GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Why was this show ever cancelled? just finished watching the set

POSTED BY: MATHEWJ
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 13:12
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10346
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Monday, March 22, 2004 5:41 PM

MATHEWJ


that I got from netflix.com and must say, while the theme music is rather bad, the overall plot was more than decent, and much better than 99.999% of all the crap on TV today, generally I limit myself to CSI, Law and Order and other realistic shows, but when my friend at work said I had to see it I took him up on his recommendation and am very pleased yet disappointed that I did.

I saw that there is news of a movie, will this definately come about? hopefully it will add to the original story and also lead into another TV show...

oh well hopefully things work out with the movie as IMHO this was one of the more promising shows.


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Monday, March 22, 2004 5:48 PM

BROOKIE


Quote:

Originally posted by MathewJ:
...while the theme music is rather bad...




I can't believe i just read that. "The Ballad of Serenity" is by far the greatest theme song i have ever heard. It fits the show perfectly. The theme song perfectly reflects what was lost in the war and what Malcom now faces (IMO).

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Monday, March 22, 2004 5:55 PM

NOOCYTE


Welcome to the Browncoat ranks, MathewJ!

For the shiny things you said about our show, I'm willing to grant a waiver on the requisite *THWACK* for calling the beloved Ballad of Serenity 'rather bad' (odd that it didn't grow on you as the show progressed; that's usually been the case even for folks who weren't so sanguine about it at first).

The film is indeed greenlit, and, by all (maddeningly sketchy, but very authentic-feeling and generally well-corroborated) accounts, nicely into pre-production. Looks like it's gonna happen (all other things being equal, the gods willing...). Nice that you got in toward the end of the roller-coaster ride we've all been on for the last year and change!

And, by all means, do tell a friend or twenty!

Keep flyin'!



Department of Redundancy Department

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Monday, March 22, 2004 5:57 PM

GRIMCHAOS


Quote:

Originally posted by Brookie:
Quote:

Originally posted by MathewJ:
...while the theme music is rather bad...


I can't believe i just read that. "The Ballad of Serenity" is by far the greatest theme song i have ever heard. It fits the show perfectly. The theme song perfectly reflects what was lost in the war and what Malcom now faces (IMO).


Everyone i borrowed my dvd to hated it at first but by the last episode they were singing it.
I liked the song from the begining

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Monday, March 22, 2004 5:59 PM

MATHEWJ


Sorry, didn't know my comment on the theme would strike a nerve...actually I really shouldn't comment as I never bothered to listen to the whole theme, as soon as it came on I would skip past as I just cannot stand that style of music...

With re. to the show, I just cannot get past how it pulled me in, I was always a big sci fi fan, but this really wasn't a sci fi show per say, I mean it was, but it wasn't uber geeky like so many of them can be...all in all I hope the movie pans out and it turns into more TV shows :)..I need some closure at least!

thanks

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Monday, March 22, 2004 6:35 PM

SUCCATASH



There's a cool Chinese banjo riff in the song.


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Monday, March 22, 2004 6:46 PM

PEACE


Every since I read your post, the "Ballad of Serenity" has been playing in my head-- it hooks you if you give it a chance.

It also helps that they got a good singer for the song when the show aired-- Joss Whedon sings it on the DVD in the extras-- let's just say I'm glad he's sticking to screenwriting and producing....

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

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Monday, March 22, 2004 6:52 PM

RKLENSETH


Welcome to our ranks. Remember to convert your friends, family, and random strangers on the street. Hell, convert everyone you meet.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Monday, March 22, 2004 7:30 PM

SHINY


Welcome to the ranks of us loyal Browncoats, Mathew! We'll forgive the crack about the theme song if you recruit a few more fans!

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:47 AM

KALIMEERI


You know, if someone had told me this was a "western" before I watched it, I wouldn't have. I abhor westerns, and haven't watched one since the "Maverick" and "Rawhide" days. Neither do I particularly care for bluegrass/country (aversion therapy courtesy of an ex-spouse).

That's the trouble with "labeling".

That said, I watched the entire series (okay, more than once) without ever connecting the term "western" until I saw it in a review. And by then it was too late; I've become an obsessite.

Firefly isn't strictly a western, it's a beautifully original treatment of a number of different elements, done extremely well so as you don't even think "what?". It has the charm of a Final Fantasy game, the mixture of story and swords and airships and memorable characters that has made that series a standout.

Enough to make you say, "Huh."

Don't tell your friends it's a western. Just tell them to watch, and to close their eyes and listen.



