GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Common ground with Farscape fans.

POSTED BY: DESANGRO
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:46
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8251
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Thursday, July 8, 2004 3:41 PM

DESANGRO


I just found this quote on the SaveFarscape website, and I couldn't resist the thought of sharing it with you all:

Quote:

Them and Us



They said no one watched it.
We were there.


They said it took too much work.
We saw intelligent writing.


They said it was too expensive.
We know the value of quality.


They said it couldn't grow beyond its core fanbase.
Yet we've grown


They said it wouldn't return.
We won.

We spent over a year saving it. During that year, we laughed, cried, cheered, and ranted, but we did it together. We remained a community as the crew told us to do. Network suits, media skeptics and viewers of other fandoms said we couldn't do it. They said it was a lost cause, that it couldn't be saved. They told us repeatedly that we were wasting our time.


However, we endured; we never gave up. Giving unthinkable amounts time, money, sweat, tears, and what felt like blood to some of us, we fought the good fight. No doubt, we appeared foolish on the outside -- Don Quixote tilting windmills. Yet within, we knew the truth of our struggle -- John Quixote braving the perils of an irrational world to save a princess. And at the end of the day, we won. Our prize: four more precious hours and the gratification of knowing we earned it. To some, it may appear that our fight is over. We won, and don't battles end when you win? Why continue toiling after the victory?



Whether you love Farscape, hate Farscape, or simply enjoy it in a casual way, I think that you have to respect the fans for what they've done on behalf of the show. After all, haven't we Browncoats gone through a similar experience with Firefly?

Fans came through for The X-Files when it faced cancellation in its first season, and fans got Star Trek: The Original Series a slightly longer life. Fans built Star Trek and Star Wars into the phenomenons they are today.

Sci-Fi fans sure do have a lot of guts and gumption, considering that the media has stereotyped us as "nerds" and "geeks".

Hail to the fans, baby.




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Thursday, July 8, 2004 3:59 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


Before Firefly came along, Farscape was my favorite show.

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Thursday, July 8, 2004 4:11 PM

APEX


Quote:

Originally posted by Haken:
Before Firefly came along, Farscape was my favorite show.



Same here. Cancelllation seems to follow shows i get in to. :/

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Thursday, July 8, 2004 4:30 PM

DECIDENDI


Yep me too!

I saw it first in its second season on BBC2 in the UK and I thought it was really weird so I immediately went out and brought the first season on DVD and I loved it and have ever since. Then Firefly came along and while I still love Farscape, Firefly is my real love!

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Thursday, July 8, 2004 4:53 PM

NDREAMS


Those are my two favorite shows. Intelligent writing mixed with creativity and humor and some action thrown in to keep you on your toes. I guess only those of us "geeks" and "nerds" are smart enough to get it. The rest watch reality shows.

HA!

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Thursday, July 8, 2004 7:05 PM

JIMGOINGS


I am halfway through season 2 of Farscape. It's a fun show, but it just doesn't compare to FireFly. My wife and I find ourselves laughing at the crazy events that occur.

The comment about "intelligent writing" strikes me as odd. I would not consider that a trait of Farscape. It's a good show and is fun to watch, but intelligent writing? Seriously people, some of the cheesiest science fiction moments have appeared in this show.

- Dargo hanging out in space for over half an hour? What about heat from the sun? What about the extreme cold? What about the vacuum of space? (this happened more than once which blows my mind)

- The characters seem bi-polar at times. At one point in season 1, the characters were so desperate to get home, they were willing to cut of the arm of pilot to give it the mad scientist alien dude (intelligent plot, huh?). Then, later on in the season, the characters profess much care and peace towards each other and other races. They also switch between hating each other and loving each other quite often. They will argue of stupid stuff and threated each other, and then spend months searching for and rescuing each other. Just doesn't seem like consistent characters overall.

- How about that Freaky Friday body-switching episode. Intelligent writing my butt.

I could go on and on. Despite the horrible plots and cheesy setups, the show has a lot of merits and I look forward to watching the rest of it. I merely suggest that Firefly and Farscape should never be compared to each other. One focuses on fun and adventure, setting realism and science aside, while the other embraces grit and reality, folding it into a fun and adventurous show.

Jim
Web: http://www.3rdedition.org
Blog: http://www.goingsfamily.com/jim

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Friday, July 9, 2004 1:20 AM

RELFEXIVE


Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
- Dargo hanging out in space for over half an hour? What about heat from the sun? What about the extreme cold? What about the vacuum of space? (this happened more than once which blows my mind)



Luxans can survive in space for about a quarter arn. How? Does it matter?

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
- The characters seem bi-polar at times. At one point in season 1, the characters were so desperate to get home, they were willing to cut of the arm of pilot to give it the mad scientist alien dude (intelligent plot, huh?). Then, later on in the season, the characters profess much care and peace towards each other and other races. They also switch between hating each other and loving each other quite often. They will argue of stupid stuff and threated each other, and then spend months searching for and rescuing each other. Just doesn't seem like consistent characters overall.



People can be inconsistent too.

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
- How about that Freaky Friday body-switching episode. Intelligent writing my butt.



