Am I the only one to hate Serenity the movie. by Apollo

It would probably help if you understood that there were reasons why Joss did what he did. First, Ron Glass and Alan Tudyk could not have committed to anything further than the movie, so that's why he had to kill them off.
Some people here still pine for Wash, but Shepard Book was the one that killed me as he had so much as a character to give and to tell. But
I understand, compromises have to be made in Hollyweird sometimes.

Two, I think that the series had the larger end goal of saying just how far a gov't would go in it's own interests and NOT of the people's interests, and he got the chance to do that in the movie and ran with it. I've always suspected that that larger goal was what got the series canned to begin with. He has my respect for that, because even though this is America, that theme is not really an allowed subject for the mainstream- they usually relegate it to fringe "weirdos" like X-files type conspiracy nuts.

Three, the movie was filmed from the perspective that many people still had not even HEARD of the series and he wrote it from an "re-introductory" position, as for the people who were meeting the characters for the first time (I was one who saw the movie first as well). It's choppy in parts, but the main goals were accomplished and with what he had to work with, both in back story and in budgeting- it's amazing he accomplished what he did....

Might wanna cut it some slack there...

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Thursday, November 19, 2015 7:22 PM

APOLLO_MASTER

Well thank you very much, I understand better now. what you said about the gvt plot, and this is what expected, to understand why the Alliance is so bad, and when "the operator" says "we are not just the evil empire" ... Well tell us why ! I have more question question now than before seeing the movie. I understand, and i respect the work of Whedon, but I think we can agree that the movie was just for Hollywood, even though it gave us some key to understand the Allinance, the story of River and Simon .. but not enough. Thank you, you really helped me :)

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Thursday, November 19, 2015 7:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Apollo_Master:
"we are not just the evil empire" ...

The Operative believed that unification and having central rule was for the greater good and that is what allowed him to do the horrible things he did and to justify it. By the end of the movie I think even he could see that central rule was more about ego and subjugation and less about any sense of freedom, as it always becomes when one is ruled by others.

By the way, this is the moment I spent a horrible semester with Mrs. Ozete in French class for.... It is ALL that I remember from 15 years ago...

Où est la salle de bains? and...

Est-ce je peux avoir la carte s'il vous plait?

So I have to say your English is much much better than my French!

"It is NOT our mission to impose Federation or Earth values on any others in the Galaxy" -Captain Jean-Luc Picard

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Thursday, November 19, 2015 7:46 PM

THGRRI

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Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:18 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Here's the review I wrote ten years ago: http://templetongate.net/serenity-fullreview.htm

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, November 20, 2015 1:34 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by Apollo_Master:

I love firefly because it's cheap, sfx are not the greatest and it's more focus on the plot. In Serenity, we have a lot of PEW PEW and cliché scenes.

I hate the scene in Serenity where Mal shoots at the Operative and misses. What is wrong with you, Mal? But in the 190 pages long version of the Serenity script, that scene played out differently and it made perfect sense that Mal would miss.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Also, Jayne being harpooned in the leg by Reavers, but still walking on the leg for the rest of the movie? That is not possible. Jayne does not even limp!

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Friday, November 20, 2015 9:06 AM

GWEK

Personally, I love the series, but only like the movie. I certainly don't hate it, but I'll freely admit that it's an inferior product. In a way, SERENITY, to me, is almost like INDIANA JONES & THE TEMPLE OF DOOM. DOOM is a solid enough action movie on its own, but it largely lacks the unique charm of the first and third movies.

So... WHY is the movie inferior to the TV show?

Well, first off, it's a movie rather than a TV show. Joss freely admits that he was telling a story that might have taken 22 episodes, ideally, in 2 hours or so. A lot of detail is lost. And detail is where Joss and Co. excel.

This is a "condensed" version of FIREFLY, so it's a blunt hammer version. Because it's a movie, everything is bigger and more over the top. This is an unfortunate effect of translation of media type.

Additionally, there's a shift from character to plot, and that's the biggest killer here. FIREFLY is about nine people. Sure, Mal and a few others get the focus, but all nine get a lot of attention. In the movie, it's limited to Mal and RIver, with the others reduced to background characters, and, again, forced to be simplified. In a 22-episode season, there's room to play out the fact that, say, Jayne both respects and resents Mal, that he is completely mercenary, but also finds value in the "found family" of the crew. In the movie, he's largely reduced to the archetype of "skeptic." Similarly, most of the other crew members lose their identities in favor of becoming "supporters."