Jen dao mei.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:15 AM

MATHEWJ


I agree that had I known this had "western" flare I might not have been inclined to watch it, even though in some cases I do enjoy westerns (Clint Eastwood, Toumbstone, the new HBO series). I always thought it was odd that in the future there would be a return to the western way of life, but the more I watched the show the more it grew on me...

I will try and do my best in bringing new people to the show.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:42 AM

TRASK43


I know its been talked about before but I think overall the main problem the show had is its just such a hard sell. I have to admit when I first heard of the show I wasn't really interested in seeing it and even now its still pretty hard to describe it to someone and get them interested straight away. But as we all know as soon as someone has sat down and watched a few eps their hooked.

www.summer-glau.com

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:54 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Welcome to the board MathewJ. Good to have another fan w/ us.

I personally like the "Ballad of Serenity". I have never really cared for that sort of music, and the first time I heard it, I just kind of shrugged and went right into watching the show. The second time I heard it, I thought it was kind of catchy and that it was okay. It grows on you. Now I love it, and sing right along everytime I watch one of the episodes on DVD.

You know as much as we do on why Fox execs in their infinite (or would that be finite?) wisdom decided to cancel the show. They claim bad ratings caused them to cancel the show, but one need look no further than poor handling by Fox to see why the show did poorly. The scrapped the original pilot, "Serenity", and made Joss come up w/ a new pilot to fit a one hour time slot in one weekend; that episode was "Train Job". They then aired episodes out of order, and preempted the show several times for baseball. Add to that the time slot of death, Friday nights at 8 EST. Not sure how they thought they would reach their target demographic at that time.

Anyway, on to the positive. Yes, the movie has been greenlighted by Universal. The budget is 35 million, and it appears that w/ the exception of Alan (Wash) & Ron (Book) everyone is onboard to do the movie. Joss is promising great things, and Universal had him write the new script in such a way as to "springboard" into a new TV series.

Things are far brighter now then they were in the winter of 2002-2003 when we were kneedeep in postcards during the campaign to save the show. You have come at a good time.

Look around, post, and make yourself at home.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:18 AM

KALIMEERI


Actually, when you think about it, a return to the way our civilization progressed is not so wild. Settlers would have to use what was cheap and available, and what had worked in the past. If you have no regular supplies of fuel, etc. coming in, animals serve a multitude of purposes. Not to mention that the 'old west' is a romantic concept and ingrained in the common imagination. People who were "born 40 years too late", so to speak, might embrace an opportunity to play cowboy.



Jen dao mei.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:22 AM

KALIMEERI


I sing it, too. Every time.

Jen dao mei.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:53 AM

METAPHORE


Heck i find myself singing it in elevators, in line at the grocery store, during se....errr great song!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:02 AM

CARTAGIA


Quote:

Originally posted by kalimeeri:
Actually, when you think about it, a return to the way our civilization progressed is not so wild. Settlers would have to use what was cheap and available, and what had worked in the past. If you have no regular supplies of fuel, etc. coming in, animals serve a multitude of purposes. Not to mention that the 'old west' is a romantic concept and ingrained in the common imagination. People who were "born 40 years too late", so to speak, might embrace an opportunity to play cowboy.



Jen dao mei.



I'm not certain but I think it was Robert Heinlein who first came to the conclusion that frontier civilization would resemble what we think of as 'western' civilization. When you are all alone out on the fringe, with your life and those of your family depending upon the equipment you have, you want to know that it will almost never break and that if you are unlucky enough for it to happen, then you or one of your neighbors can fix it themselves, not have to ship it back to some tech shop to get repaired in a month or so, if you are lucky.


Simon: I've never shot anyone before.

Book: I was there, son. I'm fair sure you haven't shot anyone yet.


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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:35 AM

SERENA


Quote:

Originally posted by trask43:
I know its been talked about before but I think overall the main problem the show had is its just such a hard sell. I have to admit when I first heard of the show I wasn't really interested in seeing it and even now its still pretty hard to describe it to someone and get them interested straight away. But as we all know as soon as someone has sat down and watched a few eps their hooked.



That is my experience exactly. If I try to describe it to them, it sounds lame, but I know if they'd just watch it they'd love it. The difficulty is getting them to watch.

And, welcome MathewJ! Sit down and gab with us for a while. We like gabbing

Please help Haken keep this site running by clicking on a google ad on the side of the page!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:59 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Serena:
Quote:

Originally posted by trask43:
I know its been talked about before but I think overall the main problem the show had is its just such a hard sell. I have to admit when I first heard of the show I wasn't really interested in seeing it and even now its still pretty hard to describe it to someone and get them interested straight away. But as we all know as soon as someone has sat down and watched a few eps their hooked.