Mind you, I can't think of many other series' that have body swaps and have to deal with teaching an alien how to pee using your own body when you're in someone elses'. Neither can I see any male in Trek checking out the rack on the female body he's been swapped into either.

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
I could go on and on. Despite the horrible plots and cheesy setups, the show has a lot of merits and I look forward to watching the rest of it. I merely suggest that Firefly and Farscape should never be compared to each other. One focuses on fun and adventure, setting realism and science aside, while the other embraces grit and reality, folding it into a fun and adventurous show.



It's not all bad... but yes, Farscape leans more towards the space opera genre while Firefly leans more towards the true science fiction genre. Both very good in their area, sharing some aspects but differing in others, and quite fundemental ones at that.

Keep them separate. Love them both. Await their return, and rejoice.

Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Friday, July 9, 2004 2:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I like Farscape. I don't even try to compare it to Firefly, but it sure was entertaining. I was unaware of the 4 more precious hours they got,what's that about? I'm so not up to speed w/ the Sci Fi news beyond Firefly. Heck, I'm behind on my Firefly info as well.....Ok, back to work.... I do the job, I get paid, yadda yadda.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, July 9, 2004 3:01 AM

RELFEXIVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I like Farscape. I don't even try to compare it to Firefly, but it sure was entertaining. I was unaware of the 4 more precious hours they got,what's that about?




In short: fans campaigned; the people behind the show campaigned, too; momentum was built up; money and the will to produce it was found; it went through pre, actual and post production; and finally, the Sci-Fi Channel decided to show it and to try and tell everyone it was their idea to bring it back in the first place.

Oh, and it starts in the US on 17th October 2004. When will it be in the UK? Frell knows.

Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Friday, July 9, 2004 5:10 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by DeSangro:
Sci-Fi fans sure do have a lot of guts and gumption, considering that the media has stereotyped us as "nerds" and "geeks".

Hail to the fans, baby.

Hell yeah.

We have done the impossible --all of us-- and that makes us mighty.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, July 9, 2004 5:33 AM

TRIP327


I'm a fan of both Farscape and Firefly, and the two shows have a few things in common:

- both start with an 'F'

- both were cancelled before their time

- both were brought back (in some form) due to the fans

- both are intelligent, well-written shows that put a new spin on sci-fi television

- both of the lead characters have brown hair

- both have cast and crews that are really passionate about and dedicated to their respective show


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Friday, July 9, 2004 5:47 AM

CAPNRAHN


I think FireFly and FarScape have much in common - Less one thing - The oddity of science, real or imagined. FarScape has more of that and FireFly much less.

Both had the guts to take the genre in to places no other show would dare to tread.

Cheese?! I'm I hearing that 'you' (the universal, not a specific 'you') do not see any cheeeese in Firefly?

WoW! elements of "JaynesTown" comes to mind. "The Train Job" is a perfect example of old cheese redressed and presented beautifully. "Heart of Gold", "Objects in Space" ... the list goes on. Cheese is everywhere. Whether one decides to aknowledge it is an entirely another matter and thread.

BTW - FarScape had 4 full seasons to "Go Boldly Where No Writer Wishes to Tread" - FireFly only had one half of a season. So ostensibly FarScape would have more cheese!

But hey! I LOVE cheese, if it tastes excellent and is not bland and crumbly.

What does make 'cheese' good -
1) Writers that insure that there are interesting twists to the old hackneyed plots.

2) Actors that CARE about their characters.

3) Directors that UNDERSTAND the materiel they are working with.

4) Fans that are WILLING to let a series find its balance.

Both shows are about PEOPLE. Maybe those who dislike FS prefer a more 'normal' setting in their SciFi.

All I can say to that is this -- "Opinions and Perspectives vary."

If we all agreed on what was good -- diversity would suffer greatly.

Myself - I watched 70+ episodes of "Babylon 5" - could NOT get into it and I am still trying to understand the draw. But that is my point -- these shows touch different things in different people. Just because I do not understand does not mean the show has NO merit. It just has not touched on any thing that I feel is required for my enjoyment of a story.

Perspectives vary ... or to quote Trek: "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations".

Enjoy what we can and try to get the smegheads who run the studios to rid the world of the plague know as "Reality TV" - Jerry Springer-isms have gone TOO far when they replace shows like FireFly and FarScape!

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

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Friday, July 9, 2004 7:52 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Whoa... good quote.
Quote:

Originally posted by CapnRahn
Myself - I watched 70+ episodes of "Babylon 5" - could NOT get into it and I am still trying to understand the draw. But that is my point -- these shows touch different things in different people. Just because I do not understand does not mean the show has NO merit. It just has not touched on any thing that I feel is required for my enjoyment of a story.

Of all the things I enjoyed about Babylon 5, I enjoyed these three the most:

Space station life, made to look casual. Pardon me while I go off on a selfish little tangent for a minute. They made it what I would like it to be. I've dreamed of living on a space station, where I could look out my window and DOWN on a planet? I'm not even talking about the alien encounters, but normal, everyday stuff that just happens to go on in space! To go from your apartment to your work just by going from one end of a station to the other the same way a lot of us go from one side of the city to the other, then eating lunch in a public pavilion where your window looks out on a starfield. Whether I saw a Vorlon or not (okay, yes, it would be cool) I wouldn't care because I would be living in space. Sci-fi that bases its storylines on space battles and gun fights every week hold no interest for me. There has to be character interaction, development, and intriguing backstories otherwise, I might just as well be watching a war movie. End of tangent.

