Dollhouse: Briar Rose - Echo becomes Sleeping Beauty and dreams of her Firefly Prince. Post comments here. by Haken

Watching it as we speak.......been a bad Joss fan, this is the 1st ep I've watched....watched because of Alan. Not dissapointed. Amazing as always......Gotta love Wash.

_____
"He was mostly brave.....MOSTLY??!?!...he was brave..."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Oh, I'm going to that special hell, for not watching more Dollhouse. But maybe I can get a comfy seat in that special hell for watching tonight.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:50 PM

America loves a winner!

Whoa! Watch it there w/ the blade!!

Didn't see THAT comin'!

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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:55 PM

America loves a winner!

I don't like seeing Amy crying.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:57 PM

Ooooooooooh! Now I see!!

_____
"He was mostly brave.....MOSTLY??!?!...he was brave..."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:58 PM

Hmmmm. Didn't see that coming

_____
"He was mostly brave.....MOSTLY??!?!...he was brave..."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:05 PM

GOOSE5068

This episode was sweet. I liked that they didn't reveal alpha until the very end. I thought the episode was very well done and Alan played his part beutiful and how he went from a crazy high gut to alpha. The previews for the next episode looks awsome.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:10 PM

Agreed!! Goofy Alan to crazy Alan. Excellent!.....and yes, next week's looks great too!

_____
"He was mostly brave.....MOSTLY??!?!...he was brave..."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:11 PM

SCHISM

Great ep.
One issue.
Big issue.

You're telling me that the secret fortress for the highly secretive underground organization was kept secure from intruders by a BRIGHTLY LIT GRATE THAT REQUIRED NO TOOLS TO REMOVE AND ALLOW ENTRY???

Not only is that bad security, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen!

If he had tried at least ONE walk-around of the facility first he would have found his way in WITHOUT the designer's help!

Still loved the ep though.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:14 PM

KACIDILLA

still think that my favorite line was the "medicinal carrots" line. :) CANNOT wait for next week - more answers and questions are sure to come!

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:16 PM

KHAMBILO

AH!!!! We've been waiting the entire season for this!

by the way

Select to view spoiler:

totally called the Echo/Alpha pairing, but i never thought that it would happen that way, and i mean the episode as well. The title suggested that it would be Paul saving Echo, not Alpha. COMPLETELY unexpected!

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:29 PM

CELLARDOOR

Because I like to make these Firefly connections: I found the small "Jaynestown" vibe from the disturbed/abused girl "fixing" the book rather interesting. Seemed so much like River "fixing" Book's Bible. Also, we got a similar speech about people being no more than (essentially, though the words were different) objects in space. They were momentary only, but I still wanted to note the brief allusions to Firefly.

I was highly impressed by this episode. Alan's acting range is pretty much incredible, not to mention Enver's too, wow! I do have to admit that I liked Topher's part in all of this tonight, both for the role he was proud of and for the role he seemed absolutely ashamed of and uncomfortable with. Paul pretty much made me sick though, shutting the glass pane on M/N as though she were a completely lost cause, and only caring about Caroline... He's no hero as we traditionally define one. =\

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:33 PM

KIRKULES

Alan's excellent acting almost made this episode enjoyable, almost.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:34 PM

AGLAIA

I thought it was a great episode. I can only hope it's not too late. Alan was fantastic.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:52 PM

SCHISM

Here's the question....are they gonna kill him off, or let him survive and make a return possible?

Should a second season exist, that is.

And what will become of Victor? Kinda hard to get a job woo'ing old rich ladies when your face is all cut up.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:56 PM

America loves a winner!

schism

Quote:
You're telling me that the secret fortress for the highly secretive underground organization was kept secure from intruders by a BRIGHTLY LIT GRATE THAT REQUIRED NO TOOLS TO REMOVE AND ALLOW ENTRY???

It's the oldest trick in the book. Hiding in plain sight.

Or they were too busy writing plot ?

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:58 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
And what will become of Victor? Kinda hard to get a job woo'ing old rich ladies when your face is all cut up.

"Bones heal. Chicks dig scars. And the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world!"

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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:03 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

It was good to see Wash again. Almost the same character in War Stories. Then the evil Angel came out to play.

And good to see Faith again. That's her forte.

I liked Joss's jab at Fox:

Quote:
"They call that editing. You can make a living at that."
-Echo, Dollhouse, Briar Rose

"Hahaha! Mine is an evil laugh."
-Alpha, Dollhouse, Briar Rose (deleted scene)

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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:34 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Some things from the ep that I can still remember:

My new PNY 8G flash drive was in Dewitt’s hand (right before the weatherman interupted the show for a couple minutes. Damn supercells.)!

Medicinal carrots. Well, they are.