That is my experience exactly. If I try to describe it to them, it sounds lame, but I know if they'd just watch it they'd love it. The difficulty is getting them to watch.

And, welcome MathewJ! Sit down and gab with us for a while. We like gabbing



Too true.

It seems the second you say "sci fi" you lose part of your audience, and when "western" slips out, the other part loses interest. They seem to be two very odd formulas to mix together, but as we all know, they worked great together. Kind of like chocolate and peanut butter.

I have given it quite a bit of thought and quite honestly, the western theme seems to me to be the most likely way that frontier civilization would be in reality. It just makes sense. The same spirit that settled the Old West here in America would be the same spirit that settled frontier worlds.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:52 AM

SBWATCHER


hi fellow browncoats,

long time reader first time post. As soon as I heard Joss was having a new show, I knew I was going to love it based on my experience with BtVS and, to a lesser extent, Angel. Like the rest of you, I wept when Firefly was cancelled, rejoiced when the DVD set was released, and blubbered for joy when the movie was announced.

I can count my sister-in-law as a convert, but she is mad at us for addicting her to a cancelled show and I loaned disk 1 to my chinese lab-mate. I often ask her to translate for me.

As far as the theme song goes, I love it, loved it from the first time I heard it. It never gets old and I listen to it every time I watch an episode -- which is often! My sister-in-law was visiting recently and we were watching "Heart of Gold". When the song started, I closed my eyes and began swaying (I can't believe I just admitted that). She looked at me and said "all you need is a lighter!"

Very much looking forward to 2005 and, hopefully, a shiny new series after that. Wish we could all watch it together. If there are any browncoats in the South Bend, IN area, drop me a line.

take care ...

"What's sanguine mean again?"

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:57 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Welcome to the board SBWatcher. Glad to have you w/ us. Always a pleasure to see a new face.

Enjoy the board. Hope to see you around often.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:02 AM

SBWATCHER


Hi Browncoat1,

thank you for the kind welcome ... hope to be around often!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:15 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by SBWatcher:
Hi Browncoat1,

thank you for the kind welcome ... hope to be around often!



No problem. We are a friendly bunch around here.



"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:11 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

No problem. We are a friendly bunch around here.



Well, we got one that's kinda horrific...

Welcome SBWatcher! Don't forget to recruit a new fan a week until the movie is released!

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:54 PM

ECMORGAN69


Welcome to MathewJ and SBWatcher! Hope you all enjoy the board

Mathew, the show was cancelled for one reason; Dung-flinging Monkeys in charge at FOX TV, The Serial Killer of Quality TV

Keep Flying...

They can have my "Firefly" DVDs when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers....

Oh yeah, you, FOX TV!!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:26 PM

KARENKAY99


Quote:

Originally posted by kalimeeri:
You know, if someone had told me this was a "western" before I watched it, I wouldn't have. I abhor westerns, and haven't watched one since the "Maverick" and "Rawhide" days. Neither do I particularly care for bluegrass/country (aversion therapy courtesy of an ex-spouse).



me too!! i grew up on bonanza and rawhide. i thought i'd had enough.
however since i fell in love with firefly, i'm thinking of giving deadwood on hbo a try. it started last sunday and i missed it but it looks like they are going to run it on hbo on demand.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:17 PM

DARKJESTER


Quote:

If there are any browncoats in the South Bend, IN area, drop me a line.


Hi SBWatcher, and Welcome!! I'm in Goshen, 30 miles east of you. So far, I've noticed posts by people in Gary and Indy. There are a few Hoosier Browncoats at least. And you might want to search out the threads for the Browncoat Ball, in Chicago later this year.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:06 PM

DARTHVEGAS


It's light years ahead of the theme to Enterprise's 80's power balad

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:33 PM

THEFOP


When I first heard about firefly, I can't honestly say that I thought much of it. My reaction was more or less "space ships and horses? Yeah...great"

Then my roommate started showing me episodes of Buffy this past fall. We watched a few seasons of it, and then he comes to me with this big frickin' grin on, and says he has something new for us to watch. When he told me what it was, I have to admit I was a bit incredulous, but I figured I'd watch it with him

5 minutes in, I was hooked. I tend to sing the ballad of serenity quite a bit, and generally accost random people on the street with quotes, should the spring to mind. I'm waiting for the movie with anticipation, and hoping beyond hope that the movie leads to a new series, which this time will not be cancelled prematurely.