This is further accentuated by the fact that the movie has to serve multiple masters. The series is for fans of the series. The movie is for fans of the series, and for folks who've never heard of it. And for general sci fi fans. To me, most times, when you try to make something serve two contradictory purposes, it won't be excellent in both. The series was an "A+" for a single audience. The best the movie can hope for is a "B+" in both categories.

One area where the movie DOES fail is the nature of the Alliance. The series is careful to depict the Alliance itself as something other than evil, although some of the representatives are certainly questionable, often in their rigidity of thinking. The movie, unfortunately, because it's something of a simplification, TELLS us that the Alliance isn't evil, but shows us something completely different.
Important distinction: In the series, the "alpha villain" (Hands of Blue) ultimately appear to be contractors working for the Blue Sun Corporation, whereas in the movie, the alpha villain is a direct representative of the government of the Alliance. Joss has stated that the ultimate villain in the series is Blue Sun (or is it the Rossum Corporation? Or Wolfram & Hart? Sometimes, even Joss repeats himself), and not the Alliance.

Interestingly, if we consider the comic LEAVES ON THE WIND to me canon, the net result of the Miranda Broadwave is pretty small. It stirs up folks who were paranoid anyway... and ultimately, far from being undercut by it, the Alliance is able to use the situation to their advantage. This is a neat bit of sleight of hand on Whedon's part: if the movie stands on it's own, we're left with the impression that Mal's actions are comparable to Luke taking down the Death Star, but in the larger tapestry of Firefly, we continue the theme of folk crushed under the heel of history rather than folk who make history.

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Friday, November 20, 2015 10:16 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

One area where the movie DOES fail is the nature of the Alliance. The series is careful to depict the Alliance itself as something other than evil, although some of the representatives are certainly questionable, often in their rigidity of thinking. The movie, unfortunately, because it's something of a simplification, TELLS us that the Alliance isn't evil, but shows us something completely different.

The story-telling machinery was embarrassingly exposed in the movie, but never in the TV show. The Operative, a professional killer who ought to know better, tells Mr Universe about his evil plan to ambush Mal and then kills Mr Universe, who is allowed privacy before death to pass the plan to Mal by way of the sex-robot, a robot which was only in the movie to pass the plan along. The story-telling really wasn't as simplified as I'm pretending, but it was clunky and mechanical compared to the smooth and organic stories on the TV show.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 20, 2015 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:

Also, Jayne being harpooned in the leg by Reavers, but still walking on the leg for the rest of the movie? That is not possible. Jayne does not even limp!

My spouse, until recently...was a coal miner (FUCK YOU OBAMA). You should see some of the injuries these guys get and are still walking around with, and THEY don't have a personal doctor with future meds at their disposal...

I always assumed that Mal's bullet hit body armor and that he knew it and was just looking for a distraction for a second to throw him off...

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Friday, November 20, 2015 1:05 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

My spouse, until recently...was a coal miner (FUCK YOU OBAMA). You should see some of the injuries these guys get and are still walking around with, and THEY don't have a personal doctor with future meds at their disposal...

I don't wanna be too grumpy about this, but Jayne pours whiskey from his personal flask on the hole through his leg and wraps it in a dirty rag. Dr Tam doesn't look at the wound. (This is one-upsmanship: the last time I saw hole through a leg, the leg had a tourniquet. There was no possibility of jumping immediately back into a fight with Reavers. Maybe TV writers should visit a trauma center before writing about bullet wounds. Try Houston's Ben Taub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_center#Level_I )

Jayne's dirty rag bandage isn't slowing him down.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

I always assumed that Mal's bullet hit body armor and that he knew it and was just looking for a distraction for a second to throw him off...

What peeved me about Mal's tactics is that he let the Operative hide behind that equipment that is just to the right of the Operative in the picture. Mal has bruises to prove what happens when he turns his back to the Operative and yet Mal does that again, same as that time with Inara watching. In the longer version of the script, Mal missed the Operative while shooting from 50 feet away, after Mal has crossed halfway over all that rotating machinery of death.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 20, 2015 10:26 PM

I think you are missing the point, the leg thing is just supposed to look BADASS.

And I could give you a personal tale about hubby when he was injured, and he walked himself to the rideout, but it's not something I wanna broadcast in the internets...

As for the other thing

Dude, ten years ago....

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Friday, November 20, 2015 11:07 PM

THGRRI

I liked Book's character in the show as much as washes, yet when wash died it hit harder. I think because at that very moment I new it was over. You see I saw the show for the first time when the movie was already out. I saw the show and movie pretty much at the same time.

