GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Jayne wanted to be a Shepherd but he got stupid

POSTED BY: PIRATEJENNY
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:19
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Friday, October 1, 2004 8:05 AM

PIRATEJENNY


So Jayne wanted to be a Shepherd , at least that's what he says to the question Book asked him when River read his mind

does anyone have any thoughts about this, he said the money was too good and he got stupid...I guess this is why he bonded so quickly with book.

I guess thats just another layer to Jaynes canine personality


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Friday, October 1, 2004 8:37 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
Does anyone have any thoughts about this, he said the money was too good and he got stupid...I guess this is why he bonded so quickly with book.

That statement only takes place in River's mind, that's my thought. Just as the others do.

Simon: "I'd be there right now."

Inara: "I'm a big girl, just tell me."

Mal: "None of it means a damn thing."

Book: "I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not. Now where does that leave you?"

The give away is the total silence that coincides with each one. There's a sound like an ocean wave immediately prior to and following each statement. She hears it, then *POW* we're back to reality again.

Jayne was referring to the incident on Ariel, when he succombed to the allure of the sizable reward for the Tams and all but turned Simon and River in. He would have gone through with it, if only the Feds hadn't tried to pinch him in the process. Jayne Cobb ain't going down for nobody.

My thought is that Jayne really should have known better than to try to deal with the Feds for any reason. I can't believe his record is lily white, plus he could be held guilty by association, depending on what the Feds have on record for any of his previous associates, before he started to crew with Serenity.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Friday, October 1, 2004 8:38 AM

BENCHCOAT


is this from Objects in Space? I guess I need to rewatch that one

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Friday, October 1, 2004 9:10 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
Jayne was referring to the incident on Ariel, when he succombed to the allure of the sizable reward for the Tams and all but turned Simon and River in. He would have gone through with it, if only the Feds hadn't tried to pinch him in the process. Jayne Cobb ain't going down for nobody.

My thought is that Jayne really should have known better than to try to deal with the Feds for any reason. I can't believe his record is lily white, plus he could be held guilty by association, depending on what the Feds have on record for any of his previous associates, before he started to crew with Serenity.



My thoughts exactly Channy!

I don't think Jayne ever wanted to be a preacher.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, October 1, 2004 10:02 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I don't think Jayne ever wanted to be a preacher.

OH! Hey, I know one reason why he might! When he was, like 8 or something and getting dragged to church services. He saw the offering plate go by and said something like,

"Dang, I wanna be a preacher, looks like easy money."

Then got smacked on the back of his head by his momma.



We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 2:00 AM

WILDHEAVENFARM


The biggest obstacle I would see to Jayne becoming a Shepherd (apart from all the quietly sitting still) would be the celibacy, hands down.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 2:46 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Don't the Bible got some pretty specific things to say about gay folks?

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 10:14 AM

WILDHEAVENFARM


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Don't the Bible got some pretty specific things to say about gay folks?



See, now there I was being good, not being slashy at all, but since you brought it up ... Wait, why did you bring up the gay thing?

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Sunday, October 3, 2004 10:07 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
When he was, like 8 or something and getting dragged to church services. He saw the offering plate go by and said something like,

"Dang, I wanna be a preacher, looks like easy money."

Then got smacked on the back of his head by his momma.

Now that I can see.



-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, October 3, 2004 3:13 PM

LIVIDLIQUID


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Don't the Bible got some pretty specific things to say about gay folks?



Not specific at all. In fact, the bible doesn't actually condemn homosexuality it all. It simply says man shall not lie with man as man lies with woman. There's some argument about the meaning here, as this passage is a translation of a translation, so there's plenty of opportunity for information to be bent.

The other excuse people always use for "those damn queers being against god" is Sodom and Gomorrah. Nevermind the fact that these particular sodomites were making the attempt to anally rape angels. That part always gets conveniently ignored.

The rules of sodom state that any sexual act that doesn't lead to procreation is sodomy. Not just sex. Any act. Kissing is sodomy. Ever kissed somebody? Eep. That's a big no-no.

But then... The rules of Sodomy were written by a European dude in the gorram dark ages. Many many many years after the Bible. People were speaking English, for fook's sake.


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Monday, October 4, 2004 3:35 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
OH! Hey, I know one reason why he might! When he was, like 8 or something and getting dragged to church services. He saw the offering plate go by and said something like,

"Dang, I wanna be a preacher, looks like easy money."

Then got smacked on the back of his head by his momma.




LOL

I never looked at it like that Channy. Could be you are right.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Monday, October 4, 2004 3:40 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by LividLiquid:
Many many many years after the Bible. People were speaking English, for fook's sake.