Interesting and engaging characters. Pick one, whether you liked them or not. SOMETHING happened to each and every one of them, whether you liked it or not. Biggest mistake was what happened to Marcus at the end of fourth season. Huge.

No sudden shock of cancellation.JMS said he was only doing 5 seasons, and that's what he did. It took some finageling, a deluge of letter-writing and a SOS or two, but when it came down to it, we knew when it was going to end. We never once had the rug pulled out from under us, we just had to change to a different channel. There was comfort in that.

That, by the way, only applies to Babylon 5, not Crusade.

Quote:

Originally posted by JimGoings
I am halfway through season 2 of Farscape. It's a fun show, but it just doesn't compare to FireFly. My wife and I find ourselves laughing at the crazy events that occur.

And if all sci-fi was the same, what fun would that be, really? I laughed at the crazy events too - that was part of the charm of FarScape. Even if the episode was a groaner, they had no fear. They raised the bar for me, and missing it so terribly is why I gave Firefly not one, not two, but three chances. I never do that for anything, I don't care what genre it's in. If any TV show doesn't impress me by the second impression (thank you, Jayne), I don't go back. Firefly was the sole exception.

And now, every time I see the premise for a new sci-fi show, I find myself thinking "How long will it take for that to be submarined by the Powers That Be?" That seem right to you?

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Friday, July 9, 2004 9:57 AM

CAPNRAHN



Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
And now, every time I see the premise for a new sci-fi show, I find myself thinking "How long will it take for that to be submarined by the Powers That Be?" That seem right to you?

Heh, I'll leave my observations about Bab 5 for a thread dedicated to that subject as debate will be SURE to follow. I know you and I can do it in a civil manner. But I don't want to hijack this thread.

Now to the line I quoted above - from your post. I agree, the folks at the networks, be it cable or otherwise, have no clue as to what the audience wants. They run in fear of a show creating a loyal fanbase. Which leads to the "Save Our Show" syndrome when the series is canceled out-of-hand. We, the audience have to realize that "Save Our Show" has become almost a daily threat to them. Boycotts, flooding the mailrooms with Tabasco, crackers et al. is now a nuisance instead of a show of support. It does not have the desired impact anymore.

We need a new way of showing our passion for GOOD series. Hummm ... hit 'em in the marketing - go after the Advertisers - therein lies the power.

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

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Friday, July 9, 2004 10:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


RelFexive wrote:
Friday, July 09, 2004 03:01
Quote:

In short: fans campaigned; the people behind the show campaigned, too; momentum was built up; money and the will to produce it was found; it went through pre, actual and post production; and finally, the Sci-Fi Channel decided to show it and to try and tell everyone it was their idea to bring it back in the first place.


All well and good. But can you elaborate...what it are you referring ? I didn't catch the last season of Farscape, so I'm a bit in the dark as to where it left off. Will the 4 hours be in the form of final episodes...like what Joss was allowed to do w/ Angel ?


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, July 9, 2004 12:28 PM

RELFEXIVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
All well and good. But can you elaborate...what it are you referring ? I didn't catch the last season of Farscape, so I'm a bit in the dark as to where it left off. Will the 4 hours be in the form of final episodes...like what Joss was allowed to do w/ Angel ?




The fourth series ended on a humdinger of a cliffhanger, made all the worse by the fact that at that point it was The End. There was No More.

Now we have the Mini-Series.... Farscape: Peacekeeper War. Four hours (probably three and a quarter less all the frelling adverts) to tell a story that is sort-of season five, only cut down to the arc and leaving out all the extraneous stuff that would have been in the other episodes had they been made.

Does that answer the question?

Head over to www.watchfarscape.com or www.farscapeworld.com for more info.

Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Friday, July 9, 2004 1:20 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


'Serenity' might start a trend when it makes a ton of money at the box office. We'll start seeing Farscape: The Movie, B5: The Movie, Stargate SG1: The Movie, etc..

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Friday, July 9, 2004 2:27 PM

JIMGOINGS


Quote:

Originally posted by CapnRahn:
Cheese?! I'm I hearing that 'you' (the universal, not a specific 'you') do not see any cheeeese in Firefly?



You're right in saying that cheese is subjective. I don't mind crazy events, but sometimes something happens that shatters even the illusion that the show is setting up... something that just defies the shows own logic.

For example, Farscape actually tries to make use of conceptual science (biological ships, good use of atmospheric and vacuum effects, etc) but then will choose to ignore them later on. Just like Star Trek, it seems every planet's atmosphere is breathable and most aliens are bipedal. Why go through the trouble to have the occasional need for a space suit and some aliens that are different? It adds flavor, sure, but it seems to tear down their own illusions because it's inconsistent.

Firefly is consistent, the characters consistent, and I like it. Notice I say consistent, no predictable. Surprises happen, bit they always seem to fit withing the boundries that the show has established.