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Friday, November 20, 2015 11:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

No hate, though I'd have gone a different way w/ the story in a couple of areas.

The way River was sprung from the academy didn't work for me. There was a great disconnect, imo, from how they escaped to how she ended up in the box, and on board Serenity. I heard it explained, but I've just never bought it.

Minor stuff, like how do Reavers control ships and set up coordinated attacks on settlements and such. Again, I suppose there's some plausible explanation that's not been shown on screen, like " reasoning " Reavers, who may act as commanders, but it doesn't seem to follow.

Hated to death scenes, of course.

And Mal 'shaking off " being skewered , like shish kabob, and then winning the fight...Joss wanted that " moment " , but sorry, the follow up was a bit much to take as well.

All in all, I still gave it a solid B. It is, after all, our BDHs.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 21, 2015 1:27 AM

I watched it again tonight, because I haven't in probably five years...It DOES still hurt.

The thing that attracted me to Firefly and to Serenity is STILL as strong as ever...

Every thing Joss does, from the lighting to the music to the little details...It all MEANS something, dammit. I've not seen that before or since. Some shows had it to some degree, but Joss really was a master of it in Firefly.

It's almost enough to make me think something matters again.

And then I wake up.

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Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:02 AM

VERASAMUELS

I love the movie. Not one wasted word of dialogue.

I was voted Film of the year, UK, 2006.

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:59 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by VeraSamuels:
I love the movie. Not one wasted word of dialogue.

It was voted Film of the year, UK, 2006.

The quote is:

1. Perched on top of the heap we call 2005, Serenity.
It was far from the biggest hit of the year but the rabid fanbase which helped get Joss Whedon's cancelled sci-fi series onto the big screen has now handed it the biggest accolade in modern cinema: the title of Film 2005 Film of the Year. Rachel Formby calls it, 'A labour of love filled with strong, superbly written characters, humour, emotion and cool effects'. Juliet Richards in Stanstead claims it 'brilliantly blended comedy, action, drama, horror and romance', adding that 'the only negative point I can think of is that it wasn't out for long enough so I only got to see it five times on the big screen'. That's the sort of passion we like to see.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060709160630/http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/f
ilm2005/filmofyear_2005.shtml

Awards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_%28film%29#Awards

Serenity won the Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation - Long Form,
the Nebula Award for Best Script,
and the Prometheus Special Award.

The film was also named film of the year by Film 2005 and FilmFocus,
and it was determined by SFX magazine to be the best science fiction movie of all time in 2007.

IGN Film awarded Serenity Best Sci-Fi, Best Story, and Best Trailer for the year,
and it won second for Overall Best Movie after Batman Begins.

The SyFy Genre Awards awarded it runner-up in the categories for Best Movie, Best Actor in a film (Nathan Fillion), and Best Actress in a film (Summer Glau), losing in all categories to Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

Serenity later ranked 383 on Empire magazine's 500 Greatest Films of All Time and 90 of the 301 Greatest Movies of All Time as voted by the magazine's readers.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, November 22, 2015 12:07 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

This Video Shows Why Joss Whedon's Serenity Was A Unique, Genre-Bending Film

It examines how Serenity uses many genres to succeed as a film. The video looks at the history of westerns and science fiction thrillers to help support thoughts about Serenity.
http://io9.com/this-video-shows-why-joss-whedons-serenity-was-a-unique
-1743966629

Perhaps the movie was more successful than the TV show (as stated in the video) because people always knew when the movie would be showing, they never missed the first half because of a ball game, and everything happened in the order intended by it’s creator.

There, I said it for you.
http://ladylionink.deviantart.com/art/Firefly-christmas-card-572299383

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, November 22, 2015 9:59 AM

THGRRI

Love the post TWO. I never saw that, it was great

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Sunday, November 22, 2015 12:34 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

most people didn't enjoy it at the theatres

I will try dig up the old thread, the feel was a little like this
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=31560

Quote:
Originally posted by Apollo_Master:

ARAB writings on their computers ?

maybe Qatar, UAE, Iran, Morocco, Saudi, Pakistan. Algeria started giving those Hollyweird props people some Dollars to keep the kamikaze jihadi islamo culture in space

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Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:27 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
most people didn't enjoy it at the theatres.