You mean, God doesn't speak English?

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Monday, October 4, 2004 7:17 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by LividLiquid:
Many many many years after the Bible. People were speaking English, for fook's sake.

Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
You mean, God doesn't speak English?

God, yes. The folks who recorded the events in the Bible? Not so much. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was originally written in Greek. The whole thing was then translated to Latin... I forget when exactly, but during the infancy of bookmaking. THEN it was translated to English. There was also something on the History Channel just recently about how the Old Testament originally had no punctuation in it. Hebrew as a language was designed with punctuation, yet the writers of the OT chose not to use it, so now some enterprising folk are exploring the theory that the Bible was originally written in code.

And if memory serves me, that part of "Man shall not lie with man as man lies with a woman" was written by the Apostle Paul in the New Testament, right? Paul was a busy guy and gets a lot of credit for writing Christian scripture, but how much of that was his beliefs, and how much was Divine intervention?

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Monday, October 4, 2004 8:47 AM

THEGREYJEDI


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
Quote:

Originally posted by LividLiquid:
Many many many years after the Bible. People were speaking English, for fook's sake.

Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
You mean, God doesn't speak English?

God, yes. The folks who recorded the events in the Bible? Not so much. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was originally written in Greek. The whole thing was then translated to Latin... I forget when exactly, but during the infancy of bookmaking. THEN it was translated to English. There was also something on the History Channel just recently about how the Old Testament originally had no punctuation in it. Hebrew as a language was designed with punctuation, yet the writers of the OT chose not to use it, so now some enterprising folk are exploring the theory that the Bible was originally written in code.

And if memory serves me, that part of "Man shall not lie with man as man lies with a woman" was written by the Apostle Paul in the New Testament, right? Paul was a busy guy and gets a lot of credit for writing Christian scripture, but how much of that was his beliefs, and how much was Divine intervention?

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922



God Boy to the, erm, supplying of the specifics...

1 Corinthians Chapter 6 verse 9 (New International Version): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor the idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders..."

St. Paul makes many mentions and condemnations of sexual immorality in his First Letter to the Corinthians as well as the Books of Ephesians and First Timothy.

While the King James Version was originally translated from the latin translations of the Hebrew and Greek texts, more modern translations are taken from the original sources as possible. There is even, if memory serves, a New King James Version, with better translation but still keeping with the language of the 1600's. Which is where I come to a point of contention with using the King James Version in general usage. The English of that era isn't the English of our era. Better understanding through modern vernacular. In it's day, the KJV was the modern vernacular, and easy for anyone who could hear and understand English to grasp. However, the KJV is very pretty and formal. And, incidentally, a useful tool for speaking the language of the day if you happen to be a re-enactor.

And so I can remain on topic, I also don't think Jayne ever really intended to be a preacher, thought the "easy money" comment and thwapping I can see. Heh.

--------------------------------------------------
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Monday, October 4, 2004 1:49 PM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
You mean, God doesn't speak English?



"The Pope may be French, but Jesus was English!" --A Knight's Tale



-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, October 4, 2004 1:59 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

You mean, God doesn't speak English?

Does that mean god's not some white dude, either?

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Tuesday, October 5, 2004 8:50 AM

KASUO


Is the Space Pope reptilian?

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Wednesday, October 6, 2004 9:37 AM

GWENHARKER


Although what he was referring to had to do with Ariel, its not a bad notion.

IMHO, I think Jayne came from one of those families that went to church on sundays and their pops said grace at meals and such. He just seems to come from one of those types of families. The only thing I can seem to visually compare it to is a house with three or four rascal-y boys, a quiet, nice mom, and a hardworking 'you-pull-yer-weight-around-this-house-and-'spect-yer-mother' type father. Those type of families in entertainment seem to be what I described up top.

I say this because, when watching 'The Message' last night, Jayne's comments to Book about the Lord, etc and so forth (along with how he sends money back home and all) seems to come from a slightly religious upbringing.


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Wednesday, October 6, 2004 11:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
So Jayne wanted to be a Shepherd , at least that's what he says to the question Book asked him when River read his mind

does anyone have any thoughts about this, he said the money was too good and he got stupid...I guess this is why he bonded so quickly with book.

I guess thats just another layer to Jaynes canine personality




Jayne isn't talking to Book in that instance where he says " I got stupid, the money was too good". That clearly is a reference to Ariel, where Jayne sold out River and Simon to the Alliance. Later, River tells Simon that Jayne is a liar. River knows, and through her, Simon learns how 'heroic' Jayne really was back on Ariel. Jayne only saves River and Simon after the Alliance double crosses him.