If I hadn't decided that I could get a much nicer house if I rented with other people, I probably would never have seen firefly.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:43 PM

BAMADAVE


to answer your original question as to why this show was cancelled, because nobody f'ing watched. all the other reasons are just excuses meant to obscure the fact that the fans of the show let it down.

aired out of order - so what. watch the episodes in their intended order and the story is still told out of order. they flash back or reveal details later in the series that you don't get in the pilot. also, each episode stands well enough on its own that it doesn't require seeing the previous one.

pre-empted for baseball - who cares? sci-fi fans can wait 16 years between star wars films and still manage to figure out when to go to the theater in record numbers, but can't seem to figure out that firefly will be on again in two weeks?

time slot of death - well either it is a great show or it isn't. if people can't be bothered to make time to watch it on a friday night, they must not really think it is a great show.

didn't know it was on - one of my favorites. is the network supposed to come to your house and change the channel for you? every newspaper and countless websites all have tv grids. people can't take one minute out of their day to see what is on?

fox just wants to make more reality crap - close, but missing the point. fox just wants to make money. they had to hire extra people to rake up all the cash that american idol show is bringing in. there is not an evil plot at the network to only make bad tv. they are there to make a profit, and you can bet that if firefly was getting top 20 numbers that they would be more than happy to keep flying.

etc etc etc. this might seem harsh but i think it is worth pointing out. firefly was cancelled because the fans let it down. they didn't watch, and that is what you get. sadly, since people would rather say f fox and the people at fox are morons and any other thing besides 'it's our fault', it will happen again and again. rather than focus all of that energy tilting at the fox windmill, they should be trying to figure out why it is that sci-fi fans couldn't be bothered to tune in. until that is figured out, it will just keep happening. ask the fandoms at dark angel, odyssey5, the lone gunmen, millenium, harsh realm, space above and beyond, veritas the quest, american gothic, etc. etc. etc.

hey, look over there at that clever new wonderfalls show that nobody is watching. then again, people probably don't know when it is on. or they are too busy on friday. or it might have been advertised wrong. or fox might really want it to fail. or this. or that. or the other.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:28 PM

ERELLEVENT


Hey all just came across this site but iv been watching firefly since it was on fox. this looks like a good website and u even got our own fox exec posting on here (bamadave). anyways i just wanted to say i realy like the show and cant wait for the movie its going to rock.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:06 PM

HAPLO721


Well, if people want to completely sacrifice any chance at a social life, then yes, they can stay home every Friday at 8. Otherwise, you tape/TiVo the show or miss it. In either case, it only matters if you have a Neilson box on your TV.

Early: You ever been raped, Kaylee?
Kaylee: You know, it's funny you should mention that... ever heard of the Fox network?

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:08 PM

RKLENSETH


Quote:

Originally posted by bamadave:
to answer your original question as to why this show was cancelled, because nobody f'ing watched. all the other reasons are just excuses meant to obscure the fact that the fans of the show let it down.

aired out of order - so what. watch the episodes in their intended order and the story is still told out of order. they flash back or reveal details later in the series that you don't get in the pilot. also, each episode stands well enough on its own that it doesn't require seeing the previous one.

pre-empted for baseball - who cares? sci-fi fans can wait 16 years between star wars films and still manage to figure out when to go to the theater in record numbers, but can't seem to figure out that firefly will be on again in two weeks?

time slot of death - well either it is a great show or it isn't. if people can't be bothered to make time to watch it on a friday night, they must not really think it is a great show.

didn't know it was on - one of my favorites. is the network supposed to come to your house and change the channel for you? every newspaper and countless websites all have tv grids. people can't take one minute out of their day to see what is on?

fox just wants to make more reality crap - close, but missing the point. fox just wants to make money. they had to hire extra people to rake up all the cash that american idol show is bringing in. there is not an evil plot at the network to only make bad tv. they are there to make a profit, and you can bet that if firefly was getting top 20 numbers that they would be more than happy to keep flying.

etc etc etc. this might seem harsh but i think it is worth pointing out. firefly was cancelled because the fans let it down. they didn't watch, and that is what you get. sadly, since people would rather say f fox and the people at fox are morons and any other thing besides 'it's our fault', it will happen again and again. rather than focus all of that energy tilting at the fox windmill, they should be trying to figure out why it is that sci-fi fans couldn't be bothered to tune in. until that is figured out, it will just keep happening. ask the fandoms at dark angel, odyssey5, the lone gunmen, millenium, harsh realm, space above and beyond, veritas the quest, american gothic, etc. etc. etc.

hey, look over there at that clever new wonderfalls show that nobody is watching. then again, people probably don't know when it is on. or they are too busy on friday. or it might have been advertised wrong. or fox might really want it to fail. or this. or that. or the other.