Really? Where do you get that? I think the majority that saw it liked it, there just weren't enough of them to make it a hit. It is certain that its reputation has grown since then.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:40 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
most people didn't enjoy it at the theaters

I will try dig up the old thread, the feel was a little like this
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=31560

That was mainly a thread complaining that the title Serenity doesn't say ACTION like Furious 7 or Avengers. But, on the other hand, neither does Ant-Man say ACTION, and it made $518,178,306 which is a dozen times more than Serenity. www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=antman.htm

Maybe that $518,178,306 is why there will be a sequel called, oddly enough, Ant-Man and The Wasp in theaters on July 6, 2018. Still no sequel for Serenity despite $38,869,464 in ticket sales.
www.cinemablend.com/new/Ant-Man-2-Happening-Get-Details-87047.html

Are you worried by the constant battle in Hollywood between economics and artistic integrity? Please don't be when it's a battle between pop culture products like Serenity versus Ant-Man. Popularity is the measure of artistic integrity in pop culture. We ain't talkin' high-culture products like Much Ado About Nothing (2012). Those products are measured by a standard completely different from tickets sales in dollars.

As a reminder that the future is the past, at least in Hollywood, there are these headlines:

157 movie sequels currently in the works

98 movie remakes and reboots currently in the works

63 upcoming comic book movies, and when to expect them

www.denofgeek.com/movies/movie-sequels/35837/157-movie-sequels-current
ly-in-the-works
www.denofgeek.com/movies/remakes/36637/98-movie-remakes-and-reboots-cu
rrently-in-the-works
www.denofgeek.com/movies/comic-book-adaptations/32829/63-upcoming-comi
c-book-movies-and-when-to-expect-them

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Wednesday, September 10, 2025 7:12 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

It has been almost a decade since anyone posted in this thread. Time to resurrect it!

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Wednesday, September 10, 2025 8:50 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

'Serenity' while an ok movie it was very good career stepping stone, good for Joss because I think without 'Serenity' they would not have trusted him with Marvel's Avengers 2012
Serenity = Avengers job ...I dont think it was Cabin in the Woods an Off the Grid Horror from Lionsgate that made them think Joss = Avengers, it wasnt what impressed Disney, but they got Chris Hemsworth as 'Thor' from that movie...I think at Marvel they seen money potential in Serenity and his humor in his tv shows and comicbooks working at Marvel for the big screen
Alien Resurrection was a total disaster, although it has some ok moments

Tv and movies were more independent in th 90s and early 2000s, Universal Pictures and Fox were still a thing...although its not as bad as today where Disney or WB/DC own almost everything and push the message they want forced

8.9 out of 10
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303461/

7.8 out of 10
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/

63 and 8.8 critic dislike but fans like
https://www.metacritic.com/tv/firefly/

74 and 8.0 ...critics like it but net users reviewing and fans dont like it as much as the show
https://www.metacritic.com/movie/serenity/

Continuity issues?

River over powers everyone, physically over powers Jayne, beats up all big dudes in a bar, Mal and River draw guns on each other...sexbot guy 'Cant Stop the Signal' says give up Doctor and Crazy-Girl
Book is not on the crew, Miranda is not a person but a planet
Inara is not crew...but maybe soon
Mal shoots Operative first while Inara prays to Buddha...Mal is getting his ass kicked...bullet proof body armor, but the incense sticks are flash bombs
Book is dead
Wash flies for a while...dies
River wins beats everyone Buffy martial arts style

'Why did the details of River's rescue change for the movie Serenity?'
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/180894/why-did-the-details-o
f-rivers-rescue-change-for-the-movie-serenity

the Universe is still an unknown and unexplored in Firefly....in Serenity they seem to have mapped out the Universe and confirmed that everything is happening in the one giant solar system

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/9564/are-the-planets-in-fire
fly-in-just-one-star-system-or-spread-across-the-galaxy

Serenity vs Firefly

Serenity is a different story a different mood.
they are two different creatures for sure, the movie Serenity is different Firefly is more like The Revisionist Westerns, it hints at bio experiments and it covers the frontier and world building like telling the first stories of Starship Troopers, Paul Verhoeven Arnie 'Total recall' or The Expanse tv series or Dune, it is funny like Back to the Future Part III, it is unique like Steam Man of the Prairies, or Japanese Manga and Anime or Farscape or Outland 1981...there is a lot in the show and it was during the time people debated if Tv or Movie was the superior medium for story telling. You still had a lot of that pre-911 optimism and brightness to it Firefly was filmed in Alabama Hills, Fox Searchlight Pictures, Mojave Desert, Paramount Ranch and at the time of writing reading The Killer Angels by Michael Shaara chronicling the Battle of Gettysburg during the American Civil War, Fox didnt like it and executives rejected the pilot, who felt that it lacked action and that the captain was too "dour" Mutant Enemy were already working on fanatsy and drama and humor with Buffy the Vampire Slayer Television series and Angel, Time Minear had done X-Files, Zorro, and Lois and Clark, trange World TV series but he had not gone full dark American horror...it had bright 90s optimism but has so many more layers to it...sometimes it is unintentionally funny, behind the scenes commentary on DVD admitting they used the same Starship Troppers props and costume.