Farscape and Babylon 5 are strange and seem cheesier to me because of stark and obvious plot holes that force my attention back to reality for one reason or another.

But you said it... there's cheese everywhere. :)

I really love some of the directions that Farscape has gone and the idea of a modern day human dealing with alien worlds is a lot of fun. John's sarcastic comments crack me up.

Jim
Web: http://www.3rdedition.org
Blog: http://www.goingsfamily.com/jim

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 11:28 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by CapnRahn:
Myself - I watched 70+ episodes of "Babylon 5" - could NOT get into it and I am still trying to understand the draw. But that is my point -- these shows touch different things in different people. Just because I do not understand does not mean the show has NO merit. It just has not touched on any thing that I feel is required for my enjoyment of a story.



And intelligent and persuasive post ruined at the last

Seriously though, couldn't agree more with the reasons FF, FS and B5 work - each show began as the thoughts of one or more people and then the writing staff, cast and crew embraced the idea of putting those thoughts on screen - and actually seem to care about the end product.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 11:37 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
The comment about "intelligent writing" strikes me as odd. I would not consider that a trait of Farscape. It's a good show and is fun to watch, but intelligent writing? Seriously people, some of the cheesiest science fiction moments have appeared in this show.



Different strokes for different folks, but I think "intelligent writing" doesn't necessarily rule out cheese.

Check out the West Wing - whether you enjoy it or not, its hard to dipute that the writing isn't "intelligent" - but I'll concede its cheesy as hell.

I don't think it needs it, but to avoid the burning in the flames of spoiler hell - even for a three year old episode:

Select to view spoiler:



(CJ's bodyguard finishes his job protecting her and arranges to meet her for a date, then dies in a convenience store robbery



Despite the cheesy idea, the execution works for me. Besides, FS just takes a way out view on SF concepts - there are some pretty damned hard SF concepts in there (living ships, clones, mirror universes etc), with a twist. the way they deal with things may not be to everyone's tastes, but they flag up the tone of the show pretty early on - if its not for you, fair enough (though I see you're working your way through the show - it took a little while to grow on me as well).

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 11:45 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:

Space station life, made to look casual.



Very true - they even showed the bathroom!


Quote:


Interesting and engaging characters. Pick one, whether you liked them or not. SOMETHING happened to each and every one of them, whether you liked it or not. Biggest mistake was what happened to Marcus at the end of fourth season. Huge.



I wonder whether we will ever get to hear what JMS intended to be the 5 year story - had he not lost actors and the like. We know parts, but I think he has said he isn't intending to release the lot because it might detract from what there was. I think he's right not to do that, but I don't always listen to good advice...


Quote:


No sudden shock of cancellation.JMS said he was only doing 5 seasons, and that's what he did. It took some finageling, a deluge of letter-writing and a SOS or two, but when it came down to it, we knew when it was going to end. We never once had the rug pulled out from under us, we just had to change to a different channel. There was comfort in that.



He even annoyed several cast members by not taking money for season 6 which was apparently available. Heck, Jerry Doyle has tried to bring the show back on at least once (with self-evident levels of success)



"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 12:07 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
You're right in saying that cheese is subjective. I don't mind crazy events, but sometimes something happens that shatters even the illusion that the show is setting up... something that just defies the shows own logic.

For example, Farscape actually tries to make use of conceptual science (biological ships, good use of atmospheric and vacuum effects, etc) but then will choose to ignore them later on. Just like Star Trek, it seems every planet's atmosphere is breathable and most aliens are bipedal.



On the latter point, that's a problem caused by budget - if you are producing new aliens week in, week out, they are by and large going to be men and women in make up. FS did a fantastic job of doing something imaginative a number of times - Pilot for example, and many of the creatures avoided the Star Trek:TNG onwards problem of it being about funny noses and big hair.

Also, if you don't have a breathable atmosphere, your actors have to spend all their time in suits, which is creative death for writers and actors - save it for the odd episode.

I'm not sure I can recall FS ignoring the concept of the living ship - I'm aware you're only 1 and a bit seasons in so I won't spoil it for you, but Moya is as central to FS as Serenity to FF, and is truly am additional character in the real sense of the word.


Quote:


Firefly is consistent, the characters consistent, and I like it. Notice I say consistent, no predictable. Surprises happen, bit they always seem to fit withing the boundries that the show has established.



Your argument breaks down a little here - Farscape ran for 80+ episodes and Firefly didn't make 20.

I think people have pointed out inconsistencies in the episodes that were made (and have spent plenty of time analysing around them, myself included) - my biggest problem with the "science" is the vessel itself.

Serenity operates as well within atmosphere as without. Based on her size, have to say it seems a little hard to see how Serenity could go into an atmosphere - given how tight the money is, surely the cost of starting up the ship in atmos and taking off would be an unecessary luxury - hence the shuttles.

The fact is that neither FF or FS were "hard science", alhough FS took some hard science concepts on. Provided the logic leap didn't take you outside of the entertainment, they didn't seem to be aiming for a "reality". Compare that with Star Trek, which comes up with a hige level of technobabble to explain things, and B5 which was grounded in scientific reality - although generally stayed away from explicitly explaining it.