I think the fans of the show proved you wrong. We kept the show alive. Look at the DVD sales. I know for one that I watched the show when it was aired. Now we are getting a movie. If the fans let it down then how is it that it is still alive today?

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:10 PM

BAMADAVE


RKLENSETH,

i think you are missing my point. the question was why was this show cancelled. it is a question that has been asked on this board, and many others, many times. i think it is time that we admit why it was cancelled.

the fan support after the fact has been remarkable. but it was too little too late. getting a movie is amazing, and you can bet that i will see it multiple times.

still, by the time the movie hits theaters two and a half seasons will have passed with no firefly. can you honestly say that two hours of a movie in lieu of 53 episodes is a victory? 53 freaking episodes! if all of the support that has brought about the dvd sales and the deal for the movie was there when it was on the air, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:36 PM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE


You failed to mention the lack of advertising. Star Wars fans know to show up at the theater because (a) they know a new Star Wars film is out there due to the ridiculous amount of advertising put out there and (b) they know how to look up movie listings. A new show on a Friday night (when not many people are channel surfing) with no advertising to speak of, and what little there is being incredibly poor? How could that possibly fail?

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:14 PM

BAMADAVE


quoting my original post

"didn't know it was on - one of my favorites. is the network supposed to come to your house and change the channel for you? every newspaper and countless websites all have tv grids. people can't take one minute out of their day to see what is on?"

you might not agree with it, but i mentioned it.

i would also disagree with the idea that it got no advertising. i remember seeing commercials for it. it is also worth noting that i have seen both the no advertising reason for the cancellation, and the it was advertised wrong reason. now, it can't be both.

and i stand by the argument that all of these only serve to obscure the obvious. the fans were not there in sufficient numbers to keep it on the air.

if everyone is so bent on sending fox a message, how about all of the firefly fans tune in to wonderfalls and support tim minear? he's a part of firefly. do something positive for a fellow browncoat. one of the major players having a successful show on the air isn't going to hurt things when they start shopping the relaunch of the series.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:25 PM

ZORIAH


Actually, the only people that your post applies to are those nielsen box owners who didn't tune in to the show.

There are only 5100 households with those things and they are the ONLY people who count as far as ratings go unfortunately.

If 10 million fans watched but only a few had the all important distinction of being a nielsen family.....well then.

So please don't berate people for not watching the show, I'm sure the majority of us would do anything to take part in ratings reporting so that quality shows like Firefly and Angel would stay on the air.

People have now galvanised to try and get everyone to support and watch Wonderfalls (which is in that timeslot of death on Friday), however in the end the networks will do what they want to do.

Angel was cancelled and it had nothing to do with its ratings(the only WB returning drama to show a ratings gain from last year). Tru Calling seems to have been given a chance when Firefly wasn't.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:31 PM

BAMADAVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Haplo721:
Well, if people want to completely sacrifice any chance at a social life, then yes, they can stay home every Friday at 8. Otherwise, you tape/TiVo the show or miss it. In either case, it only matters if you have a Neilson box on your TV.



ah yes, the i don't have a nielsen box excuse. i had almost forgotten about that one. once again all of the excuses seem to trip over each other.

as was pointed out earlier, look at what the fandom has done. keeping the show alive. sales of the dvds. getting a movie made. and we are right back to what would have happened if all of these people were gathering new viewers for the original series? think they might have tripped over some nielsen families? could they have indirectly helped to bump the ratings? i think so.

and you also fail to ask the more important question, why weren't the sci-fi fans that do have nielsen boxes watching firefly? that is the point of all of this. as much as this is about firefly, it is also about the next really good show that is going to get the shaft from a lazy/can't be bothered sci-fi community.

and i am well aware that when you point a finger, three more are pointing right back at you. i count myself as part of that community. i just saw babylon 5 for the first time this year. i dropped the ball on that one. but i now also make it a point to know when new shows are coming out. like wonderfalls (i'm shameless). and to tune in and give them a fair shot.

the point i want to make is that there is something to be learned from all of this, and it isn't new ways to make fuq fox palatable for censored message boards. it is that there will be another show almost as good as firefly at some point, and everyone should be watching it from the start.

wonderfalls

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:37 PM

ERELLEVENT


Well bamadave i guess it will be ur fault if wonderfalls gets canceled cause u didnt do enough.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:47 PM

ZORIAH


Bamadave, trying to make people feel guilty collectively and accusing them of making excuses is not a great way to get them on board with your ideas.