Wash was alive Shepard Derrial Book was alive, River didnt randomly kick friends in the throat or beat Galactic Armies in hand to hand using kick boxing dancing kungfu ninja Buffy super powers
by the DVD commetary alone, Tv won

Firefly is still classic

Each Firefly episode was very different, ep-1 also called "Serenity"...world building...Trainjob..also world building, sometimes compared to Cowboy Bebop and Train Heist films
"Bushwhacked" horrors of the 'savages' hints into a bio experiment ...arrests and questions, Dark Knight, Blade Runner, Usual Suspects etc does he go to jail or pass the test?
"Shindig" fun and a period piece duel
Safe...with Cows, backwater planet, Book is shot, ...ER themes and 'Salem' Kidnapping and River is a witch and attempt to burn her at the stake...Book might be alliance, with the 'bad guys'
Our Mrs. Reynolds ...the ship is about to be caught in a net but Jayne shoots out the guys with the big sopace net, its another stowaway in the cargo bay..Catfight Inara Serra vs. Saffron
"Jaynestown" maybe one of my favorite tv episodes
so many ways to tell a story from "War Stories" to Trash, Out of Gas, The Message, Heart of Gold, the planet of "Ariel" or Objects in Space

Serenity is tonally different.
while Serenity is another beast, when the movie comes it is another creature, sometimes products change the original tv Battlestar was 'Western' but the remake of the tv was not Western a lot of it was post 911, when the music comes out in Serenity its not the same as Firefly, its a very de-countrified version. Tv post 911 got dark, the colors fade with blues and gray or greyish filter, with Catastrophe. I think its an evolution in the wrong direction, it de-evolves.

River turns into Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman and defeats the Savages or defeats the elite Confederate scifi galactic States all by herself or by using a sword, a spear the Battle axe ...she is a Conan, Shogun, House of Flying Daggers, Enter the Dragon, Game of Thrones fighting expert

Serenity is River the Monster Slayer
in the new 28 days Serenity style world ...the space zombies and savages shoot guns or do they...doc Brother is shot... or was it the elite that shot them? and suddenly River becomes a Samurai Ninja one of King Arthur's Knights
wounded Mal stumbles into the camera asks for a Report, they are all ready to cry that River is dead, she killed all the space zombies just as the guys won swinging cricket bats in Shaun of the Dead. River can magically win any fight Buffy style just as James Cameron's Na'vi alien in Avatar, and can live comfortably on Pandora, being surrounded by lots of attacking monsters is a very habitable situation for River ...a space army arrives and blows a whole in the wall and it looks like River ready to fight Avatar style is going to beat the entire space army Space Force galaxy spanning Empire by herself using the whole Knife vs Gun Fight philosophy

River: Mary sue, or not so much?
https://forum.rpg.net/threads/river-mary-sue-or-not-so-much.336883/

When Serenity comes the world building is gone, Joss he might claim its his own and true but its still an attempt at box office
the humor is gone or very different, its all about River, the River character becomes super like Buffy
Serenity the movie, it is a tonal shift to shocking character endings 'Deaths' or more like Buffy or Weird Japan sexdoll West or its more like Ultra Violet, The Bourne Series, Æon Flux, The Long Kiss Goodnight, Pandorum, Fight Club, The Shining, Primal Fear 1996, 'Solo' or 28 Days Later, Fifth Element

people still talk about Firefly but Serenity is only seen as somewhat better than a generic StarTrek movie

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Wednesday, September 10, 2025 10:07 AM

Thursday, September 28, 2017 5:39 PM _ I posted, "I am an independent."

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Wednesday, September 10, 2025 10:07 AM

Thursday, September 28, 2017 5:39 PM _ I posted, "I am an independent."

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

Here's the review I wrote ten years ago: http://templetongate.net/serenity-fullreview.htm

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

Miss ya buddy

T

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Wednesday, September 10, 2025 10:09 AM

Thursday, September 28, 2017 5:39 PM _ I posted, "I am an independent."

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Wednesday, September 10, 2025 10:09 AM