Quote:


Farscape and Babylon 5 are strange and seem cheesier to me because of stark and obvious plot holes that force my attention back to reality for one reason or another.



Which I guess answers one of my points above before I made it - not sure what plot holes you are referring to comment, but its fair comment that if you percieve a plot hole, it breaks the attention on the story sometimes.


"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 4:25 PM

REVOLOS55


Farscape is my favorite show, followed very very closely by Firefly and Buffy. I bow to the altars of David Kemper and Joss Whedon, Whedon more so because of his hattrick triple threat of shows. I was part of the movement to try and save Farscape, and while I can't speak for eveyone, I know that the fact that Firefly is getting the BDM treatment gives us hope that the same thing might be in Farscape's future.

"Normal is Boring" -Me

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 8:18 PM

BLUESUNWORSHIPPER


Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
I am halfway through season 2 of Farscape. It's a fun show, but it just doesn't compare to FireFly. My wife and I find ourselves laughing at the crazy events that occur.

The comment about "intelligent writing" strikes me as odd. I would not consider that a trait of Farscape. It's a good show and is fun to watch, but intelligent writing? Seriously people, some of the cheesiest science fiction moments have appeared in this show.

- Dargo hanging out in space for over half an hour? What about heat from the sun? What about the extreme cold? What about the vacuum of space? (this happened more than once which blows my mind)

- The characters seem bi-polar at times. At one point in season 1, the characters were so desperate to get home, they were willing to cut of the arm of pilot to give it the mad scientist alien dude (intelligent plot, huh?). Then, later on in the season, the characters profess much care and peace towards each other and other races. They also switch between hating each other and loving each other quite often. They will argue of stupid stuff and threated each other, and then spend months searching for and rescuing each other. Just doesn't seem like consistent characters overall.

- How about that Freaky Friday body-switching episode. Intelligent writing my butt.

I could go on and on. Despite the horrible plots and cheesy setups, the show has a lot of merits and I look forward to watching the rest of it. I merely suggest that Firefly and Farscape should never be compared to each other. One focuses on fun and adventure, setting realism and science aside, while the other embraces grit and reality, folding it into a fun and adventurous show.

Jim
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Okay, point in fact: if you're laughing at the odd events that occur and the character discrepancies, that's because you're only halfway through the second season. The changes are explained later on and fully explained by the climax. There's a reason for Crichton acting strangely, and there's a reason for...well, I won't spoil it.

My take on it is this, with the exception of 'Lexx', if you don't "get" a series, you have no right to comment on it. How can you make comparisons between a series you love and fully understand (Firefly) and something of which you have no clear concept (nuclear physics). Your comments come off as this: "Firefly is cool. Nuclear physics are stupid. What the heck is up with those weird neutrons? Nuclear physics should be cancelled."

Oh, and when I say "you", I don't mean YOU, specifically. I mean anybody who makes comparisons without a clear idea. You need to love a series to make good comparisons. If you don't love Farscape, don't knock it. Mostly 'cuz those of us that DO will become irritable. Nobody wants that.

Additionally, I make exceptions for making comments about 'Lexx' because, frankly, I do understand that show...and it's simply the stupidest excuse for television I have EVER seen. The movies...okay...but the series? Heck, no. Fuggedaboutit. Lexx Suxx, as the saying goes. A friend of mine coined that, in fact. I think he has it copyrighted.

Anyhoo, the two shows are COMPLETELY different. The only similarities are that they spend a lot of time in space and tend to shoot the bad guys. Oh, and both shows have the crew engaged in a robbery at some point. True story.

Oh, and Farscape DOES have "intelligent writing," I think even Joss would agree. Ask him.


- T

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 9:18 PM

JIMGOINGS


OK, we're almost done with season 2 now. I will absolutely admit that this show *does* have intelligent writing. It just seems that for some episodes, the writers smoked a bowl before typing it down.

No sooner did I make the comment about Dargo being in a vacuum than Crighton actually leaves one ship and hurls end over end and happens to land on the airlock of another moving ship (which of course he can open from the outside). The episode itself wasn't horrible, just that this scene was unecessarily cheesy. A spacesuit for that 20 second scene would have solved it. The writers seemed to actually want to create more excitement with John going into space without a suit. I don't know the science behind what happens to someone in space without a suit, but I can only imagine it would be a quick death (anyone actually know what would happen?).

Nitpicking aside, I am really enjoying the show. Please don't take my criticism for anything other than a little disappointment in an otherwise excellent show. I look forward to the rest of the show.

What do you mean that I can't comment on a series if I don't "get" it? That makes no sense to me. Also, what does the fact that FS lasted 80+ episodes while FF only lasted a dozen have to do with anything? I feel confident in saying that FF getting cancelled had nothing to do with the quality of the show. :D

Jim
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Monday, July 12, 2004 12:41 AM

OUTSIDER


I think the point is that after running for 4 seasons, it was inevitable that some plot inconsistencies would creep into Farscape, whereas it's far less likely that Firefly would suffer the same thing after less than 20 episodes.

All of the greats of movies and TV have inconsisitencies if you examine them too closely - the problem is defining what exactly constitutes a "plot inconsistency". As someone else said above, it's different strokes for different folks. One man's "major plot hole" on their inconsistency scale might not even register on someone else's.