There might be a level of respect that Jayne has for Book. Jayne clearly is a god fearing man, in his own way. But I have little doubt that Jayne ever seriously would consider becoming a Shepherd himself.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, October 7, 2004 1:14 PM

LJOSALF


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Jayne isn't talking to Book in that instance where he says " I got stupid, the money was too good". That clearly is a reference to Ariel, where Jayne sold out River and Simon to the Alliance. Later, River tells Simon that Jayne is a liar. River knows, and through her, Simon learns how 'heroic' Jayne really was back on Ariel. Jayne only saves River and Simon after the Alliance double crosses him.



When does River say that Jayne is a liar?

Are you referring to this interchange in Trash:

JAYNE
Captain says you're to stay put.
Doesn't want you runnin' afoul of his
blushin' psychotic bride. She
figures out who you are, she'll turn
you in 'fore you can... say... "don't
turn me in, lady".
SIMON
The bounty on us just keeps getting
more exciting.
JAYNE
(busying himself)
Well, I wouldn't know.
RIVER
(looking at Jayne)
She's a liar.
JAYNE
That don't exactly set her apart from
the rest of us. And the plunder
sounds fun enough.
RIVER
She's a liar and no good will come of
her.
JAYNE
Well, I say as a rule that girlfolk
ain't to be trusted.
RIVER
Jayne is a girl's name.

I read this as River picking up that Jayne thinks that YoSafBridge is a liar and no good. The very next moment, he is contemplating that, if given the opportunity, YSB would do exactly the same thing that he tried to do on Ariel and is uncomfortable with looking at his own actions from this perspective which is why he stumbles completing his turn of phrase and ends somewhat foolishly with "...lady, don't turn me in." River's reading slides right into Jayne's discomfort and at the end of the scene she explains to Simon that Jayne is afraid they will find out what he did. I don't recall her ever directly calling him a liar and in Ariel Jayne tries pretty hard to downplay his "heroic" actions during the escape.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Thursday, October 7, 2004 1:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yep, that's the scene I was trying to remember. Jayne tries to get out of the whole bounty topic by saying he doesn't know, in response to Simon's comment. After Jayne leaves, River says Jayne's afraid "we'll know" , about Ariel. Simon soon gets clued in to what she means, as was again picked up on during Trash, and the infamous - "and I can kill you with my brain" scene. hee hee.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, October 8, 2004 3:24 AM

WILDHEAVENFARM


Gorram, Purplebelly, you still haven't told me why you brought up the gay thing. to paraphrase Wash: Who was gay? I wanna hear about the gay thing.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Friday, October 8, 2004 12:49 PM

YT

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Don't the Bible got some pretty specific things to say about gay folks?



It's warm & fuzzier on the subject of knee caps.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Stevie Ray Vaughan, "Couldn't Stand the Weather"

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Sunday, October 10, 2004 10:33 AM

BROWNCOATFAN1


the statement was i think in rivers mind or what jayne was thining at the time

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Sunday, October 10, 2004 12:08 PM

GEORDIESTEVE2003


and we should believe anything written in this work of fiction (the bible) over any other book of stories because.....????

and I agree with what was said earlier, its not that he wanted to be a preacher at all.

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Sunday, October 10, 2004 1:22 PM

THEREALME


Quote:

Originally posted by WildHeavenFarm:
Gorram, Purplebelly, you still haven't told me why you brought up the gay thing. to paraphrase Wash: Who was gay? I wanna hear about the gay thing.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.



WildHeavenFarm,

Purplebelly is the devil's advocate of this board, a role that he (I believe that PB is male) plays so well. In fact, he walks that fine line separating him from that long fall into trolldom. We have kept him because he is often entertaining...



In short, he says such things to get you to respond as you have been doing.




The Real Me

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:04 AM

WILDHEAVENFARM


Quote:



In short, he says such things to get you to respond as you have been doing.

The Real Me



Gorrammit! I wanted this thread to go down a seedy, slashy road.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:37 AM

PURPLEBELLY


I'm sure you'd get lots of response if you started a Why is Jayne gay? thread

IMHO: Jayne, while gay, is not happy. That's why he needs a supportive relationship with Simon. But that won't happen until River is safe ... and so on to Purplebelly's Denouement

EDIT: Jayne's relationship with Book is affirming and a good start, but not really healing to a soul who's been hurting since childhood.

BTW: Last time I checked, Purplebelly was male

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:55 PM

THEREALME


Yes, but you forgot to conclude with, "Only Purplebelly believes any of this!"



Sorry, I wasn't sure about your gender. I didn't want to start up another Ebo thing.



Say, isn't it about time to resurrect the thread with PurpleBelly's Denouement?