However, (I could be wrong) I think I get the gist where you are coming from. So often people don't get behind a show until it's too late. The buzz starts happening after the show's already on the bubble or even stopped airing altogether. I think that fans of quality shows are starting to realise that fan hype and buzz are very important, even prior to a show premiering, and that with the internet as a ready resource it's important to not only keep informed but also to inform others of shows worthy of our attention and support.

There was no way I could have helped Firefly by watching it when it aired as I live in New Zealand and do not get Fox here, but as soon as it came out on DVD I ordered myself a copy.

You are talking about being more proactive rather than reactive I think.


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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 2:35 AM

KALIMEERI


"In this quadrant, we play nice. Got enemies enough as it is." --Mal, "War Stories"

Jen dao mei.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:12 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I watched every episode but one when they originally aired, and only missed that one due to a screw-up with my VCR, so I can't be the one bamadave is talking about. I have never known a Nielson family in my life, and I'm 53, which is not even the demographic that I'm sure FOX was aiming at for "Firefly" (or any other show for that matter).

My memories of favored canceled shows goes way back, and they aren't all SF shows either. I doubt anyone around here remembers a wonderful comedy that premiered on NBC in 1970 called "My World, and Welcome To It." It happened to be on opposite "Mary Tyler Moore," so scheduling decisions by the networks do make a difference. And if you do not have a Nielson box, or know anyone who does, you will never have an effective voice in networks' programming decisions. Period.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:56 AM

KALIMEERI


I remember "My World!" Very fondly.

Jen dao mei.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:56 AM

BAMADAVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Zoriah:
Bamadave, trying to make people feel guilty collectively and accusing them of making excuses is not a great way to get them on board with your ideas.

However, (I could be wrong) I think I get the gist where you are coming from. So often people don't get behind a show until it's too late. The buzz starts happening after the show's already on the bubble or even stopped airing altogether. I think that fans of quality shows are starting to realise that fan hype and buzz are very important, even prior to a show premiering, and that with the internet as a ready resource it's important to not only keep informed but also to inform others of shows worthy of our attention and support.

There was no way I could have helped Firefly by watching it when it aired as I live in New Zealand and do not get Fox here, but as soon as it came out on DVD I ordered myself a copy.

You are talking about being more proactive rather than reactive I think.




thanks for getting what i am saying. it may have come across as too harsh, i didn't think so. there has been post after post on this issue and it seems that the focus gets lost in the fox bashing. it's easy to band together as a group and keep kicking fox. but it's not as easy to admit that the fans played a part.

i don't really want to be in the defending fox camp, but the fox bashing camp isn't really doing much for anyone.

it seems that a lot of people are taking personal offense at this. i should clarify that i am not talking about any individual fan or what you did or didn't do to help firefly. i am talking about all firefly fans, and what 'we' didn't do, myself included. all with the idea that next time 'we' get it right. whether that be for the relaunched firefly series, or for the next best thing.

but if you still don't get that, feel free to attack me. blame me for the failure of wonderfalls. post how you couldn't have done any more. toss in a shot at fox. whatever you need. at least people are discussing it now.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 5:01 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by bamadave:
to answer your original question as to why this show was cancelled, because nobody f'ing watched. all the other reasons are just excuses meant to obscure the fact that the fans of the show let it down.

aired out of order - so what. watch the episodes in their intended order and the story is still told out of order. they flash back or reveal details later in the series that you don't get in the pilot. also, each episode stands well enough on its own that it doesn't require seeing the previous one.

pre-empted for baseball - who cares? sci-fi fans can wait 16 years between star wars films and still manage to figure out when to go to the theater in record numbers, but can't seem to figure out that firefly will be on again in two weeks?

time slot of death - well either it is a great show or it isn't. if people can't be bothered to make time to watch it on a friday night, they must not really think it is a great show.

didn't know it was on - one of my favorites. is the network supposed to come to your house and change the channel for you? every newspaper and countless websites all have tv grids. people can't take one minute out of their day to see what is on?

fox just wants to make more reality crap - close, but missing the point. fox just wants to make money. they had to hire extra people to rake up all the cash that american idol show is bringing in. there is not an evil plot at the network to only make bad tv. they are there to make a profit, and you can bet that if firefly was getting top 20 numbers that they would be more than happy to keep flying.