And as a little sidenote, I have to just stick up for Babylon 5 for the moment. It remains, in my mind, the single most unique SF series of all time. No other show matches the scale of what Joe Straczynski accomplished with that show - and with a lot less money than either Farscape or Firefly had to work with. It was JMS who made the 'story arc' popular again with people other than soap fans. It was that show which effectively pioneered the use of CGI on a weekly television series. More than anything, though, it's one of the most compelling SF series ever.

Is it cheesy sometimes? Absolutley. But let's face it here - even Buffy and Angel could be cheesy occasionally (the snow starting to fall in "Amends", anyone?).

But if you can't get into B5, don't worry about it - neither could I to start with. I gave up on it several times, until I started catching late night repeats of Season Five. I got so hooked on that I went out and bought the VHS boxsets. Watching the show right the way through from start to finish, you really appreciate the impressive scale of the storytelling. It really is quite breathtaking at times.

And besides - how can anyone NOT be moved by some of G'Kar's speeches on Babylon 5?

"You're not entitled to your opinion... you're entitled to your INFORMED opinion."

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Monday, July 12, 2004 3:13 AM

BLUESUNWORSHIPPER


Quote:

Originally posted by Outsider:
I think the point is that after running for 4 seasons, it was inevitable that some plot inconsistencies would creep into Farscape, whereas it's far less likely that Firefly would suffer the same thing after less than 20 episodes.

All of the greats of movies and TV have inconsisitencies if you examine them too closely - the problem is defining what exactly constitutes a "plot inconsistency". As someone else said above, it's different strokes for different folks. One man's "major plot hole" on their inconsistency scale might not even register on someone else's.

And as a little sidenote, I have to just stick up for Babylon 5 for the moment. It remains, in my mind, the single most unique SF series of all time. No other show matches the scale of what Joe Straczynski accomplished with that show - and with a lot less money than either Farscape or Firefly had to work with. It was JMS who made the 'story arc' popular again with people other than soap fans. It was that show which effectively pioneered the use of CGI on a weekly television series. More than anything, though, it's one of the most compelling SF series ever.

Is it cheesy sometimes? Absolutley. But let's face it here - even Buffy and Angel could be cheesy occasionally (the snow starting to fall in "Amends", anyone?).

But if you can't get into B5, don't worry about it - neither could I to start with. I gave up on it several times, until I started catching late night repeats of Season Five. I got so hooked on that I went out and bought the VHS boxsets. Watching the show right the way through from start to finish, you really appreciate the impressive scale of the storytelling. It really is quite breathtaking at times.

And besides - how can anyone NOT be moved by some of G'Kar's speeches on Babylon 5?

"You're not entitled to your opinion... you're entitled to your INFORMED opinion."




Oh, ohhhhhhhhhhh...I just have to jump in again. The irate fanboy in me just can't give it up.

With regard to the 'Buffy' episode "Amends," the point of the snow falling was to show that Angel had been brought back by higher powers with a purpose. The snow falling was to keep him from committing suicide with the sunrise after a hallucinatory ordeal with a nasty baddie. 'Buffy' fans will agree that this is one of the high points of the series. Again with the "if you don't get it..." thing.

In comparing the budgets, I remember that 'Farscape's budget is roughly the same as that of B5's. The reason they have decent effects is that the whole thing is shot in Australia where everything is cheaper. They also are working with a small effects house that, until Farscape, had only done commercials to that point. I remember that B5's production house had about 40 old Amiga 4000's daisy-chained together in order to produce the effects, something that a modern PC could do on it's own with far less effort. Modern effects houses have it easy. To see really revolutionary effects, watch the old shows like classic Star Trek or Space: 1999, who had to make decent effects on a shoestring budget. Heck, the shots of the ships flying were a couple of union camera guys pushing the camera past a big model on a soundstage, hoping the move was smooth and that everything was lit just right after hours and hours of work. Today, you push a button and the spaceship flies.

Oh, I do have to say this, though: during the production of the Farscape miniseries (Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars) the production used so many explosives for their battle scenes that the country of Australia (where the series was filmed) actually RAN OUT OF EXPLOSIVES and they had to import them from the US. True story.

Anyhoo, kind of a useless rant, I know...but it's early in the morning, and my hackles are easily raised before morning coffee.


- T

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Monday, July 12, 2004 4:24 AM

BLUESUNWORSHIPPER


Dude, I even said in the post that I didn't mean "you", I meant people who make comparisons without knowing the whole story. Like the other dude (or dudette) said, "You're not entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to your INFORMED opinion." Not picking on you in particular, just in general...you dig?

- T (post-coffee)

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Monday, July 12, 2004 6:15 AM

DEANNAMAY


I love both Farscape and Firefly. For different reasons. Farscape had time to deal more with relationships and building of friendships. Firefly, in its brief life, had action and the possibility of friendships. One tried to set up a different sort of reality and science. One tried to set up a different future.

On the comment about having all bipedal aliens, don't forget Pilot, I don't think he even has feet. There was that lobster type alien with had claws when Rigel was kidnapped. It is simply cost that limits them to bipedal players. Too many puppets or special effects are costly.