Darn, I was hoping Alpha and Paul were gonna to be wacky partners for a couple episodes.

Ooh, *that’s* why Dr. Amy’s face was all scarry. Must be Alpha’s weapon of choice.

Besides the intense last quarter, this was probably the funniest ep.
Good show. Me want more.

I’m gonna guess if the LA Dollhouse ever gets exposed to the public or if the other Dollhouses learn that the LA branch is close to being revealed, it will be up to the other DH’s to clean it up.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:50 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I KNEW it!

[/sig]

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Friday, May 1, 2009 8:52 PM

PEULSAR5

We sniff the air, we don't kiss the dirt.

As I said on another thread: Didn't it feel great to yell "DAMN YOU JOSS WHEDON!!" at the television again?

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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:49 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Hard to say, I'm hard to please because of FF. Joss has set the bar very high.
------------------------------------------
Here goes nothing:

Ballard is really annoying me. Could it be that Joss wrote the character that way, a la Capt. Hammer, to be the totally inept hero? He goes in alone, obsessed and blind with self-importance, that he totally disregards the fact that this is a highly sophisticated organization that cannot be taken down by one man. Question: Why is he so obsessed with Caroline?

He also ignores the warnings by Boyd that he was endangering Echo's life (and his own for that matter), he had no plan of escape. He just wanted to prove that he was right about the DH. I actually was rooting for Boyd to stop him and 'save' Echo. Joss really likes playing with hero themes and this ep brought it out in spades. I think Boyd here is the Firefly Prince, I get the feeling that he really cares what happens to Echo.
Whereas Ballard, IMO, only wants to prove he's right about the DH. His actions could get Echo killed.

Loved Alan's perf. He was funny and scary at the right time; that usually means good writing. Jane has done it again. Although I did have some minor picadillos - 2 instances actually - when Ballard follows Mellie and sees the garage entrance to the DH and he says, "So, it's real." Spare me please, we know it's real, we don't need him telling us (silence is golden). And again when He and Alpha enter the DH. There was no need for words, a reaction shot would suffice thank you very much. (Am I being to picky, I could never tell).

Topher's moment of pride was actually very shiny. I thought it was his way of giving something back to Echo, after exposing Mr. Dominic.

Back to Alan as Alpha. He used Ballard to run interference for him, and the rest you know. I was convinced he was the building designer, but he was equally good as Alpha. I must see it again to get all the nuances of the dialogue. Did it deliver? Yes, with a few minor annoyances.

Will it be enough to save DH from the chopping block? Jury's still out, but it may very well be too little, too late.
--------------------------------------------

Let me throw in my own question: Do I want more?
Yes, please! Now that "Wash" is here: it gonna get GOOD!

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 3:17 AM

CYBERSNARK

After seeing how Echo's imprint was based on the little girl, I was expecting Alan's character to be an imprint based on Topher.

And yeah, I was hoping for more "Helo/Wash" buddy-cop moments.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 4:25 AM

BULLETT

hi--new here, but couldn't keep myself from commenting on this episode of dollhouse.

i totally did not see alan turning into alpha, i was convinced that he was the eco guy till he cut up victors face. this episode was the best so far.

and i agree that paul only wanted to prove that the dh was there, not to rescue echo.

and wow, what an ending.

i belive in never, i belive in all the way

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 5:04 AM

TOTALLY SAW THAT COMING BUT IT WAS STILL JUST AS EXCITING TO WATCH!!

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 5:47 AM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."

ALAN WAS AWESOME! and he scared the daylights out of me. Me and my friend at work had figured out a couple of ways it may go, I was one that was right. He was so good! I can't wait to see how 'bad' he really is, I'm sure Alpha is just starting to get his revenge. Its gonna get much worst, and this is the 'perfect enemy', one of their own is gonna destroy them. Excellant as usual, Joss! I just wish they had left you alone for the whole show.
Where does Alpha go from here?

Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion

Do not bother dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 5:52 AM

MSA

Totally seconding the Alan scared me thing... ok maybe he could be a slightly less talented actor and less convincingly eeeeeek. When he slashes Victor suddenly and his face changes it freaked me out!!

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 5:59 AM

GWEK

A decent episode, as far as Dollhouse episodes go. On the upside, it was "very Joss."

On the downside... "very Joss."

Felt like I've seen most of it before, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but, c'mon, who didn't know Tudyk's character was gonna be Alpha? If you've seen enough of Joss's stuff, you can almost call the MINUTE the reveal was going to happen...

This episode also continued the unfortunate trend where the "mission" (and therefore the Dushku stuff) was pretty boring. I mean, it was an interesting idea, but the execution was pretty weak.

The end twist was cool, but not in an "Oh my God, that's awesome!" way so much as a "Well, okay, not quite what I expected" way. I't also interesting that they've actually figured out a plausible way to have Boyd and Ballard, and possibly even Dominic work together, if they want.