Hey BamaDave. Welcome to the board. Not sure this is a great way to start things out, but.... (shrugs).

I can see your point that "fans" let the show down, but only to an extent. The fans are not alone in treatment of the show, and we definitely have no influence on how a network like Fox handles it once they have purchased the rights to it.

I don't think our points are "excuses" so much as they are facts:

fact: Fox execs made Joss set aside the pilot episode, "Serenity", stating it was too long and made him write the "Train Job" script over the course of a weekend to fit their 1 hour time slot.

result: Confusion. Sure it was a good episode, but it still left people scratching their heads. Who were these characters, and why were they on Serenity in the first place? What was their motivation? What were their connections to one another? Some people lost interest because there was no background on the characters. Kind of like jumping into a book halfway through & trying to appreciate it.

fact: Fox aired episodes out of order.

result: Airing episodes out of order caused the storyline to seem fractured and chaotic. Episodes referred back to what should have been previous episodes, but weren't due to being shown in something other than their intended order.

fact: Fox pre-empted the show twice for baseball.

result: People gave up trying to catch the show, or thought it was off the air. Hard to keep someone's interest if you pre-empt the show w/ all the other problems you have given the show through mishandling.

fact: Nielson families are the only ones who count toward ratings.

result: Ratings are based on some convoluted formula that most still feel does not accurately sample the number of viewers that tune into a show.

Now I can see where perhaps the show did not have the fanbase then that it does now, but the past is the past. Some fans can take some of the blame, but part of the blame lays w/ Fox in their mishandling of the show. Anyone who says Fox is not partly responsible is simply delusional.

Quote:

etc etc etc. this might seem harsh but i think it is worth pointing out. firefly was cancelled because the fans let it down. they didn't watch, and that is what you get. sadly, since people would rather say f fox and the people at fox are morons and any other thing besides 'it's our fault', it will happen again and again. rather than focus all of that energy tilting at the fox windmill, they should be trying to figure out why it is that sci-fi fans couldn't be bothered to tune in. until that is figured out, it will just keep happening. ask the fandoms at dark angel, odyssey5, the lone gunmen, millenium, harsh realm, space above and beyond, veritas the quest, american gothic, etc. etc. etc.


Blame is kind of pointless at this point, don't you think? You are obviously going to try to lay it all at the feet of the fans, which I am assuming you are one of that number. Others will blame it all on Fox. Truth is there are many reasons, on both sides of the fence it failed.

I think it better to focus on the positive. We have a movie on its way to us. The fanbase is larger now than ever. The DVD has sold over 200,000 in Region 1 & once it releases in Region 2 in the U.K. & Europe on April 19th, I think we will see that number reach over 350,000. The set is still selling strong and is still in the top 25 sellers on Amazon.com.

Universal had Joss write the script in such a way as to "springboard" Serenity back into a TV series. If that happens, it will be far more successful w/ the help of the fanbase and the proper handling of the show by the network that gets it.

Quote:

hey, look over there at that clever new wonderfalls show that nobody is watching. then again, people probably don't know when it is on. or they are too busy on friday. or it might have been advertised wrong. or fox might really want it to fail. or this. or that. or the other.


And who says sarcasm is a lost art?

Are you watching Wonderfalls BamaDave? I know I am, as are several here on this site.

I think the problem is that it may be a bit cerebral for most. The concept is odd, and the lines a bit quirky. Even Tim says it is not for everyone. I fully believe this show would do better on a network geared towards shows of this nature, Sci Fi Channel. Fox is just not a good fit for such shows. It may have been back in the days of X-Files, but those days are past.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:44 AM

SBWATCHER


Quote:

Hi SBWatcher, and Welcome!! I'm in Goshen, 30 miles east of you.


Pleasure to meet you DarkJester! Thanks for the welcome.

"What's sanguine mean again?"

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:28 PM

HAPLO721


Bamadave,

Just FYI, I told everyone I knew and thought might possibly be interested in FF to watch it while it was on, and I saw every single ep except for Objects In Space on TV (I dl'ed OIS later.)

Early: You ever been raped, Kaylee?
Kaylee: You know, it's funny you should mention that... ever heard of the Fox network?

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:52 PM

SAMURAIX47


Quote:

Originally posted by Cartagia:
I'm not certain but I think it was Robert Heinlein who first came to the conclusion that frontier civilization would resemble what we think of as 'western' civilization. When you are all alone out on the fringe, with your life and those of your family depending upon the equipment you have, you want to know that it will almost never break and that if you are unlucky enough for it to happen, then you or one of your neighbors can fix it themselves, not have to ship it back to some tech shop to get repaired in a month or so, if you are lucky.