I love both shows, but find them totally different and comparing them impossible except as follows.

From interviews it is apparent that the cast love their show, loved their character. We hear more of Firefly's cast opinions, but I know Ben Browder loves playing Crichton. The people behind the shows love the show. The people who watched the shows like thought-provoking ideas, rather than being fed a line.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 6:36 AM

BLUESUNWORSHIPPER


What's funny is that there's such a cross-pollination when it comes to Farscape and Firefly fans. There are fans of both, or fans of one or the other, but there's always the possibility of crossing over. I am known among many of my friends as "the bastard" for introducing them to 'Firefly' and 'Farscape' just before their cancellations. Everybody I know either has a Farscape set of DVD's, or the Firefly set. They're all unhappy that the shows were cancelled, but are excited about the Farscape mini, and/or about "Serenity."

I love my shows.


- T

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Monday, July 12, 2004 9:12 AM

OUTSIDER


Quote:

Oh, ohhhhhhhhhhh...I just have to jump in again. The irate fanboy in me just can't give it up.

With regard to the 'Buffy' episode "Amends," the point of the snow falling was to show that Angel had been brought back by higher powers with a purpose. The snow falling was to keep him from committing suicide with the sunrise after a hallucinatory ordeal with a nasty baddie. 'Buffy' fans will agree that this is one of the high points of the series. Again with the "if you don't get it..." thing.



I see your point, I just don't agree, sorry. No matter what the justification was for the snow, it was, is, and shall forever remain a cheesy moment. Now, I'm not saying that's neccessarily a bad thing, just that every show has them - even the greats. The fact that the occasional cheesy moment might creep in is no reason to not watch. Well, unless there's nothing but cheese, of course.

"You're not entitled to your opinion - you're entitled to your INFORMED opinion." Harlan Ellison.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 9:36 AM

BLUESUNWORSHIPPER


You bad man. You go squish now.

While I like 'Buffy', I'm only really a fan of the supporting cast, the storylines, etcetera. I'm not a big fan of SMG, even less so now that she's gone all prima-donna, if that is indeed the case. I always liked Giles, Willow (pre-Uberwitch Willow especially), Xander and Anya...and to a lesser extent Oz and the villains. I actually prefer the Angel series to Buffy on many points. Firefly, though, trumps them both. Why, oh why, are there only the handful of eppies for us to enjoy.

Joss, I beseech you, bring forth more Firefly than those lowwwwwwwwwly bits that have been bequeathed you by the studio. The movie is gonna be great 'n' all, but we - your humble servants - require more. We say, invite everybody over for a party once a week and videotape an eppy with a camcorder. Use paper cutouts for spaceships...pie plates, WHATEVER! Just gives us our preciousssssss.

Ahem.

Yeah, um, sorry about that.


- T

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Monday, July 12, 2004 5:16 PM

JIMGOINGS


So is Buffy worth watching? Never thought about it until Firefly came along. A few folks have recommended it saying that the humor is similar to that in FF. Thoughts? Worth it?

Series I loved so far:
24
Alias
Babylon 5 (although season 5 isn't great)
Carnivale
Firefly
Sopranos

Should Buffy fall in there somewhere?

Jim
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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:38 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
OK, we're almost done with season 2 now. I will absolutely admit that this show *does* have intelligent writing. It just seems that for some episodes, the writers smoked a bowl before typing it down.{/QUOTE]

ohhh, you aren't even close yet. Wait till you see Scratch and Sniff - they smoked all the bowls, lit up a kiln and made some more bowls before smoking those....

Quote:


Also, what does the fact that FS lasted 80+ episodes while FF only lasted a dozen have to do with anything? I feel confident in saying that FF getting cancelled had nothing to do with the quality of the show. :D



Outsider covered it - meant that the more shows, the more inconsistencies creep in, not a comment on the (very high) quality of both shows.


"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:41 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by Outsider:
And besides - how can anyone NOT be moved by some of G'Kar's speeches on Babylon 5?



I was in the audience at a con when Andreas went off stage and from behind the curtain read the opening lines of something Joe had just written that weekend - the closing speech from Z'Ha'Dum. Chills down the gorram spine.

Quote:


"You're not entitled to your opinion... you're entitled to your INFORMED opinion."



Whoa - good Ellison - and shame on those who missed the ref

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:50 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSunWorshipper:
In comparing the budgets, I remember that 'Farscape's budget is roughly the same as that of B5's. The reason they have decent effects is that the whole thing is shot in Australia where everything is cheaper. They also are working with a small effects house that, until Farscape, had only done commercials to that point. I remember that B5's production house had about 40 old Amiga 4000's daisy-chained together in order to produce the effects, something that a modern PC could do on it's own with far less effort.



Really? Have to admit I've not seen the budget figures for FS but had always assumed that even with the exchange rate I thought it was more than B5.

Based on not very much research (farscapeworld.com) it appears they had $1.5 million US. I seem to recall that Trek oft gets quoted in the region of $1.75-2 mill whereas B5 was $750K odd. I know JMS has often said they were working at something like half the Trek budget.

