aaron+russo&aqi=g10

Well that is a fairly good explanation. But it does miss the relationship of single income earner families with decent pay, to doubling the workforce and halving the pay, requiring 2-earner households because women wanted to work, too.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 8:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Well, this thread aged well. Like, prophetically so.


Random things about Firefly that make me miss ' the good old days '.

YouTube channel Unsafe Space has one host, Carter, who clearly is a Browncoat. Displays a Jayne hat in the background when he's doing his livestreams. He'll even drop an occasional movie or tv quote / reference.


Just today, on the Sebastian Gorka show, of all places, he had a guest who quite intentionally said " Can't stop the signal ". What more, it was his delivery, the way he half paused, and then chuckled afterwards, made it clear ( to me ) that he knew Seb got the meaning as well. Seb's about my age, has very similar taste in music and sci-fi shows as well.


*sigh*




Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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