Yes, for Heinlein's take on life on the frontier read Farmer in the Sky, Tunnel in the Sky and Time Enough For Love. And Tunnel actually has a scene of a wagon train of settlers about to travel thru a wormhole to a colony planet.

Jaymes

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 1:12 PM

RUTHIE


It's been interesting reading through this thread.

Why was the show cancelled?
My opinion is that it was due to wrong pre-suppositions from BOTH the part of the Fox executives and from the fans.

The TV executives took the line :-
"SF show? That will appeal to a demographic of 13-30 year old males who are interested in science and alien life-forms (Dare I say geeks/nerds/anoraks/boffs, whichever is most appropriate to your culture and age?) So let's show it at a time when all the people who are NOT in this demographic are doing other things - 8pm on a Friday, so all the lonely young men can watch it in peace."

The prospective fans, however, did NOT fall into this demographic. As can easily be seen from scanning this board, fans come from many backgrounds.
I see a few trends:-
a) Fans of other work from Joss W, especially BtVS and Angel (which themselves have a wide fan-base in demographic terms)
b) Fans of other SF shows/movies (ST, B5, Star Wars etc) who are interested in seeing other interpretations of the future.
c) Fans of any or all of the actors from other sources - they are an appealing bunch of characters who have gathered their own adherants.
d) Fans of classic written SF who see elements of old favorites re-interpteted in Firefly.
e) Fans who see their own particular political bias reflected in the show (and I always find it interesting that people from ALL political shades can see it as supporting their point of view!)
f) Fans who didn't expect to like the show because they don't fit into any of the other categories - they just LIKE it.

I'm sure there are more categories - but my point is that the fans can't be defined by a simple description of age, sex, educational level, income or anything else. They don't fit into any of the dempgraphics.

From the point of view of the fans, the false assumption was that because THEY saw the show and thought it was good, everyone else ought to do so too - including the decision makers at Fox.

However, those executives saw only that this show was not popular with the demographic they had aimed it at - and so assumed it was unpopular. (Who could imagine that a middle-aged mother could get her ration of escapism for the week from SF rather than Soap? Not Fox, evidently!! (That's me, btw!!))

And so it was cancelled. And THEN the protests started from all the people who loved the show, but at whom it was not aimed.

So - the half series was sold wherever it could bring in a bit more money.
I'm in the UK, so had the priveledge of watching the whole series in the right order (Serenity first), and including the episodes un-aired in the USA, on the UK SciFi channel. Each new episode was shown 3 or 4 times each week, no pre-emptions, plenty of advertising on that channel.

I watched or recorded the first showing each time, then often re-watched a later showing. The episodes have been repeated at least once (maybe twice) since their original showing.

In a few words, they treated the show right.

HOWEVER, and this is a big however (in capitals, even!) I realise that there is little chance that SciFi UK, or even the larger body that runs SciFi channels in different countries, would have had the funding to have produced the show in the first place. Even if they are the ones who understand how to make most money out of it.

So - we come down to a choice - expensive shows that will appeal to a large number of people who happen to fall into the expected demographic, or cheaper shows that will appeal to less people, who may not fit into the simple demographic descriptions.

All this ramble is in answer to Bamadave's question about how we can stop the same thing happening to other shows.

My answer would be
a) To try to make decision-makers shake off outdated pre-suppositions about who enjoys what.
b) Decide what WE really want. Early Star Trek (OS) shows were cheap to make - polystyrene block scenery, limited cast and sets - and yet told stories that are still enjoyable.
If we are a minority, and can't provide between ourselves the resources to allow expensive shows to be made - would we prefer NO shows or CHEAP shows?
Would be still have enjoyed Firefly with no CGI, fewer extras and intricate sets, more episodes where just the ship's interior and the main characters are seen?
For my own part, the answer is a decided YES - it's lovely to see outside shots of the ships, but the STORIES would be the same without them.
Just because it is possible to create convincing other worlds with CGI, it doesn't mean that it HAS to be done.

So - to TV executives I say - don't assume that only one type of person will enjoy a show just because it carries an SF label.

And to fans - continue to use your imagination. Don't demand all the most expensive effects. If a story is good, enjoy it for what it is.

Perhaps this attitude would encourage channels like SciFi to sponsor their own shows, and know that they would be watched, and the fans would know they would be well-treated.

*******************
Ruthie
*******************
By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man - man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him. (R.A.Heinlein)

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