Overall, despite my griping, a decent episode, and I give it a 6/10 (making it probably one of the top three DOLLHOUSE episodes).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 7:01 AM

STINKINGROSE

I was on to Alan because of the thread where it was announced that he was going to be playing Alpha. It was nice to see a teensy bit more of his range as an actor. I'm becoming firmly convinced it's bottomless.

Happy to have seen the blindingly obvious, as well!

Who else caught the "Whiskey" reference?

I'd been pretty much convinced that the good doctor was a doll since about the second episode. She's too pretty, not to be a doctor.. just that she's on par with the other dolls in terms of hottiehood. Kind of a coincidence on that one. Plus, waste not want not.. if she's a damaged doll, why not get the most use out of her possible? Imprint her with whatever med school you please, tack on a nice fellowship at a reknowned clinic, and poof: in house excellence and you haven't wasted all that time. Also may be a renegotiation on her contract after unforseen and apparently unfixable damages.

I'm beginning to wonder who's NOT a doll at this point...

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 7:20 AM

CELLARDOOR

Quote:
Originally posted by stinkingrose:

I'd been pretty much convinced that the good doctor was a doll since about the second episode. She's too pretty, not to be a doctor.. just that she's on par with the other dolls in terms of hottiehood. Kind of a coincidence on that one. Plus, waste not want not.. if she's a damaged doll, why not get the most use out of her possible?

That's been my line of thinking too for a while; grossly disfiguring scars aside, she's stunningly gorgeous (too much so to just hide away as the doctor who never goes outdoors). So I agree that she probably was a doll (and may still be one in a sense), Alpha slashed her, and the Dollhouse is doing their best to make the most of the lost investment.

They may have even temporarily returned her original personality to ask her if she wanted to continue her involvement on a different level considering what happened and Dr. Saunders was born as we know her. The one timeline-ish thing I can't figure out is that Saunders most definitely recognized Alpha, and if she had been a doll at the time of his composite attack event, wouldn't she have been wiped if they imprinted her with a doctor afterwards? I guess Topher's good enough to imprint a memory of what Alpha looked like on top of any new personalities though. Just speculation, but I hope we do find out a little more!

As for "who is a doll?" I'm pretty sure that if we can believe the diagnosis offered by the Dollhouse in "Echoes," the only people we didn't see react as a doll or as a "regular employee" were Saunders and Ivy. I think last night's episode and the "Whiskey" mention make it clear why we didn't get to see Saunders, but I'm not sure how Ivy matters yet. I'm pretty sure Topher, Adelle, Dominic, and Boyd aren't dolls. Well, I don't think I can say I know much about Boyd at all, actually.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 9:00 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Okay, so what about this: Dr. Saunders was a real person working for the dollhouse, but was cut so badly in the Alpha attack that she died. But before she bled out, they managed an emergency mapping because she was trustworthy and valuable and they thought it best to keep her. Erase a few things, like the memory of her mapping and imminent death, change how she remembered her looks, and implant her into a doll who was also caught in the attack but not killed. Life after death.
It brings up the question, though, that I keep having about the imprinting process. How long does it last? Can you imprint someone and just leave them that way to live their life, or does it have to be refreshed? If the Dr. Saunders doll is being refreshed, wouldn't she know on some level she was a doll when she keeps waking up in the chair? I guess there are a few tangles in that theory, but i do think it likely that she is a doll, I'm just trying to work out the details.

As to the episode, I really loved it, mostly because of Alan. He's a fantastically talented actor and just a joy to watch no matter what he's doing, and especially when he's going from zero to badass like that, damn! Even though I knew it was coming, it played out beautifully. I was glad to see Ballard get beaten up by Boyd, Ballard was kind of annoying me, but really it was all about Alpha. Crazy, badass, sexy Alpha.
Want next episode now plzkthnx!!

[/sig]

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 9:15 AM

Ooh! I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who thought Alan looked sexy in this show!

When he first appeared after he changed into the doll's pajamas, I thought, "Doesn't Ballard realize that an agoraphobic pothead doesn't normal have arms like THAT???"

I love that Alan was cast in this role. I knew he'd be perfect because he's very talented and he's not the kind of guy who you would see this coming from. He's the kind of guy upon first impression you instantly want to buddy up to and play Halo. :P

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 9:18 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhyreLight:
Ooh! I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who thought Alan looked sexy in this show!

You just wanna take a bite out of him all over!

[/sig]

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 9:21 AM

Yeah, but only after you look past the whole lab-experiment-gone-psychotically-wrong thing.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 9:32 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Well... yeah

But Alan himself doesn't have that particular problem...

[/sig]

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 11:09 AM

LOL! Ooooohhhh, sooooo TRUE!!