One of the most depressing things I've read in a while...




The Real Me

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:01 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Yes, but you forgot to conclude with, "Only Purplebelly believes any of this!"


Hey, lots of people believe Purplebelly is male

I'm too modest to start threads, but Purplebelly's Denouement is probably googlable. It inverts characters' personae, but only kills one character and four of the remainder live happily-ever-after so it's still less depressing than the world outside. You're right though, I'm just a Devil's Advocate trying to help people think of more than one right rather than promoting my own beliefs.

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Sunday, October 17, 2004 9:51 AM

SHANYU


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:

Jayne was referring to the incident on Ariel, when he succombed to the allure of the sizable reward for the Tams and all but turned Simon and River in. He would have gone through with it, if only the Feds hadn't tried to pinch him in the process. Jayne Cobb ain't going down for nobody.




I agree with you but he may also have been talking about the incident in Jaynes Town, he got stupid and threw his friend outta the ship, because the money was too good.

"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"

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Monday, October 18, 2004 8:22 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by ShanYu:
I agree with you but he may also have been talking about the incident in Jaynes Town, he got stupid and threw his friend outta the ship, because the money was too good.

Yeah, could be. Only I wouldn't call Stich Hessian a friend so much as a business associate. Jayne certainly didn't appear to harbor any guilt whatsoever over causing Stich harm. He was more disturbed that the kid died saving him, and dispatched Stich right quick after that happened with no remorse whatsoever for Stich.

At the end of "Ariel," though, when he was about to get sucked out into space, he was worried about how the crew would remember him. "Don't tell 'em what I done," he said. That implies an unusually guilty conscience - something I wasn't sure Jayne had until that point. It's further reflected in "The Message," when the crew comments on how Jayne his sharing his share of the "Ariel" loot by way of buying apples for everybody. Jayne's not the sharing sort either. It's like he knows he has to make up for something.

Then again, it all could have been a craftily played ruse for Mal's benefit, expressing a guilty conscience to avoid getting sucked into space, and further displaying it for Mal's continued assurance to avoid having it happen in the future. That would imply that Jayne is a criminal mastermind, which I can't write without giggling. You be the judge.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am.
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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:53 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
That would imply that Jayne is a criminal mastermind, which I can't write without giggling.



You just made me flash back to one of my favourite The Lion King lines.

Quote:

"Who's the brains of this operation?!?"
"Uhhhh. . ."
"My point exactly."



(Imagine it with Mal & Jayne [or better yet, Wash & Jayne].)

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:57 AM

CRAZYHORSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:


Then again, it all could have been a craftily played ruse for Mal's benefit, expressing a guilty conscience to avoid getting sucked into space, and further displaying it for Mal's continued assurance to avoid having it happen in the future. That would imply that Jayne is a criminal mastermind, which I can't write without giggling. You be the judge.





Criminal mastermind? LOL!!! Yeah.. sure XD

While I agree that Jayne would say whatever necesary to save his @$$, I felt that the thought of being remembered as a sellout actually really bothered him. And that's what I love about the character.



"That hat makes you look like an idiot.."

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:13 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by CrazyHorse:
While I agree that Jayne would say whatever necesary to save his @$$, I felt that the thought of being remembered as a sellout actually really bothered him. And that's what I love about the character.

Me too Or maybe he didn't want to be remembered as the fella who didn't get away with what could have been the biggest score of his life (provided he hadn't been working with the Feds, of course) and didn't want folks laughing over the way he tried to do something so insanely stupid.

NAHHHHHH. I think when it comes down to it, Jayne will always do the right thing... I've said that to people.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am.
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:16 AM

YT

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
You just made me flash back to one of my favourite The Lion King lines.

Quote:

"Who's the brains of this operation?!?"
"Uhhhh. . ."
"My point exactly."



(Imagine it with Mal & Jayne [or better yet, Wash & Jayne].)


I can imagine (under unusual circumstances) Wash & Jayne hatching some scheme, @which point the dialogue would come from
Zoe:
either of the guys, maybe both:
& Zoe:

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Derek Trucks Band, "Kickin' Back", from "Out of the Madness"

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:19 AM

CRAZYHORSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:


NAHHHHHH. I think when it comes down to it, Jayne will always do the right thing... I've said that to people.

QUOTE]

Definately agree with that.

And as hard as I try to wrap my brain around it, I can't picture him actually being or wanting to be a Shepard. Just, can't get those two puzzle peices to fit next to each other in my mind. But I also agree with whoever it was who was talking about his possible family. "respect your momma and pull your weight around here etc." ^^

"That hat makes you look like an idiot.."

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