Still, FS put every penny on screen - that scene with Scorpy in the command room and the water flowing, then that explosion.










"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:14 PM

BLUESUNWORSHIPPER


B5 was always just under a mill, between $800-900,000 per eppy. Farscape started off at around $1.2 million an episode, which is about the same in adjusted dollars. Also, recall that B5 for it's early seasons was produced in much the same way as Farscape - in a small, independent studio for syndication, whereas Farscape was produced in a small, independent studio (Homebush Bay) for a single cable channel. It was only later that B5 was produced for TNT with an adjusted budget. Still, you gotta admit, the production values on both shows, while not too bad, represented as much cash as they could throw at it. Shows like "Enterprise" have higher budgets, better sets, but their stories stink. Give me "Doctor Who" over "Andromeda" just about any day.

- T

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Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:40 PM

KMINFINITY


Quote:

Originally posted by jimgoings:
So is Buffy worth watching?



Most definitely.

One thing about Farscape. More than any other show, it really requires (imo) that you watch it from the beginning. Despite the networks' obsession with "stand alone" episodes, I was able to jump into Buffy and Angel in their later seasons and instantly become a fan. Not so with Farscape. I've decided, because of things I've read (such as in this thread) and because of the ardent recommendation of friends, that I must watch the show, but I'm going to watch it in order via DVDs...one season at a time.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 10:05 AM

MARYA


Quote:

Originally posted by KMInfinity:

One thing about Farscape. More than any other show, it really requires (imo) that you watch it from the beginning.

No, not really, although it certainly helps. I didn't get hooked until the end of season 3, watching Fractures to be exact. I couldn't work out was was going on but whatever it was, it was pretty intense. So I kept watching and trying to work it out. After the season finished I really had to know how it all started and ordered the very first DVD's. Amazing to see the differences in the characters, especially in Crichton. At the start he really is a wide-eyed innocent trying to feel his way in a strange environment, trying to talk his way out of everything and only resorting to violence as a last resort. That changes a bit.

I envy you. I would like to see it all again for the first time!

... and on a completely different subject, can anybody tell me how to work these emoticons? This is my first post and I am stilling trying to get the hang of it. I am slightly embarassed that it should be in a thread devoted to Farscape but I promise to make amends ...

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Monday, July 19, 2004 10:17 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER


Quote:

Originally posted by Marya:

Amazing to see the differences in the characters, especially in Crichton. At the start he really is a wide-eyed innocent trying to feel his way in a strange environment, trying to talk his way out of everything and only resorting to violence as a last resort. That changes a bit.

I envy you. I would like to see it all again for the first time!



I love both FarScape and Firefly but not for the similarities, but because of the differences.
In FarScape you get to see the changes that occur in John from that wide eyed innocent to what he is by the end of Season 4... where as with Mal, the changes have already happened. I mean, John has more in common with Simon then he does Mal really.
And this is just an example. It isn't to say that Mal won't evolve as a character is some way. Kaylee will soften him up, I just know it. LOL
And besides, wasn't the first post to point out the similarities in the fandoms and not the show??
One thing we both have in common, (and I say that as a Scaper), is both fandoms got our shows back. That is no small feat BTW.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marya:
... and on a completely different subject, can anybody tell me how to work these emoticons? This is my first post and I am stilling trying to get the hang of it. I am slightly embarassed that it should be in a thread devoted to Farscape but I promise to make amends ...



I think you just type in the code and it appears in your post.
Lemme try.


Edit: yep, it works.


"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

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Monday, July 19, 2004 10:50 AM

MARYA


Quote:

I love both FarScape and Firefly but not for the somilarities, but because of the difference.
In FarScape you get to see the changes that occur in John from that wide eyed innocent to what he is by the end of Season 4... where as with Mal, the changes have already happened. I mean, John has more in common with Simon then he does Mal really.



I agree with you on your comparison of John with Simon. They are both fish out of water and learning to cope in their strange new life. It would have been very interesting to see how Simon would have turned out. Over the course of at least another 3 seasons, frell, why not 6. Seems to me he has a lot of potential.

Thanks for the emoticon tip. How stupid can you (or rather: me) get? My only excuse is that I had a bad, bad day. Did I say bad? Believe me, it was bad. Going to have another like that tomorrow by the looks of it.



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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:00 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER


Quote:

Originally posted by Marya:


Thanks for the emoticon tip. How stupid can you (or rather: me) get? My only excuse is that I had a bad, bad day. Did I say bad? Believe me, it was bad. Going to have another like that tomorrow by the looks of it.



I'm still figuring things out on this board too. I joined a while back, but only lurked...

& Here's to hoping your day goes better then you think.

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:34 AM

MARYA


Quote:


Here's to hoping your day goes better then you think.



It did, thanks Tomorrow they are going to park the Queen Mary II in front of our office. Looking forward to that! Serenity would be better of course but hey, if wishes were horses ....

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:42 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER


Quote:

Originally posted by Marya:
Serenity would be better of course but hey, if wishes were horses ....



Doesn't that saying end with someone not being hungry any more? *shudders* LOL

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:46 AM

SIMONF


It's nice when the fans win.

I await the crossover fics. 'Firescape' for want of a better word.

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