I wouldn't mind playing Halo with him some time.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 1:14 PM

SAB39

My longshot theory: Ballard is a doll programmed not by the dollhouse, but by Alpha.

Oh and yes I caught the Whiskey thing.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 2:14 PM

SINGATE

Great episode. Alan really nailed the dual nature of the role. He reminded me off a more hyper, pothead version of Topher in the beginning. When he finally went Alpha it was brilliant stuff. Props to Amy Acker, she looked absolutely terrified during that sequence.

Okay, so I'm guessing he and Whiskey came into the dollhouse together. He has returned to rescue her not Echo. It looks like he will use Echo's body to download Whiskey's persona. It also looks as though he has been pulling both Dominic and Ballard's strings from the moment he escaped. In fact the only reason to bring Ballard along was so that he could use him as a diversion.

Speaking of Ballard why does he feel compelled to rescue Caroline but at the same time doesn't trust Mellie/November enough to rescue her? His "you'd kill me" line makes no sense. Echo could just as easily take him out if that is how she was programmed.

I'm saving this episode so that I can watch the final two back to back. I really think this will be the final episode, the series just isn't drawing enough of an audience to warrant a second season. Too bad.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 4:27 PM

BYTEMITE

I think Ballard's line to Millie is in regards to what she told him about being a sleeper agent and not to trust her. "With a flick of a switch you'd turn on me."

That programming may be something subconscious, so maybe it doesn't wipe?

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 9:14 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

What a superb episode.

So many answered question and yet so many more questions unanswered! Fantastic!

I'm a little disappointed that the news of Alan being Alpha was so readily available though, the show's punch wasn't there as a consequence (also I'd held out that Ballard was Alpha - guess I was way off on that one :D). However Alan was sublime, the Boyd/Ballard clash both with fists and ethics was great! More of that please.

As for Alan and Eliza... That was disturbing on so many levels but it's wonderful for the show, absolutely fantastic in fact.

I must admit though now I feel more than ever we're being played with as an audience. With so many folk being 'Dolls' I'm now suspicious of all whom we follow, even to the extent that DeWitt could be one? Just cannot trust anyone.

One question - are we suppose to believe Ballard is in love with Caroline? I'm not getting it at all but then I can't understand why else he'd leave Mellie/November behind for Caroline?

...What a numty!!!

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 5:33 AM

SAB39

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I must admit though now I feel more than ever we're being played with as an audience. With so many folk being 'Dolls' I'm now suspicious of all whom we follow, even to the extent that DeWitt could be one? Just cannot trust anyone.

One question - are we suppose to believe Ballard is in love with Caroline? I'm not getting it at all but then I can't understand why else he'd leave Mellie/November behind for Caroline?

Well that's because Alpha programmed him to be obsessed with Caroline...

(yep, that's my theory and I'm stickin to it)

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 6:14 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I woke up around 2am this morning and couldn't get back to sleep. As I was tossing and turning my thoughts turned to Dollhouse, and I got a weird notion about where the story may be heading. I hesitate to even mention it because I am sure I'm totally off base, at least I hope I am and Joss doesn't go there, because it is a truly sick notion. But if I don't mention it and it turns out to be at least close to the mark no one would believe me after the fact. Bear in mind I did not watch the preview of the next episode.

As "Briar Rose" was developing it seemed we would not be getting back to Susan's story, that perhaps it was just a metaphor for Caroline's situation. But why introduce that character but not have a resolution? I was wondering how that engagement came about, who would pay so much money for Echo to get close to an abused child and try to help her? What if Alpha, or at least one of the personalities with which he had been imprinted, is the man who abused her, and he wants her back? What if he is just using Echo to accomplish that goal? If that is the case, who else in the Dollhouse is helping him? Is it Topher or Dr. Saunders, or both, and why?

In any case, even though I have not been totally sold on Dollhouse I have watched all of the eps multiple times and appreciate the fact that it challenges the viewer to think for themselves, unlike so many other shows.

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 6:50 AM

SERGEANTX

So... it seemed obvious that Alan was acting like Toffer intentionally. The mannerisms, verbal and physical, were all there. Apparently that was to indicate that Toffer was part of Alpha's original "uberman" imprint. Did anyone else get that vibe? Just me?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 8:45 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
indicate that Toffer was part of Alpha's original "uberman" imprint.

You have to remember that Alpha wasn't an "uberman imprint" he was a composite event that created this crazy uberman. I think he was just drawing on his experience being around Topher as part of his cover acting, but I could be wrong.

[/sig]

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 8:52 AM

SERGEANTX

Hmm I thought I remember Boyd, or somebody, asking why they didn't give the dolls all kinds of awesome skills and Toffer replied that they did - with Alpha.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 9:01 AM